<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>
Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint. >>
A PM would have been responded to immediately Bill! Make note of the forum handle............19LYDS >>
Hey, Lee- I called it first!!!!!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
It's a shabby way to treat the rest of us, if ya ask me. Now I know why some of the stuff I got from the Mint wasn't even in capsules and why some of the capsules were loose inside the boxes when I got them.
I wonder what the OP would do if a customer kept returning over 50% of the stuff that they ordered from him, hoping to cherrypick his stock? Or what he would do if someone ordered a batch of BU rolls and returned the bulk of the coins in partial rolls after looking them over real good?
This is a great example of abusing the system and letting everyone else take it in the neck.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Did the OP really expect any sympathy from this forum? >>
Did I ask for sympathy? I simply told a story. To address another posters concerns, I argued with the mint woman only BEFORE she mentioned the 50% return rate. Prior to that she was accusing us of damaging coins and that was the reason she said we could not return coins. It took quite a while to convince her that you have to look at the coins before you know if they are poor quality (damaged in my eyes). At that point, she changed her tune to "we have the right to refuse...." (which I totally agree with. As a business, I sure would reserve the right to limit my business to only those that I wanted to do business with.
If you recall, I later stated in a postI have NO sympathy for me either. I understand why the US Mint did this. My only argument is their rational for doing so.
As a flipper myself, this is VERY good news. Why should the mint continue to accept your business? If you bought $1000 worth of lottery tickets, do you think you should be able to get a refund for the losers after you scratche them? I have returned a good deal of items but even I have a limit on what I return and take a loss when I think I am taking advantage of the system.
Good luck to you, hope you can find another business model.
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
<< <i>It's a shabby way to treat the rest of us, if ya ask me. Now I know why some of the stuff I got from the Mint wasn't even in capsules and why some of the capsules were loose inside the boxes when I got them.
I wonder what the OP would do if a customer kept returning over 50% of the stuff that they ordered from him, hoping to cherrypick his stock? Or what he would do if someone ordered a batch of BU rolls and returned the bulk of the coins in partial rolls after looking them over real good?
This is a great example of abusing the system and letting everyone else take it in the neck. >>
Just to clarify, the only coins I buy from the mint in bulk are the proof presidential series. A lot go back, coins that are graded PF69 are either sold at a loss or are donated to schools, given as freebies in other orders and a bunch are even sent over sees. As an answer o this post, what would I do if my customers sent 50% back? Since I only sell PF70s I would take them all back and resell them. The Mint statement to me was that it cost more to restock than they were making. I keep about 50% of my purchases so every 1500.00 I spend at the mint I send exactly 1 box back to the mint.
Interesting that the women at the mint mentioned damaging coins. I remember a few on here who were advocating just that. So that they had to be taken off the supply. I'm sure the OP wasn't alone in jamming the Mint for a way to boost return on investment, but I think it great that the mint will now quit accepting returns from those who have severely abused the priviledge in the past.
<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>
Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint. >>
A PM would have been responded to immediately Bill! Make note of the forum handle............19LYDS >>
Hey, Lee- I called it first!!!!! >>
GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pay no Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain Bill!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? Jeff >>
Your admission will bring out all the negativity toward the US Mint and you are being blamed for every piece of junk coin ever received or that came out of its mint capsule in transit even though, as has been stated, these are repackaged prior to distribution.
It's the way it works around here.
As for the reason behind your admission, thanks for bringing it up since I'm sure more calls will be made as you are, more than likely, not the only fella that returns stuff to the US Mint.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Hmmmm..... wonder if they are going to stop me, too. All those Commem's I've sent back. For at least the Commem's I've a lot higher than 50% return rate, and mostly for "damaged" coins. Recently, I've returned a number of the spouses, too. worry worry.
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
Jeff >>
I am sorry some are hitting you as hard as they are. It was good to point that information out but you have to understand that the concept of flipping and gaming the system is not well received here by many-kind of like salsa made in New York City. So a slap on the wrist might be expected but there is always some in a crowd who want to get a rope which is really not called for. I think praise is a little much though.
p.s. There are too many 70's out there anyway for moderns.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I think you got all you could get out of that deal, time to find a new angle. I do not really have an issue with it but i can see how some would.
I was on the suspend list at Home Depot for a while. I never had my reciepts when i took some stuff back. Every time i did a return i would get hassled by the cashier, who then had to call a manager. Then a 20 year old would arrive and okay it. I could see my return histroy on the screen. I am talking about 12 to 15 return a year amounting from 150 to 1000 dollars. One little manager was snotty and i decided not to use Home depot for a while. Within 30 days i was being called from Home Depot about why i was not buying anything. I let them call a few times before i told them i did not like the way i was being treated on returns. ( i never returned anything that could not be resold as is, right now)
I no longer get hassled as they decided they like the fact i spend around 200k a year. I no longer even have to stand in line to do my returns. I just dump at the pro desk and they recredit my account. I even get some decent perks out of them from time to time now.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>op- do you have enough sense to pour p out of a boot? >>
Is this kind of statement necessary? or is it senseless? Does it actually add to the debate concerning the US Mint policy. I have already agreed that the correct decision was done by the US Mint, asked for no sympathy, and therefore, at least in terms of a debate, have significantly more sense than you - check your own boots.
After reading all the posts, I have to comment that it is about time the Mint dumped the OP as a customer.
The OP's business model was to buy in bulk, cherry pick the "possible" 70s and return a substantial portion to the mint. This is a business model that takes advantage of the buyer/seller relationship and the Mint finally figured that out. Kudos to the Mint.
As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Would it be too much trouble for the Mint to deliberately produce MS/PR70 coins in conjunction with onsite graders? It seems to me that between a good technical staff and immediate grading feedback that they could figure out how to process the dies & configure the presses in short order. Surely creating a 70-graded coin can't be a matter of chance?? The resulting product could be marketed as an "ultra-proof" or some other name (at extra cost of course), and, while not guaranteed to grade MS70 would have a much higher chance to doing so.
Well, I've just thought of a way to get the Mint to improve their product quality. Everybody return everything that isn't 100% PERFECT. Let's see what happens to their cost structure, and to their prices.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Hum... I wonder if it is practices such as this that are keeping the BSA proof commem lingering on?
I have only ever returned one item back to the Mint in 20 years, for obvious damage (of course I don't buy on the scale as some here). I have also kept damaged products from the mint, the 2005 American Legacy collection comes to mind (one of the cents was scratched), because I would never have gotten a replacement due to sellout.
I would like the Mint to better QA their products, but it is unrealistic to expect PR/MS 70's every time. I do believe everyone should get an equal chance to get one though, throughout the sales life of the product.
<< <i>Well, I've just thought of a way to get the Mint to improve their product quality. Everybody return everything that isn't 100% PERFECT. Let's see what happens to their cost structure, and to their prices. >>
<< <i>Last Friday, a US Mint employee (from their accounting department) called our business and notified us that we can no longer return ANY coins to the mint. A colleague of mine talked to her about their return policy and she said they reserve the right to refuse business from anyone they choose. We asked what rules we were breaking in order to receive this treatment and she stated that our return rate was too high. Now I will admit that we deal exclusively in modern issue coins in only PF/MS70 so our order rate is high and our return rate is also very high, but to ban any further returns seems a bit harsh - it isnt like they are not making $1000s on my orders.
In any case, what are the ramifications for bigger businesses that may do this flipping strategy. The way I see it, is that the supply of PF70/MS70s may go way down thus increasing the price that dealers willing to take the chance on not being able to return lousy condition proofs will be able to charge. I would be curios to know if any other companies that deal in large quantities of coins and have large return rates have heard anything from the mint concerning this issue. My colleague and I argued the return policy with this woman and she even threatened legal action if we return any further orders and dispute the lack of credit to that card threatened by the US Mint. Since the credit card only requires proof of return and adherence to the posted return policy (which by the way is returns for any reason... within 7 days) I think it would be hard for the Mint to enforce this "return for any reason policy except if you return too many" policy.
I know the anti flippers will be happy about this and the flippers will have to potentially find a way around it...
Jeff >>
The US Mint under the current Administration, is NOT interested in making a profit anymore. Fact.
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
Jeff >>
Having read up to this point and beyond before posting, if everyone who does this gets banned, I couldn't help think what it would do to the prices on PR70 material. Few would be made and there would be less to go around. Criticizing the practice that feeds the demand and subsequently keeps prices down doesn't make any sense. Does anyone here has an idea on what the profits are above costs in dealing this way? if the profits were high enough perhaps the high returns wouldn't be neccesary. What a headache repackaging and returning to keep costs down to see a profit. I wouldn't want to do it. And what about those who collect PR70 stuff, maybe some of it came from this gal. And I can side with those who don't want second handed material but there's usually millions of sets made.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
A return rate over a few percent doesn't sound fair to the seller. It's not the cost of reshelving it's the business lost when these cherry picked sets go out to people who swear they'll never buy from the mint again. If you don't like the product don't buy it.
Yes, if they've been having such high return rates there will be ramifications for the hobby and the slabbers. Costs will increase since they'll have no choice but to wholesale much more product of slightly lower quality. This will lower re- tail prioces markedly if returning has been widespread.
I guess I'm not one to talk since I once went through hundreds of souvenir sets looking for choice coins. Most of the ones I bought were just so I could keep looking. There weren't very many gems.
As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you. >>
There are much worse abuses of tax payer money than this. lol
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Like someone said earlier in this thread, "No wonder I always get junk from the Mint." A business is no better than I am. You spends your dime and you takes your chances. The lower quality ones become your problem not the rest of the Mint customers. I don't want your rejects and as far as I know neither does anyone else.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
The Mint should have all of the special coinage, graded as the coins come out of the presses. The 70s will be offered at lets say 10 times the price of the 69s which will be twice the price of the 68s.
<< <i>The Mint should have all of the special coinage, graded as the coins come out of the presses. The 70s will be offered at lets say 10 times the price of the 69s which will be twice the price of the 68s. >>
By golly Mr. Bear Sir you might be on to something there, Cut Out The Middle Man.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
<< <i>As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you. >>
There are much worse abuses of tax payer money than this. lol >>
Does that mean that something should only be done about the very worst abuse of taxpayer money, and all others get a pass? Just because there are worse cases than this, doesn't mean this isn't an issue.
Just as an earlier poster said "you spends your dimes, you takes your chances". That's how I was taught to live. I have never returned a coin I purchased, whether it was from a large company or an individual selling on ebay. I know there is always a risk buying that way and I am willing to accept the wins as well as the losses.
The OP says he can't sell the 69's and below. Not even at a break-even price? I really find that hard to believe.
Actions like this discredit the entire "hobby" - I'll use that term loosely here, because it's obviously not a hobby to the OP.
<< <i>Well, I've just thought of a way to get the Mint to improve their product quality. Everybody return everything that isn't 100% PERFECT. Let's see what happens to their cost structure, and to their prices >>
The Mint would just institute a no return policy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree with the mint. Their return policy has been abused for years. I have returned only one coin (a Silver Eagle with a scratch) in all the years I have been buying coins. The mint produces proof coins, it is the market that assigns grades - NOT THE MINT. Having been in business for many years, I can assure you, a customer that sent back 50% of a product that met manufacturing standards, would not have been a customer for long. Cheers, RickO
Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff.
I myself would not like to see the Mint sell pre-graded 70's etc. To me that would be like a kid who orders items for Christmas and gets everything on the list. No mystery-no dreaming-no fun. The 70's would outnumber all the others 10 to 1.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>What is your plan now that you are potentially cut-off from returns? >>
I have no plans going forward. The picking out of quality presidential proofs is not very lucrative as I DO NOT cherrypick entire sets - I am just looking for quality coins and I have no idea if they will grade PF70 or not. I guess a person could easily do a work around and just use a different credit card, pay by check, change address to a PO, etc. Since I only dealt in the presidential proof sets and the mint decided that I was NOT playing by the rules, I will stop the practice completely. In the past I followed each and every rule posted by the mint - if the mint states that I can no longer return coins, then I will live by that rule also.
I've noticed in some past threads (Gold spouse, Reverse Platinum proofs, 25th Anniversary eagles, the pending giant silver parks coin) people create multiple accounts to circumvent the mint's household limits. This in my opinion is far worse than a high return rate. If I kept a decent coin in the past (say, the Washington proof dollar) I also kept the other 3 in the set regardless of condition. So even with my high return rate, 75% of my coins were not cherrypicked and the one that I liked would grade less than PF70 50% of the time. That translates into 7 out of 8 coins would grade PF69 or lower (>84%) hardly a successful cherrypicking. Conversely, creating multiple accounts is a direct ripoff on those who want to collect modern issues. I even think that multiple accounts is expressly forbidden by the mint.
Many people on the forum have admitted doing similar things in the past, some have been roasted, some not. I agree with the Mint policy and would support them limiting returns to anyone buying more than 10 of anything...Flame on!!!
I also think it would be fine for the Mint to cut a deal with PCGS to have onsite graders pre-screening 70's. I won't buy them, but I don't care if they do it.
Bill, I don't want to be on the list for the Spouse Abuse Awareness Commemorative Sac...tacky...really tacky.
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
Jeff >>
Digging deeper, deeper.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>
Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint. >>
A PM would have been responded to immediately Bill! Make note of the forum handle............19LYDS >>
Hey, Lee- I called it first!!!!!
I wonder what the OP would do if a customer kept returning over 50% of the stuff that they ordered from him, hoping to cherrypick his stock? Or what he would do if someone ordered a batch of BU rolls and returned the bulk of the coins in partial rolls after looking them over real good?
This is a great example of abusing the system and letting everyone else take it in the neck.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Did the OP really expect any sympathy from this forum?
Did I ask for sympathy? I simply told a story. To address another posters concerns, I argued with the mint woman only BEFORE she mentioned the 50% return rate. Prior to that she was accusing us of damaging coins and that was the reason she said we could not return coins. It took quite a while to convince her that you have to look at the coins before you know if they are poor quality (damaged in my eyes). At that point, she changed her tune to "we have the right to refuse...." (which I totally agree with. As a business, I sure would reserve the right to limit my business to only those that I wanted to do business with.
If you recall, I later stated in a postI have NO sympathy for me either. I understand why the US Mint did this. My only argument is their rational for doing so.
Jeff
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Good luck to you, hope you can find another business model.
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
Jeff
<< <i>It's a shabby way to treat the rest of us, if ya ask me. Now I know why some of the stuff I got from the Mint wasn't even in capsules and why some of the capsules were loose inside the boxes when I got them.
I wonder what the OP would do if a customer kept returning over 50% of the stuff that they ordered from him, hoping to cherrypick his stock? Or what he would do if someone ordered a batch of BU rolls and returned the bulk of the coins in partial rolls after looking them over real good?
This is a great example of abusing the system and letting everyone else take it in the neck. >>
Just to clarify, the only coins I buy from the mint in bulk are the proof presidential series. A lot go back, coins that are graded PF69 are either sold at a loss or are donated to schools, given as freebies in other orders and a bunch are even sent over sees. As an answer o this post, what would I do if my customers sent 50% back? Since I only sell PF70s I would take them all back and resell them. The Mint statement to me was that it cost more to restock than they were making. I keep about 50% of my purchases so every 1500.00 I spend at the mint I send exactly 1 box back to the mint.
Jeff
I'm sure the OP wasn't alone in jamming the Mint for a way to boost return on investment, but I think it great that the mint will now quit accepting returns from those who have severely abused the priviledge in the past.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>
Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint. >>
A PM would have been responded to immediately Bill! Make note of the forum handle............19LYDS >>
Hey, Lee- I called it first!!!!!
GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pay no Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain Bill!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked?
Jeff >>
Your admission will bring out all the negativity toward the US Mint and you are being blamed for every piece of junk coin ever received or that came out of its mint capsule in transit even though, as has been stated, these are repackaged prior to distribution.
It's the way it works around here.
As for the reason behind your admission, thanks for bringing it up since I'm sure more calls will be made as you are, more than likely, not the only fella that returns stuff to the US Mint.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'm not feeling any sympathy. >>
Me either, sends the dreck for us smucks to buy. Hope they block more like you.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
I'd also be interested, even if I'm third in line!
<< <i>
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
Jeff >>
I am sorry some are hitting you as hard as they are. It was good to point that information out but you have to understand that the concept of flipping and gaming the system is not well received here by many-kind of like salsa made in New York City. So a slap on the wrist might be expected but there is always some in a crowd who want to get a rope which is really not called for. I think praise is a little much though.
p.s. There are too many 70's out there anyway for moderns.
I was on the suspend list at Home Depot for a while. I never had my reciepts when i took some stuff back. Every time i did a return i would get hassled by the cashier, who then had to call a manager. Then a 20 year old would arrive and okay it. I could see my return histroy on the screen. I am talking about 12 to 15 return a year amounting from 150 to 1000 dollars. One little manager was snotty and i decided not to use Home depot for a while. Within 30 days i was being called from Home Depot about why i was not buying anything. I let them call a few times before i told them i did not like the way i was being treated on returns. ( i never returned anything that could not be resold as is, right now)
I no longer get hassled as they decided they like the fact i spend around 200k a year. I no longer even have to stand in line to do my returns. I just dump at the pro desk and they recredit my account. I even get some decent perks out of them from time to time now.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>op- do you have enough sense to pour p out of a boot? >>
Is this kind of statement necessary? or is it senseless? Does it actually add to the debate concerning the US Mint policy. I have already agreed that the correct decision was done by the US Mint, asked for no sympathy, and therefore, at least in terms of a debate, have significantly more sense than you - check your own boots.
Jeff
After reading all the posts, I have to comment that it is about time the Mint dumped the OP as a customer.
The OP's business model was to buy in bulk, cherry pick the "possible" 70s and return a substantial portion to the mint. This is a business model that takes advantage of the buyer/seller relationship and the Mint finally figured that out. Kudos to the Mint.
As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Would it be too much trouble for the Mint to deliberately produce MS/PR70 coins in conjunction with onsite graders? It seems to me that between a good technical staff and immediate grading feedback that they could figure out how to process the dies & configure the presses in short order. Surely creating a 70-graded coin can't be a matter of chance?? The resulting product could be marketed as an "ultra-proof" or some other name (at extra cost of course), and, while not guaranteed to grade MS70 would have a much higher chance to doing so.
I knew it would happen.
I have only ever returned one item back to the Mint in 20 years, for obvious damage (of course I don't buy on the scale as some here). I have also kept damaged products from the mint, the 2005 American Legacy collection comes to mind (one of the cents was scratched), because I would never have gotten a replacement due to sellout.
I would like the Mint to better QA their products, but it is unrealistic to expect PR/MS 70's every time. I do believe everyone should get an equal chance to get one though, throughout the sales life of the product.
<< <i>Hum... I wonder if it is practices such as this that are keeping the BSA proof commem lingering on?
to some extent I'd say so.
There's also the: these won't flip returns...
but there's a ton of reasons keeping them lingering. The main one is probably popularity...
has continued to put up with the practice. No dealer in the world would
put up with your practice for more then a few orders. You are fortunate to have
gotten away with this practice ,for as long as you have.
Camelot
<< <i>Well, I've just thought of a way to get the Mint to improve their product quality. Everybody return everything that isn't 100% PERFECT. Let's see what happens to their cost structure, and to their prices.
true true.
they'll never be 100%.... ever... anyway.
<< <i>Last Friday, a US Mint employee (from their accounting department) called our business and notified us that we can no longer return ANY coins to the mint. A colleague of mine talked to her about their return policy and she said they reserve the right to refuse business from anyone they choose. We asked what rules we were breaking in order to receive this treatment and she stated that our return rate was too high. Now I will admit that we deal exclusively in modern issue coins in only PF/MS70 so our order rate is high and our return rate is also very high, but to ban any further returns seems a bit harsh - it isnt like they are not making $1000s on my orders.
In any case, what are the ramifications for bigger businesses that may do this flipping strategy. The way I see it, is that the supply of PF70/MS70s may go way down thus increasing the price that dealers willing to take the chance on not being able to return lousy condition proofs will be able to charge. I would be curios to know if any other companies that deal in large quantities of coins and have large return rates have heard anything from the mint concerning this issue. My colleague and I argued the return policy with this woman and she even threatened legal action if we return any further orders and dispute the lack of credit to that card threatened by the US Mint. Since the credit card only requires proof of return and adherence to the posted return policy (which by the way is returns for any reason... within 7 days) I think it would be hard for the Mint to enforce this "return for any reason policy except if you return too many" policy.
I know the anti flippers will be happy about this and the flippers will have to potentially find a way around it...
Jeff >>
The US Mint under the current Administration, is NOT interested in making a profit anymore. Fact.
They consistently make a profit.
I don't see how you can say they are not interested in a profit.
What is your plan now that you are potentially cut-off from returns?
collectors at below market buy prices.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand
POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!
so that we can use it for OP's like this.
TD >>
Just out of curiosity, why am I being attacked? I am in agreement with the board on this. I returned a lot of coins and now I cant - my interest in this was for the other 99.99% of the people who do this and what effect it will have on modern issues in high grades! I am not looking for and never expected sympathy and stated such in follow up posts. Treat this as a topic and not an attack on me. I thought it was interesting and of note to the community. At the very least, you should be praising me for forcing the US Mint to do this
Jeff >>
Having read up to this point and beyond before posting, if everyone who does this gets banned, I couldn't help think what it would do to the prices on PR70 material.
Few would be made and there would be less to go around. Criticizing the practice that feeds the demand and subsequently keeps prices down doesn't make any sense.
Does anyone here has an idea on what the profits are above costs in dealing this way? if the profits were high enough perhaps the high returns wouldn't be neccesary. What a headache repackaging and returning to keep costs down to see a profit. I wouldn't want to do it.
And what about those who collect PR70 stuff, maybe some of it came from this gal.
And I can side with those who don't want second handed material but there's usually millions of sets made.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I'd love to return my spouse...postage paid (but not insured). >>
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
cost of reshelving it's the business lost when these cherry picked sets go out
to people who swear they'll never buy from the mint again. If you don't like
the product don't buy it.
Yes, if they've been having such high return rates there will be ramifications
for the hobby and the slabbers. Costs will increase since they'll have no choice
but to wholesale much more product of slightly lower quality. This will lower re-
tail prioces markedly if returning has been widespread.
I guess I'm not one to talk since I once went through hundreds of souvenir
sets looking for choice coins. Most of the ones I bought were just so I could
keep looking. There weren't very many gems.
As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you. >>
There are much worse abuses of tax payer money than this. lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Ron
The 70s will be offered at lets say 10 times the price of the 69s which will be twice the price
of the 68s.
Camelot
<< <i>The Mint should have all of the special coinage, graded as the coins come out of the presses.
The 70s will be offered at lets say 10 times the price of the 69s which will be twice the price
of the 68s. >>
By golly Mr. Bear Sir you might be on to something there, Cut Out The Middle Man.
Ron
<< <i>As a taxpayer, I am outraged that a company would take advantage of the Mint and attempt to make money to the disadvantage of all the other customers. In the end, the taxpayer foots the net cost of all the returns.
If you post your company name, I will be sure to not buy from you. >>
There are much worse abuses of tax payer money than this. lol >>
Does that mean that something should only be done about the very worst abuse of taxpayer money, and all others get a pass? Just because there are worse cases than this, doesn't mean this isn't an issue.
Just as an earlier poster said "you spends your dimes, you takes your chances". That's how I was taught to live. I have never returned a coin I purchased, whether it was from a large company or an individual selling on ebay. I know there is always a risk buying that way and I am willing to accept the wins as well as the losses.
The OP says he can't sell the 69's and below. Not even at a break-even price? I really find that hard to believe.
Actions like this discredit the entire "hobby" - I'll use that term loosely here, because it's obviously not a hobby to the OP.
Sorry, no sympathy here.
<< <i>Well, I've just thought of a way to get the Mint to improve their product quality. Everybody return everything that isn't 100% PERFECT. Let's see what happens to their cost structure, and to their prices >>
The Mint would just institute a no return policy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What is your plan now that you are potentially cut-off from returns? >>
I have no plans going forward. The picking out of quality presidential proofs is not very lucrative as I DO NOT cherrypick entire sets - I am just looking for quality coins and I have no idea if they will grade PF70 or not. I guess a person could easily do a work around and just use a different credit card, pay by check, change address to a PO, etc. Since I only dealt in the presidential proof sets and the mint decided that I was NOT playing by the rules, I will stop the practice completely. In the past I followed each and every rule posted by the mint - if the mint states that I can no longer return coins, then I will live by that rule also.
I've noticed in some past threads (Gold spouse, Reverse Platinum proofs, 25th Anniversary eagles, the pending giant silver parks coin) people create multiple accounts to circumvent the mint's household limits. This in my opinion is far worse than a high return rate. If I kept a decent coin in the past (say, the Washington proof dollar) I also kept the other 3 in the set regardless of condition. So even with my high return rate, 75% of my coins were not cherrypicked and the one that I liked would grade less than PF70 50% of the time. That translates into 7 out of 8 coins would grade PF69 or lower (>84%) hardly a successful cherrypicking. Conversely, creating multiple accounts is a direct ripoff on those who want to collect modern issues. I even think that multiple accounts is expressly forbidden by the mint.
Jeff
I also think it would be fine for the Mint to cut a deal with PCGS to have onsite graders pre-screening 70's. I won't buy them, but I don't care if they do it.
Bill, I don't want to be on the list for the Spouse Abuse Awareness Commemorative Sac...tacky...really tacky.
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
Jeff
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
Jeff >>
Jeff, would you deal with a customer like you???
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps the OP has forgotten that proof is a method of manufacture and NOT a specification of quality. That being said, one should expect above average quality for a carefully made item and there really is no excuse for some of the crap that makes its way into those sets. Then again, I don't blame the mint for cutting you off for excess returning of near perfect stuff. >>
Actually a good point. It isn't that I have forgotten, it is more of an expectation and apparently a false expectation given the overall quality of proofs from the mint. On a side not, if everyone agrees and understands that proofs are a PROCESS and not a SPECIFICATION of quality, then the argument I am getting from some people about getting my "cruddy" returns is a bit less meaningful. After all, those posters are ordering proofs because of the process and my PF69 returns should make no difference to them
Jeff >>
Digging deeper, deeper.