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Article: "PNG Adopts Coin “Doctoring” Definition"
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PNG Adopts Coin “Doctoring” Definition
By Professional Numismatists Guild on Thursday, July 29, 2010
The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) has created a definition of coin “doctoring” and now officially included it as one of the prohibitions in the organization’s By-Laws.
“The deliberate and unacceptable alteration of a coin in an effort to deceive is a complex matter. Everyone seems to know what coin ‘doctoring’ means, but it’s a difficult thing to concisely and substantively define,” said Paul Montgomery, PNG President.
“After extensive discussions and consultation with both Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), the official grading service of PNG, and with executives of the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), the PNG has created its first formal definition of coin doctoring,” Montgomery added.
PNG already required disclosure of information about altered coins.
“Section seven of the PNG Code of Ethics specifically states that PNG member-dealers must refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to their customers. Section four of the Code prohibits misrepresenting the quality of a coin,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“Adding a more specific definition of coin doctoring is a major step toward helping the PNG review any complaints against members accused of compromising ethical standards established by the organization. We now have an enforceable criterion for our membership.”
The PNG Board of Directors has adopted this initial definition:
Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value.
Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter.
Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring.
“As of today, no one has filed any formal complaints with PNG or presented evidence directly to the PNG of alleged coin doctoring by any of its members. However, we have been closely monitoring developments, and are taking action regarding a civil court lawsuit over alleged coin doctoring that was filed by PCGS in May of this year,” said Brueggeman.
Founded in 1955, the Professional Numismatists Guild is a nonprofit organization composed of many of the top rare coin and paper money dealers in the United States and other countries. PNG member-dealers must adhere to a strict Code of Ethics in the buying and selling of numismatic items. For additional information and the locations of PNG member-dealers, call (760) 728-1300 or visit online at www.PNGdealers.com.
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By Professional Numismatists Guild on Thursday, July 29, 2010
The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) has created a definition of coin “doctoring” and now officially included it as one of the prohibitions in the organization’s By-Laws.
“The deliberate and unacceptable alteration of a coin in an effort to deceive is a complex matter. Everyone seems to know what coin ‘doctoring’ means, but it’s a difficult thing to concisely and substantively define,” said Paul Montgomery, PNG President.
“After extensive discussions and consultation with both Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), the official grading service of PNG, and with executives of the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), the PNG has created its first formal definition of coin doctoring,” Montgomery added.
PNG already required disclosure of information about altered coins.
“Section seven of the PNG Code of Ethics specifically states that PNG member-dealers must refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to their customers. Section four of the Code prohibits misrepresenting the quality of a coin,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“Adding a more specific definition of coin doctoring is a major step toward helping the PNG review any complaints against members accused of compromising ethical standards established by the organization. We now have an enforceable criterion for our membership.”
The PNG Board of Directors has adopted this initial definition:
Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value.
Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter.
Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring.
“As of today, no one has filed any formal complaints with PNG or presented evidence directly to the PNG of alleged coin doctoring by any of its members. However, we have been closely monitoring developments, and are taking action regarding a civil court lawsuit over alleged coin doctoring that was filed by PCGS in May of this year,” said Brueggeman.
Founded in 1955, the Professional Numismatists Guild is a nonprofit organization composed of many of the top rare coin and paper money dealers in the United States and other countries. PNG member-dealers must adhere to a strict Code of Ethics in the buying and selling of numismatic items. For additional information and the locations of PNG member-dealers, call (760) 728-1300 or visit online at www.PNGdealers.com.
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<< <i>That's a step in the right direction, I hope the ANA adopts it too. >>
It's purely lip service until they actually take action against any members who doctor coins.
The provision below was already in effect and I don't see where it made much, if any difference.
"7.To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers."
Dipping can be included in this category. It alters the surface but does not conceal defects. As doctoring is "usually to diminish or conceal defects", dipping would be altering but not concealing
<< <i>
<< <i>That's a step in the right direction, I hope the ANA adopts it too. >>
It's purely lip service until they actually take action against any members who doctor coins.
The provision below was already in effect and I don't see where it made much, if any difference.
"7.To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers." >>
“As of today, no one has filed any formal complaints with PNG or presented evidence directly to the PNG of alleged coin doctoring by any of its members. However, we have been closely monitoring developments, and are taking action regarding a civil court lawsuit over alleged coin doctoring that was filed by PCGS in May of this year,” said Brueggeman
Someone needs to file specific charges, IMHO.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That's a step in the right direction, I hope the ANA adopts it too. >>
It's purely lip service until they actually take action against any members who doctor coins.
The provision below was already in effect and I don't see where it made much, if any difference.
"7.To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers." >>
“As of today, no one has filed any formal complaints with PNG or presented evidence directly to the PNG of alleged coin doctoring by any of its members. However, we have been closely monitoring developments, and are taking action regarding a civil court lawsuit over alleged coin doctoring that was filed by PCGS in May of this year,” said Brueggeman
Someone needs to file specific charges, IMHO. >>
So Julian, if you thought or knew that a fellow PNG member had been doctoring coins, you would be of the opinion that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it? If your answer is that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it, the problems are destined to continue. And if you feel that you should do something about it, what would that be? Thanks.
Thinking isn't good enough, Mark. Charges are serious. If I knew, which would be highly skeptical, I could tell Bob and the PNG board, but they are not the "district attorney". Someone needs to file specific charges, not speculative thoughts. I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>So Julian, if you thought or knew that a fellow PNG member had been doctoring coins, you would be of the opinion that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it? If your answer is that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it, the problems are destined to continue. And if you feel that you should do something about it, what would that be? Thanks.
Thinking isn't good enough, Mark. Charges are serious. If I knew, which would be highly skeptical, I could tell Bob and the PNG board, but they are not the "district attorney". Someone needs to file specific charges, not speculative thoughts. I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. >>
Thank you for your fair minded reply, Julian.
I will take you at your word that you have not seen any PNG members doctoring coins. However, I am quite confident that other PNG members have seen fellow members doctor coins and/or heard them discuss their doctoring of coins and/or doctored coins. And that if the PNG really cared about doing something substantive, it wouldn't take formal charges being filed in order to do so.
Does PNG have, as part of its membership obligations or ethics standards, an obligation to report or to otherwise take affirmative action in the event a PNG member knows of wrongdoing? Should PNG have such a policy? To me the steps described above are steps in the right direction, maybe a bit slow, but at least in the right direction. And the discussions also help to bring the coin doctoring problem toward an acceptable resolution.
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>So Julian, if you thought or knew that a fellow PNG member had been doctoring coins, you would be of the opinion that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it? If your answer is that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it, the problems are destined to continue. And if you feel that you should do something about it, what would that be? Thanks.
Thinking isn't good enough, Mark. Charges are serious. If I knew, which would be highly skeptical, I could tell Bob and the PNG board, but they are not the "district attorney". Someone needs to file specific charges, not speculative thoughts. I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. >>
Thank you for your fair minded reply, Julian.
I will take you at your word that you have not seen any PNG members doctoring coins. However, I am quite confident that other PNG members have seen fellow members doctor coins and/or heard them discuss their doctoring of coins and/or doctored coins. And that if the PNG really cared about doing something substantive, it wouldn't take formal charges being filed in order to do so. >>
I have had the pleasure of getting to know Julian a little bit and I know him to be a measured man who chooses his words carefully. I suspect when he says
<< <i>"I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. >>
he means just that and it has nothing to do with what he has heard/suspected/logically assumes/seen after the fact through the show circuit gossip grapevine as he questions the second hand nature of its relevance. I think what is really being discussed here(or we should be) is what the litmus test for action is and how responsible are the old guard of the hobby at policing it and what is the ramifications of turning a blind eye?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So Julian, if you thought or knew that a fellow PNG member had been doctoring coins, you would be of the opinion that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it? If your answer is that you shouldn't do ANYTHING about it, the problems are destined to continue. And if you feel that you should do something about it, what would that be? Thanks.
Thinking isn't good enough, Mark. Charges are serious. If I knew, which would be highly skeptical, I could tell Bob and the PNG board, but they are not the "district attorney". Someone needs to file specific charges, not speculative thoughts. I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. >>
Thank you for your fair minded reply, Julian.
I will take you at your word that you have not seen any PNG members doctoring coins. However, I am quite confident that other PNG members have seen fellow members doctor coins and/or heard them discuss their doctoring of coins and/or doctored coins. And that if the PNG really cared about doing something substantive, it wouldn't take formal charges being filed in order to do so. >>
I have had the pleasure of getting to know Julian a little bit and I know him to be a measured man who chooses his words carefully. I suspect when he says
<< <i>"I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. >>
he means just that and it has nothing to do with what he has heard/suspected/logically assumes/seen after the fact through the show circuit gossip grapevine as he questions the second hand nature of its relevance. I think what is really being discussed here(or we should be) is what the litmus test for action is and how responsible are the old guard of the hobby at policing it and what is the ramifications of turning a blind eye? >>
Well said, on all counts.
-donn-
<< <i>I wonder if this definition will be used in the PCGS suit. If so, then it is a necessary step. Before you prosecute on an issue, you should have a definition otherwise a good lawyer will argue that the whole case should be thrown out. (I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, or on any message board) >>
I imagine that the language in the PCGS dealer agreement, which presumably, the defendants signed, is what will be used in the lawsuit.
<< <i> I will take you at your word that you have not seen any PNG members doctoring coins. However, I am quite confident that other PNG members have seen fellow members doctor coins and/or heard them discuss their doctoring of coins and/or doctored coins. And that if the PNG really cared about doing something substantive, it wouldn't take formal charges being filed in order to do so. >>
Anyone want to take a stab at guessing what percentage of PNG members knowingly continue to trade in coins that are doctored, even though the member may not actually do the work themselves? Much larger than the number who actively doctor coins themselves I would suspect. Should the PNG pursue these PNG members as well?
this kind of statement is precisely why coin doctoring is ramped and unchecked ; knowledgeable people are hiding behind words in an attempt to
appear helpless and unable to do anything . ANYONE that has been around the industry and is involved in coin dealings on a regular basis
KNOWS that coin doctoring exists and is damaging the hobby significantly .
.........it pesses me off to no end when someone of Julians stature suggests something to the tune of ;
" yes - I saw the man fall dead of a gunshot wound : but I never actually saw the bullet flying thru the air "
That statement is as absurd as the State Police declaring nobody has ever come into their office and filed a formal complaint about speeders
on the Interstate ; when virtually everyone knows that the majority of cars are breaking the law and driving over the posted speed limit .
You can bet your butt that their out there with their radar guns issuing tickets .
In the court of public opinion, that is something totally different.
<< <i>" I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. "
this kind of statement is precisely why coin doctoring is ramped and unchecked ; knowledgeable people are hiding behind words in an attempt to
appear helpless and unable to do anything . ANYONE that has been around the industry and is involved in coin dealings on a regular basis
KNOWS that coin doctoring exists and is damaging the hobby significantly .
.........it pesses me off to no end when someone of Julians stature suggests something to the tune of ;
" yes - I saw the man fall dead of a gunshot wound : but I never actually saw the bullet flying thru the air " >>
Exactly what would you have a professional organization do? Should we suspend the membership of anyone that someone says doctors coins? This is quite serious. You are besmirching a man's career. We have to wait for some kind of a finding.
I have dipped lots of coins, have removed PVC from many, many coins, but I have never doctored a coin, nor have I ever seen it done. Yes, I know there are doctored coins. We have all seen them, but who did it? Who is responsible? Starting somewhere is a good first step.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
........Yes , agreed !
<< <i>
<< <i>" I have never seen anyone, PNG or not, doctoring coins. "
this kind of statement is precisely why coin doctoring is ramped and unchecked ; knowledgeable people are hiding behind words in an attempt to
appear helpless and unable to do anything . ANYONE that has been around the industry and is involved in coin dealings on a regular basis
KNOWS that coin doctoring exists and is damaging the hobby significantly .
.........it pesses me off to no end when someone of Julians stature suggests something to the tune of ;
" yes - I saw the man fall dead of a gunshot wound : but I never actually saw the bullet flying thru the air " >>
Exactly what would you have a professional organization do? Should we suspend the membership of anyone that someone says doctors coins? This is quite serious. You are besmirching a man's career. We have to wait for some kind of a finding.
I have dipped lots of coins, have removed PVC from many, many coins, but I have never doctored a coin, nor have I ever seen it done. Yes, I know there are doctored coins. We have all seen them, but who did it? Who is responsible? Starting somewhere is a good first step. >>
Julian - I think that you are looking at this too narrowly. The prohibtion is not only on doctoring coins, but on handling coins that have been doctored by others. If you saw a coin that had be re-engraved in the inventory of a fellow PNG member, would you do anything about it?
merse
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
The coin later showed up in an auction and I made a stink about it again. Nothing happened.
<< <i>I saw a big dealer at The Long Beach show that had an obviously tooled coin. I pointed it out to him and said that it should be submitted back to PCGS for review. After being shown the obvious tooling (I am sure he knew, of course), I felt it was up to him to do the right thing. Did he? No, but I couldn't do any more because I was just someone walking by. I wasn't the harmed party. But guess what - there will be a harmed party. And when they come back to the dealer, then there is a case.
The coin later showed up in an auction and I made a stink about it again. Nothing happened. >>
Perfect example, Rick. If both of you were members of the PNG - would you have brought the issue to the attention of that organization?
If self-policing is expected to work, dealer-members need to address, with the PNG, fellow dealer-members who behave similarly. Otherwise, the PNG will not be taken seriously. Waiting for the collector to get burned, and then bring a case to the PNG themselves, is not a very robust policing policy.
merse
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
when informed they have an A.T coin in their inventory : simple disagree and say they think it's N.T .
<< <i>Doctoring coins and selling Doctored coins. Two different issues. Should PNG take the same action against a member in both cases? >>
The prohibtion is not only on doctoring coins, but on handling coins that have been doctored by others
<< <i>It has been my experience , within the realm of my expertise in the series I specialize in , that even the biggest dealers -who are members of the PNG ;
when informed they have an A.T coin in their inventory : simple disagree and say they think it's N.T . >>
And I would guess that they are correct in at least some of those cases.
The only one who knows for absolute fact that a coin is undisputedly "done" is the person that "did" it .
I doubt that person would be willing to incriminate them self in court ,
and even if they did , how would they prove it - short of documenting the process on film which is highly improbable .
Now , if PCGS has a photo of a coin say that is white -and then has a photo of it at a later time toned , and it was submitted via a PNG dealer..........
then a jury might have something to sink their teeth into . But even then , to prove the PNG dealer knew it was "done" would be
virtually impossible .
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>Exactly what would you have a professional organization do? Should we suspend the membership of anyone that someone says doctors coins? This is quite serious. You are besmirching a man's career. We have to wait for some kind of a finding.
I have dipped lots of coins, have removed PVC from many, many coins, but I have never doctored a coin, nor have I ever seen it done. Yes, I know there are doctored coins. We have all seen them, but who did it? Who is responsible? Starting somewhere is a good first step. >>
As a general proposition any fool collector can define as well as discuss ad nauseum "doctored coins." General propositions do not decide concrete cases. That's, my friend, where the trouble starts.
If the PNG was serious (clearly they are not), they would hire a person who is not a dealer to police its members and would have authority to take action.
As a collector, I cannot find any value when a dealer displays the PNG logo. Should I?
That said, this is an important move from the PNG, because it sets a standard. Sure, it happened after the PCGS litigation, but the main thing is that the PNG got in line and hopefully there a few more organizations behind them. It focuses attention on the issue & delineates a line between the good guys and bad guys. I can understand that folks want to see more than just words, but this is a necessary part of the process.....
<< <i>
<< <i>That's a step in the right direction, I hope the ANA adopts it too. >>
It's purely lip service until they actually take action against any members who doctor coins.
The provision below was already in effect and I don't see where it made much, if any difference.
"7.To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers." >>
Right on, Mark.
<< <i>If any one on this forum noticed a light turning on in their neighbor's home while they are away, most likely, they would report it to the police. >>
I don't know if that is true. I feel like things in our culture have changed in the last 30 years. When I was a kid I think you're right. But when I was a kid we also knew all the neighbors. At least in my part of the world there's a "mind your own business" attitude in general.
Who wants to provoke a fight by pointing out that someone has doctored coins? If you're a well-known person in the hobby e.g. a big dealer or someone like that who has performed ethically in business in the past, and you have lots of other folks who will vouch for you and back you up, then maybe. But you may still take a reputation hit if you do it because you may be "the guy who likes to stir up trouble." If you're just a collector and aren't as well-known, then it will be easy for the dealer to make it look like you're the bad guy, and there goes your weekend. Plus next time you go to a show you may be recognized as the such-and-so who accused some dealer of having a doctored coin.
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
<< <i>I saw a big dealer at The Long Beach show that had an obviously tooled coin. I pointed it out to him and said that it should be submitted back to PCGS for review. After being shown the obvious tooling (I am sure he knew, of course), I felt it was up to him to do the right thing. Did he? No, but I couldn't do any more because I was just someone walking by. I wasn't the harmed party. But guess what - there will be a harmed party. And when they come back to the dealer, then there is a case.
The coin later showed up in an auction and I made a stink about it again. Nothing happened. >>
Rick, let me suggest to you, you're making a cardinal mistake, if you're thinking you can incorporate, by way of analogy, a tooling example into this "doctored" toning issue. Those two are fundamentally different. They're as different as night and day. Tooling, as well as counterfeiting, for that matter, stands apart from "doctored" toning, in this fundamental respect. Both tooling and counterfeiting, provided one has a requisite level of study and knowledge, can be objectively determined, right off the face of the coin. As such, when an expert, as yourself, informs a dealer he or she has a tooled coin in his or her inventory, there's an issue, there, that can be objectively determined, without the necessity of having to inquire beyond the face of the coin. Contrast that with a "doctored" toned coin. You see one of those in that dealer's inventory, and, unless it's nail polish or spray paint, for example, where's your objective standard? If the toning is oxidation, i.e., tarnish, it's natural as can be.
We make our mistakes when we seek to incorporate standards that require us to take our eyes off the coin. That's a cardinal mistake. Keep your eyes on the coin. Never let anybody, I don't care who they are, persuade you to inquire beyond it.
I think you'll do just fine...
<< <i> What is a "Cardinal" mistake? >>
That is when a Cardinal accidently lands in a Blue Jay's nest... this usually creates alot of trouble...
hope that helps...
edited to add... Rick... I think you should now sit quietly and think about what you have done...
<< <i>Adopting a definition for (and prohibiting) "doctoring" is meaningless, if they aren't going to take action against members who engage in such practices. And sadly, while I would love to be wrong, I don't expect anything to change in that regard. >>
Why?
<< <i>
<< <i>Adopting a definition for (and prohibiting) "doctoring" is meaningless, if they aren't going to take action against members who engage in such practices. And sadly, while I would love to be wrong, I don't expect anything to change in that regard. >>
Why? >>
Mike, because the following (including "altered") has already been in effect, and, to my knowledge, little, if anything has been done about it.
"“Section seven of the PNG Code of Ethics specifically states that PNG member-dealers must refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to their customers. Section four of the Code prohibits misrepresenting the quality of a coin,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman."
<< <i>What is a "Cardinal" mistake? >>
Are you serious?
Car-di-nal (kärdn-l, kärdnl) adj. 1. Of foremost importance; paramount: a cardinal rule; cardinal sins.