Centralized Thread for Suggestions to PCGS on Combating Counterfeiting Problem
messydesk
Posts: 20,367 ✭✭✭✭✭
Given the recent counterfeit slab reports (95-S Morgan, 45 Merc), it seems that one thing PCGS could do is flag serial numbers of known counterfeits in their cert verification by saying that counterfeits of the slab are known to exist and showing a photograph of the authentic coin, if available. If there are coins they haven't photographed, arrange to borrow the photos from Heritage or another source, and offer the owner of the real coin a refund on a reholdering. Upon reholdering, a new serial number would be assigned and the cert verification database would be changed to indicate that the old serial number is now only on counterfeits. Counterfeits knowingly or unknowingly submitted for reholdering would be returned with holders defaced.
It's more overhead on PCGS's part, but it would help keep their brand integrity and might also net a few bad guys in the process.
It's more overhead on PCGS's part, but it would help keep their brand integrity and might also net a few bad guys in the process.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
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I'm glad you asked this question.
As a corollary, what if a certified coin were stolen? I've been purchasing PCGS MS-63 key date Morgans on e-bay. I always verify the cert. # on PCGS before bidding. It may not be a counterfeited slab, but what if someone is selling stolen or lost goods? Does PCGS indicate so in the cert verifacation?
I think both the counterfeit suggestion as well as an indicator as to stolen property would be great information to know.
Cheers!
Kirk
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I feel that high quality images which can be easily and widely accessed by the public, can serve as a good and somewhat practical defense against counterfeiting. I would also suggest that chips be embedded inside the TPG holders and that they could be read by a low price hand held scanner and/or phone.
The major grading companies should share information and work together, both privately and publicly. And this includes some type of liaisons with Ebay, coin publications, the major auction houses and even authorized dealers, to help put the word out.
I understand and appreciate that there is a fine line between trying to address the problem vs. creating too much fear, and causing as much or more harm that way. However, this is already a terrible problem, which shows signs of getting much, much worse. And if things are allowed to continue, I believe that the hobby will suffer great and long lasting harm, on a widespread basis.
The problem with an online database is if one is at a show, looking at a coin, it's not readily accessible.
While it may not help, it makes me feel better to avoid Chinese products when possible. For example, I was looking at new sneakers recently at a national chain sporting goods store. The same ones were available with Made in China tags and Made in Vietnam tags. I bought the ones from Vietnam.
Wikisites are available, like Indian Cent wikispace and VAMworld. Anyone can upload to it.
<< <i>What makes this thread the official "centralized one?"
The problem with an online database is if one is at a show, looking at a coin, it's not readily accessible....
>>
Barry, that's why I mentioned a low cost hand-held scanner or phone to read the chips. And, nowhere in the thread title is the word "official" included.
but flagging numbers that have unusual activity (lots of hits recently) on their cert verification
<< <i>
I feel that high quality images which can be easily and widely accessed by the public, can serve as a good and somewhat practical defense against counterfeiting. I would also suggest that chips be embedded inside the TPG holders and that they could be read by a low price hand held scanner and/or phone.
>>
......I always thought this one (high quality photos of the coins) was a great idea......
......I collect old stuff......
Red flags flying might lesson the number of people trying to take part in auctions of the items.
Its obvious that the forgers are looking at pictures of coins and slabs on various sites as even the bar codes are becoming very accurate.
An idea I had which might help is if you were to make the serial code on slabs or ad additional serial codes using a type of invisible ink.
The number would only show up under a UV light. It would be almost impossible for fake slab makers to guess the numbers and they wouldn't be able to see them from a picture posted on the internet (for example Heritage). The only way they could put genuine numbers on slabs would be if they where told what the numbers, or purchased the original.
So only the person holding the genuine slab could place it under a UV light and check the number say 567-890-457 and then verify it on a PCGS registry type site. To make it extra safe. When you log on to check the code PCGS could ask you for the coins denomination and year (just so people couldn't sit and type in codes hoping to get lucky). If the number typed in didn't match PCGS site would tell you there was an error.
You could name this service something like "PCGS Secure Serial".If such a coin was sold by an auction
house like Heritage etc. all they would need to say would be something like "PCGS Secure Serial checked" without divulging the numbers
I'm not suggesting for a minute that any are being sold by the big auction houses. Most posted on these boards seem to be offered on ebay but what I'm wondering is where are the counterfeiters obtaining the images of the originals. I doubt they are buying the genuine ones to copy.
Under my plan. Whomever the seller is, whether it be an auction house, dealer or a collector would not have to divulge the security serial number when selling. They need only mention that they have checked it. The buyer then should run his own check once they receive the coin.
I think that PCGS should provide a pedigree statement
that the owner can have noterized stating that they where the ones that had the coin graded coupled with a photo data base
that can be accessed with a code on the pedigree papers.
The pedigree papers could also have counterfeit counter measures.
This idea could be refined as its just some place to start.
Pedigree is not new and works for other type of collectors and can add value.
A verification number that can be only seen when the holder is tilted or put under a black light so it doesnt show up in a photo and when entered into the cert verification page at pcgs will give the matching label cert number but not vica-versa.
<< <i>Maybe a type of watermark on or as part of the label, something like the treasury does with money.
A verification number that can be only seen when the holder is tilted or put under a black light so it doesnt show up in a photo and when entered into the cert verification page at pcgs will give the matching label cert number but not vica-versa. >>
As a purchaser of PCGS coins and only able to see the picture of it - not being able to verify the cert # before purchasing it - would deter me from bidding.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
In this situation, the label could have an IR-reflective substance on it, that would only be visible to digital cameras. When photographed, the IR from the substance would show brightly in the photo. A second cert #, different from the original, could be printed in this substance, so it, too could be verified via the online cert verification, but wouldn't be easily visible to the naked eye. Thus, the authenticity of a slab could only be completely verified from the photo if that's all that's available to a buyer.
Edited to add:
This could still be photoshopped, but depending on the complexity, could be made difficult to do and easy to authenticate in an image.
<< <i>PCGS and NGC need to redesign their slabs. This should include a harder to reproduce hologram and the insertion of an RFID chip into each one. They should also photograph every coin they slab with a declared value of over $100 and provide the picture when you go to verify the cert. >>
Excellent! The only thing I'd add is a 2-D barcode. If it's secure enough for USPS, it should work for PCGS.
Wikisites are available, like Indian Cent wikispace and VAMworld. Anyone can upload to it.
Ooops, sorry, I assumed the thread was what WE could do, not what PCGS could do.
<< <i>Ooops, sorry, I assumed the thread was what WE could do, not what PCGS could do. >>
Why not discuss both?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
strands . He could wear a toupee if he didn't like the idea of being basically bald headed .
Any slab that did not have Mr. Halls hair in it would then be a no-brain-er counterfeit .
What can WE do ... IMO ... maybe we need to be (get) vigilant and figure out a place to store and make accessible all known counterfit serial numbers for both PCGS and NGC, and all deceptive forgeries. Based on the early databases I designed and some of the ones I've seen done recently, I do not think it would be too hard to get a database up and runing that would be fairly easy to input and read from. Of course, if would require volunteers who were willing to keep it up to date and somehow to sponsor the hosting costs. The people allowed to input would have to be somewhat beyond reproach as we wouldn't want the database to be rendered useless by people playing games or jumping the gun. Additionally, as we input the data more and more we can also include pictures of known good coins in slabs, that are now otherwise found at places like Heritage or Teletrade.
A monumentus undertaking? Huge is an understatement.
What can the TPG's do ... IMO ... They need to help support us in the above ... and they need to produce different security sytems in their slabs. It will have to change again as soon as the counterfieters catch up. And then it will have to change again. Some good ideas (including UV-based coding) have been presented. RFID's could work.
What can the FBI/SS do ... IMO ... they should do something ... sting operations for US-based (at least) resellers of unmarked "replica's", tracking and prosecution of US-based (at elast) resellers of conterfeits. eBay can be considered complicit in the resellers market, and once that is established, they must share the burden of prosecution. Allowing a marketplace to exist for known forgeries is nearly as bad, or possibly worse than the forgery itself. I'm not a studied lawyer, but I would think certain pressures could be applied, and cases made.
Would that take eBay out of the coin market? It very well might ... and in the end, that might not be a bad thing. For decades this hobby survived on networks of people, and shops and shows and auction ... not on the internet. The internet makes the connection of people and shops and shows and auctions stronger, not weaker. The open and uncontrolled marketplace the internet creates makes it inherently more dangerous and subject to criminal elements.
Obviously, sometimes a seller will turely have no idea, because he/she bought a coin from a source they trusted, and then when they went to re-sell, the deciept was detected.
But this is a problem that already exists, and the only way we can make that less of a problem is to start ridding and outing the couterfiets now.
Just my rambling thoughts ...
EOM
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Frank Abagnale
to revamp the entire system
(Catch Me if you Can)
Frank Abagnale from Wiki
PCGS mistakenly posted diagnostics on counterfeit slabs a while back. This simply taught the counterfeitors how to make a better product. We have diagnostics we look for but we cannot publish them.
PCGS is actively involved with a number of law enforcement agencies, however we cannot discuss those actions as well lest we tip off the people we are going after.
You, on the other hand, can make this problem virtually disappear with a few very simple actions. I posted a blog on this topic after returning from the ANA - too good to be true ....
I am not going to repeat what I already wrote, but the bottom line is you need to use common sense. In summary if you follow these three guidelines you will avoid most problems: 1) only buy from reputable dealers or auction houses whose references you can check and who have an unconditional return policy and a lifetime guarantee of authenticity 2) don't meet someone at an obscure location and pay them cash for your coin, 3) recognize that there is no Santa Claus in Numismatics. If the deal is too good to be true it probably isn't.
Virtually every deal where someone gets ripped off by one of these scam artists is the buyers fault. Yes it hurts to hear it but when faced with the possibility of getting "a really great deal" many people forget the most basic measures of common sense.
Along the same lines, it may be possible that software could be developed to do the same thing without the coin in hand and without a device, simply by entering the URL of an image into an interface on the PCGS website. This, obviously, would not be as reliable as doing things with the coin in hand. But it might be good enough to be very helpful.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Some might mistake what you said as being a really callous, jaded, self-serving, & cynical way to look at it and certainly NOT what buyers of your product or shareholders want to hear as the official PCGS position.
What about people placing a good faith (near market value) bid on an eBay auction from a seller with decent feedback that contains a coin in a counterfeit slab that is a genuine coin but in a fake slab with an artificially inflated grade AND whose cert number matches the correct grade in your database?
Perhaps instead of putting "VITUALLY ALL THE BLAME" on buyers PCGS would develop an online imaging system that would image every coin it grades - including in its slab - AND develop something akin to facial recognition software that would allow someone to instantaneously submit their image for comparision via the web to the image stored in your database to receive a probability of a match.
Let's face the facts. Whatever PCGS has done, is doing, might be doing (in the future) - & I applaud ANY effort made AT ALL, it's CLEARLY not enough yet (& never will be until there is a fool proof way the consumer can be EXTREMELY CONFIDENT - and isn't the crisis of confidence the real problem??? - the slab is real).
Frankly, I'm astounded that the commitment to image EVERY coin - including in its slab - has not yet become official policy & SOP.
On one hand, what you say is true. On the other hand, you're doing a disservice to your consumers by keeping them (us) from knowing how to recognize a counterfeit.
<< <i>Don said: PCGS mistakenly posted diagnostics on counterfeit slabs a while back. This simply taught the counterfeitors how to make a better product. We have diagnostics we look for but we cannot publish them.
On one hand, what you say is true. On the other hand, you're doing a disservice to your consumers by keeping them (us) from knowing how to recognize a counterfeit. >>
The grading companies are in a very difficult position in that matter. Perhaps there is a way to let (at least) many collectors know about it in a more private fashion.
What I very clearly meant by that is if buyers simply use common sense they can avoid being ripped off by counterfeits. The same common sense that tells them not to buy a Rolex watch or Gucci purse on the street corner.
PCGS is not at all callous about the issue. We devote a lot of energy to combating these crooks, we just can't talk about ongoing investigations.
On a personal level, at the ANA I had to tell someone to their face that they were ripped off. It's a painful process and I felt terrible. But what was the guy thinking buying an expensive coin off of Craigslist for cash..... Do yourselves a favor - follow the three rules I laid out.
<< <i>I must agree with Don. Caveat Emptor has, and is, the rule. I have no doubt the TPG's are aware of, concerned, and addressing the issue. We must all understand, however, that there will NEVER be an end to counterfeiting attempts, nor will there be foolproof devices developed to prevent counterfeiting. It is still being done with money, art, antiques and other collectibles. All that can be done is stop gap measures on known issues. New ones will appear. It is the duty of ALL involved to fight the issue. Cheers, RickO >>
Well said Rick!!
What about collector to collector sales? Both collectors believe the coin and holder is genuine but the sale hasn't past through a dealer or an auction house. A lot of coins are sold on BST for example. You could argue that the new buyer should take his purchase to a reputable dealer to get it checked out but how many people actually do that?
In my book PCGS equates to trust, safety and security. People use and buy PCGS because they trust what is stated on the holder, that the item contained within is genuine and when the time comes to sell the next buyer will believe the same. If a counterfeiting gets that good that it becomes very hard for Joe Bloggs to be able to buy a PCGS graded coin without doubting its authenticity then that will be a bad day.
I truly believe that PCGS will be doing their best to stay one step a head and hopefully they will continue to do so.
The micro chip ideas good as well but in essence it would mean we would all need to have a chip reading device at home and placing a chip in each holder would be costly for PCGS.
But we should all remain active and report any suspected counterfeit to PCGS, ebay and as Rick says possibly build up a counterfeit database but as Mr Willis also pointed out its important not to tell the counterfeiters where they went wrong.
I wonder .............the chip itself would cost very little, and embedding it in the slab would be a simple matter - IMO
He is correct in his assessment of whose fault it was. It is obviously the buyer’s fault- for buying a coin he believed was genuine -just because it was in a PCGS holder that looked good. I can tell you from experience; you should NEVER buy any slabbed coin without sending it to the Service for re-verification before purchasing it. Just checking out their Cert. #’s on line beforehand was a useless/wasted effort.
Check out the story of my resent experience at:
http://ikegroup.sslpowered.com/ikegroup.org/phpBB-3.0.2/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1203&sid=892bfae2e60f4eddf0052eaff2a2a40d
Thanks, Bill www.ikegroup.org-Forum-Beware Counterfeit Slabs
Life is like a coin that you can spend anyway you wish,... but which.... can only be spent once.
<< <i>placing a chip in each holder would be costly for PCGS. >>
RFID technology is dirt-cheap these days (ironically, thanks to the Chinese).
Bill
Life is like a coin that you can spend anyway you wish,... but which.... can only be spent once.
That's been what I've been advocating all along (along with a program akin to facial recognition to compare your image to the one in their database).