I am thinking that the words fraud or defraud covers the definition better than PNG's some what foggy definition. Now they have to define words like altered surface to support there definition of doctoring. I am in support of any efforts they make but I must admit this one is lacking in depth. After all it all "depends on what your definition of is is."
Give the laziest man the toughest job and he will find the easiest way to get it done.
Folks... I need to apologize in advance for the words I am about to enter onto this forum...
but here it goes...
I have a bad feeling about all of this...
You see... once it comes to light that there is a need for "regulation" of some sort in this hobby... and that the very notable (so-called) experts in the field will not or can not step up and define the real problems and offer the needed (self) regulation... AND it is realized how large the amounts of money that can and are involved are ... well... it will become a situation just ripe for "Government Intervention" ... I am not joking here... I really do believe this is a serious concern... especially in light of all the micro-managing our government seems to be involving itself in these days...
...and with the lawsuit... it may already be too late...
This flaccid and ineffectual "statement" by the PNG is of little help IMHO
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Folks... I need to apologize in advance for the words I am about to enter onto this forum...
but here it goes...
I have a bad feeling about all of this...
You see... once it comes to light that there is a need for "regulation" of some sort in this hobby... and that the very notable (so-called) experts in the field will not or can not step up and define the real problems and offer the needed (self) regulation... AND it is realized how large the amounts of money that can and are involved are ... well... it will become a situation just ripe for "Government Intervention" ... I am not joking here... I really do believe this is a serious concern... especially in light of all the micro-managing our government seems to be involving itself in these days...
...and with the lawsuit... it may already be too late...
This flaccid and ineffectual "statement" by the PNG is of little help IMHO >>
I think I agree with most of what you've said. And there is probably no turning back. But I also think that this is part of the inevitability of any multi-million dollar business. And this recognition makes an even more compelling argument for self - regulation or self - policing. I'm not a numismatic historian, but didn't the industry address the problem with counterfeits decades ago through third party grading services and dealers simply deciding not do deal in counterfeit coins? I've seen and heard of counterfeit gold being brought into a local show and the word spreads like wild fire. I know that this issue is a bit more complex, and I don't know what the government's level of involvement was back then, but an analogy seems appropriate. So, as I think about it, the industry needs to do more, much more, to ensure that doctored coins are not sold as non-doctored coins. And that includes PNG, the ANA, and others.
Be careful what you wish for. You can have this as a hobby, with self-regulation and civil lawsuits for people who feel they have been defrauded...
Or you can have it where coin dealers have to be registered brokers, with educational requirements, posting of bond, annual government tests and recertification, criminal penalties incuding prison for selling someone a coin that "you should have known" was an unsuitable investment for them, or selling a coin that the government decides was "doctored."
I think this thread has become incredibly enlightening - more level headed thinking and constructive input in this post then I have seen in many a day .
I pledge to do what ever I can , in my own small way ; to be a part of the movement within our hobby to take a stand in the battle that has only begun ......
Theoretical questions for those of you know know PNG, its officers, and how they operate when confronted with situations they'd perhaps rather not deal with:
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken?
<< <i>Theoretical questions for those of you know know PNG, its officers, and how they operate when confronted with situations they'd perhaps rather not deal with:
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken? >>
Dennis, in your hypothetical, are the coins uncertified? If not, whose holders are they in? Also, you didn't specify, but I presume that by"someone's case" you meant a a PNG dealer.
<< <i>Adopting a definition for (and prohibiting) "doctoring" is meaningless, if they aren't going to take action against members who engage in such practices. And sadly, while I would love to be wrong, I don't expect anything to change in that regard. >>
Why? >>
Mike, because the following (including "altered") has already been in effect, and, to my knowledge, little, if anything has been done about it.
"“Section seven of the PNG Code of Ethics specifically states that PNG member-dealers must refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to their customers. Section four of the Code prohibits misrepresenting the quality of a coin,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman." >>
PNG or the ANA could adopt an ethics rule placing an affirmative obligation on its members to report such conduct and, to take it one step further, to make it an ethics violation to fail to do so. The legal profession has had this type of rule for years in most jurisdictions. Before you start with the lawyer jokes, I will say that in my opinion most lawyers take it very seriously, and clients certainly do.
As a practical matter, the only action that an organization can take is expulsion from the organization. I don't have answers to the rest of the questions, but Laura Sperber has opined on these issues before quite effectively.
That is way too high. I did a quick check on their site and it looks as if fewer than 300 names are listed. That includes associate/affiliate members, and takes into consideration that some companies have more than one representative who is a PNG member.
The hardest definition in doctoring has got to be the one for dipping. How will it be worded to allow dipping for higher grade coins, while dipping lower grade coins will get them the bodybag for cleaning? What if an MS coin was dipped until lustre was impaired? Would that be doctoring? The definition of market acceptability is no longer set by the market (collectors), but by those who stand to profit the most from setting the definition in certain ways. The cart is driving the horse.
The problem with the hobby, IMHO, started when it went from a pastime that might have a financial payback to an investment option where anything other than a sure thing is a reason for litigation. It's a game with a moving goal post that is being milked for all it's worth by a few that have become so influential that they not only set the rules, but know the outcome before the contest starts.
Some expect to much, gone are the days when you bought coins in a small basement store with coins on the right and dirty magazines on the left. Store owners had a can of braso cleaner, steel wool and a jar of dip on the counter to shine the coin up for you. Now you got to make to stops. lol
The so call "coin tution" bothers me more than the doctoring. It is okay to rip the newbie and the widow. It takes years/decades to make changes.
You can not protect everyone from everything.
I have been on this coin site for a few years now, you read plenty of threads about doctored coins but no one ever named names. Laura has preached about doctors but never published a name in her articles. I get the impression that most dealers KNOW who doctors coins and say there are doctors out there but WILL NOT name them for collectors to avoid or pay more attention to when dealing with them.
Coinguy is all over these forums, goes to the big dance, has opinons on everything, appears very intelligent, has earned the respect of many on this site and others, is a pillar in the coin world, people listen when he speaks, is considered a rock star in the coin world, has threads written about him. He appears very concerned that doctors are bad for the hobby, yet i have never read a thread that says ""XXX is a coin doctor, buyer beware""
How about the 10 big dogs of the coin world band together and expose the coin doctors for all to see. There is safety in numbers. Any dealer willing to step up and name names that are not on the pcgs lawsuit. To me that would be a step in the right direction. Coin dealers IMO have covered for the doctors far to long by being silent to expose them.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I think too broad a definition is being used for some of the control methods suggested. I mean, if you are going to go after someone who is selling a doctored coin at a show, you should know your legal limits.
If it is a counterfeit, it is certainly within your expected action to do whatever it takes to get that coin off the market. Do you attack the dealer for selling it? What if he didn't know (or even if he did and said he didn't). If it is a pattern of selling counterfeits, then you might have a legal case.
But on a doctored coin, say a tooled coin that is raw, can you go to the same lengths? There are many dealers who have no problem selling whizzed, tooled or heavily cleaned coins. These should be taken off the market, but they are not counterfeit, so there is no legal remedy to stop their sale. You certainly cannot attack dealers at a show just because they have some problem coins. You can choose not do business with them, and let others know about what you've seen, but you can't do anything to restrict his right to do business.
Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far. Remember, I live in Arizona.
In the 1990's I started a group called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was formed to root out the dealers who sold whizzed and cleaned coins as BU in their big multi-page ads. We wanted to highlight the sellers who wouldn't do that. The interest waned though and it lasted only about five years. If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too.
I'm not saying not to do anything, what I am saying is you should think of the consequences of aggressive action. If you are the injured party (like PCGS is), then you have a case and can take legal action. If you are just a bystander and see a doctored coin, you can tell people, but you are not the injured party and cannot take legal action. You may even find yourself getting in trouble for bad-mouthing someone if you are wrong. Maybe that's why many here are saying that OTHERS should take action.
<< <i>If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too. >>
I think a lot of people overlook this point. Finding yourself named in a lawsuit due to your comments regarding another party's business practices is definitely not just a theoretical possibility. There seem to be a lot of people advocating for *somebody else* to step up and take one for the team.
<< <i>I think too broad a definition is being used for some of the control methods suggested. I mean, if you are going to go after someone who is selling a doctored coin at a show, you should know your legal limits.
If it is a counterfeit, it is certainly within your expected action to do whatever it takes to get that coin off the market. Do you attack the dealer for selling it? What if he didn't know (or even if he did and said he didn't). If it is a pattern of selling counterfeits, then you might have a legal case.
But on a doctored coin, say a tooled coin that is raw, can you go to the same lengths? There are many dealers who have no problem selling whizzed, tooled or heavily cleaned coins. These should be taken off the market, but they are not counterfeit, so there is no legal remedy to stop their sale. You certainly cannot attack dealers at a show just because they have some problem coins. You can choose not do business with them, and let others know about what you've seen, but you can't do anything to restrict his right to do business.
Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far. Remember, I live in Arizona.
In the 1990's I started a group called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was formed to root out the dealers who sold whizzed and cleaned coins as BU in their big multi-page ads. We wanted to highlight the sellers who wouldn't do that. The interest waned though and it lasted only about five years. If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too.
I'm not saying not to do anything, what I am saying is you should think of the consequences of aggressive action. If you are the injured party (like PCGS is), then you have a case and can take legal action. If you are just a bystander and see a doctored coin, you can tell people, but you are not the injured party and cannot take legal action. You may even find yourself getting in trouble for bad-mouthing someone if you are wrong. Maybe that's why many here are saying that OTHERS should take action. >>
Rick - thanks for the thoughtful reply. You raise many valid points. This highlights the issue that I am trying to raise. The PNG code states that no dealer should sell a whizzed coin without disclosing it. Howver, many PNG dealers do. And also sell overgraded coins, cleaned coins, rim damage etc without mentioning the issues. As far as I know, and it seems from this thread that no one else knows, what action may be taken to stop them from violating the PNGs code and diminishing the brand equity of the PNG. I am not proposing specific changes, just highlighting why I, and others, place no value on a dealer's PNG status. It seems to mean nothing.
<< <i>Theoretical questions for those of you know know PNG, its officers, and how they operate when confronted with situations they'd perhaps rather not deal with:
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken? >>
IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?
The TPG's offer an opinion. They are not always correct and they are professionals. If a collector, who may be right or wrong, points out a situation where he believes there is a doctored coin, who is to say that he is correct?
There are many subtleties.
The only absolute is authenticity.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
May I say first that of all the dealers , at all of the shows that I have attended over the past 20+ years -
you are the warmest , most friendly, most non-judgemental , most welcoming man I have ever had the pleasure to have met .
Your last post is heartbreaking ............you point out softly yet piercingly ......... "what can be done " ?
.........in a way that makes the problem seem almost hopeless .
But as I said , I will do my part : for example , I just returned a fantastically toned PCGS Franklin to a dealer because I felt it was not naturally toned .
If each of us , in are own way , refrain from buying slabbed coins that are gut's tell us are A.T , we will all be helping to do something
significant to right the so many wrongs that are out there .....each in our own small way .
You shouldn't just return it if you thought it was AT, but you should have returned it if you didn't like it.
There are obvious AT coins, but there are many others that there is an honest difference of opinion.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world.
Of course the coin doctors need to be stopped and yes, I do, sell lots of unencapsulated coins.
However, until there is strictly an objective, not subjective, way of evaluating coins, there will never be THE answer.
Evaluating coins continue to be opinions.
Is your opinion better than mine?
It is easy to undergrade coins, but it is a more difficult proposition to examine the coins and give an honest evaluation, based on years of examining coins, understanding what is normal for an issue, and knowing that there is no one, whatsoever, that really knows whether that 1795 dollar, 1893 cent, or whatever, was ever actually used as money.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
As a practical matter, the only action that an organization can take is expulsion from the organization. I don't have answers to the rest of the questions, but Laura Sperber has opined on these issues before quite effectively. >>
I am an outsider to the professional aspects of the numismatic industry and all that goes on behind the scenes, but I find it interesting that the most successful coin dealer out there today, Laura Sperber, as measured by the kind of coins and clients she deals with and who also have confidence in her integrity, ....has refused to become a PNG member.
If I were an officer or member of the board of PNG I would be all ears to what she has to say.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals. Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, an opposing lawyer in a court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question uncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But, don't go condemning a coin on that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals." Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, a opposing lawyer in court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question unncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But don't go condemning a coin with that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
I've got work to do...
Let me add, geeze, are you people [all] that sick? Or is it rather perhaps that you're just unfamiliar with the wisdom: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (Jiddu Krishnamurti; yeah, this dude wasn't a European...surprise, surprise!)? Be a man? Well, yeah, kinda. Articulate why you don't like the damn toning. Don't hide behind a term as arbitrary, spurious and capricious (that mean, "bullship(sp?)" folks) as "AT." That's a cop out if there ever was one. It's an excuse for your utter incompetence to articulate the reason(s) you don't happen to like the particular toning on the coin. "Oh, it's AT." Huh. IOW, WTF? We're inarticulate enough as a society, thesedays, most kids, these days, are half illiterate. >>
Hey Dawg --- Kurt... when you are done with your work... would you mind taking another moment to tell us how you REALLY feel?
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals. Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, a opposing lawyer in court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question unncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But don't go condemning a coin with that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
I've got work to do...
Let me add, geeze, are you people [all] that sick? Or is it rather perhaps that you're just unfamiliar with the wisdom: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (Jiddu Krishnamurti; yeah, this dude wasn't a European...surprise, surprise!)? Be a man? Well, yeah, kinda. Articulate why you don't like the damn toning. Don't hide behind a term as arbitrary, spurious and capricious (that mean, "bullship(sp?)" folks) as "AT." That's a cop out if there ever was one. It's an excuse for your utter incompetence to articulate the reason(s) you don't happen to like the particular toning on the coin. "Oh, it's AT." Huh. IOW, WTF? We're inarticulate enough as a society, thesedays, most kids, these days, are half illiterate. >>
Hey Dawg --- Kurt... when you are done with your work... would you mind taking another moment to tell us how you REALLY feel? >>
You replied too quickly. I guess I'm not as fast an editor as you are a replier. I was going to cut out that last part of my reply after "I've got work to do...." Oh well, that's how the cookie crumbles.
- apparently like the world some of you fellers live in >>
Some of us live in, or all of you live in? Really, I've got things to do on this computer, and I'm letting myself be distracted by this utter and foolish nonsense. And, in about an hour and a half from now (that'd be, 9 EST) we have to be out of here and on our way to dinner, and, appreciate this, THE W is breathing down my neck right now, letting me know that, as I type!
Look, why don't you just make this simple for all of us? Either define what you mean by "AT," or be man enough to concede it doesn't mean one damn thing outside of what Julian and many others way before him (yours truly, included) have related it means, namely, and, quite simply, that you don't happen to like the damn toning on the damn coin? For whatever damn reason! And, that's all, that's it, it's finished!
Think about it, that'd really help us out. All you have to do is lose that stupid-ass excuse of a catch-all term for the real reason(s) you don't happen to like the toning in a particular damned toned coin. Tell us why you don't like it, fer crissakes! And, quit hiding behind that arbitrary, capricious, specious, and, a.k.a., stupid-ass term, "AT."
after this thread i think I'm gonna go out and buy a bunch of dip and go find the Sonnier collection
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
definition better than PNG's some what foggy definition.
Now they have to define words like altered surface to
support there definition of doctoring.
I am in support of any efforts they make but I must admit
this one is lacking in depth. After all it all "depends on what your definition of is is."
but here it goes...
I have a bad feeling about all of this...
You see... once it comes to light that there is a need for "regulation" of some sort in this hobby... and that the very notable (so-called) experts in the field will not or can not step up and define the real problems and offer the needed (self) regulation... AND it is realized how large the amounts of money that can and are involved are ... well... it will become a situation just ripe for "Government Intervention" ... I am not joking here... I really do believe this is a serious concern... especially in light of all the micro-managing our government seems to be involving itself in these days...
...and with the lawsuit... it may already be too late...
This flaccid and ineffectual "statement" by the PNG is of little help IMHO
<< <i>Folks... I need to apologize in advance for the words I am about to enter onto this forum...
but here it goes...
I have a bad feeling about all of this...
You see... once it comes to light that there is a need for "regulation" of some sort in this hobby... and that the very notable (so-called) experts in the field will not or can not step up and define the real problems and offer the needed (self) regulation... AND it is realized how large the amounts of money that can and are involved are ... well... it will become a situation just ripe for "Government Intervention" ... I am not joking here... I really do believe this is a serious concern... especially in light of all the micro-managing our government seems to be involving itself in these days...
...and with the lawsuit... it may already be too late...
This flaccid and ineffectual "statement" by the PNG is of little help IMHO >>
I think I agree with most of what you've said. And there is probably no turning back. But I also think that this is part of the inevitability of any multi-million dollar business. And this recognition makes an even more compelling argument for self - regulation or self - policing. I'm not a numismatic historian, but didn't the industry address the problem with counterfeits decades ago through third party grading services and dealers simply deciding not do deal in counterfeit coins? I've seen and heard of counterfeit gold being brought into a local show and the word spreads like wild fire. I know that this issue is a bit more complex, and I don't know what the government's level of involvement was back then, but an analogy seems appropriate. So, as I think about it, the industry needs to do more, much more, to ensure that doctored coins are not sold as non-doctored coins. And that includes PNG, the ANA, and others.
Tom
Or you can have it where coin dealers have to be registered brokers, with educational requirements, posting of bond, annual government tests and
recertification, criminal penalties incuding prison for selling someone a coin that "you should have known" was an unsuitable investment for them, or
selling a coin that the government decides was "doctored."
Try These rules on for size....
Tom
I pledge to do what ever I can , in my own small way ; to be a part of the movement within our hobby to take a stand in the battle that has only begun ......
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken?
<< <i>Theoretical questions for those of you know know PNG, its officers, and how they operate when confronted with situations they'd perhaps rather not deal with:
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken? >>
Dennis, in your hypothetical, are the coins uncertified? If not, whose holders are they in? Also, you didn't specify, but I presume that by"someone's case" you meant a a PNG dealer.
Yes, in a PNG dealer's case.
For the sake of keeping the can of worms smaller, let's assume they're raw coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Adopting a definition for (and prohibiting) "doctoring" is meaningless, if they aren't going to take action against members who engage in such practices. And sadly, while I would love to be wrong, I don't expect anything to change in that regard. >>
Why? >>
Mike, because the following (including "altered") has already been in effect, and, to my knowledge, little, if anything has been done about it.
"“Section seven of the PNG Code of Ethics specifically states that PNG member-dealers must refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to their customers. Section four of the Code prohibits misrepresenting the quality of a coin,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman." >>
PNG or the ANA could adopt an ethics rule placing an affirmative obligation on its members to report such conduct and, to take it one step further, to make it an ethics violation to fail to do so. The legal profession has had this type of rule for years in most jurisdictions. Before you start with the lawyer jokes, I will say that in my opinion most lawyers take it very seriously, and clients certainly do.
Tom
As a practical matter, the only action that an organization can take is expulsion from the organization.
I don't have answers to the rest of the questions, but Laura Sperber has opined on these issues before quite effectively.
Tom
<< <i>I would throw out a guess of 10% >>
That is way too high. I did a quick check on their site and it looks as if fewer than 300 names are listed. That includes associate/affiliate members, and takes into consideration that some companies have more than one representative who is a PNG member.
<< <i>alrighty then ..........how many coin dealers are there in America ? >>
A rough count of those listed in the "2010 Numismatic Dealer Directory" (same people who put out the greysheet) comes to 8600.
that would put the 300 PNG dealers solidly at 10%
..........the definition of a coin dealer would need to be clearly understood so's I could argue more factually with Mark
<< <i>I went to "Coin Directory .Com" and found aprox. 3000 dealers in the 50 States ..........
that would put the 300 PNG dealers solidly at 10%
..........the definition of a coin dealer would need to be clearly understood so's I could argue more factually with Mark
Did you miss the "FEWER" than 300 names part?
<< <i>that would put the 300 PNG dealers solidly at 10% >>
I'd be surprised to find that 10% of all dealers belong to PNG. If I had to guess, I'd bet it would be less than 1%.
<< <i>
<< <i>that would put the 300 PNG dealers solidly at 10% >>
I'd be surprised to find that 10% of all dealers belong to PNG. If I had to guess, I'd bet it would be less than 1%. >>
then were talking about maybe 3000 dealers tops ,..........
<< <i>If we limit the dealer pool to.......... >>
whatever qualifications you decide to use, you can get whatever percent you're looking for.
edited to add... Just because you eliminate some dealers based on *whatever*, doesn't make them non-dealers.
<< <i>
<< <i>If we limit the dealer pool to.......... >>
whatever qualifications you decide to use, you can get whatever percent you're looking for.
edited to add... Just because you eliminate some dealers based on *whatever*, doesn't make them non-dealers. >>
Or Doctors?
The problem with the hobby, IMHO, started when it went from a pastime that might have a financial payback to an investment option where anything other than a sure thing is a reason for litigation. It's a game with a moving goal post that is being milked for all it's worth by a few that have become so influential that they not only set the rules, but know the outcome before the contest starts.
The so call "coin tution" bothers me more than the doctoring. It is okay to rip the newbie and the widow. It takes years/decades to make changes.
You can not protect everyone from everything.
I have been on this coin site for a few years now, you read plenty of threads about doctored coins but no one ever named names. Laura has preached about doctors but never published a name in her articles. I get the impression that most dealers KNOW who doctors coins and say there are doctors out there but WILL NOT name them for collectors to avoid or pay more attention to when dealing with them.
Coinguy is all over these forums, goes to the big dance, has opinons on everything, appears very intelligent, has earned the respect of many on this site and others, is a pillar in the coin world, people listen when he speaks, is considered a rock star in the coin world, has threads written about him. He appears very concerned that doctors are bad for the hobby, yet i have never read a thread that says ""XXX is a coin doctor, buyer beware""
How about the 10 big dogs of the coin world band together and expose the coin doctors for all to see. There is safety in numbers. Any dealer willing to step up and name names that are not on the pcgs lawsuit. To me that would be a step in the right direction. Coin dealers IMO have covered for the doctors far to long by being silent to expose them.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i> What is a "Cardinal" mistake? >>
That is when a Cardinal accidently lands in a Blue Jay's nest... this usually creates alot of trouble...
hope that helps...
edited to add... Rick... I think you should now sit quietly and think about what you have done...
I think most would be more happy with a Cardjay! But a Bluinal............????
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If it is a counterfeit, it is certainly within your expected action to do whatever it takes to get that coin off the market. Do you attack the dealer for selling it? What if he didn't know (or even if he did and said he didn't). If it is a pattern of selling counterfeits, then you might have a legal case.
But on a doctored coin, say a tooled coin that is raw, can you go to the same lengths? There are many dealers who have no problem selling whizzed, tooled or heavily cleaned coins. These should be taken off the market, but they are not counterfeit, so there is no legal remedy to stop their sale. You certainly cannot attack dealers at a show just because they have some problem coins. You can choose not do business with them, and let others know about what you've seen, but you can't do anything to restrict his right to do business.
Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far. Remember, I live in Arizona.
In the 1990's I started a group called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was formed to root out the dealers who sold whizzed and cleaned coins as BU in their big multi-page ads. We wanted to highlight the sellers who wouldn't do that. The interest waned though and it lasted only about five years. If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too.
I'm not saying not to do anything, what I am saying is you should think of the consequences of aggressive action. If you are the injured party (like PCGS is), then you have a case and can take legal action. If you are just a bystander and see a doctored coin, you can tell people, but you are not the injured party and cannot take legal action. You may even find yourself getting in trouble for bad-mouthing someone if you are wrong. Maybe that's why many here are saying that OTHERS should take action.
<< <i>If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too. >>
I think a lot of people overlook this point. Finding yourself named in a lawsuit due to your comments regarding another party's business practices is definitely not just a theoretical possibility. There seem to be a lot of people advocating for *somebody else* to step up and take one for the team.
<< <i>I think too broad a definition is being used for some of the control methods suggested. I mean, if you are going to go after someone who is selling a doctored coin at a show, you should know your legal limits.
If it is a counterfeit, it is certainly within your expected action to do whatever it takes to get that coin off the market. Do you attack the dealer for selling it? What if he didn't know (or even if he did and said he didn't). If it is a pattern of selling counterfeits, then you might have a legal case.
But on a doctored coin, say a tooled coin that is raw, can you go to the same lengths? There are many dealers who have no problem selling whizzed, tooled or heavily cleaned coins. These should be taken off the market, but they are not counterfeit, so there is no legal remedy to stop their sale. You certainly cannot attack dealers at a show just because they have some problem coins. You can choose not do business with them, and let others know about what you've seen, but you can't do anything to restrict his right to do business.
Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far. Remember, I live in Arizona.
In the 1990's I started a group called NANA, which was the National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. It was formed to root out the dealers who sold whizzed and cleaned coins as BU in their big multi-page ads. We wanted to highlight the sellers who wouldn't do that. The interest waned though and it lasted only about five years. If we had taken the opinion of many here and went on the attack, labeling the dealers who we knew were selling whizzed and cleaned coins as BU, then we would have needed a very large legal team too.
I'm not saying not to do anything, what I am saying is you should think of the consequences of aggressive action. If you are the injured party (like PCGS is), then you have a case and can take legal action. If you are just a bystander and see a doctored coin, you can tell people, but you are not the injured party and cannot take legal action. You may even find yourself getting in trouble for bad-mouthing someone if you are wrong. Maybe that's why many here are saying that OTHERS should take action. >>
Rick - thanks for the thoughtful reply. You raise many valid points. This highlights the issue that I am trying to raise. The PNG code states that no dealer should sell a whizzed coin without disclosing it. Howver, many PNG dealers do. And also sell overgraded coins, cleaned coins, rim damage etc without mentioning the issues. As far as I know, and it seems from this thread that no one else knows, what action may be taken to stop them from violating the PNGs code and diminishing the brand equity of the PNG. I am not proposing specific changes, just highlighting why I, and others, place no value on a dealer's PNG status. It seems to mean nothing.
merse
<< <i>Theoretical questions for those of you know know PNG, its officers, and how they operate when confronted with situations they'd perhaps rather not deal with:
A highly knowledgeable and experienced dealer or collector attending the ANA in Boston sees doctored coins (plural) in someone's case. They advise the dealer of such. They then locate a PNG officer and report it to them. What would that official do? Who from PNG would follow up on the report? How quickly? What action would be taken? >>
IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?
The TPG's offer an opinion. They are not always correct and they are professionals. If a collector, who may be right or wrong, points out a situation where he believes there is a doctored coin, who is to say that he is correct?
There are many subtleties.
The only absolute is authenticity.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
May I say first that of all the dealers , at all of the shows that I have attended over the past 20+ years -
you are the warmest , most friendly, most non-judgemental , most welcoming man I have ever had the pleasure to have met .
Your last post is heartbreaking ............you point out softly yet piercingly ......... "what can be done " ?
.........in a way that makes the problem seem almost hopeless .
But as I said , I will do my part : for example , I just returned a fantastically toned PCGS Franklin to a dealer because I felt it was not naturally toned .
If each of us , in are own way , refrain from buying slabbed coins that are gut's tell us are A.T , we will all be helping to do something
significant to right the so many wrongs that are out there .....each in our own small way .
There are obvious AT coins, but there are many others that there is an honest difference of opinion.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world.
However, until there is strictly an objective, not subjective, way of evaluating coins, there will never be THE answer.
Evaluating coins continue to be opinions.
Is your opinion better than mine?
It is easy to undergrade coins, but it is a more difficult proposition to examine the coins and give an honest evaluation, based on years of examining coins, understanding what is normal for an issue, and knowing that there is no one, whatsoever, that really knows whether that 1795 dollar, 1893 cent, or whatever, was ever actually used as money.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>You shouldn't just return it if you thought it was AT, but you should have returned it if you didn't like it.
There are obvious AT coins, but there are many others that there is an honest difference of opinion. >>
well, I loved the coin , it was on the verge of the next grade up and had exotic color !
But I am a very advanced serious collector of Franklins and consider myself an expert on their Mint Set toning .
and I have seen every other kind of album tone, roll tone , and envelope tone imaginable as well .........
and I have seen a pretty fair number of fake toned one's in slabs also ;
it just would not fit into my master slabbed set at all , and although blessed with the PCGS holder -
I have come to trust my gut feeling : when in doubt ~ I ship it out
yes , absolutely positively without the shadow of any doubt they do ;
but if you study this thread carefully - you will realize they is very little any individual can do .........
You tell me how to catch and punish one and I will be like stink on a pig getting it done -
you tell me how keeping the coin and knowing what to then do with it will accomplish -
you tell me how submitting it for review at my cost and having it returned in the same holder will help -
you tell me what you yourself are actively doing to thwart the doctors and I will support you 100% and do the same -
you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect
my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -
Not accepting doctored coins into my collection or holdings is the most powerful tool that I have to wield
<< <i>What action would be taken?
As a practical matter, the only action that an organization can take is expulsion from the organization.
I don't have answers to the rest of the questions, but Laura Sperber has opined on these issues before quite effectively. >>
I am an outsider to the professional aspects of the numismatic industry and all that goes on behind the scenes, but I find it interesting that the most successful coin dealer out there today, Laura Sperber, as measured by the kind of coins and clients she deals with and who also have confidence in her integrity, ....has refused to become a PNG member.
If I were an officer or member of the board of PNG I would be all ears to what she has to say.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals. Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, an opposing lawyer in a court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question uncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But, don't go condemning a coin on that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
I've got work to do...
<< <i>
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals." Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, a opposing lawyer in court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question unncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But don't go condemning a coin with that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
I've got work to do...
Let me add, geeze, are you people [all] that sick? Or is it rather perhaps that you're just unfamiliar with the wisdom: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (Jiddu Krishnamurti; yeah, this dude wasn't a European...surprise, surprise!)? Be a man? Well, yeah, kinda. Articulate why you don't like the damn toning. Don't hide behind a term as arbitrary, spurious and capricious (that mean, "bullship(sp?)" folks) as "AT." That's a cop out if there ever was one. It's an excuse for your utter incompetence to articulate the reason(s) you don't happen to like the particular toning on the coin. "Oh, it's AT." Huh. IOW, WTF? We're inarticulate enough as a society, thesedays, most kids, these days, are half illiterate. >>
Hey Dawg --- Kurt... when you are done with your work... would you mind taking another moment to tell us how you REALLY feel?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"IF the dealer was a PNG member, something may be able to be done, but it has to ascertained that it is a correct diagnosis of the situation. I have had coins returned to me by the TPG's as cleaned, AT'd, etc. I disagree with many of their opinions. What then?"
So just return it? Thats a cop out answer if there ever was one. You do not think the coin docs need to be caught and punished?
These comments sound like they are from someone who still sells raw coins in a slab world. >>
OK, what the hell, I got a minute...
Listen, if you want to see a "cop out," define "AT." Julian had at least a piece of this puzzle right in his reply just prior to yours, in which he stated, and I quote, "[...] you should have returned it if you didn't like it." The term "AT" equals, "I don't like it." That's all it equals. Calling a coin "AT" when nobody can define that term in any half-way rational or for that matter literate way, shape or form that would hold up to the even the cross-examination skills of so much as of a grammar school child (and, many "big brains" in this hobby, I'm sure, have so tried), let alone, a opposing lawyer in court of law, is the real and let-the chips-fall-where-they-may "cop out," here. Get used to it. By maintaining that stupid-ass term in our coin-collecting vocabulary we're at one in the same time excusing ourselves from the intellectual-responsibility of articulating those reason(s) we happen to believe make the particular toning on the particular coin in question unncollectable, or, dare I say it, "unmarketable," in our most honest and humble and utterly idiotic to anybody who has half-a-brain of opinions. If you don't like the damn toning, tell us why. Maybe, who knows, we'll agree with you? Then, again, maybe not. But don't go condemning a coin with that stupid-ass term when the fact of the matter is, you, yourself, don't know the first thing about W in the F you're talking about. If you did, you could define it, and you can't, so you don't. Period.
I've got work to do...
Let me add, geeze, are you people [all] that sick? Or is it rather perhaps that you're just unfamiliar with the wisdom: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (Jiddu Krishnamurti; yeah, this dude wasn't a European...surprise, surprise!)? Be a man? Well, yeah, kinda. Articulate why you don't like the damn toning. Don't hide behind a term as arbitrary, spurious and capricious (that mean, "bullship(sp?)" folks) as "AT." That's a cop out if there ever was one. It's an excuse for your utter incompetence to articulate the reason(s) you don't happen to like the particular toning on the coin. "Oh, it's AT." Huh. IOW, WTF? We're inarticulate enough as a society, thesedays, most kids, these days, are half illiterate. >>
Hey Dawg --- Kurt... when you are done with your work... would you mind taking another moment to tell us how you REALLY feel?
You replied too quickly. I guess I'm not as fast an editor as you are a replier. I was going to cut out that last part of my reply after "I've got work to do...." Oh well, that's how the cookie crumbles.
thats why I returned the coin .
There is a very real and very accepted definition of A.T. ; and as long as I see them coming my way , I'm not going to buy them ..........
and in doing so , will do my small part in not supporting the demand for such coins .
<< <i>...........the coin I returned was in all probability toned by means other then natural -
thats why I returned the coin .
There is a very real and very accepted definition of A.T. ; and as long as I see them coming my way , I'm not going to buy them ..........
and in doing so , will do my small part in not supporting the demand for such coins . >>
Let me guess that definition: "I know it when I see it."
Really, I do have to go...
- apparently like the world some of you fellers live in
<< <i>artificial toning is tone that is not real >>
And real toning is tone that is not artificial.
Now that we've got that sorted out...
<< <i>artificial toning is tone that is not real
- apparently like the world some of you fellers live in >>
Some of us live in, or all of you live in? Really, I've got things to do on this computer, and I'm letting myself be distracted by this utter and foolish nonsense. And, in about an hour and a half from now (that'd be, 9 EST) we have to be out of here and on our way to dinner, and, appreciate this, THE W is breathing down my neck right now, letting me know that, as I type!
Look, why don't you just make this simple for all of us? Either define what you mean by "AT," or be man enough to concede it doesn't mean one damn thing outside of what Julian and many others way before him (yours truly, included) have related it means, namely, and, quite simply, that you don't happen to like the damn toning on the damn coin? For whatever damn reason! And, that's all, that's it, it's finished!
Think about it, that'd really help us out. All you have to do is lose that stupid-ass excuse of a catch-all term for the real reason(s) you don't happen to like the toning in a particular damned toned coin. Tell us why you don't like it, fer crissakes! And, quit hiding behind that arbitrary, capricious, specious, and, a.k.a., stupid-ass term, "AT."
<< <i>
<< <i>artificial toning is tone that is not real >>
And real toning is tone that is not artificial.
Now that we've got that sorted out...
REALLY! And no winky-face about it!
Oh, what the hell? ...
after this thread i think I'm gonna go out and buy a bunch of dip and go find the Sonnier collection
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire