Just thought I would add this one related mint story. Recently the US Mint had a booth at the coin show held in Milwaukee Wisconsin (not the last coin show but the one before that - about 3 years ago). I was at that show and my business partner and I asked if we could look through the presidential proof sets that they brought with them. We explained exactly why we were doing it (quality, better rinse,etc.). We were allowed to go behind the curtain with police officers and check as many sets as we wanted. They observed us opening each package and either setting it aside or putting it back. Since we told them that we would be buying as many sets as we could, they were perfectly willing to give us that latitude. To tell you the truth it seemed kinda of strange walking around under armed guard checking coins. We ended up buying about 100 sets - none of these were returned.
I am only telling this story to illuminate the drastic change in policy and for those of you who will only choose to read the last post, this is not a rationalization for continuing to prescreen coins or a justification for doing so in the past. This is simply an interesting story (well, I think it was quite interesting at the time).
Just for the record, my returns were WELL below 10%. Grade 69s are okay to me. I have a bunch to sell.
I do think greater than 50% is a tad abusive, but I still maintain that the Mint was making a killing, no policies were violated and no one was hurt.
One of the reasons I feel STRONGLY that Eagle returns did not have any adverse affect is the fact that I would buy in batches. I might buy up to 5 or 6 batches per year. I would buy at the beginning and buy at the end, and I never saw a reduction in grade 70 coins that would have prompted me to change my buying habits. Anyone with at least 10,000 Eagle purchases can feel free to disagree. However, I don't think you will.
The Mint produced more coins than sold and they didn't recycle until right before they basically shut the Eagles Program down. THEY WERE MAKING HUGE PROFITS SO WHY SHOULD THEY CARE? WHY SHOULD WE? (Maybe so we could pay less taxes) AND NOW THEY ARE IN THE RED, which means now WE ALL are paying for this policy change.
Sometimes I wonder what has happened to logical, rational thought.
Were I the mint, I would simply hold your return for 60 days. If the bullion market went up I would honor the return, if remained the same or went down, I would return your return and request that you file for an RA(return authorization) before attempting to return the bullion again, as do most companies. By the time this happened you would probably get the point. JMO
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
As someone who played the MS70/69 game with the mint at one time, you play the game, the rules change, you play by the new rules. I used to figure if i did well with the 70 grade rate, i would eat the rest and not return them, staying off the mints radar until absolutely necessary. You didnt stay under the radar so you got your tailfeathers singed. Live and learn
<< <i>Just for the record, my returns were WELL below 10%. Grade 69s are okay to me. I have a bunch to sell.
I do think greater than 50% is a tad abusive, but I still maintain that the Mint was making a killing, no policies were violated and no one was hurt.
One of the reasons I feel STRONGLY that Eagle returns did not have any adverse affect is the fact that I would buy in batches. I might buy up to 5 or 6 batches per year. I would buy at the beginning and buy at the end, and I never saw a reduction in grade 70 coins that would have prompted me to change my buying habits. Anyone with at least 10,000 Eagle purchases can feel free to disagree. However, I don't think you will.
The Mint produced more coins than sold and they didn't recycle until right before they basically shut the Eagles Program down. THEY WERE MAKING HUGE PROFITS SO WHY SHOULD THEY CARE? WHY SHOULD WE? (Maybe so we could pay less taxes) AND NOW THEY ARE IN THE RED, which means now WE ALL are paying for this policy change.
Sometimes I wonder what has happened to logical, rational thought.
>>
I don't think they are in the RED by a long shot. They simply did not GET as many orders as they anticipated. Remember, they MAKE the money, sell it to the Federal Reserve at a huge mark up and sell collectors the exact same coins for an even BIGGER Markup.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I'm still wondering what you are going to do about it.
(I can't help but think a single major player in the PR70 pres. dollar biz is gone.... what will happen to prices?) >>
I thought I would turn this whole thing into an experiment so I stopped selling PF70 presidential proof coins (sets and individuals) as soon as the mint stopped allowing my returns. I still had approximately 40 PF70 coins for each of the four 2010 issues. I took all auctions off of ebay and contacted some major coin marts to inquire about their inventory - many had 0 and most were less than single digits of each president. At the time I stopped selling the PF70 issues, I sold the Lincolns for about $85.00 per coin and the rest of presidential issues for about $30-$35 per coin. I sold complete sets for as low as $180.00. It has been about 3 weeks now and there are few PF70 Lincolns on ebay but they are selling regularly for $110-$130 per coin 30-40% higher than the MRED - mint return exclusion day . Sets are now selling for near $300 - a full $115 higher than my regular sell price. So far it looks like my prescreening of coins is negatively correlated with price of PF70s. In other words, PF70s were more affordable to the coin collecting community when I was prescreening (of the 1200 or so NGC PF70 coins that have been graded by NGC, approximately 13% have come from me - information for sample size only). From a research point of view it is interesting because I did not consider my inventory large enough to affect pricing (supply/demand). I guess I will now sell off my inventory and see if there is reset in pricing to previous levels.
The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here? Is a higher availability of PF70 coins at a cheaper price a good thing or does the increased quantity of PF70 coins somehow make things less intriguing? What is preferable: Fewer people owning coins at higher value or more people owning the same coin at a lower cost? I don't know.
I think the market including the "plain sets" as well as the effect on the mint's bottom line needs to be considered.
I'll let others argue it out, tho.
(one note: (These are proof sets, so they need only be restocked... It is the uncirculated sets that get glued in such that open boxes need to be replaced. Not so on proof sets.)
<< <i>The coins from the US Mint had to be very bad for you to return them quality wise... How come I never had that problem ??? >>
He only returned those coins that were less than perfect 70's.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i> The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here?
Jeff >>
My issue was with you returning perfectly acceptable (not perfect, but perfectly acceptable in the marketplace) proof coins to the Mint to make money for yourself at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers, a group which happens to include me.
Recently I bought an 1891-O dime with a repunched mint mark. I could tell for sure that it was not the pricey O/horizontal O, but since I could not determine the variety number (there are several O/O dies for this year) I just ran it on our website as "O/O."
Some guy bought it, and then called to say that he was returning it because it was not the "O/Horizontal O." I told him that had it been the "O/horizontal O" I would have listed it that way, and priced it accordingly. He said that he thought I meant "O/horizontal O," but since it wasn't he was returning it.
Obviously he was hoping to cherrypick a rare variety, and when he did not get something for nothing decided to return it. He got what he ordered, but was not honorable enough to keep it.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here?
Jeff >>
My issue was with you returning perfectly acceptable (not perfect, but perfectly acceptable in the marketplace) proof coins to the Mint to make money for yourself at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers, a group which happens to include me.
Recently I bought an 1891-O dime with a repunched mint mark. I could tell for sure that it was not the pricey O/horizontal O, but since I could not determine the variety number (there are several O/O dies for this year) I just ran it on our website as "O/O."
Some guy bought it, and then called to say that he was returning it because it was not the "O/Horizontal O." I told him that had it been the "O/horizontal O" I would have listed it that way, and priced it accordingly. He said that he thought I meant "O/horizontal O," but since it wasn't he was returning it.
Obviously he was hoping to cherrypick a rare variety, and when he did not get something for nothing decided to return it. He got what he ordered, but was not honorable enough to keep it.
TD >>
Please do not question my honor or imply that somehow you are in a position to judge honorability in a person you have not met. If you would have read the post, you would have noted that I never asked for or expected sympathy and have suspended my business practices due to the mint's request (even though it would be a very simple matter of continuing). I suspect these are the qualities of honor and name calling is a quality of dishonor. I tried my hardest in this forum to present a story (hopefully of some interest) without rationalizing or justifying my past business procedures.
Also, my question was meant to ask a theoretical question about supply and demand - not to rehash those things previously discussed. The question was meant to ask what would the collector community like to see more - higher amounts of PF70 coins at a cheaper price so more people could have access to them or fewer PF70s at a much higher price so few people had access to them - this questions assumes any issue with the mint and taxes and other issues are not present.
<< <i>How many did you return? Was it all 2010 SAE proofs? >>
Nah. I've been returning spouses to ensure I can pull a 70. >>
Who do you think you are.....Mickey Rooney??????
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The question was meant to ask what would the collector community like to see more - higher amounts of PF70 coins at a cheaper price so more people could have access to them or fewer PF70s at a much higher price so few people had access to them >>
It seems the most inexpensive way to get a PF70 coin is to get it from the Mint and make it oneself. By refusing to do business with dealers with high return rates, more collectors are likely to have access to PF70 quality coins at lower prices.
Thanks for posting your story. It's an interesting turn of events at the Mint and for your business.
<< <i>It seems the most inexpensive way to get a PF70 coin is to get it from the Mint and make it oneself. By refusing to do business with dealers with high return rates, more collectors are likely to have access to PF70 quality coins at lower prices.
Thanks for posting your story. It's an interesting turn of events at the Mint and for your business. >>
It won't affect the spouses that much since I never scored that many 70s. Buchanan was the best with maybe 4 proofs and 2 uncircs. I'm not a big timer. It's just the frequency.
Same story as stckplunge. I'm not complaining, just informing.
I think I am missing something here-not sure what. I do know if I were buying any product from anyone I do understand its not on the basis of approval to that degree-not to mention everything you tie up time wise and send back is costly not to mention gets dumped on the next person.
If you only want 70 product I suggest you buy it that way, already graded. Sure id love only highest graded coins but do not expect the US Mint to allow me to do what your describing, common sense tells me so.
This is probably why the Mint shortened its return policy to one week. Previously you could do a 100 coin bulk submission of gold (or whatever), submit them, and get them returned all before your credit card payment was do----------BigE
<< <i>This is probably why the Mint shortened its return policy to one week. Previously you could do a 100 coin bulk submission of gold (or whatever), submit them, and get them returned all before your credit card payment was do----------BigE >>
That's my guess too.
They said it was metals price speculation, but I'm thinking it was 70 grade speculation in reality.
Interesting thread. Arbitrage is always a risk-taking endeavor. Now it appears that the Mint will no longer fund the risk of return from the the would-be arbitragers, but that they must shoulder the risk themselves. I'd call this a Public Service Announcement: Caveat Emptor!
That said, everyone has a right to make a profit on their U.S. Mint resales; It's just that the Mint, apparently ain't playin' the return game any longer.
Good Luck.
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Comments
I am only telling this story to illuminate the drastic change in policy and for those of you who will only choose to read the last post, this is not a rationalization for continuing to prescreen coins or a justification for doing so in the past. This is simply an interesting story (well, I think it was quite interesting at the time).
Jeff
I do think greater than 50% is a tad abusive, but I still maintain that the Mint was making a killing, no policies were violated and no one was hurt.
One of the reasons I feel STRONGLY that Eagle returns did not have any adverse affect is the fact that I would buy in batches. I might buy up to 5 or 6 batches per year. I would buy at the beginning and buy at the end, and I never saw a reduction in grade 70 coins that would have prompted me to change my buying habits. Anyone with at least 10,000 Eagle purchases can feel free to disagree. However, I don't think you will.
The Mint produced more coins than sold and they didn't recycle until right before they basically shut the Eagles Program down. THEY WERE MAKING HUGE PROFITS SO WHY SHOULD THEY CARE? WHY SHOULD WE? (Maybe so we could pay less taxes) AND NOW THEY ARE IN THE RED, which means now WE ALL are paying for this policy change.
Sometimes I wonder what has happened to logical, rational thought.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>Just for the record, my returns were WELL below 10%. Grade 69s are okay to me. I have a bunch to sell.
I do think greater than 50% is a tad abusive, but I still maintain that the Mint was making a killing, no policies were violated and no one was hurt.
One of the reasons I feel STRONGLY that Eagle returns did not have any adverse affect is the fact that I would buy in batches. I might buy up to 5 or 6 batches per year. I would buy at the beginning and buy at the end, and I never saw a reduction in grade 70 coins that would have prompted me to change my buying habits. Anyone with at least 10,000 Eagle purchases can feel free to disagree. However, I don't think you will.
The Mint produced more coins than sold and they didn't recycle until right before they basically shut the Eagles Program down. THEY WERE MAKING HUGE PROFITS SO WHY SHOULD THEY CARE? WHY SHOULD WE? (Maybe so we could pay less taxes) AND NOW THEY ARE IN THE RED, which means now WE ALL are paying for this policy change.
Sometimes I wonder what has happened to logical, rational thought.
I don't think they are in the RED by a long shot. They simply did not GET as many orders as they anticipated. Remember, they MAKE the money, sell it to the Federal Reserve at a huge mark up and sell collectors the exact same coins for an even BIGGER Markup.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'm still wondering what you are going to do about it.
(I can't help but think a single major player in the PR70 pres. dollar biz is gone.... what will happen to prices?) >>
I thought I would turn this whole thing into an experiment so I stopped selling PF70 presidential proof coins (sets and individuals) as soon as the mint stopped allowing my returns. I still had approximately 40 PF70 coins for each of the four 2010 issues. I took all auctions off of ebay and contacted some major coin marts to inquire about their inventory - many had 0 and most were less than single digits of each president. At the time I stopped selling the PF70 issues, I sold the Lincolns for about $85.00 per coin and the rest of presidential issues for about $30-$35 per coin. I sold complete sets for as low as $180.00. It has been about 3 weeks now and there are few PF70 Lincolns on ebay but they are selling regularly for $110-$130 per coin 30-40% higher than the MRED - mint return exclusion day
The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here? Is a higher availability of PF70 coins at a cheaper price a good thing or does the increased quantity of PF70 coins somehow make things less intriguing? What is preferable: Fewer people owning coins at higher value or more people owning the same coin at a lower cost? I don't know.
Jeff
I'll let others argue it out, tho.
(one note:
(These are proof sets, so they need only be restocked... It is the uncirculated sets that get glued in such that open boxes need to be replaced. Not so on proof sets.)
<< <i>The coins from the US Mint had to be very bad for you to return them quality wise... How come I never had that problem ??? >>
He only returned those coins that were less than perfect 70's.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here?
Jeff >>
My issue was with you returning perfectly acceptable (not perfect, but perfectly acceptable in the marketplace) proof coins to the Mint to make money for yourself at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers, a group which happens to include me.
Recently I bought an 1891-O dime with a repunched mint mark. I could tell for sure that it was not the pricey O/horizontal O, but since I could not determine the variety number (there are several O/O dies for this year) I just ran it on our website as "O/O."
Some guy bought it, and then called to say that he was returning it because it was not the "O/Horizontal O." I told him that had it been the "O/horizontal O" I would have listed it that way, and priced it accordingly. He said that he thought I meant "O/horizontal O," but since it wasn't he was returning it.
Obviously he was hoping to cherrypick a rare variety, and when he did not get something for nothing decided to return it. He got what he ordered, but was not honorable enough to keep it.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>
The questions is - If everything was fine with the mint and my high return rate was not an issue what would be the issue here?
Jeff >>
My issue was with you returning perfectly acceptable (not perfect, but perfectly acceptable in the marketplace) proof coins to the Mint to make money for yourself at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers, a group which happens to include me.
Recently I bought an 1891-O dime with a repunched mint mark. I could tell for sure that it was not the pricey O/horizontal O, but since I could not determine the variety number (there are several O/O dies for this year) I just ran it on our website as "O/O."
Some guy bought it, and then called to say that he was returning it because it was not the "O/Horizontal O." I told him that had it been the "O/horizontal O" I would have listed it that way, and priced it accordingly. He said that he thought I meant "O/horizontal O," but since it wasn't he was returning it.
Obviously he was hoping to cherrypick a rare variety, and when he did not get something for nothing decided to return it. He got what he ordered, but was not honorable enough to keep it.
TD >>
Please do not question my honor or imply that somehow you are in a position to judge honorability in a person you have not met. If you would have read the post, you would have noted that I never asked for or expected sympathy and have suspended my business practices due to the mint's request (even though it would be a very simple matter of continuing). I suspect these are the qualities of honor and name calling is a quality of dishonor. I tried my hardest in this forum to present a story (hopefully of some interest) without rationalizing or justifying my past business procedures.
Also, my question was meant to ask a theoretical question about supply and demand - not to rehash those things previously discussed. The question was meant to ask what would the collector community like to see more - higher amounts of PF70 coins at a cheaper price so more people could have access to them or fewer PF70s at a much higher price so few people had access to them - this questions assumes any issue with the mint and taxes and other issues are not present.
My returns are "curtailed."
No one came out and said it, but I got a lot of flak on the last return.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>How many did you return? Was it all 2010 SAE proofs? >>
Nah. I've been returning spouses to ensure I can pull a 70.
<< <i>
<< <i>How many did you return? Was it all 2010 SAE proofs? >>
Nah. I've been returning spouses to ensure I can pull a 70. >>
Who do you think you are.....Mickey Rooney??????
<< <i>The question was meant to ask what would the collector community like to see more - higher amounts of PF70 coins at a cheaper price so more people could have access to them or fewer PF70s at a much higher price so few people had access to them >>
It seems the most inexpensive way to get a PF70 coin is to get it from the Mint and make it oneself. By refusing to do business with dealers with high return rates, more collectors are likely to have access to PF70 quality coins at lower prices.
Thanks for posting your story. It's an interesting turn of events at the Mint and for your business.
<< <i>It seems the most inexpensive way to get a PF70 coin is to get it from the Mint and make it oneself.
By refusing to do business with dealers with high return rates, more collectors are likely to have access to PF70 quality coins at lower prices.
Thanks for posting your story. It's an interesting turn of events at the Mint and for your business. >>
It won't affect the spouses that much since I never scored that many 70s. Buchanan was the best with maybe 4 proofs and 2 uncircs. I'm not a big timer. It's just the frequency.
Same story as stckplunge. I'm not complaining, just informing.
I do understand its not on the basis of approval to that degree-not to mention everything you tie up time
wise and send back is costly not to mention gets dumped on the next person.
If you only want 70 product I suggest you buy it that way, already graded. Sure id love only highest
graded coins but do not expect the US Mint to allow me to do what your describing, common sense
tells me so.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>This is probably why the Mint shortened its return policy to one week. Previously you could do a 100 coin bulk submission of gold (or whatever), submit them, and get them returned all before your credit card payment was do
That's my guess too.
They said it was metals price speculation, but I'm thinking it was 70 grade speculation in reality.
That said, everyone has a right to make a profit on their U.S. Mint resales; It's just that the Mint, apparently ain't playin' the return game any longer.
Good Luck.
Cheers!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES