ACFLN 2358 OPRSV -- General Motors Roller Press (?) cent (?) with Libertas Americana (?) obverse

jonathanb

Sometimes I post stuff here and I have no clue what it is. Sometimes I know exactly. This one is in the middle -- I'm pretty sure that I have half of the story.

This piece appears to be copper-plated aluminum. The obverse and reverse are bright copper color, while the edge is aluminum color. It is very light, 1.478 grams, and 20.8 mm diameter. It is 12-sided. The text on the reverse reads ACFLN / 2358 / OPRSV

Give yourself credit if you can come up even with half of the story. As far as I can tell, this piece is something of a numismatic mystery. I found references back to the early 1960s (does anyone have copies of Numismatic Scrapbook from that era?) and apparently nobody knows exactly where it came from... although there seems to be some agreement about what it "must be" related to...

Aegis3

If I had to take a guess I'd speculate that it's somehow related to the GM roller press semi-official private patterns of the late 1960s. For some reason this piece looks familiar, but I don't recall where I've seen it (or if I have at all).

Aegis3

And, as a second thought, the head really does appear to basically the same one for the 1945 assay commission medal, minus the cap.

messydesk

Didn't GM (yes, Gummint Motors) test coining presses once upon a time? I seem to remember seeing an article about them using gibberish lettering just to test how it would work, so the text is meaningless. Given the diameter, it could almost be a metallurgic trial for a cent.

jonathanb

Four minutes from post to response. Sheesh. It's really hard to stump this board!

There is a long writeup on the General Motors Roller Press cents here, along with scans of a couple articles from Coin World in the mid-1990s. Towards the end of the article is a very fuzzy picture of an item that looks a lot like mine. A better picture of apparently the same piece is available here



...except its not the same as mine. Patrick's piece is is smaller than mine, steel, and has different dies on both sides. It's "got to be" related in some way, though, and both of them have "got to be" related to the GM Roller Press cents. Somehow!

The GM cents are listed in Pollock. Neither Patrick's piece nor mine is listed.

Does anyone have a copy of the May, 1962, Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine to see which one is picture there?

drwstr123

LINKY

speety

Reminded me of an old Harlan J Berk article... that none other than the good Capt. wrote.

"A famous "nonsense design" modern pattern is the General Motors roller press trial piece, coined by the tens of thousands at the GM Tech Center in Warren, Michigan where GM was trying to engineer a revolutionary new coin press for the U.S. Mint that employed a reported 144 coin dies in two opposing rollers that punched blanks out of a metal strip and struck them into coins in one continuous motion. The dies used for the testing model, which was ultimately deemed a failure when it was realized that a single broken die would force the stoppage of the entire 72-pair array, were prepared by the U.S. Mint using a female head that vaguely duplicated the relief of Lincoln's head and a wreath that vaguely imitated that of the pre-1959 "wheatback" cent, with gibberish lettering that simulated the inscriptions of same.

Because the design did not include a denomination, security was lax and many pieces left the Tech Center as novelties. Today they are usually collected by die variety, based on letters and numbers mechanically etched into the faces of the dies in a last-ditch effort to isolate and identify the product of each die pair after striking, so that defective strikes could be destroyed if one die failed without having to shut down the entire press.

An earlier nonsense die pair illustrated on P. 1295 of the May, 1962 Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine is traceable to the U.S. Mint by its inscriptions which are similar to those found on the GM piece, namely ACFLN vs. ACFH, OPRSV vs. KOPRW, and the number 2358 found on both. The obverse bears a Liberty Head with flowing hair of the style favored by Mint engraver Frank Gasparro, but no inscription. Nothing else is known to me about the piece, though I might speculate that it was connected to the change in the composition of the cent which occurred in 1962 when tin was eliminated. I would also presume it legal to be held."

jonathanb

...and I obviously missed the HJB article as well. That answers the question of what is pictured in the Numismatic Scrapbook article -- the text matches the Patrick piece, not mine. Thanks, speety.

Ed, you make a very interesting observation about the 1945 Assay Commission medal. The Liberty on this piece and the AC medal is clearly related to the Libertas Americana design... but there are differences, and this one actually matches the Assay Commission medal more closely. It's too bad that the details in this one are weak, and I can't tell for sure... but if it's not an exact match, it's pretty near.

Aegis3

<< <i>

...except its not the same as mine. Patrick's piece is is smaller than mine, steel, and has different dies on both sides. It's "got to be" related in some way, though, and both of them have "got to be" related to the GM Roller Press cents. Somehow! >>



That's the piece I think I was thinking of. So yours is new to me.

jonathanb

Oh, wait. I read the HJB article backwards. The one described in the 1962 article does have lettering that matches mine. Could anyone post a scan of that page?

CaptHenway

<< <i>Sometimes I post stuff here and I have no clue what it is. Sometimes I know exactly. This one is in the middle -- I'm pretty sure that I have half of the story.

This piece appears to be copper-plated aluminum. The obverse and reverse are bright copper color, while the edge is aluminum color. It is very light, 1.478 grams, and 20.8 mm diameter. It is 12-sided. The text on the reverse reads ACFLN / 2358 / OPRSV

Give yourself credit if you can come up even with half of the story. As far as I can tell, this piece is something of a numismatic mystery. I found references back to the early 1960s (does anyone have copies of Numismatic Scrapbook from that era?) and apparently nobody knows exactly where it came from... although there seems to be some agreement about what it "must be" related to...

>>



These are listed (but not illustrated) in the "Coin World Comprehensive Catalog & Encyclopedia," which I co-wrote, on P. 357.
TD

CaptHenway

<< <i>Four minutes from post to response. Sheesh. It's really hard to stump this board!

There is a long writeup on the General Motors Roller Press cents here, along with scans of a couple articles from Coin World in the mid-1990s. Towards the end of the article is a very fuzzy picture of an item that looks a lot like mine. A better picture of apparently the same piece is available here



...except its not the same as mine. Patrick's piece is is smaller than mine, steel, and has different dies on both sides. It's "got to be" related in some way, though, and both of them have "got to be" related to the GM Roller Press cents. Somehow!

The GM cents are listed in Pollock. Neither Patrick's piece nor mine is listed.

Does anyone have a copy of the May, 1962, Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine to see which one is picture there? >>



These are on P. 358 of the Coin World Encyclopedia. They were also illustrated in the August, 1979 and May, 1980 "The Numismatist."
TD

fcloud

Does anyone know what kind of value on these types?

PawPaul

hey ; is this a U.S coin ?

jonathanb

I was going through some old stuff and came across this again, so TTT in case anyone know about new information that has turned up in the 6+ years since I originally posted it.

(I checked the Newman Numismatic Portal. No luck there either. The Numismatist archives have the references cited earlier in the thread but I don't see anything beyond those.)

Zoins

Was there an attempt to get these catalogued in Pollock?

jonathanb

No attempt by me.

Personally I find the little bit of information available on these pieces to be a little too vague for my taste. I agree that they "feel like" GM Roller Press patterns. Still, I'd be a lot happier with some more facts to back that up before seeing them in Pollock or Judd.

AUandAG

This is soooo funny. I found one once in a jar in a collection I bought. It was mixed in with world coins and I just sold the lot as such. I actually thought it was Russian with the weird lettering...It was copper and 12 sided. I remember holding it and just staring at it trying to make sense of the lettering.....no could do and just tossed it back into the mix. I did have a passing thought that it may have been a game piece of some sort.
so weird....can I have a do over????

bob:(

Boosibri

I imagine that Cardinal may know given his focus on Libertas Americana

CaptHenway

@AUandAG said:
This is soooo funny. I found one once in a jar in a collection I bought. It was mixed in with world coins and I just sold the lot as such. I actually thought it was Russian with the weird lettering...It was copper and 12 sided. I remember holding it and just staring at it trying to make sense of the lettering.....no could do and just tossed it back into the mix. I did have a passing thought that it may have been a game piece of some sort.
so weird....can I have a do over????

bob:(

Ouch!

ricko

@AUandAG... That hurts.... but understandable.... so many things turn up in junk collections.... Cheers, RickO

Cameonut

I've bought and sold a number of the roller press cents (still have several) - but nothing that looks like the OP's example.

The author of the Coin World article from 1995 believes the Libertas Americana pieces were not part of the GM roller press experiment. At pointed out in the post by Speety, the setup included up to 72 dies, but the article also points out that there was a smaller prototype machine as well. In either case, it was felt that steel planchets were not likely struck on the roller presses due to the increased force required to impress multiple die sets at once. It was his supposition that the Libertas Americana pieces were more likely struck in the mint in Philadelphia.

The OP's example is not steel so if it is indeed copper plated aluminum, that adds to the mystery. Another theory is that these could have been produced as alloy trials, which would likely happen at the mint. As an aside, I used to work in a plating shop and copper plating of aluminum would not likely be something that would be done in a high volume operation.

I see that the 2010 references to the Coin World Article seem to have vanished. As I was the one who provided full page scans to USRCI in 2005, I probably have them buried somewhere in my files. In any event, the articles were published on May 29th 1995 and June 5,1995. Author is Eric Larson.

Zoins

@Cameonut said:
I've bought and sold a number of the roller press cents (still have several) - but nothing that looks like the OP's example.

The author of the Coin World article from 1995 believes the Libertas Americana pieces were not part of the GM roller press experiment. At pointed out in the post by Speety, the setup included up to 72 dies, but the article also points out that there was a smaller prototype machine as well. In either case, it was felt that steel planchets were not likely struck on the roller presses due to the increased force required to impress multiple die sets at once. It was his supposition that the Libertas Americana pieces were more likely struck in the mint in Philadelphia.

The OP's example is not steel so if it is indeed copper plated aluminum, that adds to the mystery. Another theory is that these could have been produced as alloy trials, which would likely happen at the mint. As an aside, I used to work in a plating shop and copper plating of aluminum would not likely be something that would be done in a high volume operation.

I see that the 2010 references to the Coin World Article seem to have vanished. As I was the one who provided full page scans to USRCI in 2005, I probably have them buried somewhere in my files. In any event, the articles were published on May 29th 1995 and June 5,1995. Author is Eric Larson.

If these were struck at the Mint, would it be likely that some record of them would have surfaced by now?

Cameonut

Good point Zoins - certainly adds to the mystery.

Aegis3

I suspect the reverse of the ACFLN piece is based on the reverse of early/mid 20th century Honduran minor coins. Has the same 5 sets of berries and leafs, and the central legend is in a light circle.

RogerB

The project files should be in NARA either Philadelphia or College Park - but I have not looked for them.

Zoins

@Aegis3 said:
I suspect the reverse of the ACFLN piece is based on the reverse of early/mid 20th century Honduran minor coins. Has the same 5 sets of berries and leafs, and the central legend is in a light circle.

Were the Honduran coins struck by the US Mint?

I looked up a few via photos and the design does seem similar, but I haven't found an exact match for the engraving yet.

Here's one:

Aegis3

Try 5 centavos, KM 72.1/72.2

Justacommeman

I miss speety

mark

Zoins

@speety said:
Reminded me of an old Harlan J Berk article... that none other than the good Capt. wrote.

"A famous "nonsense design" modern pattern is the General Motors roller press trial piece, coined by the tens of thousands at the GM Tech Center in Warren, Michigan where GM was trying to engineer a revolutionary new coin press for the U.S. Mint that employed a reported 144 coin dies in two opposing rollers that punched blanks out of a metal strip and struck them into coins in one continuous motion. The dies used for the testing model, which was ultimately deemed a failure when it was realized that a single broken die would force the stoppage of the entire 72-pair array, were prepared by the U.S. Mint using a female head that vaguely duplicated the relief of Lincoln's head and a wreath that vaguely imitated that of the pre-1959 "wheatback" cent, with gibberish lettering that simulated the inscriptions of same.

Because the design did not include a denomination, security was lax and many pieces left the Tech Center as novelties. Today they are usually collected by die variety, based on letters and numbers mechanically etched into the faces of the dies in a last-ditch effort to isolate and identify the product of each die pair after striking, so that defective strikes could be destroyed if one die failed without having to shut down the entire press.

An earlier nonsense die pair illustrated on P. 1295 of the May, 1962 Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine is traceable to the U.S. Mint by its inscriptions which are similar to those found on the GM piece, namely ACFLN vs. ACFH, OPRSV vs. KOPRW, and the number 2358 found on both. The obverse bears a Liberty Head with flowing hair of the style favored by Mint engraver Frank Gasparro, but no inscription. Nothing else is known to me about the piece, though I might speculate that it was connected to the change in the composition of the cent which occurred in 1962 when tin was eliminated. I would also presume it legal to be held."

I just looked at @speety's post and @CaptHenway's article again in more detail. It seems like there may be enough information to begin attributing, minimally, @jonathanb's "ACFLN 2358 OPRSV" piece in the OP to the US Mint via the ACFLN and OPRSV inscriptions from US Mint dies and illustration on P. 1295 of the May, 1962 Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine. If so, it seems like there's a trail to get this listed as a US Mint pattern in Judd. Seems like more information is still necessary for the Patrick "Liberty ACFH KOPRW 2358" piece though they look related.

@RogerB @MrEureka @CaptHenway What would it take to get enough information for "ACFLN 2358 OPRSV" listed as a US Mint pattern in Judd?

CaptHenway

I do not know the criteria for getting it listed in Judd, but I believe it should be there.
TD

RogerB

The roller experiments really should be fully documented. I think the files are mostly in NARA Philadelphia.

How to get these, or the updated 1942 experiments, into Judd is a problem. Research exposes so many more varieties and details that Judd editions - at least in the present minimalist format - aren't able to handle the information. For the 1942 materials, Judd is almost 100% inaccurate.

Zoins

@RogerB said:
The roller experiments really should be fully documented. I think the files are mostly in NARA Philadelphia.

Good idea. When is your next trip to Philadelphia?

It seems like it would be useful to have these the roller experiments definitively documented and also see if these were related to the 1962 cent composition changes as mentioned by TD.

@RogerB said:
How to get these, or the updated 1942 experiments, into Judd is a problem. Research exposes so many more varieties and details that Judd editions - at least in the present minimalist format - aren't able to handle the information. For the 1942 materials, Judd is almost 100% inaccurate.

Is there a next edition of Judd (or Pollock) on the books to add and correct information?

Zoins

By the way, there are some excellent photos of the roller press on this thread.

Apparently 100,000s of pattern coins were struck as the press could mint 10,000 coins per minute during successful runs.

RogerB

1. I do not have the time or resources to research the roller experiments. Maybe someone close to Philadelphia would be interested. (When NARA moved from downtown to a suburban location, they eliminated the ability to take Amtrak to their facility. That means a long drive + hotel, etc.)
2. The roller pieces are NOT patterns. They are experimental pieces made to test equipment, and not proposed designs of alloy changes.

Zoins

It seems like the "ACFLN 2358 OPRSV" pieces in the OP could be considered patterns from two perspectives.

First, @CaptHenway speculates the "ACFLN 2358 OPRSV" piece in the OP could have been created to test alloy changes when tin was removed from the cent in 1962. It also seems like there's information the dies were created by the US Mint.

Second, if these do turn out to be roller pieces, one category of patterns, trial pieces, covers testing the coining process and coinage production that could cover the roller pieces more generically. For example, here's the trial piece pattern definition from the Harry W. Bass, Jr Foundation:

Trial Pieces: Coins struck to test the dies, the coining process, or some other aspect of coinage production. There is some overlap between this category and experimental pieces. Also, certain trial pieces – indeed, most of them – were really made as numismatic delicacies. Such is the nomenclature with which specialists contend.

Too bad about NARA's move to the suburbs. Would be nice if they had better accessibility.

Zoins

Regarding the roller press pieces being patterns, there seems to be acceptance of these as patterns because in addition to having pattern definitions cover pieces used in testing of coining process and coinage production, the GM pieces are listed in Pollock and USPatterns.com.

Seems like the next step is to track down the May 1962 issue of the Numismatic Scrapbook to see what it says about the "ACFLN 2358 OPRSV" pieces being traced to the US Mint. And then on to NARA after that.

Zoins

Given the little information there is on these pieces, here's the info on Patrick's piece for posterity in case the page ever goes away:

EXTREMELY RARE & IMPORTANT
EXPERIMENTAL ONE CENT PIECE
UNDATED experimental one cent piece. If not struck at the U.S. Mint itself then undoubtedly struck by a private firm at the mint’s direction, possibly from mint prepared dies. The goal of this experiment may have been the developement of a new type of coining press and/or metal alloy for use by the U.S. government. The obverse has a plain border with a head of Liberty, facing left, with flowing hair. The design is very similar to the famous Libertas Americana medal, lacking the Liberty Cap and pole, originally designed by Augustin Dupre' near the end of the eighteenth century. Of American coins the device most resembles the 1792 disme. The reverse appears to be a wreath of cotton tied with a bow of ribbon at the base all within a denticled border. Inside the wreath is the nonsense legend in three lines: ACFH / KOPRW / 2358. This plain edge piece is approximately the same thickness as a U.S. penny, weighs 2.8 grams, is 19mm (.748 inches) in diameter and struck in a steel alloy. This last is indicated by a specific gravity of 7.657, the fact that it is highly magnetic and steel in color. The die alignment is the same as a U.S. coin although the reverse is positioned off 20 degrees in a clockwise direction. These dimensions and properties compare closely with the 2.7 grams and 19mm diameter given by Yeoman in his Guide Book of U.S. Coins for the 1943 zinc coated steel cents and form the basis for our conjecture that this interesting coin was intended to be a cent. Sharply struck, about uncirculated condition with some original mint luster remaining. We note two light rust spots in the reverse field over AC and below right ribbon end which serve to identify this specimen. A very important coin and currently the only specimen we know of. Unlisted in the recent Pollack book on U.S. pattern coins.
$3495.00.
The composition of this piece suggests that it originated during World War II when the U.S. Government was searching for alternative metals to replace the copper used in U.S. coinage, particularly the cent. In spite of this, we think it is far more likely that this coin had its orgin in the early 1960’s during the coin shortage in this country. At that time General Motors was experimenting with the manufacture of a roller press to dramatically increase coin production for the U.S. Mint.The reverse die closely matches the known General Motors roller pennies in the composition of the wreath and includes the same three lines of nonsence legend. The most notable differences are another, smaller line of nonsense, the addition of the letter G and the lack of reverse denticles around the border.This very interesting and important experimental cent resurfaced at the January, 1995 FUN Convention in Orlando, Florida. Prior to its rediscovery, this identical specimen (identifiable by the above mentioned rust pits) was last reported on page 1070 of the May, 1980 issue of the Numismatist where it was pictured. A photo of a similiar piece was submitted by Albert Kramer of New York City and published in the May, 1962 Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine on page 1295. That coin was perhaps struck from the same obverse die but had an entirely different reverse. Both reverses had the same numerials, 2358, but the wreaths differ as well as the border treatment and nonsence legend The whereabouts of that piece is unknown, as is its composition and vital statistics. Other similar General Motors roller pieces, commonly referred to as "pennies", were struck from different obverse dies and are occasionally encountered at coin shows and in auctions. The above specimen is significant because it was struck from different dies than the "pennies" as well as a completely different composition. The piece is unlisted in the recent Pollack book on U.S. pattern coins which features such pieces in an appendix.

Zoins

I was able to track down the May 1962 Numismatic Scrapbook. Unfortunately, the article doesn't provide much information but it does have a dated photo from a named owner, Albert Kramer of NYC. I have one of these now and the previous owner said the specimen was the only one he ran across in 40 years.

Time to track down the other articles:

CaptHenway: These are on P. 358 of the Coin World Encyclopedia. They were also illustrated in the August, 1979 and May, 1980 "The Numismatist."

Cameonut: I see that the 2010 references to the Coin World Article seem to have vanished. As I was the one who provided full page scans to USRCI in 2005, I probably have them buried somewhere in my files. In any event, the articles were published on May 29th 1995 and June 5,1995. Author is Eric Larson.

CaptHenway

ttt

CaptHenway

@Cameonut said:
I've bought and sold a number of the roller press cents (still have several) - but nothing that looks like the OP's example.

The author of the Coin World article from 1995 believes the Libertas Americana pieces were not part of the GM roller press experiment. At pointed out in the post by Speety, the setup included up to 72 dies, but the article also points out that there was a smaller prototype machine as well. In either case, it was felt that steel planchets were not likely struck on the roller presses due to the increased force required to impress multiple die sets at once. It was his supposition that the Libertas Americana pieces were more likely struck in the mint in Philadelphia.

The OP's example is not steel so if it is indeed copper plated aluminum, that adds to the mystery. Another theory is that these could have been produced as alloy trials, which would likely happen at the mint. As an aside, I used to work in a plating shop and copper plating of aluminum would not likely be something that would be done in a high volume operation.

I see that the 2010 references to the Coin World Article seem to have vanished. As I was the one who provided full page scans to USRCI in 2005, I probably have them buried somewhere in my files. In any event, the articles were published on May 29th 1995 and June 5,1995. Author is Eric Larson.

Does anybody have links to this 1995 Coin World article they could please post here?

jonathanb

Hmm... wouldn't it be neat if the Coin World and Numismatic News archives could make it into the Newman Numismatic Portal eventually...?

Cameonut

@CaptHenway
As it turns out, I have pdf scans of the 1995 CW article that are not easily linkable for me. (7 pages total)
I'd be willing to email them to you if you PM your email address to me.
I hope that is helpful.

Cameonut

@CaptHenway
I did not realize you could drag/drop pdf files to these posts. Please find the pages attached - I scanned them on a copier back in 2005 and don't have the ability to resave them rotated in the proper position or combined in one file. They are easy enough to rotate once opened.

I was enamored with these pieces as I worked for GM starting in 1976 but didn't realize this project was undertaken until the late '90s. By then it became extra difficult to find anyone with specific knowledge. However, local collectors and dealers were a good source of information and the occasional piece offered for sale.

Here goes:

CaptHenway

Gottem! Thanks.

Namvet69

This is why I love CU. I just received a numismatic history lesson while having my first cup of coffee before d

Coinosaurus

@jonathanb said:
Hmm... wouldn't it be neat if the Coin World and Numismatic News archives could make it into the Newman Numismatic Portal eventually...?

You can now search (but not view) Coin World on Newman Portal. Use advanced search page (https://nnp.wustl.edu/Library/AdvancedSearchForm, enter "periodicals" in content type, and "Coin World" in title. Once you have identified articles of interest you can acquire them from the ANS library (or possibly other sources).

cardinal

@Boosibri said:
I imagine that Cardinal may know given his focus on Libertas Americana

I have seen these same pictures brought up periodically, but I've never learned their origins. I do believe these were produced post-WWII, but not based on the original Libertas Americana medals. I believe they were based on the obverse of the 1945 Assay Medal. Check out the comparison:

Zoins

@Cameonut said:
Please find the pages attached - I scanned them on a copier back in 2005 and don't have the ability to resave them rotated in the proper position or combined in one file. They are easy enough to rotate once opened.

Thanks for posting these @Cameonut. Here's a version with them rotated and combined.

I'm still very surprised that no information is available on the ACFLN 2358 OPRSV pieces which have been around at least since 1962.

Baley

@cardinal said:

Super cool medal! Clearly a hat (rather than the usual shovel) but why so small?
Or is it 15 feet behind miss Liberty?

Cameonut

@Zoins said:

@Cameonut said:
Please find the pages attached - I scanned them on a copier back in 2005 and don't have the ability to resave them rotated in the proper position or combined in one file. They are easy enough to rotate once opened.

Thanks for posting these @Cameonut. Here's a version with them rotated and combined.

I'm still very surprised that no information is available on the ACFLN 2358 OPRSV pieces which have been around since 1962.

@Zoins - thanks for combining the files - been wanting to do that for years and don't have Acrobat Pro.