Laura blasts dealers: puts out bounty
dbcoin
Posts: 2,200 ✭✭
latest thoughts
Way to go Laura. We see eye to eye
snip
WHAT WILL IT REALLY TAKE TO MAKE DEALERS CARE?
In my opinion, it seems hell has to freeze over or the market to end due to shoddy coins and lack of self policing.
Almost two months into the PCGS Lawsuit and all I hear from other dealers is disgust. Not disgust the right way. Many are sympathetic to the conspirators and feel PCGS is the bad guy. The PNG thinks I am just making noise for publicity about them, yet they are hiding behind an internal wall of silence. At the ANA Show, I witnessed no changes, no dealers were scared, nothing. Sure, the coin doctoring issue was a topic, but no dealers cared to step forward and say stop. More complained about "airing laundry" then helping. What a bunch of BS. As far as I am concerned, there is s still a horribly disgusting mentality among most wholesale dealers that they have a right to ruin coins for profit. And my fellow retailers need to get over the fact its OK to look the other way-it is not.
....
Are there ANY dealers, ANY at all with ANY shred of decency or ethics? I am blown away how at the ANA show all the bright young dealers are doing nothing but crackouts and a few are even becoming coin docs. This is NOT the way to go. Why isn't the PNG teaching or demanding strict ethics from ALL dealers?
...
Ask your dealer what they are doing about this situation? If they say little or nothing, deal with someone who does! We need MORE pressure put on the bad guys! Dealers should be the direct warriors against their own gone astray peers.
...
I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permanently expels from their membership. If anyone wants to join me in creating a bigger fund, please email me. This is NOT a gimmick or PR move. I am desperate for these guys to do something NOW.
...
THE FIGHT GOES ON
Some VERY interesting and mind blowing things will be revealed shortly from the PCGS lawsuit. Some of it will be shocking I am told. Dealers have to wake up NOW.
Way to go Laura. We see eye to eye
snip
WHAT WILL IT REALLY TAKE TO MAKE DEALERS CARE?
In my opinion, it seems hell has to freeze over or the market to end due to shoddy coins and lack of self policing.
Almost two months into the PCGS Lawsuit and all I hear from other dealers is disgust. Not disgust the right way. Many are sympathetic to the conspirators and feel PCGS is the bad guy. The PNG thinks I am just making noise for publicity about them, yet they are hiding behind an internal wall of silence. At the ANA Show, I witnessed no changes, no dealers were scared, nothing. Sure, the coin doctoring issue was a topic, but no dealers cared to step forward and say stop. More complained about "airing laundry" then helping. What a bunch of BS. As far as I am concerned, there is s still a horribly disgusting mentality among most wholesale dealers that they have a right to ruin coins for profit. And my fellow retailers need to get over the fact its OK to look the other way-it is not.
....
Are there ANY dealers, ANY at all with ANY shred of decency or ethics? I am blown away how at the ANA show all the bright young dealers are doing nothing but crackouts and a few are even becoming coin docs. This is NOT the way to go. Why isn't the PNG teaching or demanding strict ethics from ALL dealers?
...
Ask your dealer what they are doing about this situation? If they say little or nothing, deal with someone who does! We need MORE pressure put on the bad guys! Dealers should be the direct warriors against their own gone astray peers.
...
I Laura Sperber, will donate to the ANA Young Numismatist fund ( or ANY fund of the PNGs choosing) 1,000.00 for EVERY coin doctor the PNG identifies and permanently expels from their membership. If anyone wants to join me in creating a bigger fund, please email me. This is NOT a gimmick or PR move. I am desperate for these guys to do something NOW.
...
THE FIGHT GOES ON
Some VERY interesting and mind blowing things will be revealed shortly from the PCGS lawsuit. Some of it will be shocking I am told. Dealers have to wake up NOW.
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
peacockcoins
"Mind-Blowing"???
Are Beanie Babies ever "mind-blowing? How about a cool stamp? Any Lladro out there that has the cachet of "mind-blowing"? How about a tulip?
Drunner
like cop's , they have an unwritten code......to protect and cover for each other
myself , as I said b4 - I'm doing my part by not knowingly buying any doctored coins
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>I don't sell coins but if I did and I wanted to dip or color and its not against the law, too bad for anyone who doesn't like it
John >>
Yeah, to bad for the guy who would buy such a coin sold by you. Would you disclose that you colored a coin when you did go to sell it?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I don't sell coins but if I did and I wanted to dip or color and its not against the law, too bad for anyone who doesn't like it
John >>
......too bad indeed.........
In my twenty+ years in the network security field it was a daily event for security corporations to post press releases and blog posts that hyped "the problem" and their expertise as the "cure". Save a few highly technical resources each and every one of those PR and blog posts served one purpose: to generate business for posters company.
Additionally I will argue that Laura and her ilk who continue to lambaste virtually everyone in the industry apart from themselves are doing absolutely nothing that generates new interest in the hobby. Indeed, it actively scares people away from getting involved. Whats worse it scares away those young and new to the hobby who would be the least likely to purchase a doctored coin in the first place.
Here is my call-to-arms: Laura (and Legend), put your own reputation on the line and name some names along with some proof or stop wasting everyone's time with blog posts which are but thinly veiled sales tactics for the type of coins you market.
<< <i>I don't sell coins but if I did and I wanted to dip or color and its not against the law, too bad for anyone who doesn't like it
John >>
Yeah, just don't look for sympathy here when you get stuck with an expensive coin that turned in the holder. It will happen.
Lance.
<< <i>I am not going to directly blast or praise her blustering but I will call it what it is. Irrelevant. This post and and her previous public rants have never been a legitimate fight, nor call-to-arms.
In my twenty+ years in the network security field it was a daily event for security corporations to post press releases and blog posts that hyped "the problem" and their expertise as the "cure". Save a few highly technical resources each and every one of those PR and blog posts served one purpose: to generate business for posters company.
Additionally I will argue that Laura and her ilk who continue to lambaste virtually everyone in the industry apart from themselves are doing absolutely nothing that generates new interest in the hobby. Indeed, it actively scares people away from getting involved. Whats worse it scares away those young and new to the hobby who would be the least likely to purchase a doctored coin in the first place.
Here is my call-to-arms: Laura (and Legend), put your own reputation on the line and name some names along with some proof or stop wasting everyone's time with blog posts which are but thinly veiled sales tactics for the type of coins you market. >>
POTD!
Supporting Laura Sperber is fine, but implying that any other dealer that isn't openly speaking out against doctoring is somehow part of some grand, interlinked conspiracy to cover each others backs is unfair. It's simply not true. It's because of posts like this that this forum is mocked by much of the numismatic community as being irrational and filled with false information.
Plus, you're assuming that all dealers are fully informed of both the doctoring situation and the PCGS lawsuit, NEITHER of which is true.
<< <i>POTD! >>
Disagree.
It'd be basically suicidal to start naming names out to the public without being harmed personally by them. You have to get the doctor on a breach of contract or something similar. Thus, Laura trying to prod on the numerous organizations and magazines, namely the PNG and PCGS, to expell the members who are doctors. And from what I can tell, Laura has named names to at least one organization in the hopes of getting some action, which led to nothing.
So now she goes to the next step, offer a monetary reward for acting on the problem. And whether you want to admit it or not, CAC has led to a tightening of the TPGs and an overall rise in awareness of problems among the industry.
As for scaring away new collectors, i call Bull****. The real coin docs, not the ebay "L@@K at the Color" guys, aren't targeting $100 coins. And new collectors who jump straight into the big money coins aren't doing so recklessly. They were smart enough to earn the money to play in the big kids pool, they aren't gonna be dumb enough to spend it in an area they don't know without some guidance.
As always, Just MHO...
<< <i>
<< <i>POTD! >>
Disagree.
It'd be basically suicidal to start naming names out to the public without being harmed personally by them. You have to get the doctor on a breach of contract or something similar. Thus, Laura trying to prod on the numerous organizations and magazines, namely the PNG and PCGS, to expell the members who are doctors. And from what I can tell, Laura has named names to at least one organization in the hopes of getting some action, which led to nothing.
So now she goes to the next step, offer a monetary reward for acting on the problem. And whether you want to admit it or not, CAC has led to a tightening of the TPGs and an overall rise in awareness of problems among the industry.
As for scaring away new collectors, i call Bull****. The real coin docs, not the ebay "L@@K at the Color" guys, aren't targeting $100 coins. And new collectors who jump straight into the big money coins aren't doing so recklessly. They were smart enough to earn the money to play in the big kids pool, they aren't gonna be dumb enough to spend it in an area they don't know without some guidance.
As always, Just MHO... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>POTD! >>
Disagree.
It'd be basically suicidal to start naming names out to the public without being harmed personally by them. You have to get the doctor on a breach of contract or something similar. Thus, Laura trying to prod on the numerous organizations and magazines, namely the PNG and PCGS, to expell the members who are doctors. And from what I can tell, Laura has named names to at least one organization in the hopes of getting some action, which led to nothing.
So now she goes to the next step, offer a monetary reward for acting on the problem. And whether you want to admit it or not, CAC has led to a tightening of the TPGs and an overall rise in awareness of problems among the industry.
As for scaring away new collectors, i call Bull****. The real coin docs, not the ebay "L@@K at the Color" guys, aren't targeting $100 coins. And new collectors who jump straight into the big money coins aren't doing so recklessly. They were smart enough to earn the money to play in the big kids pool, they aren't gonna be dumb enough to spend it in an area they don't know without some guidance.
As always, Just MHO... >>
I couldnt agree with you more. You also brought up a fantastic point, THE REAL COIN DOCS ARE NOT THE EBAY LOOK AT THE COLOR people out for a quick buck. The real coin doctors go after HIGH end coins, use lasers and a wide array of other methods to fool tpg's. Only a handful of people on this board have the knowlege of what real coin doctors are doing and attempting to do. There are a couple people making huge steps in the right direction but when the ANA and PNG do nothing about coin docs it makes it a bit tuff.
be a trust worthy enterprise so you can not blame them. But the one thing PCGS does do is stand behind there service.
Can you except a dealer to go to the top of the mountian and air all the dirt laundry when there very incomes depend on it?
The solution is to have the graders weed out over time all the bad
players and products with technology that they are bringing online as quick as they can. The problem as I see it is everyone can get hurt I mean everyone. This kind of publicity could have a ever lasting
effect on the hobby. Just because a dealer does not raise a stink does not mean they are in favor of doctoring coins.
A lot of dealers have a life time invested in there buisness and do not want to shoot themselfs in the foot. There is many sides to this issue and panic is not one of them.
I hung out with all my coin buds virtually 24x7. Great fun.
To be honest, reading all this is kind of a downer. I wish Laura the best and I believe her intentions are good. But it's not why I went to Boston this week.
I have been reading about coin docs for years, nothing really has changed and PCGS is only going against a few so far. I want to see some action. So far the only one with balls is a woman.
Lets start a legal fund for Laura so she can name the names. There are a lot of laywers looking for work now so maybe she could get a discount.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>POTD! >>
Disagree.
It'd be basically suicidal to start naming names out to the public without being harmed personally by them. You have to get the doctor on a breach of contract or something similar. Thus, Laura trying to prod on the numerous organizations and magazines, namely the PNG and PCGS, to expell the members who are doctors. And from what I can tell, Laura has named names to at least one organization in the hopes of getting some action, which led to nothing.
So now she goes to the next step, offer a monetary reward for acting on the problem. And whether you want to admit it or not, CAC has led to a tightening of the TPGs and an overall rise in awareness of problems among the industry.
As for scaring away new collectors, i call Bull****. The real coin docs, not the ebay "L@@K at the Color" guys, aren't targeting $100 coins. And new collectors who jump straight into the big money coins aren't doing so recklessly. They were smart enough to earn the money to play in the big kids pool, they aren't gonna be dumb enough to spend it in an area they don't know without some guidance.
As always, Just MHO... >>
I couldnt agree with you more. You also brought up a fantastic point, THE REAL COIN DOCS ARE NOT THE EBAY LOOK AT THE COLOR people out for a quick buck. The real coin doctors go after HIGH end coins, use lasers and a wide array of other methods to fool tpg's. Only a handful of people on this board have the knowlege of what real coin doctors are doing and attempting to do. There are a couple people making huge steps in the right direction but when the ANA and PNG do nothing about coin docs it makes it a bit tuff. >>
Which is the exact problem with her vague "the sky is falling" rants. The entire point of my post, which is either being ignorantly (not stupidly) or purposefully misread, is that it does more harm to the industry as a whole, than it does good to a tiny fraction of the industry. And now, your defense for her reluctance to name names is that "coin doctors" are also heavy's and leg breakers. Classic.
While this is strictly anecdotal, I'll tell you a little story:
I've gone after the bad guys of the computer crime world. From the 15 year old nothings, to Russian underworld backed organizations, and so forth. Nothing I ever accomplished was a strictly one man job and I wouldn't take sole credit for any good that ever came from my work. In playing BOTH sides of the researcher/pundit role sometimes you keep your mouth shut and sometimes you don't. In instances wherein I (and others) were actively working with LEO investigations, I never publicly wrote a single word having to do with the investigation at hand. In instances wherein I knew investigations had failed, or due to international coordination could never be initiated: I publicly called the infrastructures out with research of my own, research from the organization I directly worked with and research from other research teams from around the world. I didn't do this to generate income because we were a closed non-profit.
I did it because it was the right thing to do. I did my work, connected the dots, drew it all out and didn't pull any punches about which companies were doing what. And what I never did was blog informationless rants which did nothing but breed fear, uncertainty and doubt.
So yeah, take a real stand, or STFU.
Here, let me highlight a hypothetical Laura post with all the key points and touch less drama and hype:
"Coin doctors are bad and still everywhere. PNG sucks and doesn't do anything. We at Legend and a few other dealers are the only people trying to protect the coin industry and selling good coins. Be careful because almost everything we see out there is dreck"
Now let me give you a quick and oversimplified hypothetical post of what a report by someone actually trying to do something might look like:
"
(Report introduction and explanation}
We have been investigating XYZ dealer for about six months now and here are out findings:
On 1/1/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 4/4/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
On 1/21/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 4/13/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
On 3/1/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 6/1/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
(Report summary)
"
Now as for the argument that Legend rants don't scare collectors away. I laugh, hard. Laura (Legend) doesn't limit their targets to $100,000+ coins or coin dealers. They blame the entire industry save a few dealers, and because they publicly market to a specific high end market their informationless yet scary sounding rants still carry weight with newbies that just might want to build a Dansco set. "Oh, no I don't want to collect dreck!"
As for CAC, they are market makers. Whether they've legitimately tightened grading standards themselves is HIGHLY questionable. What they have done, and quite successfully, is build and support a market of essentially seen-"sight unseen" coins. Kudos! But it is still just one facet of a far larger market. Does CAC run around constantly ranting about the coin doctoring problem, how bad PNG sucks and that everyone other than XYZ sucks? No. Why? They don't need to in order to successfully market their company.
Unfortunately some others seem to think it helps their business to call the rest of the coin business a giant pile of manure whenever it seems opportune.
Glad to see a high profile person stand up and take steps that may open up this issue. Laura
Why does Jimmy Hoffa and Giants Stadium come to mind?
This "I'm gonna champion the cause because I know what's best" chatter does nothing for me.
I realize that the business is fraught with toning and cleaning and that if I want to buy something that I have to do my homework and be careful and become a specialist in what I collect. That's how you get the collection you want.
Also if Laura is such an expert and knows the business and knows what's best for it then surely she knows who some of the coin doctors are and can maybe start this ball rolling by outing some herself. Oddly enough she herself is a coin dealer and seems to thrive on bashing other dealers.
i know one thing. Before I die I'm going to buy a 1907 High Relief Saint. I'll be very selective about who I buy it from. I've been involved in one big fiasco in the rare book world and in my mind there isn't a nickels worth of difference between a shady rare book dealer and a shady coin dealer.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>STILL ONLY A HARDY FEW CARE >>
On a more serious note, she's posted similar things for a few years now and they seem like no more than attempts to scare people into buying Legend coins.
Until a majority of people in the hobby stop purchasing the coins or money stops being made on doctored coins; greed will reign supreme. There has to be a better way to help uninformed people about these coins than blog rants. Honestly, I wouldnt've checked or known about Laura's post if it wasn't on here. Perhaps publishing/distributing a book with characteristics of doctored coins and diagrams of shady-dealer-haircuts and facial hair grooming techniques would be more useful.
In short, I agree with pheh. There would be a much better approach if there was serious effort being put forth.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Knew my response wouldn't be very popular but i want to reiterate I don't sell coins and I never will. I don't buy toners. And while I may not have a mega buck or finest anything the bottom line is there are billions of coins. Some people liked toned coins. Some people try to clean coins. You can't stop it. It's not against any laws. Might be unethical in some instances but not against the law.
>>
The current "settled law" on coin doctoring is the 1977 case ANA & USPS vs Riverside Coin Co, which the ANA lost, and then lost on appeal.
The conclusions: (Hancöck refers to then-ANA President Virgil Hancöck)
The grading of coins is a matter of judgment. Five experienced graders may grade the same coin five different grades.
In the numismatic field where honest differences of opinion frequently exist between buyer and seller as to the grade of the merchandise involved. Such a guarantee reflects the recognized uncertainty inherent in the matter of grading coins. This uncertainty allows a degree of legitimate "puffing" by sellers as to the grading of coins offered for sale. Such "puffing" may be offensive to purists such as Mr. Hancöck but the record shows that the practice should be a matter of common knowledge among collectors.
"Whizzing" or polishing of coins is considered by some collectors to degrade a coin. For others it enhances the desirability of a coin. There is nothing illegal about "whizzing" or polishing. There is no unanimity of opinion as to the effect of such procedures on the grading of coins although increasing experience in collecting may tend to cause a collector to shun "whizzed" or polished coins. However, this is a matter of personal preference. Therefore, I find no misrepresentation involved in respondent's practice of "whizzing" or polishing coins.
Polishing of coins, although anathema to certain experienced collectors such as Mr. Hancöck (Tr. 98) and ground for expulsion from ANA if habitually practiced by a collector, is practiced and accepted by a large number of collectors and dealers (Tr. 81, 129, 165, 309, 310). It is not illegal. There is no law or regulation or otherwise binding sanction requiring dealers to identify whizzed coins as such.
Honest differences of opinion and judgment as to the grade and genuineness of the particular coins involved in this proceeding, including the effect of "whizzing" thereon, may account for differences in grade found by the various witnesses in this matter. Differences of that nature do not furnish the basis for a finding of misrepresentations, as alleged in the complaint, on the part of respondent.
Complainant has failed to sustain the burden of proving the falsity of the representations alleged. Accordingly, the complaint is dismissed.
<< <i>
<< <i>Knew my response wouldn't be very popular but i want to reiterate I don't sell coins and I never will. I don't buy toners. And while I may not have a mega buck or finest anything the bottom line is there are billions of coins. Some people liked toned coins. Some people try to clean coins. You can't stop it. It's not against any laws. Might be unethical in some instances but not against the law.
>>
The current "settled law" on coin doctoring is the 1977 case ANA & USPS vs Riverside Coin Co, which the ANA lost, and then lost on appeal.
The conclusions: (Hancöck refers to then-ANA President Virgil Hancöck)
The grading of coins is a matter of judgment. Five experienced graders may grade the same coin five different grades.
In the numismatic field where honest differences of opinion frequently exist between buyer and seller as to the grade of the merchandise involved. Such a guarantee reflects the recognized uncertainty inherent in the matter of grading coins. This uncertainty allows a degree of legitimate "puffing" by sellers as to the grading of coins offered for sale. Such "puffing" may be offensive to purists such as Mr. Hancöck but the record shows that the practice should be a matter of common knowledge among collectors.
"Whizzing" or polishing of coins is considered by some collectors to degrade a coin. For others it enhances the desirability of a coin. There is nothing illegal about "whizzing" or polishing. There is no unanimity of opinion as to the effect of such procedures on the grading of coins although increasing experience in collecting may tend to cause a collector to shun "whizzed" or polished coins. However, this is a matter of personal preference. Therefore, I find no misrepresentation involved in respondent's practice of "whizzing" or polishing coins.
Polishing of coins, although anathema to certain experienced collectors such as Mr. Hancöck (Tr. 98) and ground for expulsion from ANA if habitually practiced by a collector, is practiced and accepted by a large number of collectors and dealers (Tr. 81, 129, 165, 309, 310). It is not illegal. There is no law or regulation or otherwise binding sanction requiring dealers to identify whizzed coins as such.
Honest differences of opinion and judgment as to the grade and genuineness of the particular coins involved in this proceeding, including the effect of "whizzing" thereon, may account for differences in grade found by the various witnesses in this matter. Differences of that nature do not furnish the basis for a finding of misrepresentations, as alleged in the complaint, on the part of respondent.
Complainant has failed to sustain the burden of proving the falsity of the representations alleged. Accordingly, the complaint is dismissed.
>>
BINGO!!!!
<< <i>This obviously contentious issue is clearly polarizing the forum into two camps. Those who emotionally side with Laura (due mainly to the abhorrence of 'doctoring coins') and those who deal in rational, logical thought. Case law shows that 'doctoring' is not illegal. The 'market' demands and pays for colorized and flawless coins. Ergo, doctoring is legitimate business. The lawsuit is based on losses caused by doctoring and this may bring a different judgement to the situation. Based on case history, this is a long shot, but not impossible. Not this lawsuit, nor impotent blog or forum railing against doctoring will prevent the practice. The only solution is to eliminate the market. When the 'color fad' dies out, so will that market. Tooling, lasering, puttying, etc, the practice of 'improving a coin through external manipulation will continue as long as high grade coins bring high prices. Individuals will continue to 'improve' low grade coins, seeking profit. The solution, at least partially, is for hobbyists to learn how to identify these efforts and shun those coins. It will limit the market, although the enterprising individual will constantly seek new ways to ply their trade. There is profit to be made. Pheh and Frank make excellent points, clear posts of logic and fact. We need more of this type of input and less emotion. Cheers, RickO >>
If her intention is the "clean up" the hobby (no pun intended), and I do believe that is her intention, she should consider trying to get a few dealers together that she trusts, invest some time and money, and create an educational campaign that will reach collectors. The campaign should focus on how to detect when a coin has been doctored, why these coins should be avoided, and what someone should do if they believe they have accidently purchased a doctored coin. The campaign might also included the names of "trusted dealers" who have signed a "no doctoring" agreement, etc.
I don't care who is doing the doctoring.... Give me the names of those who are not doing it!!!!!
There have been some very intelligent responses to Laura's carnival barking. Some of you just refuse to read and try to understand what they wrote.
<< <i>I have no reason to doubt Laura's intentions, and if her conscience is motivating her to take action, then that is fine with me. Her approach, however, is destined for failure. You don't create consensus and change minds by degrading those who you need to be your allies. Her attacks on the PNG almost has me automatically wanting to take the side of the PNG. She has this "me vs. the world" mentality, it seems.
If her intention is the "clean up" the hobby (no pun intended), and I do believe that is her intention, she should consider trying to get a few dealers together that she trusts, invest some time and money, and create an educational campaign that will reach collectors. The campaign should focus on how to detect when a coin has been doctored, why these coins should be avoided, and what someone should do if they believe they have accidently purchased a doctored coin. The campaign might also included the names of "trusted dealers" who have signed a "no doctoring" agreement, etc.
I don't care who is doing the doctoring.... Give me the names of those who are not doing it!!!!! >>
Crawling up on the Laura consumer protection bandwagon is tempting, but then you realize that you could be kicked off it for doing nothing more than breathing. Would I like to see coin doctoring eliminated from the hobby? You bet, but you can’t build coalitions by attacking those who agree with you.
Now let me give you a quick and oversimplified hypothetical post of what a report by someone actually trying to do something might look like:
"
(Report introduction and explanation}
We have been investigating XYZ dealer for about six months now and here are out findings:
On 1/1/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 4/4/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
On 1/21/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 4/13/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
On 3/1/10 this coin (IMG) was won at ABC Auction. On 6/1/10 it was sold by XYZ dealer in a new holder at this upgraded grade: ##. Here is what the coin looks like now: (IMG).
- Detailed explanation of changes and similarities that clearly identify the coin as the same and what changes were made
(Report summary)
" >>
Pheh,
My personal opinion is that Laura is Very passionate about the entire coin doctoring issue. From reading her writings over the last few months on the issue. I do not know her personally or professionally. Just what I have read on here and her column. But from her writings you can get some insight into her, just reading with an eye from a security stand point. whether driven by promotion of a company or personal passion for an issue. I have no idea, unless I personally met and knew her for awhile. But she is bring attention to an issue long
hidden in the shadows of the numismatic community. We can all agree on that I think.
Your pointing out to everyone the format of a basic security report and the format appropriate for reporting doctored coins above is bar none, one of the greatest ideas brought forth for combating the problem of coin doctoring that I have seen. Easy format to put together
and easily distributed given today's technology. Just the pointing out of facts, Here is the coin before and after, Here are the Common
Identifying marks that are basically finger prints of the coin in question. And here is what it looks like now. Leave the judgment up to the
the individual collectors reading the reports. Kind of like the CRS Reports for Congress, Just the facts.
Leave the spin up to the politicians
The entire issue of coin doctoring is no doubt a security threat to the entire hobby. If it is treated as such,much more traction will be gained in bringing attention to this issue.
As you know, very few large projects are accomplished with just the work of one person. Or one idea. A blending of Passion backed by Facts
put out to the collecting community in a fashion that will not leave people open to law suits will put a Huge dent in the coin doctoring world
The hobby of Numismatics is at it's base a hobby of Passion and of Facts. When a balance of the two is struck on this issue I think
a lot of the back and forth arguing will calm down. Right now there is no balance it is all Passion with no facts. People are being told of
this huge problem in their chosen hobby, yet very little facts are coming forth. For now it is just going to cause frustration and division
in the hobby until those that have the ability, come forth and collaborate with others and bring their individual talents to the table
Just my $1.25
For a leisurely Sunday morning.
Terry
ROTFLMAO
If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed, then you aren't thinking as rationally as you claim to be! Why do you support criminals?
<< <i>Those who emotionally side with Laura (due mainly to the abhorrence of 'doctoring coins') and those who deal in rational, logical thought
ROTFLMAO
If you don't thin coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed, then you aren't thinking as rationally as you claim to be! Why do you support criminals? >>
tradedollarnut, not only do you not get the point of ricko's post, but then you try to derail his thought by putting nonsense in its place. I was told that you are a business partner with Legend. If so, I understand your behavior. It reinforces my previous post above.
<< <i>
<< <i>Those who emotionally side with Laura (due mainly to the abhorrence of 'doctoring coins') and those who deal in rational, logical thought
ROTFLMAO
If you don't thin coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed, then you aren't thinking as rationally as you claim to be! Why do you support criminals? >>
tradedollarnut, not only do you not get the point of ricko's post, but then you try to derail his thought by putting nonsense in its place. I was told that you are a business partner with Legend. If so, I understand your behavior. It reinforces my previous post above. >>
My behavior? /eyeroll
OF COURSE I'm a partner in Legend - that's been announced here many times. Perhaps we need to have everyone who owns shares in CLCT announce such things as well? And I own part of CAC as well.
Coin docs are criminals when they submit their results to the TPG's in an effort to deceive. Period.
I have nothing bad to say about her battle to improve the hobby/industry.
<< <i>Those who emotionally side with Laura (due mainly to the abhorrence of 'doctoring coins') and those who deal in rational, logical thought
ROTFLMAO
If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed, then you aren't thinking as rationally as you claim to be! Why do you support criminals? >>
Well I for one am at a loss as to how that single cell of yours derives that he supports counterfeiting from that statement of his.
<< <i>Some of the people who expressed sentiment with Laura here have financial interest in doing so. Some are frequent customers of Legend, one is even a business partner but does not state so in his post. They think they can write in an impartial manner, but they cannot.
There have been some very intelligent responses to Laura's carnival barking. Some of you just refuse to read and try to understand what they wrote. >>
And it could be just as fairly said that you refuse to read and try to uderstand what those who agree with Laura, have written.
It is well known that TDN has been a business partner of Legend - it's not like he tries to hide it. His user profile includes his own, real life name, including a website and email address, for everyone to see. Why don't you do the same and tell us who you are, since you apparently care so much about transparency?
I do very little business with Legend and have no financial interest in agreeing with Laura on the subject of coin doctoring. Yet, while I don't always agree with everything she says or the way she goes about it, I think her stance is a badly needed step in the right direction. And it is a lot more than most others are doing. It's easy to find fault with the efforts of others, but a lot more difficult to do better, yourself.
<< <i>This obviously contentious issue is clearly polarizing the forum into two camps. Those who emotionally side with Laura (due mainly to the abhorrence of 'doctoring coins') and those who deal in rational, logical thought. Case law shows that 'doctoring' is not illegal. The 'market' demands and pays for colorized and flawless coins. Ergo, doctoring is legitimate business. The lawsuit is based on losses caused by doctoring and this may bring a different judgement to the situation. Based on case history, this is a long shot, but not impossible. Not this lawsuit, nor impotent blog or forum railing against doctoring will prevent the practice. The only solution is to eliminate the market. When the 'color fad' dies out, so will that market. Tooling, lasering, puttying, etc, the practice of 'improving a coin through external manipulation will continue as long as high grade coins bring high prices. Individuals will continue to 'improve' low grade coins, seeking profit. The solution, at least partially, is for hobbyists to learn how to identify these efforts and shun those coins. It will limit the market, although the enterprising individual will constantly seek new ways to ply their trade. There is profit to be made. Pheh and Frank make excellent points, clear posts of logic and fact. We need more of this type of input and less emotion. Cheers, RickO >>
Excellent post!
Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007
Successful BST transactions with Coinboy and Wondercoin.
I'm still waiting for someone to refute the assertion that coin docs committ fraud when they submit their wares to the TPG's in an attempt to deceive.
Probably so. But CAC in the hobby has brought about the inference that anything not CAC'd, especially in the >$500 range is potentially suspect or not up to par. It has isolated a huge number of coins that are non-CAC'd and basically made them 2nd class coins, at a significant financial loss to the owners. This is a broad-based policy of "most coins left behind." It certainly won't lead to hobby growth. I'm not saying it's not needed or hasn't been beneficial in many ways, but I fear the unintended conseqences could far outweigh the good. The issue of TPG overgraded coins is far more serious issue than doctoring as it affects a much wider swath of the hobby. Let's not kid ourselves on which one has had the bigger detrimental effect. Both are important, but one much more so since so many coins are already long gone from the barn...and closing the doors really doesn't solve that issue.
"Whizzing" or polishing of coins is considered by some collectors to degrade a coin. For others it enhances the desirability of a coin. There is nothing illegal about "whizzing" or polishing. There is no unanimity of opinion as to the effect of such procedures on the grading of coins although increasing experience in collecting may tend to cause a collector to shun "whizzed" or polished coins. However, this is a matter of personal preference. Therefore, I find no misrepresentation involved in respondent's practice of "whizzing" or polishing coins.
Amazing. I doubt you could find (either in 1977 or 2010) even a single collector of US classic coins worth >$100-500 each that thinks whizzing/polishing their coins enhances them. Even the King of Siam(s) knew better than to polish their set of presentation coins....ditto for Elisaberg, James Stack, Norweb, Pittman, Pryor, etc.
"Ruined and overgraded coins" were the norm back in the 70's and early 80's. So today's ANA must make one feel less "dirty" than having been around back then. But I would have to agree that calling out other dealers when one pushes an all-CAC product line certainly helps to advance one's own business at the expense of everyone else.
roadrunner
I once flew with a friend of mine and a few of his guests to an exotic automobile auction. Along the way, one of the guests had us stop at a facility in northern VA that had just completed a frame-off restoration of his 64 Ferrari America. The vehicle was believed to be the best example known, and had won many ribbons. It's exterior was gingham pearl metallic. The reason for the restoration was that last year in Geneva the vehicle had scored 99.2, rather than the 100 that was possible. The restorer, as it happens, was one of the judges.
The restoration included complete stripping and refinishing. The shop stripped the original paint from the car and asked DuPont, who was headquartered nearby, to recreate the original paint. Interestingly, the original color was made using 400 lbs of crushed organic mother of pearl. DuPont found it impossible to duplicate. The car was repainted with a non-organic substitute. When the vehicle owner took redelivery of his vehicle, the shop parking lot was gravel. He jumped in for a test drive, and stalled the car. He quickly restarted it, and in his embarrassment, released the clutch too quickly, spraying gravel into both rear quarters. The damage was minimal, and I assume was repaired before the vehicle was shipped home.
Upon returning to the plane, the owner seemed very happy with the restoration, which was well into 6 figures. I asked him what the original defect was that caused the vehicle to lose .08% from the judges. Apparently, it was the stitching in the seat belt webbing. It was not original.
I'd imagine Laura's firm makes a great deal of money serving folks like my friend's guest. If my friend's guest "invests" in vintage cars and makes a few bucks while enjoying himself, he'll tell all of his friends. The same is true if he gets hurt. It would certainly be in Laura's best interest to protect them. She seems to be trying to assure them the hobby isn't dangerous, just the bad actors. I think she's probably right.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
anyway , " The issue of TPG overgraded coins is far more serious issue than doctoring as it affects a much wider swath of the hobby. "
- I firmly believe that PCGS is going above and beyond in their attempt to weed out over graded and/or doctored coins .
I know this to be true from the various threads in which D.W has stated so !
OF COURSE I'm a partner in Legend - that's been announced here many times. Perhaps we need to have everyone who owns shares in CLCT announce such things as well? And I own part of CAC as well.
Coin docs are criminals when they submit their results to the TPG's in an effort to deceive. Period. >>
I think you have done a lot in this hobby and done it the hard way from the bottom up, you have risked a lot to end up where you are now.
But besides barking about coin docs for years ( which has had little or no effect on the practice) what do you think will get the problem solved or to a very low level of doctoring? Personally i do not think the PCGS suit will stop it. The PNG is not going to stop it. Legend and you have taken on this crusade since it is important to you, looks like you would do more than just shout out that coin docs are out there working. If you know they are docotring coins why are you so scared of naming names. I do not see you losing a lawsuit if you are right. Form a LLC or something similiar to expose the docs and let them go after a corporation with 1 dollar in it. I admire what you are trying to do but at times it reads
"Coin docs are ruining the hobby and i know who they are and all about it, but that is all the help i am willing to give you cause those doctors are powerful and i could cost me money and i am not willing to go further than state the warning."
The main group of core dealers are around these docs on a weekly basis and in my opinion you non docs need to band together and tackle the problem, no one else can do it. You guys have the front row chairs and are in the locker room. The rest of us are watching from afar with no playbook or program to follow along.
If these coin docs were selling crack to school kids on the side people would stand up and do something.
Mark Feld is highly respected on these forums and is quick to put a poster in his place, step up and help rid the hobby of these docs. You guys are going to have to be the ones to do it. A forum collector in a small back woods town can not do it.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"