I hate coin doctors too. I truly appreciate Laura and TDN's efforts. I just think the problem may not be as black and white as most collectors might think. It is for this reason, the shades of gray make this an issue that knows no boundaries and we all have a responsibility to do what we can
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Since Laura is so afraid to post the coin docs names let someone else do it. There are a lot of people that are judgement proof and those that do not have 2 nickels to rub together. Let them name the names. Why are the dealers so afraid of the docs? I really doubt that the so called docs are going to file lawsuits against every dealer that names them. If you know they doctor coins how would they win a lawsuit and how could it be that expensive to name them? I do think it was a little bit funny as i was reading the list of people that contribute info to the readbook and see some "alleged names" there.
I have been reading about coin docs for years, nothing really has changed and PCGS is only going against a few so far. I want to see some action. So far the only one with balls is a woman.
Lets start a legal fund for Laura so she can name the names. There are a lot of laywers looking for work now so maybe she could get a discount.
The problem is twofold. 1) Many individuals make quite a bit of money by doctoring coins, and this newly created wealth is shared with others. 2) The nature of the civil legal system encourages litigation, which is expensive. You can sue a ham sandwich if you choose to do so and have the funds.
For Laura, or anyone else, to sue individuals for doctoring coins, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove that this doctoring did occur, parties were actually damaged, contracts violated, etc. etc. For Laura, or anyone else on their own to do this, substantial funds must be dedicated to the task. Plaintiff must be sure he / she can prevail, or else in addition to risk losing the suit, a defamation suit will follow from the successful defendant(s). This can put a plaintiff out of business.
Equally important, the defendant(s) must have adequate funds to pay damages ajudicated in the court proceeding. Some nefariouis people in business are practically speaking, judgement proof. For someone used to scamming the system, it isn't difficult to routinely put assets in the names of other businesses, and operate, in effect, a shell entity. "Peeling that onion" is even more expensive, and at times, it doesn't pencil out.
This is why, imo, an entity the size of PCGS is going after specific people as "coin doctors" under limited circumstances. To reiterate, I don't think an individual, or group of dealers, has deep enough pockets to do this.
An addendum: As someone else said, don't think for a minute that coin doctors are only going after top end coins. I've seen a number of coins in the $1,000 to $2,500 range which imo were AT'd, and got into first world holders, in addition to more expensive counterparts.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I am not going to directly blast or praise her blustering but I will call it what it is. Irrelevant. This post and and her previous public rants have never been a legitimate fight, nor call-to-arms.
In my twenty+ years in the network security field it was a daily event for security corporations to post press releases and blog posts that hyped "the problem" and their expertise as the "cure". Save a few highly technical resources each and every one of those PR and blog posts served one purpose: to generate business for posters company.
Additionally I will argue that Laura and her ilk who continue to lambaste virtually everyone in the industry apart from themselves are doing absolutely nothing that generates new interest in the hobby. Indeed, it actively scares people away from getting involved. Whats worse it scares away those young and new to the hobby who would be the least likely to purchase a doctored coin in the first place.
Here is my call-to-arms: Laura (and Legend), put your own reputation on the line and name some names along with some proof or stop wasting everyone's time with blog posts which are but thinly veiled sales tactics for the type of coins you market. >>
PCGS was specific in the names they mentioned in their lawsuit.....
Maybe an aftermath of the outcome of the PCGS lawsuit is that indeed more names will be named.
I think what Laura is mainly saying is since that lawsuit began organizations like PNG and ANA could be doing alot more to clean up their ranks........or at least come out with some policy to protect the collector.
This kind of fraud has hurt alot of collectors including yours truly.....
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
coinguy1, I will be completely transparent here. I have no economic stake in Legend either.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
Laura is in the right on this one... and the "airing of laundry" is a bogus way of simply trying to keep the status quo while making it seem like "it will get handled internally."
If these same people who dislike the "airing of laundry" would have the same depth of feeling about deceiving the collecting public, then there would be no laundry to air. But, we do have laundry, and part of the reason is that hush-hush approach. It simply provides a cool dark place for it to continue on.
Hmmmm...... can't help but think that Laura was saying she had these want lists and her market segment was looking up.... and maybe that has something to do with trust and knowing someone is looking out for doctored coins. I know if she'd stoop to lower end franklins, walkers, peace then she'd definitely and absolutely have my want list despite the typos, punctuation problems and grammatical mistakes.
Laura, if you're listening, I'll pledge $100 towards each $1,000 you put up.
These guys are a cancer for sure that need to be stopped.
Original named doctors are: "Al Rossman, Eric Steinberg*, Rick Wesslink, Silvano DiGenova (I never liked this lowlife!), Greg Krill, Robert Lehmann, & Does 1-10"
* looks like Steinberg is out in the 2nd amended petition LINK but no new doe names have been named as of yet.
fyi: if you're afraid to name names for fear of being sued (or for whatever other reason(s)) send them to me & I'll be happy to do it. You really need to go all the way on this one & not pull punches. C'mon. Step up.
THIS ARTICLE SOLEY EXPRESSES THE OPINIONS OF ITS AUTHOR AND NOT LEGEND NUMISMATICS OR ANY RELATED PARTIES.
WHAT WILL IT REALLY TAKE TO MAKE DEALERS CARE?
In my opinion, it seems hell has to freeze over or the market to end due to shoddy coins from the lack of real self policing.
Almost two months into the PCGS Lawsuit and all I hear from other dealers is disgust. Not disgust the right way. Many are sympathetic to the conspirators and feel PCGS is the bad guy. The PNG thinks I am just making noise for publictiy about them, yet they are hiding behind an internal wall of silence. At the ANA Show, I witnessed no changes, no dealers were scared, nothing. Sure, the coin docting issue was a topic, but no dealers cared to step forward and say stop. More complained about "airing laundry" then helping. What a bunch of BS. As far as I am concerned, there is s still a horribly disgusting mentality among most wholesale dealers that they have a right to ruin coins for profit. And my fellow retailers need to get over the fact its ok to look the other way-it is not.
Well, I lump all of them (Non and PNG dealers) in to a "deadwood" catagory. ANY retail dealer who does nothing about this gets lumped in too. I predict within a year, unless the PNG really moves on his issue, they will be done as an organziation. I also predict you won't see many of your favorite dealers doing much business as they will be out of business.
I am tired of pointing out how the PNG has been slow to react and has done little enforcement on coin doctoring. However, my new favorite routine is when they now say, since a doctor is not one of our members, why should we chase them? How would they like it if no one attended their PNG days? I think the public is starting to be fed up and will send them a message.
Are there ANY dealers, ANY at all with ANY shred of decency or ehtics? I am blown away how at the ANA show all the bright young dealers are doing nothing but crackouts and a few are even becoming coin docs. This is NOT the way to go. Why isn't the PNG teaching or demanding strict ehtics from ALL dealers?
How can ANY retail dealer not put pressure on a coin doctor? I find it hard to believe that save for a small handful of dealers I know of-Doug Winter, Al Pinkall, Bill Shamhart, John Albanese are the ONLY ones speaking out with any sincerity. Few others have been PUBLICALLY attacking the coins doctoring situation. Why? I guess its hard when your joined at the hip to a "crackout dealer" or coin doctor (or are related). If your town had posion in its drinking water, wouldn't you join any legit cause to rid the problem? ALL other retail dealers should be ashamed of themselves. I so tempted to name names.
Ask your dealer what they are doing about this situation? If they say little or nothing, deal with someone who does! We need MORE pressure put on the bad guys! Dealers should be the direct warriors againts their own gone astry peers.
I WILL PAY TO SEE THE COIN DOCTORS CAUGHT AND PUNISHED-I'M PUTTING OUT A CONTRACT!
I have made a good living buying and selling coins. My passion is deep and I can not stand to see any negatives hurting the hobby. I am a collector first, dealer second. It is my strong personal opinion, coin doctors should not be allowed to walk a bourse floor or make a living by destroying precious rarities.
Since I am NOT a member of the PNG nor plan on becoming on-but have been so highly critical of their lack of action, I will propose this unlikley motivation for them:
I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permenatley expells from their membership. If anyone wants to join me in creating a bigger fund, please email me. This is NOT a gimmick or PR move. I am desperate for these guys to do something NOW.
I'd LOVE to see them convict 25 of the top dealers who are coin doctors. It would mean so much to the hobby.
THE FIGHT GOES ON
Some VERY interesting and mindblowing things will be reveald shortly from the PCGS lawsuit. Some of it will be shocking i am told. Dealers have to wake up NOW.
Again, my main issue is the dealers attitudes. Sure, PCGS and NGC are paid to detect doctoring, BUT (the big BUT), its the dealers who are the criminals in that they try to defraud the grading services by altering the coins. The amount of dealers who think PCGS is wrong just amazes me. Only after they read their contract with them do they say an "oh". We need to work harder-especially the PNG to change dealers greedy attitudes. The ANA and ALL numismatic publications need to push harder too.
I do not want to leave a good show like the ANA feeling "dirty" again. I am hoping by this time next year, a dozen or so docs and ruthless "crackout" dealers (mini docs-putting, haze, etc) are gone. If we do not put more pressure on these guys now, we'll have multiples more coins ruined by this time next year. I am sick of looking at ruined and overgraded coins!
All comments are welcome. Please email me:lsperber1@hotmail.com. I would love to hear what you are doing about the coin doctoring situation. Also, I'll post any good comments."
<< <i>coinguy1, I will be completely transparent here. I have no economic stake in Legend either.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it. >>
I think who is a partner and who is not a partner of CAC or their financial interests in whatever is totally irrevelant to a discussion on how to stop coin doctoring.........PCGS got serious about it with their lawsuit and named names.......so Laura chooses to blog about it, so what? Now is the time to blog about it .......and hopefully get some momentum going among other professional dealers and numismatic organizations to do something about it while this lawsuit is going.
The fact of the matter is ordinary everyday collectors are being burned by buying coins in slabs or otherwise that have been doctored. To do what ever it takes to stop coin doctoring done for the purpose of fraud is the main discussion here not who is part of CAC or what financial interests someone may or may not have.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>coinguy1, I will be completely transparent here. I have no economic stake in Legend either.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it. >>
Whoever sent you that message is either misinformed or untruthful.
I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation.
If you look at the history of hobby enforcement you see a people who take it upon themselves to bring a problem to the forefront and attempt to fix a problem, sometimes they create problems in doing so. Take Virgil Hancöck back in the 1970's. He took a very similar stance that Laura takes today. Zero tolerance and calls for aggressive enforcement. I think the issue may have even catapulted him to be elected ANA president. He took on counterfeiters and coin doctors non-stop. How could you argue with such an admirable stance such as hobby protection? You can't.
Similarly, you can't argue that Laura's willingness to go after coin doctors agressively is something that shouldn't be done. Apathy is dangerous here. Do nothing and the problem will certainly continue.
But let's go back and look at the history. Hancöck's pushing created ANACS to fight counterfeits. A very positive step. Hancöck's fight against coin doctors didn't turn out as well, as seen by the ANA losing the legal battle posted earlier. It seems he found that at some point aggressive attacking of members of the business you are trying to clean up creates an unhealthy atmosphere in which you can't promote numismatics in a positive fashion.
Later when ANACS started grading they tried to eliminate whizzed, cleaned and otherwise doctored coins by labeling them on their certificate. However those certificates were just thrown away. Today, as then, there were many mail-order dealers who would buy coins, specifying that "cleaned coins will be returned at owners expense" which gave them a sense of respectability to the public. But if you bought from them, would got cleaned and whizzed coins. They made a fortune and nobody could stop them. Some still do that today.
In the 1990's together with a few other dealers, I started a thing called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was meant to stop these whizzing factories by highlighting the one who sell wholesome coins. It was a good start at addressing the problem in a positive manner, but it was geared towards raw coin sellers because everyone thought that a slab made the coin OK. It failed after awhile because it didn't get the large support it needed to be successful. Many dealers called it "Na Na na na Na", in a tattle-tale sort of fashion.
Then, in 1996, in an effort to distance the properly graded coins in my field, from the "Dreck", which included overgraded, doctored and otherwise problem coins in certified holders, we started Photo Seal. Again, I wanted to take a positive stance rather than call all the rejected coins BAD, I called the others GOOD. It was a good enough idea for CAC to copy it over 10 years later. I think it helped Indian cents and the market in them tremendously.
PCGS and NGC are and should be the hobby leaders in the fight against coin doctors and must be at the forefront of the battle. Partly because they are the ones being harmed if the coins get graded and later bought back, but also because they have the power to enforce who gets coins graded. By extracting retribution from coin dealers who submit coins from coin doctors (even ones who are their biggest submitters), and instilling the fear of god in those submitters, then they can put the coin doctors out of business.
You (and Laura) can do your part to help fight coin doctoring by telling PCGS and NGC who is submitting doctored coins. Telling us (or you), does little help because that only protects us (or you). The whole hobby should be protected and PCGS and NGC are the ones who need to do that.
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they?
When doctors can't find a market for their products then they will look elsewhere to do their craft. They won't go away, but maybe some will go into, say...Tiffany Glass.
The one thing that history has proven to us, be it in Salem in 1692, Washington DC in the 1950's, Virgil Hancöck in the 1970's or the CU message boards today, is that going after the individuals rather than the market only drives them underground. You can't stop anyone from doing anything to a coin. But if you take away the profit motive, you may protect the hobby.
Excellent point Rick. Much the same as I pointed out earlier in this thread - take away profit, you take away the problem. One individual with a serious lack of reading comprehension attempted to say I was condoning fraud. Anyone with an iota of intelligence could read the post and see I did no such thing. Thank you for your input, you do command much more influence than I do. We must eliminate the emotion and seek realistic avenues to reduce and possibly eliminate this problem. Your statement "When doctors can't find a market for their products then they will look elsewhere to do their craft. They won't go away, but maybe some will go into, say...Tiffany Glass." is 100% accurate. Educate collectors, have TPG's continue to enforce the policing of doctored coins, and remove the premiums attached to colorised coins. Those are but a few ways to logically and realistically address the issue. I applaud those who will move beyond the bluster and directly attack the problem. Cheers, RickO
Well said EagleEye. But I also think that the industry needs to police itself. In that regard, the ANA and PNG are best suited to do this and need to do more. The fact that NANA failed doesn't mean it was a bad idea. In fact, it sounds like a good idea to me because it was an attempt at improving the industry. If the ANA and/or PNG takes a stand and establishes doctoring rules and definitions, and then starts to expel those who violate the rules, then that makes them more valuable to the industry and to collectors. Then, ANA/PNG membership means more and increases the confidence level of everyone in the hobby. I think that has been part of Laura Sperber's point and it's a good one. Right now, I don't deal with ANA and or PNG dealers because they are part of those organizations. I deal with a particular dealer because I like/trust the dealer or I like his/her coins. The fact that a dealer is an ANA member adds something to the equation but not much. The ANA does have ethics rules and an enforcement mechanism if you have a problem with an unethical member or dealer but it hasn't done much to address coin doctoring. PNG membership doesn't seem to add anything to a dealers resume to me. But if these organizations stepped up on behalf of their members, now that would be something.
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>If you look at the history of hobby enforcement you see a people who take it upon themselves to bring a problem to the forefront and attempt to fix a problem, sometimes they create problems in doing so. Take Virgil Hancöck back in the 1970's. He took a very similar stance that Laura takes today. Zero tolerance and calls for aggressive enforcement. I think the issue may have even catapulted him to be elected ANA president. He took on counterfeiters and coin doctors non-stop. How could you argue with such an admirable stance such as hobby protection? You can't.
Similarly, you can't argue that Laura's willingness to go after coin doctors agressively is something that shouldn't be done. Apathy is dangerous here. Do nothing and the problem will certainly continue.
But let's go back and look at the history. Hancöck's pushing created ANACS to fight counterfeits. A very positive step. Hancöck's fight against coin doctors didn't turn out as well, as seen by the ANA losing the legal battle posted earlier. It seems he found that at some point aggressive attacking of members of the business you are trying to clean up creates an unhealthy atmosphere in which you can't promote numismatics in a positive fashion.
Later when ANACS started grading they tried to eliminate whizzed, cleaned and otherwise doctored coins by labeling them on their certificate. However those certificates were just thrown away. Today, as then, there were many mail-order dealers who would buy coins, specifying that "cleaned coins will be returned at owners expense" which gave them a sense of respectability to the public. But if you bought from them, would got cleaned and whizzed coins. They made a fortune and nobody could stop them. Some still do that today.
In the 1990's together with a few other dealers, I started a thing called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was meant to stop these whizzing factories by highlighting the one who sell wholesome coins. It was a good start at addressing the problem in a positive manner, but it was geared towards raw coin sellers because everyone thought that a slab made the coin OK. It failed after awhile because it didn't get the large support it needed to be successful. Many dealers called it "Na Na na na Na", in a tattle-tale sort of fashion.
Then, in 1996, in an effort to distance the properly graded coins in my field, from the "Dreck", which included overgraded, doctored and otherwise problem coins in certified holders, we started Photo Seal. Again, I wanted to take a positive stance rather than call all the rejected coins BAD, I called the others GOOD. It was a good enough idea for CAC to copy it over 10 years later. I think it helped Indian cents and the market in them tremendously.
PCGS and NGC are and should be the hobby leaders in the fight against coin doctors and must be at the forefront of the battle. Partly because they are the ones being harmed if the coins get graded and later bought back, but also because they have the power to enforce who gets coins graded. By extracting retribution from coin dealers who submit coins from coin doctors (even ones who are their biggest submitters), and instilling the fear of god in those submitters, then they can put the coin doctors out of business.
You (and Laura) can do your part to help fight coin doctoring by telling PCGS and NGC who is submitting doctored coins. Telling us (or you), does little help because that only protects us (or you). The whole hobby should be protected and PCGS and NGC are the ones who need to do that.
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they?
When doctors can't find a market for their products then they will look elsewhere to do their craft. They won't go away, but maybe some will go into, say...Tiffany Glass.
The one thing that history has proven to us, be it in Salem in 1692, Washington DC in the 1950's, Virgil Hancöck in the 1970's or the CU message boards today, is that going after the individuals rather than the market only drives them underground. You can't stop anyone from doing anything to a coin. But if you take away the profit motive, you may protect the hobby. >>
Well stated.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Please take this opportunity to explain what you are doing to address an obvious problem other than to say what others are doing is not enough or in the interest of self promotion
FTR, Laura would likely would not remember meeting me years ago at a show and I have never met TDN.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese'ss/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring. >>
Thank you for checking with me as you did, rather than assuming that what you had heard was correct.
On the rest, I guess we will have to disagree, at least in part. I think that Laura's public stance against coin doctoring goes well beyond self promotion and can help lead to progress/positive results. And I feel that the situation is much more likely to be addressed, if it is discussed publicly, rather than privately. That said, perhaps I would feel the same way you do, if I hadn't talked to Laura, over a long period of time, instead of knowing her, based only upon her posts here and her website blogs.
I think that Laura's public stance against coin doctoring goes well beyond self promotion and can help lead to progress/positive results. And I feel that the situation is much more likely to be addressed, if it is discussed publicly, rather than privately.
I don't know her, but I have to say I agree with this. That she is also self-promoting is OK by me. And it's working. The next show I go to I plan on stopping by Legend's table to thank her....then I'm going to look at her coins.
"You (and Laura) can do your part to help fight coin doctoring by telling PCGS and NGC who is submitting doctored coins. Telling us (or you), does little help because that only protects us (or you). The whole hobby should be protected and PCGS and NGC are the ones who need to do that.
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they? "
.......'dem words are very well spoken and I'm taking them to the bank
For those posters who think they have Laura all figured out...
First off, you SHOULD know better... no one has any woman all figured out... including the woman herself
Here is a challenge, of sorts... if you really think she is simply self promoting and/or just raising dust and blowing hot air... next chance you have... go take a look at Legend's coins... then go around the bourse and see for yourself... does Legend carry real nice for the grade material? How about most of the other dealers... how do their coins stack up?
I already know what you will find...
I will be generous and say that at least 80% of the coins on display at any show are either ho-hum or so-so or yuck... there are just not that many "special" coins to be found... but heck, that's what makes them special... right?
Ever try to sell a special coin? How about a ho-hum or so-so or yuck coin? Did you notice the palpable difference in the experiences?
and FTR ... here in NJ what a person thinks is not nearly as important as what they do... and another person's opinion of our opinion means little... we speak our mind and most of the time we just don't worry about ruffling feathers
So what if she is self promoting (along with doing the right thing) ... don't all successful business people promote themselves to some degree?
I do not know her well... only met her once and spoke with her briefly... but from that I can safely say that Laura has Zechel... go ahead and look it up... Zechel, Integrity and a good dose of Chutzpah... and in my mind, that is a good thing...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring. >>
Sorry, I'm not as nice nor as diplomatic as Mark. I think you've got a lot of balls to be calling me out here - when you haven't done chit yourself. Quit making so many assumptions - you obviously know very little about what really goes on in this industry and how long Laura has been railing against it - even when it was to her serious financial disadvantage. Do some research.
As far as reading comprehension goes - perhaps someone would care to explain the sentence that I quoted and said ROTFLMAO. I think it was fairly self evident that you stated you could either agree with Laura or disagree if you thought logically and rationally. My fraud example was perfectly clear and right on the nose - still waiting for you to refute it. Or perhaps at least state that one can be thinking logically and rationally and also agree with Laura. Perhaps if you had said 4 camps - those who emotionally agree with her because it's coin doctors involved, those who emotionally disagree with her cuz it's Laura, those who think logically and rationally and agree with her and those who do the same and don't. To infer two camps is to denigrate her supporters
<< <i>My fraud example was perfectly clear and right on the nose - still waiting for you to refute it. Or perhaps at least state that one can be thinking logically and rationally and also agree with Laura. >>
We heard your "fraud example." The trouble with it is, it's too broad. For example, supposing I fail to disclose that my coin was doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...by NCS, is that deceiving the public? If it is, then tell us one, good reason NCS isn't at the top of the list of the defendants in this lawsuit? If it isn't, and I doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...the coin, having used the same, exact techniques NCS employs, why should I have to disclose? That'd be discriminatory.
You can make your "fraud example" more specific. You can start by defining "coin doc" more objectively than the traditional definition, namely, anybody who isn't somebody's palsy-walsy. As your "fraud example" stands, it's simply too broad, and, as such, irrefutable, ab initio. IMHO...
Disclosing names of coin doctors won't do a damned thing to stop the alteration of coins. Anyone named will have no problem continuing their business afterward. And the lawsuits that could result if names are disclosed by ANA, PNG, Legend, etc will not come close to justifying a few thousand dollars to the YN fund.
I was sent this message by Don Willis: "It seems to me that you are only interested in picking a fight with TDN. If you haven't anything constructive to contribute then stay of the boards."
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
If Laura has so much guts, why doesn't SHE name the the coin doctors as she's demanding others do? Instead of offering $1,000 per name (pure grandstanding), she ought to offer pay all attorney fees when the organization that expels the docs gets their butts sued off for slander/defamation of character, etc. Would she make such an offer? No.
I am a Laura fan. In case you did not read clearly what she wrote, she said: I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permenatley expells from their membership.
How is that asking for names or grandstanding? Seems to me to be a legit call for action.
By extracting retribution from coin dealers who submit coins from coin doctors (even ones who are their biggest submitters), and instilling the fear of god in those submitters, then they can put the coin doctors out of business.
I hope people realize the point here.
In talking to people at the show about coin doctoring, I found out that some of the people named in the complaint are not coin doctors themselves, but dealers who submitted coins for coin doctors. When confronted with the facts they refused to make PCGS whole, so they suffer the consequences.
I think most coin doctors are not submitters to PCGS and NGC directly. They know that they are doing harm and try to shield themselves from direct confrontation with the grading services. So, they use others to submit coins for them.
We can all do our part by not accepting submissions from anyone for our own orders to PCGS and NGC. Ever since the collectors club started there is no good reason for dealers to submit coins for anyone to PCGS and NGC unless they are your own coins. Sure we pre-screen coins and save the customer money by pre-rejecting problem coins, but the consequences of retribution is too great for the service rendered.
"We heard your "fraud example." The trouble with it is, it's too broad. For example, supposing I fail to disclose that my coin was doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...by NCS, is that deceiving the public? If it is, then tell us one, good reason NCS isn't at the top of the list of the defendants in this lawsuit? If it isn't, and I doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...the coin, having used the same, exact techniques NCS employs, why should I have to disclose? That'd be discriminatory."
Guess 'cause they try to fix existing problems (NOT try to artificially add or tool or whatever) AND slab it AND note what was done on the slab insert.
"In talking to people at the show about coin doctoring, I found out that some of the people named in the complaint are not coin doctors themselves, but dealers who submitted coins for coin doctors. When confronted with the facts they refused to make PCGS whole, so they suffer the consequences."
Guess the WHOLE point here Rick is whether (a) they KNEW the coins they submitted on behalf of the true doctors were in fact doctored and were complicit in the whole criminal enterprise or (b) merely innocent dupes. I'd heavily wager on the former (i.e. choice (a)) being true as opposed to the latter if they're still named defendants in the PCGS lawsuit.
I was sent this message by Don Willis: "It seems to me that you are only interested in picking a fight with TDN. If you haven't anything constructive to contribute then stay of the boards."
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
Thanks Don. The rat pack needs to be put on notice.
<< <i>I was sent this message by Don Willis: "It seems to me that you are only interested in picking a fight with TDN. If you haven't anything constructive to contribute then stay of the boards."
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
Thanks Don. The rat pack needs to be put on notice. >>
There is no rat pack, just people who have emotions running high like yours.
Why name names when they are nearly all well-known to the upper end dealership in the hobby? Dealers talk to each other at every major show and I have no doubts most of the major dealers know who the alleged doctors are.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
I can tell you why no one will name names. Because they'll get sued. It's not against the law to dip or color coins. Sure its unethical, won't dispute that but if I, John, say you, Mr. Doctor are destroying the industry, and I damage your reputation and business you likely have good cause to sue me.
I would love a thread titled doctored coins put up before large auctions. To me that is better than naming names. Any chance of that happening?
I would say the majority of coin collectors have never been to this site, how are they going to be protected? This site attracts the more knowlegeable collector to start with.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Wow....I take a break from coins for a couple years and I see that nothing changes.
I believe coin doctors are the scum of the earth and very detrimental to both the hobby and industry as much as the next guy, however the simple fact still remains that no one in the industry or any outside entity will ever put an effective stop to it, or even make a meaningful dent IMO. Even if somehow a group or entity inside the industry were able to put a half dozen or so of the worse offenders (the kingpins) out of commission permanently which seems unlikely, there are still plenty of others IMO ready to take up the slack and still others up and coming.
Let's take the high end luxury watch market for example........high profile brands like Rolex, Patek, Breitling, Cartier, etc. Counterfeiting high end watches is now so widespread and out of control that even the well financed, high powered legal teams representing many of the worlds top brands cannot even put a tiny dent in the billion dollar counterfeit trade which originates primarily from Asia. In fact some of the better quality recent counterfeits/fakes/knock offs have gotten so good they can be very hard to discern from the genuine article from the outside even by an experienced eye using a strong loupe. Rolex produces about 750,000 to 1,000,000 watches per year, and many estimate that counterfeits out number the real ones worldwide by a factor of 10 annually! As with any other industry where high value prestigious brand names or high value collectibles are concerned there will ALWAYS be those who seek to profit by deception whether it be faking Louis Vuitton bags or doctoring bust dollars and Saints, it's just a fact of life that will NOT go away.
I'd actually go so far to say that high profile individuals or entities in the coin biz who constantly draw attention to this problem may be doing more harm than good, as IMO they serve to scare both new and otherwise inexperienced collectors/investors to the ugly realities of coin doctoring as well as force the coin doctor element to devise new methods to apply their trade. As always, your best defense is gaining knowledge over time and/or only dealing with those dealers you trust and will stand behind their products.
You can either draw attention tothe problem and try and rid the coin world of its scum, or do nothing and let the coin world die a slow death. Dragon, why do you think many of your coins have not gone up? Have any turned colors?
Laura did the right thing by standing up and speaking out. Trying to get others invloved is not harmful. Only on this forum do people try and change the top and infuse spite. Its better someone reads there is this problem then to find out the hard way.
I for one am not dimissing the coin doctoring in our own industry.But there is a point to made that it is well known about the counterfeits that are made abroad.If in fact that our coins are doctored as well from these sources than there is no end to the supply of coins that come from this illegal trade.It is up to each individual collector who comes across a coin of such nature to pass on a sale of such coin...JMHO....!!!
<< <i>Why name names when they are nearly all well-known to the upper end dealership in the hobby? Dealers talk to each other at every major show and I have no doubts most of the major dealers know who the alleged doctors are.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
roadrunner >>
That was my point. Please bring to attention of DaveE, who seems to be having trouble grasping this point.
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity.
<< <i>Why name names when they are nearly all well-known to the upper end dealership in the hobby? Dealers talk to each other at every major show and I have no doubts most of the major dealers know who the alleged doctors are.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
roadrunner >>
That was my point. Please bring to attention of DaveE, who seems to be having trouble grasping this point. >>
Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense.
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity. >>
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity. >>
He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>>
Comments
I hate coin doctors too. I truly appreciate Laura and TDN's efforts. I just think the problem may not be as black and white as most collectors might think. It is for this reason, the shades of gray make this an issue that knows no boundaries and we all have a responsibility to do what we can
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I have been reading about coin docs for years, nothing really has changed and PCGS is only going against a few so far. I want to see some action. So far the only one with balls is a woman.
Lets start a legal fund for Laura so she can name the names. There are a lot of laywers looking for work now so maybe she could get a discount.
The problem is twofold.
1) Many individuals make quite a bit of money by doctoring coins, and this newly created wealth is shared with others.
2) The nature of the civil legal system encourages litigation, which is expensive. You can sue a ham sandwich if you choose to do so and have the funds.
For Laura, or anyone else, to sue individuals for doctoring coins, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove that this doctoring did occur, parties were actually damaged, contracts violated, etc. etc. For Laura, or anyone else on their own to do this, substantial funds must be dedicated to the task. Plaintiff must be sure he / she can prevail, or else in addition to risk losing the suit, a defamation suit will follow from the successful defendant(s). This can put a plaintiff out of business.
Equally important, the defendant(s) must have adequate funds to pay damages ajudicated in the court proceeding. Some nefariouis people in business are practically speaking, judgement proof. For someone used to scamming the system, it isn't difficult to routinely put assets in the names of other businesses, and operate, in effect, a shell entity. "Peeling that onion" is even more expensive, and at times, it doesn't pencil out.
This is why, imo, an entity the size of PCGS is going after specific people as "coin doctors" under limited circumstances. To reiterate, I don't think an individual, or group of dealers, has deep enough pockets to do this.
An addendum: As someone else said, don't think for a minute that coin doctors are only going after top end coins. I've seen a number of coins in the $1,000 to $2,500 range which imo were AT'd, and got into first world holders, in addition to more expensive counterparts.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I am not going to directly blast or praise her blustering but I will call it what it is. Irrelevant. This post and and her previous public rants have never been a legitimate fight, nor call-to-arms.
In my twenty+ years in the network security field it was a daily event for security corporations to post press releases and blog posts that hyped "the problem" and their expertise as the "cure". Save a few highly technical resources each and every one of those PR and blog posts served one purpose: to generate business for posters company.
Additionally I will argue that Laura and her ilk who continue to lambaste virtually everyone in the industry apart from themselves are doing absolutely nothing that generates new interest in the hobby. Indeed, it actively scares people away from getting involved. Whats worse it scares away those young and new to the hobby who would be the least likely to purchase a doctored coin in the first place.
Here is my call-to-arms: Laura (and Legend), put your own reputation on the line and name some names along with some proof or stop wasting everyone's time with blog posts which are but thinly veiled sales tactics for the type of coins you market. >>
PCGS was specific in the names they mentioned in their lawsuit.....
Maybe an aftermath of the outcome of the PCGS lawsuit is that indeed more names will be named.
I think what Laura is mainly saying is since that lawsuit began organizations like PNG and ANA could be doing alot more to clean up their ranks........or at least come out with some policy to protect the collector.
This kind of fraud has hurt alot of collectors including yours truly.....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it.
If these same people who dislike the "airing of laundry" would have the same depth of feeling about deceiving the collecting public, then there would be no laundry to air. But, we do have laundry, and part of the reason is that hush-hush approach. It simply provides a cool dark place for it to continue on.
Hmmmm...... can't help but think that Laura was saying she had these want lists and her market segment was looking up.... and maybe that has something to do with trust and knowing someone is looking out for doctored coins. I know if she'd stoop to lower end franklins, walkers, peace then she'd definitely and absolutely have my want list despite the typos, punctuation problems and grammatical mistakes.
Laura, if you're listening, I'll pledge $100 towards each $1,000 you put up.
These guys are a cancer for sure that need to be stopped.
Original named doctors are: "Al Rossman, Eric Steinberg*, Rick Wesslink, Silvano DiGenova (I never liked this lowlife!), Greg Krill, Robert Lehmann, & Does 1-10"
* looks like Steinberg is out in the 2nd amended petition LINK but no new doe names have been named as of yet.
fyi: if you're afraid to name names for fear of being sued (or for whatever other reason(s)) send them to me & I'll be happy to do it. You really need to go all the way on this one & not pull punches. C'mon. Step up.
From Legend site:
"STILL ONLY A HARDY FEW CARE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS ARTICLE SOLEY EXPRESSES THE OPINIONS OF ITS AUTHOR AND NOT LEGEND NUMISMATICS OR ANY RELATED PARTIES.
WHAT WILL IT REALLY TAKE TO MAKE DEALERS CARE?
In my opinion, it seems hell has to freeze over or the market to end due to shoddy coins from the lack of real self policing.
Almost two months into the PCGS Lawsuit and all I hear from other dealers is disgust. Not disgust the right way. Many are sympathetic to the conspirators and feel PCGS is the bad guy. The PNG thinks I am just making noise for publictiy about them, yet they are hiding behind an internal wall of silence. At the ANA Show, I witnessed no changes, no dealers were scared, nothing. Sure, the coin docting issue was a topic, but no dealers cared to step forward and say stop. More complained about "airing laundry" then helping. What a bunch of BS. As far as I am concerned, there is s still a horribly disgusting mentality among most wholesale dealers that they have a right to ruin coins for profit. And my fellow retailers need to get over the fact its ok to look the other way-it is not.
Well, I lump all of them (Non and PNG dealers) in to a "deadwood" catagory. ANY retail dealer who does nothing about this gets lumped in too. I predict within a year, unless the PNG really moves on his issue, they will be done as an organziation. I also predict you won't see many of your favorite dealers doing much business as they will be out of business.
I am tired of pointing out how the PNG has been slow to react and has done little enforcement on coin doctoring. However, my new favorite routine is when they now say, since a doctor is not one of our members, why should we chase them? How would they like it if no one attended their PNG days? I think the public is starting to be fed up and will send them a message.
Are there ANY dealers, ANY at all with ANY shred of decency or ehtics? I am blown away how at the ANA show all the bright young dealers are doing nothing but crackouts and a few are even becoming coin docs. This is NOT the way to go. Why isn't the PNG teaching or demanding strict ehtics from ALL dealers?
How can ANY retail dealer not put pressure on a coin doctor? I find it hard to believe that save for a small handful of dealers I know of-Doug Winter, Al Pinkall, Bill Shamhart, John Albanese are the ONLY ones speaking out with any sincerity. Few others have been PUBLICALLY attacking the coins doctoring situation. Why? I guess its hard when your joined at the hip to a "crackout dealer" or coin doctor (or are related). If your town had posion in its drinking water, wouldn't you join any legit cause to rid the problem? ALL other retail dealers should be ashamed of themselves. I so tempted to name names.
Ask your dealer what they are doing about this situation? If they say little or nothing, deal with someone who does! We need MORE pressure put on the bad guys! Dealers should be the direct warriors againts their own gone astry peers.
I WILL PAY TO SEE THE COIN DOCTORS CAUGHT AND PUNISHED-I'M PUTTING OUT A CONTRACT!
I have made a good living buying and selling coins. My passion is deep and I can not stand to see any negatives hurting the hobby. I am a collector first, dealer second. It is my strong personal opinion, coin doctors should not be allowed to walk a bourse floor or make a living by destroying precious rarities.
Since I am NOT a member of the PNG nor plan on becoming on-but have been so highly critical of their lack of action, I will propose this unlikley motivation for them:
I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permenatley expells from their membership. If anyone wants to join me in creating a bigger fund, please email me. This is NOT a gimmick or PR move. I am desperate for these guys to do something NOW.
I'd LOVE to see them convict 25 of the top dealers who are coin doctors. It would mean so much to the hobby.
THE FIGHT GOES ON
Some VERY interesting and mindblowing things will be reveald shortly from the PCGS lawsuit. Some of it will be shocking i am told. Dealers have to wake up NOW.
Again, my main issue is the dealers attitudes. Sure, PCGS and NGC are paid to detect doctoring, BUT (the big BUT), its the dealers who are the criminals in that they try to defraud the grading services by altering the coins. The amount of dealers who think PCGS is wrong just amazes me. Only after they read their contract with them do they say an "oh". We need to work harder-especially the PNG to change dealers greedy attitudes. The ANA and ALL numismatic publications need to push harder too.
I do not want to leave a good show like the ANA feeling "dirty" again. I am hoping by this time next year, a dozen or so docs and ruthless "crackout" dealers (mini docs-putting, haze, etc) are gone. If we do not put more pressure on these guys now, we'll have multiples more coins ruined by this time next year. I am sick of looking at ruined and overgraded coins!
All comments are welcome. Please email me:lsperber1@hotmail.com. I would love to hear what you are doing about the coin doctoring situation. Also, I'll post any good comments."
<< <i>coinguy1, I will be completely transparent here. I have no economic stake in Legend either.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it. >>
I think who is a partner and who is not a partner of CAC or their financial interests in whatever is totally irrevelant to a discussion on how to stop coin doctoring.........PCGS got serious about it with their lawsuit and named names.......so Laura chooses to blog about it, so what? Now is the time to blog about it .......and hopefully get some momentum going among other professional dealers and numismatic organizations to do something about it while this lawsuit is going.
The fact of the matter is ordinary everyday collectors are being burned by buying coins in slabs or otherwise that have been doctored. To do what ever it takes to stop coin doctoring done for the purpose of fraud is the main discussion here not who is part of CAC or what financial interests someone may or may not have.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>coinguy1, I will be completely transparent here. I have no economic stake in Legend either.
tradedollarnut seems to have a problem with people who disagree with Laura's stance. Look at his response to ricko in this post link. Then, when I pointed out that ricko did not write that Laura's report bothered him, he labeled me a "stalker".
I would still like tradedollarnut to put something in his signature about Legend Coins. I still do not know the extent of his involvement with Legend. Why would he not put a line about Legend in his signature? I think I know why.
Here is an excerpt from one member who just sent me a private message. I do not know this member.
Agree with your post on Laura's rantings. There are actually two forum members that have financial involvement with Laura---Mark Feld aka Coinguy and Tradedollarnut. They are both partners with Laura and John Albanese in their CAC venture.
I don't know if it is true. But if it is, it would make sense for you to write what you wrote. I hope you refute it. >>
Whoever sent you that message is either misinformed or untruthful.
I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation.
Similarly, you can't argue that Laura's willingness to go after coin doctors agressively is something that shouldn't be done. Apathy is dangerous here. Do nothing and the problem will certainly continue.
But let's go back and look at the history. Hancöck's pushing created ANACS to fight counterfeits. A very positive step. Hancöck's fight against coin doctors didn't turn out as well, as seen by the ANA losing the legal battle posted earlier. It seems he found that at some point aggressive attacking of members of the business you are trying to clean up creates an unhealthy atmosphere in which you can't promote numismatics in a positive fashion.
Later when ANACS started grading they tried to eliminate whizzed, cleaned and otherwise doctored coins by labeling them on their certificate. However those certificates were just thrown away. Today, as then, there were many mail-order dealers who would buy coins, specifying that "cleaned coins will be returned at owners expense" which gave them a sense of respectability to the public. But if you bought from them, would got cleaned and whizzed coins. They made a fortune and nobody could stop them. Some still do that today.
In the 1990's together with a few other dealers, I started a thing called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was meant to stop these whizzing factories by highlighting the one who sell wholesome coins. It was a good start at addressing the problem in a positive manner, but it was geared towards raw coin sellers because everyone thought that a slab made the coin OK. It failed after awhile because it didn't get the large support it needed to be successful. Many dealers called it "Na Na na na Na", in a tattle-tale sort of fashion.
Then, in 1996, in an effort to distance the properly graded coins in my field, from the "Dreck", which included overgraded, doctored and otherwise problem coins in certified holders, we started Photo Seal. Again, I wanted to take a positive stance rather than call all the rejected coins BAD, I called the others GOOD. It was a good enough idea for CAC to copy it over 10 years later. I think it helped Indian cents and the market in them tremendously.
PCGS and NGC are and should be the hobby leaders in the fight against coin doctors and must be at the forefront of the battle. Partly because they are the ones being harmed if the coins get graded and later bought back, but also because they have the power to enforce who gets coins graded. By extracting retribution from coin dealers who submit coins from coin doctors (even ones who are their biggest submitters), and instilling the fear of god in those submitters, then they can put the coin doctors out of business.
You (and Laura) can do your part to help fight coin doctoring by telling PCGS and NGC who is submitting doctored coins. Telling us (or you), does little help because that only protects us (or you). The whole hobby should be protected and PCGS and NGC are the ones who need to do that.
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they?
When doctors can't find a market for their products then they will look elsewhere to do their craft. They won't go away, but maybe some will go into, say...Tiffany Glass.
The one thing that history has proven to us, be it in Salem in 1692, Washington DC in the 1950's, Virgil Hancöck in the 1970's or the CU message boards today, is that going after the individuals rather than the market only drives them underground. You can't stop anyone from doing anything to a coin. But if you take away the profit motive, you may protect the hobby.
Tom
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring.
<< <i>If you look at the history of hobby enforcement you see a people who take it upon themselves to bring a problem to the forefront and attempt to fix a problem, sometimes they create problems in doing so. Take Virgil Hancöck back in the 1970's. He took a very similar stance that Laura takes today. Zero tolerance and calls for aggressive enforcement. I think the issue may have even catapulted him to be elected ANA president. He took on counterfeiters and coin doctors non-stop. How could you argue with such an admirable stance such as hobby protection? You can't.
Similarly, you can't argue that Laura's willingness to go after coin doctors agressively is something that shouldn't be done. Apathy is dangerous here. Do nothing and the problem will certainly continue.
But let's go back and look at the history. Hancöck's pushing created ANACS to fight counterfeits. A very positive step. Hancöck's fight against coin doctors didn't turn out as well, as seen by the ANA losing the legal battle posted earlier. It seems he found that at some point aggressive attacking of members of the business you are trying to clean up creates an unhealthy atmosphere in which you can't promote numismatics in a positive fashion.
Later when ANACS started grading they tried to eliminate whizzed, cleaned and otherwise doctored coins by labeling them on their certificate. However those certificates were just thrown away. Today, as then, there were many mail-order dealers who would buy coins, specifying that "cleaned coins will be returned at owners expense" which gave them a sense of respectability to the public. But if you bought from them, would got cleaned and whizzed coins. They made a fortune and nobody could stop them. Some still do that today.
In the 1990's together with a few other dealers, I started a thing called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was meant to stop these whizzing factories by highlighting the one who sell wholesome coins. It was a good start at addressing the problem in a positive manner, but it was geared towards raw coin sellers because everyone thought that a slab made the coin OK. It failed after awhile because it didn't get the large support it needed to be successful. Many dealers called it "Na Na na na Na", in a tattle-tale sort of fashion.
Then, in 1996, in an effort to distance the properly graded coins in my field, from the "Dreck", which included overgraded, doctored and otherwise problem coins in certified holders, we started Photo Seal. Again, I wanted to take a positive stance rather than call all the rejected coins BAD, I called the others GOOD. It was a good enough idea for CAC to copy it over 10 years later. I think it helped Indian cents and the market in them tremendously.
PCGS and NGC are and should be the hobby leaders in the fight against coin doctors and must be at the forefront of the battle. Partly because they are the ones being harmed if the coins get graded and later bought back, but also because they have the power to enforce who gets coins graded. By extracting retribution from coin dealers who submit coins from coin doctors (even ones who are their biggest submitters), and instilling the fear of god in those submitters, then they can put the coin doctors out of business.
You (and Laura) can do your part to help fight coin doctoring by telling PCGS and NGC who is submitting doctored coins. Telling us (or you), does little help because that only protects us (or you). The whole hobby should be protected and PCGS and NGC are the ones who need to do that.
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they?
When doctors can't find a market for their products then they will look elsewhere to do their craft. They won't go away, but maybe some will go into, say...Tiffany Glass.
The one thing that history has proven to us, be it in Salem in 1692, Washington DC in the 1950's, Virgil Hancöck in the 1970's or the CU message boards today, is that going after the individuals rather than the market only drives them underground. You can't stop anyone from doing anything to a coin. But if you take away the profit motive, you may protect the hobby. >>
Well stated.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Please take this opportunity to explain what you are doing to address an obvious problem other than to say what others are doing is not enough or in the interest of self promotion
FTR, Laura would likely would not remember meeting me years ago at a show and I have never met TDN.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese'ss/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring. >>
Thank you for checking with me as you did, rather than assuming that what you had heard was correct.
On the rest, I guess we will have to disagree, at least in part. I think that Laura's public stance against coin doctoring goes well beyond self promotion and can help lead to progress/positive results. And I feel that the situation is much more likely to be addressed, if it is discussed publicly, rather than privately. That said, perhaps I would feel the same way you do, if I hadn't talked to Laura, over a long period of time, instead of knowing her, based only upon her posts here and her website blogs.
I don't know her, but I have to say I agree with this. That she is also self-promoting is OK by me. And it's working. The next show I go to I plan on stopping by Legend's table to thank her....then I'm going to look at her coins.
Tom
You (and Laura) can also help by highlighting doctored coins when they are previewed in auctions or web sites. The sellers should be embarrassed. Auction companies may start pulling doctored coins rather than just try and make a buck on them. Dealers may pass on coins that will put them in a bad light rather than try and make a fast buck selling it to a collector. Beware of listings without pictures, as they can't be identified as doctored, can they? "
.......'dem words are very well spoken and I'm taking them to the bank
First off, you SHOULD know better... no one has any woman all figured out... including the woman herself
Here is a challenge, of sorts... if you really think she is simply self promoting and/or just raising dust and blowing hot air... next chance you have... go take a look at Legend's coins... then go around the bourse and see for yourself... does Legend carry real nice for the grade material? How about most of the other dealers... how do their coins stack up?
I already know what you will find...
I will be generous and say that at least 80% of the coins on display at any show are either ho-hum or so-so or yuck... there are just not that many "special" coins to be found... but heck, that's what makes them special... right?
Ever try to sell a special coin? How about a ho-hum or so-so or yuck coin? Did you notice the palpable difference in the experiences?
and FTR ... here in NJ what a person thinks is not nearly as important as what they do... and another person's opinion of our opinion means little... we speak our mind and most of the time we just don't worry about ruffling feathers
So what if she is self promoting (along with doing the right thing) ... don't all successful business people promote themselves to some degree?
I do not know her well... only met her once and spoke with her briefly... but from that I can safely say that Laura has Zechel... go ahead and look it up... Zechel, Integrity and a good dose of Chutzpah... and in my mind, that is a good thing...
<< <i>
<< <i>I am in support of much of Laura's stance against coin doctors, and am also supportive of John Albanese's/CAC's efforts. However - and I want to be perfectly clear on this - I have no partnership or other financial interest with either. I have neither invested nor received any money with/from Legend or CAC. The extent of my affiliation is that I am an authorized CAC submission dealer and occasionally submit my own coins or clients' coins to CAC. And on one occasion (at Coinfest last year) I sat in with CAC graders and provided my opinions, without compensation. >>
Thank you for the clarification Mark. You have never shown yourself to being anything less than honest and ethical. I don't think the member who sent me the private message was being vindictive, but when I hear rumors, I make sure I go to the source to have them either confirmed or denied.
Still, I can agree with members who expressed their view that Laura's approach is not helpful and nothing more than self-promotion. Someone actually making a claim, that results in Laura awarding the $1000 and subsequently that doctor feeling any sort of punishment would make me change my mind. I think this is very unlikely. If tradedollarnut believes he is doing something because he put up the money, I think he is incorrect. Bu I doubt he even believes that. The truth is the $1000 along with the message has done nothing to diminish doctoring. >>
Sorry, I'm not as nice nor as diplomatic as Mark. I think you've got a lot of balls to be calling me out here - when you haven't done chit yourself. Quit making so many assumptions - you obviously know very little about what really goes on in this industry and how long Laura has been railing against it - even when it was to her serious financial disadvantage. Do some research.
As far as reading comprehension goes - perhaps someone would care to explain the sentence that I quoted and said ROTFLMAO. I think it was fairly self evident that you stated you could either agree with Laura or disagree if you thought logically and rationally. My fraud example was perfectly clear and right on the nose - still waiting for you to refute it. Or perhaps at least state that one can be thinking logically and rationally and also agree with Laura. Perhaps if you had said 4 camps - those who emotionally agree with her because it's coin doctors involved, those who emotionally disagree with her cuz it's Laura, those who think logically and rationally and agree with her and those who do the same and don't. To infer two camps is to denigrate her supporters
<< <i>My fraud example was perfectly clear and right on the nose - still waiting for you to refute it. Or perhaps at least state that one can be thinking logically and rationally and also agree with Laura. >>
We heard your "fraud example." The trouble with it is, it's too broad. For example, supposing I fail to disclose that my coin was doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...by NCS, is that deceiving the public? If it is, then tell us one, good reason NCS isn't at the top of the list of the defendants in this lawsuit? If it isn't, and I doctored...I mean, um, "conserved"...the coin, having used the same, exact techniques NCS employs, why should I have to disclose? That'd be discriminatory.
You can make your "fraud example" more specific. You can start by defining "coin doc" more objectively than the traditional definition, namely, anybody who isn't somebody's palsy-walsy. As your "fraud example" stands, it's simply too broad, and, as such, irrefutable, ab initio. IMHO...
<< <i>Yawn >>
Predictable, but I accept it. I know you're in a spot. Look, keep swinging...
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
Instead of offering $1,000 per name (pure grandstanding), she ought to offer pay all attorney fees when the organization that expels the docs gets their butts sued off for slander/defamation of character, etc.
Would she make such an offer? No.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yawn >>
Predictable, but I accept it. I know you're in a spot. Look, keep swinging...
Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me.
I am a Laura fan. In case you did not read clearly what she wrote, she said: I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permenatley expells from their membership.
How is that asking for names or grandstanding? Seems to me to be a legit call for action.
I hope people realize the point here.
In talking to people at the show about coin doctoring, I found out that some of the people named in the complaint are not coin doctors themselves, but dealers who submitted coins for coin doctors. When confronted with the facts they refused to make PCGS whole, so they suffer the consequences.
I think most coin doctors are not submitters to PCGS and NGC directly. They know that they are doing harm and try to shield themselves from direct confrontation with the grading services. So, they use others to submit coins for them.
We can all do our part by not accepting submissions from anyone for our own orders to PCGS and NGC. Ever since the collectors club started there is no good reason for dealers to submit coins for anyone to PCGS and NGC unless they are your own coins. Sure we pre-screen coins and save the customer money by pre-rejecting problem coins, but the consequences of retribution is too great for the service rendered.
Guess 'cause they try to fix existing problems (NOT try to artificially add or tool or whatever) AND slab it AND note what was done on the slab insert.
"In talking to people at the show about coin doctoring, I found out that some of the people named in the complaint are not coin doctors themselves, but dealers who submitted coins for coin doctors. When confronted with the facts they refused to make PCGS whole, so they suffer the consequences."
Guess the WHOLE point here Rick is whether (a) they KNEW the coins they submitted on behalf of the true doctors were in fact doctored and were complicit in the whole criminal enterprise or (b) merely innocent dupes.
I'd heavily wager on the former (i.e. choice (a)) being true as opposed to the latter if they're still named defendants in the PCGS lawsuit.
Edited to add: I'm not defending anyone here.
If they didn't know they should have.
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
Thanks Don. The rat pack needs to be put on notice.
It has been blatantly made clear that doing so would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem .
for years and years , like a broken record , I hear over and over : "name names " -
what is the major malfunction ??
<< <i>I was sent this message by Don Willis: "It seems to me that you are only interested in picking a fight with TDN. If you haven't anything constructive to contribute then stay of the boards."
My hands are tied here. I cannot reply to this thread anymore.
Thanks Don. The rat pack needs to be put on notice. >>
There is no rat pack, just people who have emotions running high like yours.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
roadrunner
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
I would say the majority of coin collectors have never been to this site, how are they going to be protected? This site attracts the more knowlegeable collector to start with.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I have already placed this legal tender in the care of a trust fund so that justice will be served!
What the HELL is in your wallet?
I believe coin doctors are the scum of the earth and very detrimental to both the hobby and industry as much as the next guy, however the simple fact still remains that no one in the industry or any outside entity will ever put an effective stop to it, or even make a meaningful dent IMO. Even if somehow a group or entity inside the industry were able to put a half dozen or so of the worse offenders (the kingpins) out of commission permanently which seems unlikely, there are still plenty of others IMO ready to take up the slack and still others up and coming.
Let's take the high end luxury watch market for example........high profile brands like Rolex, Patek, Breitling, Cartier, etc. Counterfeiting high end watches is now so widespread and out of control that even the well financed, high powered legal teams representing many of the worlds top brands cannot even put a tiny dent in the billion dollar counterfeit trade which originates primarily from Asia. In fact some of the better quality recent counterfeits/fakes/knock offs have gotten so good they can be very hard to discern from the genuine article from the outside even by an experienced eye using a strong loupe. Rolex produces about 750,000 to 1,000,000 watches per year, and many estimate that counterfeits out number the real ones worldwide by a factor of 10 annually! As with any other industry where high value prestigious brand names or high value collectibles are concerned there will ALWAYS be those who seek to profit by deception whether it be faking Louis Vuitton bags or doctoring bust dollars and Saints, it's just a fact of life that will NOT go away.
I'd actually go so far to say that high profile individuals or entities in the coin biz who constantly draw attention to this problem may be doing more harm than good, as IMO they serve to scare both new and otherwise inexperienced collectors/investors to the ugly realities of coin doctoring as well as force the coin doctor element to devise new methods to apply their trade. As always, your best defense is gaining knowledge over time and/or only dealing with those dealers you trust and will stand behind their products.
You can either draw attention tothe problem and try and rid the coin world of its scum, or do nothing and let the coin world die a slow death. Dragon, why do you think many of your coins have not gone up? Have any turned colors?
Laura did the right thing by standing up and speaking out. Trying to get others invloved is not harmful. Only on this forum do people try and change the top and infuse spite. Its better someone reads there is this problem then to find out the hard way.
<< <i>
This site attracts the more knowlegeable collector to start with. >>
No, it doesn't.
No, it doesn't.
Yep, you cleared that up.
<< <i>Why name names when they are nearly all well-known to the upper end dealership in the hobby? Dealers talk to each other at every major show and I have no doubts most of the major dealers know who the alleged doctors are.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
roadrunner >>
That was my point. Please bring to attention of DaveE, who seems to be having trouble grasping this point.
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why name names when they are nearly all well-known to the upper end dealership in the hobby? Dealers talk to each other at every major show and I have no doubts most of the major dealers know who the alleged doctors are.
An offer of $1000/name sounds impressive on the outside but really is a pittance considering all the negative effects the PNG would suffer through for that $1,000, the most obvious being lawsuits and lawyer's fees. Now for $50,000 or $100,000/name expelled they might consider it worthwhile to their cause.
roadrunner >>
That was my point. Please bring to attention of DaveE, who seems to be having trouble grasping this point. >>
Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity. >>
Nope. Yawn
<< <i>
<< <i>Hardly in a spot. I named a very specific coin doctor action already that amounts to fraud. Sorry if you missed it.
And yes, you're boring me. >>
Oh, look, he's two for two on nonresponsive answers. Do you want to go for three? Or, do you want to answer the question, be more specific, start by defining what you mean by "coin docs" in your overbroad and abstract hypothetical challenge, so that we might all, together, have something remotely approaching a, gosh forbid in this forum, logical and rational discourse on it? This is your big opportunity. >>
He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>>
<< <i>Nope. Yawn >>
I think you just proved RickO's point.