@Boosibri said:
I imagine that Cardinal may know given his focus on Libertas Americana
I have seen these same pictures brought up periodically, but I've never learned their origins. I do believe these were produced post-WWII, but not based on the original Libertas Americana medals. I believe they were based on the obverse of the 1945 Assay Medal. Check out the comparison:
I believe you are correct. There is a fine tradition of the Mint borrowing designs from itself. Look at the 1942 "plastic cents" that Roger Burdette has so excellently catalogued. Neither design was original, and one dates back to the mid-19th century!
Are we sure that there was no pre-1945 use of this Liberty Head? I am not aware of one.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
One thing that has fascinated me about these various pieces for decades is why certain apparently gibberish letter combinations are repeated or nearly repeated, and why the pseudo-date 2358 was used multiple times. If you were an engraver creating a nonsense die just to see how things would strike up, why not just grab various letter or number punches and let fly?
Either there was a lot of "this is how we've always done it" floating around the Mint, or maybe 2358 was Gilroy Robert's locker number in high school and he didn't want to forget it!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Boosibri said:
I imagine that Cardinal may know given his focus on Libertas Americana
I have seen these same pictures brought up periodically, but I've never learned their origins. I do believe these were produced post-WWII, but not based on the original Libertas Americana medals. I believe they were based on the obverse of the 1945 Assay Medal. Check out the comparison:
I believe you are correct. There is a fine tradition of the Mint borrowing designs from itself. Look at the 1942 "plastic cents" that Roger Burdette has so excellently catalogued. Neither design was original, and one dates back to the mid-19th century!
Are we sure that there was no pre-1945 use of this Liberty Head? I am not aware of one.
Over a long period of time, I have searched for the various images of the Libertas Americana liberty head (and I continue to do so), and I have never seen any that pre-dated 1945.
I often think of these in relation to the Lippe Es Mysor GM pieces and just ran across this piece with a State of Pennsylvania reverse that was examined by John Dannreuther (JD) Saul Teichman, and Fred Weinberg. Any more info on these?
This appears to be a recent discovery as it was posted in The E-Sylum: Volume 20, Number 30, July 23, 2017, Article 23.
In looking through the CoinWorld article posted by @Cameonut, Eric M. Larson speculates that the Jesse Patrick specimen may be a US Mint piece:
A more likely explanation is that the Libertas Americana issue was struck at the Philadelphia Mint, as part of its experimentation with other metals to strike cents. "A steel piece couldn't have been struck at the Tech Center using the [roller press] machinery we had," he said.
Since the reverse of the Libertas Americana piece bears a design used by the Mint for experimental or trial coins, it is reasonable to conclude the dies for this issue were made by the government. But it seems very unlikely that the Libertas Americana issue was produced by the roller press at the Tech Center. In visually comparing the Libertas Americana issue with the early roller press issues, it may be tempting to conclude that the Libertas Americana issue was also a aroller press issue. At this juncture, there is insufficient evidence for me to conclude that the Libertas Americana piece is an issue from the GM roller press.
@Zoins said:
I often think of these in relation to the Lippe Es Mysor GM pieces and just ran across this piece with a State of Pennsylvania reverse that was examined by John Dannreuther (JD) Saul Teichman, and Fred Weinberg. Any more info on these?
This appears to be a recent discovery as it was posted in The E-Sylum: Volume 20, Number 30, July 23, 2017, Article 23.
This is fascinating. I had missed this in the eSylum and was totally unaware of a 26 mm LYPPE ES MYSOR die.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
One thing that has fascinated me about these various pieces for decades is why certain apparently gibberish letter combinations are repeated or nearly repeated, and why the pseudo-date 2358 was used multiple times. If you were an engraver creating a nonsense die just to see how things would strike up, why not just grab various letter or number punches and let fly?
Either there was a lot of "this is how we've always done it" floating around the Mint, or maybe 2358 was Gilroy Robert's locker number in high school and he didn't want to forget it!
Good point about these being related due to the gibberish letter combinations and consistent 2358 number across all 3 types.
@MrEureka said:
I think they should be listed somewhere in Judd. Not in the main text, because they were not struck at the US Mint, but in an appendix.
Also, here's a link to the Ken Potter article on these pieces. It settles a lot of questions.
@jonathanb How does your specimen compare to this:
Ken Potter said:
A possibly unique, 12-sided 5¢ size "Libertas Americana" metallurgical trial token has been discovered in a "junk box" by a Michigan collector. It was reported by Michigan dealer, Greg Mellon, who was given the piece by the finder, Joe Zaffern, for research. The discovery follows closely on the heels of the resurfacing a 1¢ size piece purchased by Jesse Patrick at the January 1995 FUN Convention in Orlando Florida, as revealed in stories in Numismatic News and Coin World in 1995. Both pieces exhibit a virtually identical obverse motif; a bust of Liberty with flowing hair, facing left. It was obviously patterned after Augustin Dupre's (1782) Libertas Americana medal, sans the Liberty cap and pole.
Both of the tokens share similar reverse designs with a wreath encircling nonsensical legends and the number: "2358".
[...]
The "Mellon specimen" is 12-sided (though it does look somewhat round when viewed straight on), and is of the approximate size and specifications of a Canadian war-time "steel" 5¢ piece. The token, (being difficult to obtain an exact measurement of, due to variances on its edge), is approximately 20.775 mm in diameter (taken from top to bottom, i.e., 12:00 to 6:00), is struck on a probable cupro-nickel plated steel planchet with a specific gravity of 7.9. Its edges are rough and granular, and in some areas recessed, with the planchet being comprised of three bonded layers similar to our current "sandwich metal" clad coins. The planchet is highly magnetic, exhibits a shell that is extremely similar if not identical in color to our current clad coinage (and homogeneous cupro-nickel 5¢ piece), and shows a dark core with obvious traces of surface-rust that is indicative of steel. It is struck in "coin alignment" with its reverse rotated 200o counter-clockwise. Its obverse appears to exhibit more basined fields than the 1¢-size variety.
Mine is struck in aluminum, very similar otherwise.
I saw a copper-nickel example on eBay maybe 5 years ago. Unfortunately I didn't see it until after the listing ended. I don't know who bought that piece.
@jonathanb said:
Mine is struck in aluminum, very similar otherwise.
Thanks for confirming. It does look similar from the photos.
I saw a copper-nickel example on eBay maybe 5 years ago. Unfortunately I didn't see it until after the listing ended. I don't know who bought that piece.
There's a reason I keep looking for information on this piece
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
I think these are pretty safe to add without spillover effect. The Lincoln Mysor issue are confirmed to be related to the US Mint and already listed in Pollock and these are associated with the Mysor issue due to the text and 2358 number.
@Byers said:
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
I think these are pretty safe to add without spillover effect. The Lincoln Mysor issue are confirmed to be related to the US Mint and already listed in Pollock and these are associated with the Mysor issue due to the text and 2358 number.
If not that, perhaps a Mint Error News article
And... here's the Mint Error News article!
Thanks for publishing it Mike @Byers! I got some great feedback on it!
It's great to have a publication like MEN to publish references like this!
@Byers said:
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
I think these are pretty safe to add without spillover effect. The Lincoln Mysor issue are confirmed to be related to the US Mint and already listed in Pollock and these are associated with the Mysor issue due to the text and 2358 number.
If not that, perhaps a Mint Error News article
And... here's the Mint Error News article!
Thanks for publishing it Mike @Byers! I got some great feedback on it!
It's great to have a publication like MEN to publish references like this!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
I think these are pretty safe to add without spillover effect. The Lincoln Mysor issue are confirmed to be related to the US Mint and already listed in Pollock and these are associated with the Mysor issue due to the text and 2358 number.
If not that, perhaps a Mint Error News article
And... here's the Mint Error News article!
Thanks for publishing it Mike @Byers! I got some great feedback on it!
It's great to have a publication like MEN to publish references like this!
A very excellent summation of the field, though you missed my contributions in the pattern section of the late and unlamented "Coin World Encyclopedia." Most people did. That is what happens when you commission people to write a book but then fail to spend any money to promote it.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
I believe you are correct. There is a fine tradition of the Mint borrowing designs from itself. Look at the 1942 "plastic cents" that Roger Burdette has so excellently catalogued. Neither design was original, and one dates back to the mid-19th century!
Are we sure that there was no pre-1945 use of this Liberty Head? I am not aware of one.
One thing that has fascinated me about these various pieces for decades is why certain apparently gibberish letter combinations are repeated or nearly repeated, and why the pseudo-date 2358 was used multiple times. If you were an engraver creating a nonsense die just to see how things would strike up, why not just grab various letter or number punches and let fly?
Either there was a lot of "this is how we've always done it" floating around the Mint, or maybe 2358 was Gilroy Robert's locker number in high school and he didn't want to forget it!
Over a long period of time, I have searched for the various images of the Libertas Americana liberty head (and I continue to do so), and I have never seen any that pre-dated 1945.
I often think of these in relation to the Lippe Es Mysor GM pieces and just ran across this piece with a State of Pennsylvania reverse that was examined by John Dannreuther (JD) Saul Teichman, and Fred Weinberg. Any more info on these?
This appears to be a recent discovery as it was posted in The E-Sylum: Volume 20, Number 30, July 23, 2017, Article 23.
http://www.coinbooks.org/v20/esylum_v20n30a23.html
Thanks for combining and posting the article.
In looking through the CoinWorld article posted by @Cameonut, Eric M. Larson speculates that the Jesse Patrick specimen may be a US Mint piece:
This is fascinating. I had missed this in the eSylum and was totally unaware of a 26 mm LYPPE ES MYSOR die.
Old Thread Update
Any new info on these?
Should these be listed in Judd @MrEureka?
That must have been a sight to see a steam coin press in operation being pulled by a team of 6 horses. Peace Roy
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I think they should be listed somewhere in Judd. Not in the main text, because they were not struck at the US Mint, but in an appendix.
Also, here's a link to the Ken Potter article on these pieces. It settles a lot of questions.
https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/groprenreoro.html
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Good point about these being related due to the gibberish letter combinations and consistent 2358 number across all 3 types.
Great article.
Ken wrote another article on these here that further covers a piece that looks like @jonathanb's piece in the OP as well as Jesse Patrick's piece.
5¢ Size "Libertas Americana" Metallurgical Trial Piece Surfaces
Originally Published by Krause Publications
https://koinpro.tripod.com/Articles/LibertasToken.htm
@jonathanb How does your specimen compare to this:
Mine is struck in aluminum, very similar otherwise.
I saw a copper-nickel example on eBay maybe 5 years ago. Unfortunately I didn't see it until after the listing ended. I don't know who bought that piece.
Thanks for confirming. It does look similar from the photos.
There's a reason I keep looking for information on this piece
Maybe listed in the appendix , but that opens the door to many other issues…
I think these are pretty safe to add without spillover effect. The Lincoln Mysor issue are confirmed to be related to the US Mint and already listed in Pollock and these are associated with the Mysor issue due to the text and 2358 number.
If not that, perhaps a Mint Error News article
And... here's the Mint Error News article!
Thanks for publishing it Mike @Byers! I got some great feedback on it!
It's great to have a publication like MEN to publish references like this!
https://minterrornews.com/features-3-2-23-the-libertas-americana-metallurgical-trial-pieces.html
John- thank you for the extensive research on your article for Mint Error News!
https://minterrornews.com/features-3-2-23-the-libertas-americana-metallurgical-trial-pieces.html
A very excellent summation of the field, though you missed my contributions in the pattern section of the late and unlamented "Coin World Encyclopedia." Most people did. That is what happens when you commission people to write a book but then fail to spend any money to promote it.
TD