Newp 1793 Liberty Cap Large Cent! EDGE Pics added in last post!

AnkurJ

This is the last key date large cent I needed for my date set, and a board member offered me one priced right! It is a AG 3 but with the hits and porosity it goes down to a Fair 2.
Not much to see on the reverse, but the pic is up anyway.
Hopefully one day I can upgrade it to one with more detail, but until then.....



AJ

STONE

While not the prettiest coin, it is a toughie, and fills that void.

Also, a correction on grade - without the hits the coin is a PO-01 or FR-02, it's not anywhere near AG-3 details

AnkurJ

Stone: take a look at other AG3's and F2's from Heritage. This is right in that area.

STONE

I just dont see how this coin can be worn down much more than it already is!

I'll take your word that it looks like AG-3's, but if I were grading this coin I'd call it a FR-02

Bochiman

I think there is enough liberty and date left to make it AG3.
If I saw it as FR02, I would think that was a bit harsh.

Tough coin to fill a slot.

AnkurJ

Here are a few Heritage examples for comparison:

AG 3

Fair 2

Based on those, its better than a Fair, but not as nice as a AG 3.

And here is one that is worn almost to nothingness:

1793 Cent

OregonCityGold

Very nice! It's pretty cool that the date and "Liberty" are so clear. I love every 1793 cent and half cent I've ever owned. Even the most worn examples have a numismatic aura that's captivated serious collectors for 160+ years. Every 1793 US federal coin gets my attention and sparks my imagination. I have a hunch you feel the same way.

AnkurJ

It sure does Oregon! Now I have every 1793 US Cent!

HoledandCreative

A very nice acquisition. Easily the toughest Large Cent to acquire in any condition, unless you are going for a Sheldon run.

Unknown

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291fifth

My opinion: Fair obverse & Poor reverse does not equal AG3.

RedHerring

Glad you were able to get that hole filled.

My grade would be FR02.

melvin289

Ah but the stories that coin could tell. The places it's been, the events it's witnessed, and the secrets it's known.
Think of the "hush money" that coin could probably collect and those willing to pay to keep it quite. The pockets, the shoes or socks, and the undergarments it's been hidden in. THe purchases it's made could fill a book. The famous people that have used it. The nobodies that have possessed it. The children that have cherished it. The purchasing power it once had.

Personally, I think it's beautiful.

Ron

Waltz

Congratulations on a wonderful coin. I have one in ANACS net G-4. For the haters here, please keep in mind that only 150 1793 Liberty Caps are in existence. It's the lowest mintage cent in U.S. history. People saving an example of the first year in U.S. coinage often saved the chain cent since it was the first type.

Great coin!

ricko

Great acquisition. I would love to have one of those... congratulations. Cheers, RickO

lkenefic

Nice pick up on perhaps the toughest coin in the series.

@Waltz... I don't think anyone here is a "hater". This is somewhat an over the top assessment of people simply giving their opinion on grade.

FWIW, I think there's enough detail left in "Liberty" and a readable date to give the obverse an AG3. The reverses on early copper seemingly wear out quicker or were just more weakly struck. Perhaps this was taken into consideration for the overall grade.

Leo

BillJones

The EAC grade would be BS-1 (Basal State 1), which today translates to PR-01. I'm not sure than it will grade because of the two punch marks that are on the obverse, but it is an identifiable example of a rare and popular coin. Back in the 1970s I cherry picked the variety with the bisecting obverse die break at a small coin show for $10. That piece was very porous and did not have a readable date. (If you could have seen the date, there would have been no cherrypick.) It did have a bit more detail than this one. And yea I sold it for $50 a couple weeks later.

So far as upgrades go, that is going to be a problem. These coins bring HUGE money when they are only approaching “decent.” It’s one of the reasons why I’m no fan of this type even though it has all the history with John Wright, the artist who made the dies. He died during the yellow fever epidemic of September 1793. It was a great loss to the first U.S. mint. EAC people speak of him in great regard. Herb Silberman, who was one of the founders of EAC, once told me that the 1793 Liberty Cap was the most beautiful coin the U.S. mint has ever made. That to me is a bit much, given such coins as the 1907 High Relief $20 gold, but it shows the reverence that EAC people have for these coins.

AnkurJ

I understand why others may not like this coin in the state its in. But we all have to collect what we can afford. The ANACS Fair 2 in Heritage has far less details than mine. Take a look and you will see thst these coins bring huge prices in ANY grade! If I wanted a decent G6, it would probably run close to $12k!

AJ

Walkerguy21D

Glad you are happy with it, Ankur.
As an S-13 (yes, there is enough detail on this Fair+ example to discern the variety), it is the most 'common' '93 Liberty Cap, but still an R-4 coin.
Heritage archives indicates they auction roughly 2 coins per year, and a PCGS AG brought over $9k a few months back. Any example is worthwhile to large cent collectors. For those who prefer rainbow toned Morgans, well this coin is probably lost on you

BillJones

You probably don't want to see the slide I have of one of these coins that grades AU-58 on the EAC scale (probably MS-63 in at slab). That one is worth more than my house, especially since house prices are down in Florida. I took the picture years ago at one of the EAC conventions.

rays

Any 93 liberty cap with a readable date is desirable. Grading from a photograph is tricky, as sometimes these low grade cents are more attractive in hand than it may seem. Nevertheless, Ankur's cent looks to me to be Fair 2 obverse and Poor 1 on the reverse for a net grade of Fr-2.

My example I bought raw from a Stacks sale and it slabbed G6:

Barry

If it makes you happy, that's what counts. Personally, I would have waited either for a better example or until I could afford one.

IrishMikey

<< <i>You probably don't want to see the slide I have of one of these coins that grades AU-58 on the EAC scale (probably MS-63 in at slab). That one is worth more than my house, especially since house prices are down in Florida. I took the picture years ago at one of the EAC conventions. >>



I would love to see an image of that coin! Can you convert it and show it here?

IrishMikey

By the way, nice addition to your set, Ankur. I think a Net grade of Fair-2 sounds right. Another member
said that only 150 of these have survived -- is that right? If so, that puts you in pretty rare company.

shorecoll

I sold the only one I ever owned about 10 years ago, looked about like Rays. These are cool even beaten to death and run over by a truck...so congrats!!!

I held a raw matched set of VF/XF chain/cap/wreath in my hands in the 1980's...thought the guy was nuts on his asking price (high $20k's I think)...I could have retired.

CoinRaritiesOnline

Ankur -- can you show us images of the edge?

sparky64

Congratulations AnkurJ.
I understand your excitement and would be glad to have that coin myself.

divecchia

Congrats on the pickup...

If you are happy with the coin that's all that counts, regardless of the grade...

Donato

OregonCityGold

Rays, that's a beautiful obverse! I imagine the reverse is worn pretty flat, right? Do you have a pic you could post? It must be - what - a $15,000 - $20,000 coin?

mdwoods

My favorite large cent. I'd love to have one. Grats!!!

Colorfulcoins

Lowball doesn't have to be ugly (but can be). Here's my 1793 1c set:

1793 PCGS PO01 Chain, pop 23


1793 Wreath Vine and bars Edge PCGS PO01, pop 9


1793 Liberty Cap PCGS PO01 (no date but clear S13), pop 1

rays

<< <i>Rays, that's a beautiful obverse! I imagine the reverse is worn pretty flat, right? Do you have a pic you could post? It must be - what - a $15,000 - $20,000 coin? >>



Here is the reverse:

coinguy1

Have you had the coin authenticated by a trustworthy expert?

Longacre

It is a nice collector coin. I cannot give it a Plus or a sticker at this time, but I will give you a Plus and a sticker for buying a coin that you like and not worrying about what the Numismatic Joneses think.

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>Have you had the coin authenticated by a trustworthy expert? >>


Since he owned the coin less than 12 hr before he posted the picture, I'd say no, not yet.....but I stand behind what I sell unconditionally as to authenticity. And I purchased it from a long time EAC member who stands behind it as well.

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>Have you had the coin authenticated by a trustworthy expert? >>


Since he owned the coin less than 12 hr before he posted the picture, I'd say no, not yet.....but I stand behind what I sell unconditionally as to authenticity. And I purchased it from a long time EAC member who stands behind it as well. >>

That's good to hear. I didn't know where the coin came from.

Barry

<< <i>Have you had the coin authenticated by a trustworthy expert? >>


Uh oh. Are you thinking it's not legit, Mark?

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>Have you had the coin authenticated by a trustworthy expert? >>


Uh oh. Are you thinking it's not legit, Mark? >>

Barry, someone who had seen this thread and whose opinion I respect, raised the possibility. And for all parties concerned, I figure it can't be a bad thing to have it checked out.

AnkurJ

I wasnt planning on sending this in, but if something seems off I will.

What part of it doesnt look legit? I will post more pics tonight.

coinguy1

<< <i>I wasnt planning on sending this in, but if something seems off I will.

What part of it doesnt look legit? I will post more pics tonight. >>

Another poster asked about an image of the edge - that might be helpful. And there are probably plenty of early copper experts who could/would give an opinion, without your having to submit it to a grading company.

AnkurJ

Will post them tonight.

Walkerguy21D

I would like to know what the specific concerns are....I studied the coin closely in hand, and I don't believe it's a cast or electrotype forgery. I don't think it was altered from a later date cent, as it has all the attributes of a real S-13. It certainly is NOT a modern Chinese forgery, as this coin came out of a Wayte Raymond album a few weeks ago, where it had resided since the mid-60's. I will gladly have the original seller send it to Bob Grellman or Chris McAuley to check authenticity, gratas. Or I can take it to Summer FUN and have Tom Reynolds, etc. check it there. And of course, I'll make Ankur whole if the experts deem it to be misrepresented in any way.

coinguy1

<< <i>I would like to know what the specific concerns are....I studied the coin closely in hand, and I don't believe it's a cast or electrotype forgery. I don't think it was altered from a later date cent, as it has all the attributes of a real S-13. It certainly is NOT a modern Chinese forgery, as this coin came out of a Wayte Raymond album a few weeks ago, where it had resided since the mid-60's. I will gladly have the original seller send it to Bob Grellman or Chris McAuley to check authenticity, gratas. Or I can take it to Summer FUN and have Tom Reynolds, etc. check it there. And of course, I'll make Ankur whole if the experts deem it to be misrepresented in any way. >>

If that is the case, the coin is likely OK.

Walkerguy21D

I'm not claiming to be an expert, Mark, I just didn't see anything suspicious about this coin, but will gladly listen to valid concerns. Certainly there are fake and altered early large cents out there. I recently read a reprinted article from the Aug 1897 edition of the Numismatist, where the author was complaining about the plethora of fake 1799 cents (apparently doctoring and forgeries are not new problems!). Above all, I want Ankur to be confident in the coin, and will help as I can.

okracer

AnkurJ, great coin you have!

I have an S-13, AG3-G4.......even at a low grade, its one of my all time favorite coins!

It was also the last Large Cent to complete my Large Cent Set.........so, congrats!

...oh, and someone said, "If it makes you happy, that's what counts. Personally, I would have waited either for a better example or until I could afford one."

...well better examples go for $10,000 on up!

grote15

I'd grade it a solid FR-02.

AnkurJ

Edge pics below. They were very difficult to capture. One says For A, and the other has Dollar on it.





AJ

coinguy1

<< <i>I'm not claiming to be an expert, Mark, I just didn't see anything suspicious about this coin, but will gladly listen to valid concerns. Certainly there are fake and altered early large cents out there. I recently read a reprinted article from the Aug 1897 edition of the Numismatist, where the author was complaining about the plethora of fake 1799 cents (apparently doctoring and forgeries are not new problems!). Above all, I want Ankur to be confident in the coin, and will help as I can. >>

Sorry for being cryptic in my question and conmments about the coin. I just don't feel that it would be right of me to repeat a private conversation I had with a person who saw the thread and expressed a concern.

Based on what I have subsequently read in the thread and the images provided, it looks Ok to me. No matter what my opinion was, however, I would defer to the experts of early copper, who are more familiar with this type in this condition. I would like to commend you on your non- defensive, stand-up attitude.

RedHerring

Is it just me or do the edge photos appear much stronger than the obverse/reverse?

The edge photos look like a VG or better from here??

STONE

<< <i>Is it just me or do the edge photos appear much stronger than the obverse/reverse?

The edge photos look like a VG or better from here?? >>


Well, the edges dont really wear down as quickly as the obverse/reverse, now do they!!!!!!!!

BillJones

It is not unusual for the edge lettering to be MUCH sharper than the obverse and reverse of the coin. The trouble with these early large cents, as well as all early U.S. coins, was that they had no protective rim to shield the faces of the coin from wear. As a result the coins lost their sharpness more rapidly than the later issues.

The edge lettering was impressed quite deeply into the planchet, and in addition to that it is incuse. Think of how a heavily wore $2.50 or $5.00 Indian gold piece looks. Even in AG, and there are a few, the coin shows quite a bit of detail. The same applies here. In order to wear off the edge letting, the coin would need to have had extensive were. Such a coin would be nothing but a blank planchet and totally unidentifiable.