Somebody from the US Mint called me - interesting development.

stckplunge

Last Friday, a US Mint employee (from their accounting department) called our business and notified us that we can no longer return ANY coins to the mint. A colleague of mine talked to her about their return policy and she said they reserve the right to refuse business from anyone they choose. We asked what rules we were breaking in order to receive this treatment and she stated that our return rate was too high. Now I will admit that we deal exclusively in modern issue coins in only PF/MS70 so our order rate is high and our return rate is also very high, but to ban any further returns seems a bit harsh - it isnt like they are not making $1000s on my orders.

In any case, what are the ramifications for bigger businesses that may do this flipping strategy. The way I see it, is that the supply of PF70/MS70s may go way down thus increasing the price that dealers willing to take the chance on not being able to return lousy condition proofs will be able to charge. I would be curios to know if any other companies that deal in large quantities of coins and have large return rates have heard anything from the mint concerning this issue. My colleague and I argued the return policy with this woman and she even threatened legal action if we return any further orders and dispute the lack of credit to that card threatened by the US Mint. Since the credit card only requires proof of return and adherence to the posted return policy (which by the way is returns for any reason... within 7 days) I think it would be hard for the Mint to enforce this "return for any reason policy except if you return too many" policy.

I know the anti flippers will be happy about this and the flippers will have to potentially find a way around it...

Jeff

joebb21

Personally I wouldn't want to deal with such a customer who returns so much either.

RWB

Many businesses have the same approach: too many returns and you are cut off. It costs more to process a return than to process the original sale, so those who abuse return privileges should expect to accept the consequences of their actions.

lcoopie

personally I do not expect to get xx-70 coins when I buy from the mint,
as they are not selling coins purported to be xx-70.

blu62vette

A question to the OP....why are so many coins returned instead of just releasing them onto the market via wholesale or other methods?

Buffalode

I don't know that the refusal to accept any returns could be enforced but I think they would probably refuse to do any further sales. If I remember it right, they have a policy that allows them to refuse any order deemed in their judgement not in the "best interests" of the Mint, or words to that effect. Since that determination is up to the Mint, I don't know how it could be challenged.

Cladiator

Out of 100 coins, on average how many do you return?

If I were "banned" from returning items I'd want it in writting.

DennisH

Are you looking through what they send you, cherrypicking what you think are the best ones, and then sending back the rest?

cheezhed

I'm not feeling any sympathy.

Bochiman

Good for the USMint (can't believe I just complimented them after all their boneheaded issues over the last few years )!

I know there are some dealers/flippers who buy big from the mint and take their "leftovers" and, instead of just returning them, they sell on ebay (or cut up for singles then sell) at or around cost. They may lose a little due to ebay/paypal fees but they figure that into their cost structure and make up for it wiht the 70s that they get.

I don't understand why you want to fight the information in the call since they are a business and you are impacting their business. It's their right. All folks like you do is to screw it up for the masses (remember when there was a 30 day return policy until people kept playing the bullion game and screwed everybody? )

I flip small bits, so I don't think I am an anti-flipper, but I am against those that push the envelope for their own good at the risk of screwing everybody else.

nycounsel

I'm not an anti-flipper; I have nothing against someone making a quick profit, but I am no fan of 70 cherrypickers.

It seems to me that when buying from the Mint, raw coins that would grade PF68 or higher or MS67 or higher should be considered reasonably acceptable. I understand that the profits are in the 70 coins, but I think those who return coins for minute imperfections create a drag on the system that drive costs up for everyone. I think the only surprise in this story for me is that the Mint actually did something about it; the return rate must have been pretty bad to result in Mint employees actually doing something.

LindeDad

I also have no problem with the Mints action. If all you want are the 70's why should the rest of us pay your way.

nycounsel

The other problem with people who are in the business of bulk buy and return schemes is that it hurts the little guy; the collector who buys downstream and who receives the coins that were returned.

stckplunge

<< <i>A question to the OP....why are so many coins returned instead of just releasing them onto the market via wholesale or other methods? >>



Most of the "leftovers" are sold to the market in bulk. However, a great deal of the coins I receive from the mint (proofs) should not be sold at all. A person pays a premium for a proof coin and the quality should represent this premium. With that said, I return in excess of 50% of what I buy. Since I buy in bulk the cost of re-shelving certainly is not anywhere near the profit and business they are going to lose. Some people that have responded so far might be surprised that I dont really have any sympathy for the buyer (me in this case) either. I was just more or less interested in how they are going to enforce this rule. If I wanted to , and I probably will NOT, I could just get a different card and mailing address.

J

truthteller

My colleague and I argued the return policy with this woman


Why? If a business no longer wants to serve you, they don't have to. Move on.



TRUTH

slipgate

50% return rate? YES! You should be banned!

The US Mint should have a policy for institutional buyers that NO RETURNS are allowed unless damaged in shipment. Either that or a 50% restocking fee and you pay postage back.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>A question to the OP....why are so many coins returned instead of just releasing them onto the market via wholesale or other methods? >>



Most of the "leftovers" are sold to the market in bulk. However, a great deal of the coins I receive from the mint (proofs) should not be sold at all. A person pays a premium for a proof coin and the quality should represent this premium. With that said, I return in excess of 50% of what I buy. Since I buy in bulk the cost of re-shelving certainly is not anywhere near the profit and business they are going to lose. Some people that have responded so far might be surprised that I dont really have any sympathy for the buyer (me in this case) either. I was just more or less interested in how they are going to enforce this rule. If I wanted to , and I probably will NOT, I could just get a different card and mailing address.

J >>



I think enforcement could come in the form or someone reviewing excessively large orders thereby delaying those orders.
For what it worth, it appears that they are doing just that since you've obviously ordered some large quantities and returned more than half of what you bought.

Now, it looks like you're going to have to do your "bulk" purchases from someone else and hope that they undertand your return policy.

DrBuster

I wouldn't want to deal with 50%+ returns from anybody on anything over, say, 20 orders.

Buffalode

I have seen several 70 graded coins that did have some type of visible flaw even though they were graded 70. Most do if examined closely enough. If your business had a customer examining every 70 grade coin under high maginification and returning more than 50% of them because the quality was not up to their expectations, what would your response be? At some point, the expectation of a certain quality level exceeds what should be expected.

Coinsponge

No wonder I usually get some cruddy coins from the mint. They are probably your returns. Maybe I have a better chance for a 70 now. Nothing personal but I applaud the Mint's action here as a change for everyones fairness, not just the big bucks. I think it would be easier just to have a heavy restocking fee though. That would stop the mass return problem.

blu62vette

As far as enforcement, here is my guess: the next time you return an order your account is cancelled.

FunwithMPL

Good for the Mint.

I think it isn't right to cherry pick coins from the mint and return the one you don't want.

cmerlo1

I have to side with the mint on this one.

The OP sounds like a classic "problem customer" with standards so high they are impossible to meet, and the business is easier and less costly to run without them.

kryptonitecomics

I have always been surprised they allowed as many returns as they do for undamanged coins......so I think this is a step in the right direction. Coins that are damaged or in damaged packaging I could see being replaced by coins that don't meet a certain grade should not be returned...in this one mans opinion

DuPapa

I'm nearly at a loss for words. Abuse of the system. Highly dis honest. What if everyone did so?

messydesk

With a return rate of 50%, the mint should have told you to pound sand a long time ago as most other sellers would have. They're not in business simply to enable you or anyone else to play the 70 game. I assume you're not the only problem buyer they have, either. I'm not sure how they're going to enforce it, but perhaps they will have different return policies for large orders going forward. They could also put a security seal of some sort on capsules and holders and disallow returns on those that have been opened. Then announce that 30% of the coins they produce will have a small nick placed on the edge somewhere and not grade higher than 68.

Coinsponge

<< <i>I'm nearly at a loss for words. Abuse of the system. Highly dis honest. What if everyone did so? >>



You might blame the abuser of the system but really it is the Mint's responsibility to fix the holes that allow this. Looks like they are doing something now. Sadly, most fixes to abuses results in everyone getting hurt though.

19Lyds

<< <i>No wonder I usually get some cruddy coins from the mint. They are probably your returns. Maybe I have a better chance for a 70 now. Nothing personal but I applaud the Mint's action here as a change for everyones fairness, not just the big bucks. I think it would be easier just to have a heavy restocking fee though. That would stop the mass return problem. >>

I don't really think so since the US Mint is fully capable or minting and selling some realy junk!

If you make your orders on release day, you'll guarantee not receiving someone's returns.
If you order half way througgh the ordering period, it's possible you'll receive someones returns.
If you order close to the end of the sales period, you are guaranteeing you'll receive someones returns.

Coinsponge

<< <i>

<< <i>No wonder I usually get some cruddy coins from the mint. They are probably your returns. Maybe I have a better chance for a 70 now. Nothing personal but I applaud the Mint's action here as a change for everyones fairness, not just the big bucks. I think it would be easier just to have a heavy restocking fee though. That would stop the mass return problem. >>

I don't really think so since the US Mint is fully capable or minting and selling some realy junk!

If you make your orders on release day, you'll guarantee not receiving someone's returns.
If you order half way througgh the ordering period, it's possible you'll receive someones returns.
If you order close to the end of the sales period, you are guaranteeing you'll receive someones returns. >>



True, but you can't always buy on release day. Shouldn't have to buy the culls from the early bird when I am paying full fare.

PerryHall

<< <i>I'm not feeling any sympathy. >>



Neither am I. Good for the U.S. Mint and the American tax payers.

HalfStrike

The mint can cancel and refuse orders from anyone and will be using that one it sounds like. If they tried to ship back to you your last returns you might have a leg to stand on but they can pull the rug out from under anyone on future orders.

AUandAG

I've had rolls that were returned sent to me. Yes, partially opened Presidential Dollar rolls, just
sent right back out again. So, someone else searched the edges of say 20 coins and didn't see what
they wanted and sent them back. Why the mint just sent out partially opened rolls again is beyond
reasonable thinking. But, I got the shaft.
So, anything the mint can do in regards to returns is JUST FINE WITH ME! What I don't keep I spend
or resell on Ebay. No problem doing so.

bob

JamesMurray

I can't help notice 50% return was not mentioned as other members have picked up on.It's in excess of 50% which can mean something quite different.

renomedphys

GOOD!

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>No wonder I usually get some cruddy coins from the mint. They are probably your returns. Maybe I have a better chance for a 70 now. Nothing personal but I applaud the Mint's action here as a change for everyones fairness, not just the big bucks. I think it would be easier just to have a heavy restocking fee though. That would stop the mass return problem. >>

I don't really think so since the US Mint is fully capable or minting and selling some realy junk!

If you make your orders on release day, you'll guarantee not receiving someone's returns.
If you order half way througgh the ordering period, it's possible you'll receive someones returns.
If you order close to the end of the sales period, you are guaranteeing you'll receive someones returns. >>



True, but you can't always buy on release day. Shouldn't have to buy the culls from the early bird when I am paying full fare. >>

The OP wasn't refering to CULLS, he was referring to MS/PR69 or lower.

cmerlo1

I had another thought:

If 50% of the mint's product had MS70 potential, there would probably be less if any premiums on moderns with that grade, collapsing the MS70 modern market, IMHO...

19Lyds

<< <i>I've had rolls that were returned sent to me. Yes, partially opened Presidential Dollar rolls, just
sent right back out again. So, someone else searched the edges of say 20 coins and didn't see what
they wanted and sent them back. Why the mint just sent out partially opened rolls again is beyond
reasonable thinking. But, I got the shaft.
So, anything the mint can do in regards to returns is JUST FINE WITH ME! What I don't keep I spend
or resell on Ebay. No problem doing so.

bob >>

I;'d have returned a partially opened roll if the Mint had sent it to me. I would have been on the telephone first though.

For the record, I have never returned a US Mint roll. Proof Sets, Mint Sets and SAE's yes, rolls no.

And before the crawling masses can scream foul, my returns are for scratched or dinged coins as these are damaged IMO.

PerryHall

Did the OP really expect any sympathy from this forum?

Bochiman

<< <i>I'm not feeling any sympathy. >>



You noticed that too, eh?

ElKevvo

I have gotten some items from the Mint that needed to be returned...sorry but a proof set with visible scratches on it is not what I was looking for or paid for.

But cherry picking Mint sets and then returning the rest is not cool.... The Mint should crack down on this more often. And the OP is right, the flippers will find a way around it...but it is still not kosher IMO.

K

291fifth

A wise move on the part of the US Mint.

tahoe98

...i understand walmart does the same thing for the same reasons.

BillJones

When I was a dealer I returned some Proof sets because they had fingerprints on one of the coins, or the coins were defective. Here was the worst Proof coin I ever received from the mint. It was probably a valuable mint error, but I wanted no part of it.



Frankly I don't blame the mint for dropping you as a customer. It seems that your goal was to only take sets that contained PR-70 grade coins and return the rest. As such you were a drag on their cost profiles and in turn a drag on those us who pay taxes and buy mint products. What obligation do the rest of us have to subsidize your business?

I would expect the mint to deliver Proof coins that grade at least PR-67 or 68. I would not expect them to deliver ONLY PR-70 grade coins. And it really doesn’t bother me if the supply of PR-70 coins does grow short because as a collector, I refuse to pay the price for them. If a dealer sells me one for $20 or $25 for my registry type set, that’s great. And yes I have purchased NGC PR-70 coins for that kind of money. But if not I’m just as happy with a PR-69.

cmerlo1

<< <i>When I was a dealer I returned some Proof sets because they had fingerprints on one of the coins, or the coins were defective. Here was the worst Proof coin I ever received from the mint. It was probably a valuable mint error, but I wanted no part of it.



Frankly I don't blame the mint for dropping you as a customer. It seems that your goal was to only take sets that contained PR-70 grade coins and return the rest. As such you were a drag on their cost profiles and in turn a drag on those us who pay taxes and buy mint products. What obligation do the rest of us have to subsidize your business?

I would expect the mint to deliver Proof coins that grade at least PR-67 or 68. I would not expect them to deliver ONLY PR-70 grade coins. And it really doesn’t bother me if the supply of PR-70 coins does grow short because as a collector, I refuse to pay the price for them. If a dealer sells me one for $20 or $25 for my registry type set, that’s great. And yes I have purchased NGC PR-70 coins for that kind of money. But if not I’m just as happy with a PR-69. >>




If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands...

Coinsponge

True, but you can't always buy on release day. Shouldn't have to buy the culls from the early bird when I am paying full fare. >>

The OP wasn't refering to CULLS, he was referring to MS/PR69 or lower. >>




LOL

BillJones

<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>



Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint.

UtahCoin

<< <i>Personally I wouldn't want to deal with such a customer who returns so much either. >>

19Lyds

<< <i>When I was a dealer I returned some Proof sets because they had fingerprints on one of the coins, or the coins were defective. Here was the worst Proof coin I ever received from the mint. It was probably a valuable mint error, but I wanted no part of it.

>>


Dang Bill, you shoulda called me!

CaptHenway

We need somebody to create one of those moving emoticans that shows two guys with sledgehammers standing over a pile of sand

POUNDING SAND!!!!!!!

so that we can use it for OP's like this.

TD

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>If I received a coin like the one in your post, I would be thrilled. Please let me know when you receive another one like it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands... >>



Given the cost of selling coins on the Internet, it would not have been worth the bother to me to hunt up a customer for this item. I had no presence on Ebay, and even if I had offered it in the "Swaps and Sales" area of a forum like this, which I could not have done because it was not certified, I never got any responses for such offerings. I'm still glad I sent this thing back to the mint. >>

A PM would have been responded to immediately Bill! Make note of the forum handle............19LYDS

Coinsponge

<< <i>When I was a dealer I returned some Proof sets because they had fingerprints on one of the coins, or the coins were defective. Here was the worst Proof coin I ever received from the mint. It was probably a valuable mint error, but I wanted no part of it.



Frankly I don't blame the mint for dropping you as a customer. It seems that your goal was to only take sets that contained PR-70 grade coins and return the rest. As such you were a drag on their cost profiles and in turn a drag on those us who pay taxes and buy mint products. What obligation do the rest of us have to subsidize your business?

I would expect the mint to deliver Proof coins that grade at least PR-67 or 68. I would not expect them to deliver ONLY PR-70 grade coins. And it really doesn’t bother me if the supply of PR-70 coins does grow short because as a collector, I refuse to pay the price for them. If a dealer sells me one for $20 or $25 for my registry type set, that’s great. And yes I have purchased NGC PR-70 coins for that kind of money. But if not I’m just as happy with a PR-69. >>




I don't collect freak coin errors myself but that one would even get me looking twice.