Is this trade dollar Real or Fake?..PCGS grade just in!!
DoubleEagle59
Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
Grade just in as of Sept. 29, 2010...PCGS Genuine (cleaned).
**See end of thread for new photos.
Never having owned a trade dollar, I'm obviously not the one to decide, so I'd like to know if this one looks real or fake?
**See end of thread for new photos.
Never having owned a trade dollar, I'm obviously not the one to decide, so I'd like to know if this one looks real or fake?
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
0
Comments
Ugly green though, damage?
bob
<< <i>What is the weight and diameter? I'm leaning to real.
Ugly green though, damage?
bob >>
Don't know the weight,
No 'green' color on my monitor.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I'm no expert on this series; however, the denticles on the reverse at 12 o'clock look suspicious to me. >>
Not just there... but all the denticles look suspect to me. If I remember correctly, from other threads, TDN mentioned that all the denticles should be exact and bold. All these seem "off"... with some longer and others shorter...
''
Also, I heard it mentioned that there should be no raised "lumps" on the lettering... hard to tell from the pics but there do appear to be some raised lumps on some of the letters...
I am certainly no expert on these and would be very cautious buying them raw... especially a CC...
<< <i>
<< <i>What is the weight and diameter? I'm leaning to real.
Ugly green though, damage?
bob >>
Don't know the weight,
No 'green' color on my monitor. >>
green on mine too.
what light source was used for the picture?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm no expert on this series; however, the denticles on the reverse at 12 o'clock look suspicious to me. >>
Not just there... but all the denticles look suspect to me. If I remember correctly, from other threads, TDN mentioned that all the denticles should be exact and bold. All these seem "off"... with some longer and others shorter...
''
Also, I heard it mentioned that there should be no raised "lumps" on the lettering... hard to tell from the pics but there do appear to be some raised lumps on some of the letters...
I am certainly no expert on these and would be very cautious buying them raw... especially a CC... >>
about the denticles...yes, I agree the fakes have very weak denticles, but I also read that sometimes even a real trade dollar will show weak denticles.
Have a look at this PCGS graded coin on Heritage...
Look at 12:00. Definitely weak denticles.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
keoj
My Early Large Cents
I don't know the series and I don't know how this was made, but I do think this is forgery as there are so many differences with genuine 1874 Trade Dollars. Hi TDN!!!! Remember the 1895??
Best,
Eric
<< <i>Hi,
I don't know the series and I don't know how this was made, but I do think this is forgery as there are so many differences with genuine 1874 Trade Dollars. Hi TDN!!!! Remember the 1895??
Best,
Eric >>
I would like to know the differences between this coin and other 1874's, as I'm 'in the dark' when it comes to trade dollars.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Read the post from 'keoj'. He's the biggest TD nerd on this planet, even more so than TDN. If he thinks it's real, then I'd believe him. BTW, the coin looks real to me too, albeit a bit washed out.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I am in the dark too - but look at the spatial relations of the tiny details on this item and the 1874-CC on TDN's site. Waves, the little upward bit on the underside of the "7" in "1877" where the horizontal part meets the vertical...tips of her fingers, length of neck...folds in drapery...the thing she is seated upon...the little details in the wheat...details of the eagles feathers...the whole fabric seems crazy..more than whizzed. Weird wear pattern as well with uneven and odd detail dispersion. Like I said, I know nothing about this series, but I trust my eyes and TDN's opinion (in reverse order of course!) so let's see what he says.
Best,
Eric
look at the font of the 8 or is it me?
Best,
Eric
Edited to add: The interior space is what I am speaking of - the "holes"...unless this scan was stretched horizontally they look different to me with the questioned coin having wider "holes" or negative areas..
the arrows on the reverse don't look quite the same...two seem to be touching in a second spot that don't make contact on the other two examples...the "r" in "Liberty" seems wrong....TDN???
Best,
Eric
whatever it is, I really can't see this as MS as suggested. Anyone else see this as MS?
Best,
Eric
Edited to add: Sticking with fake.
Edited again to add: I just realized the Obv. scan is distorted horizontally, which explains my observations about the fonts, but some of the other stuff is odd. Fake, real or even Reale, those surfaces appear seriously messed up in these photographs.
Now if I had a promise from the seller to get my money back if it isn't authentic, I'd find out how good the seller is.
<< <i>PVC? >>
I think that greenish hue is coming from the lighting. Looks like unbroken mint frost to me.
Weight is accurate.
Coin has been dipped a few times too many, little luster but absolutely no hairlines, no 'whizzing' and no PVC.
I'm very happy with it. I think I'll keep it.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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bob
I have a question for my understanding. If this coin was struck from the same die as the image posted earlier in this thread by Crypto79, why is the triangular space inside the "4" in the "420" on the reverse of this coin totally different from that seen on the Crypto79 example, and how can the arrows on the left, the top two, come into contact twice clearly on this example but not on the same example mentioned above posted earlier in this thread?
Thanks,
Eric
Edited to add: I still don't see this as a nice MS piece with unbroken luster as mentioned either. Do I need glasses?
Edited to add: Crypto's link to the chop marked one is bad too. (IMO)
Well, it was said earlier that these have strike weirdness and can have weakness in the same spot resulting in weak denticles, and TDN's site says this is one crazy year for these coins as far as strike and so on. But I am wondering about the other stuff I mentioned. How can the interior triangular space in the "4" of the "420" be so very different? Those top two arrows touching in two places instead of one compared to the posted example..I am still looking for the mint bloom and obvious MS quality others mentioned as well. I am just not seeing it.
Best,
Eric
Both have the period. I am speaking of the example linked by Crypto - this:
LINK to 1874-CC kindly posted by Crypto
Eric
However, the Crypto example has a period after the word "GRAINS", and the OP coin has a comma! And, the OP coin appears to have different "CC" mint mark - stronger as well - yet it has what looks like die breaks not seen on the Crypto example. Are these really the same dies? What explains these differences?
Best,
Eric
looking at the Obverse, there are three apparently raised "dots" above the "74" in the date, yet those are in totally different positions....still the same dies with all these things....how (especially the comma/period discrepancy) as seen in the Crypto example???
Best,
Eric
<< <i>FAKE! Look at the denticles over STATES. No way that it real.
Edited to add: Crypto's link to the chop marked one is bad too. (IMO) >>
Mr. Snow,
Thanks for responding - feel like I am talking to myself in here. I am reminded of the 1895 Morgan. Did you just say both those Trade Dollars are fake in your opinion?? And no one else noticed? The one apparently slabbed PCGS slab is fake? Hmm. What would Keoj and TDN say about this?
Best,
Eric
I am afraid I don't understand the symbol thingie you posted Did I say something wrong??
Best,
Eric
I don't like the dots above the date, the "dash" between "8" and "7" in the date, the dot between "R" and "I" in "PLURIBUS" on the reverse, The dot inside of "O" in "OF" and the one beow the right foot of "A" in "DOLLAR". I also don't like the lack of crispness in the marks in the fields, and I don't like the color and surfaces. In short I"d go after a refund.
I was hoping you'd have a look. This is what I am seeing too. I was going to PM you but I did not think you would remember me. You helped me many years ago with advice on Seared/Barber Proof 10C and toning etc.
Best wishes,
Eric
I was wondering - with all this discussion - are you still going to keep it? And why?
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i>I vote "fake."
I don't like the dots above the date, the "dash" between "8" and "7" in the date, the dot between "R" and "I" in "PLURIBUS" on the reverse, The dot inside of "O" in "OF" and the one beow the right foot of "A" in "DOLLAR". I also don't like the lack of crispness in the marks in the fields, and I don't like the color and surfaces. In short I"d go after a refund. >>
Let me address these points....
'Dash between 8 and 7'......there is none on the coin.
'dot between R and I in Pluribus'.....there is none on the coin.
'dot inside O of OF.........not a raised dot but a contact mark.
'one below A of Dollar.......none
'don't like crispness of fields', color and surfaces....coin in hand - fields, crispness, color and surfaces look OK to me
'dots above the date'...this point did raise a strong concern for me. There is a group of raised dots in between the 7 and 4 in the date. This however could be explained by 'rust' on the die. I searched Heritage pictures for PCGS slabbed 74-cc trade dollars and found one that has the EXACT grouping of raised dots between the two numbers. 3 in-line raised dots at a slight angle. Exactly the same on my coin. Then is my coin OK? Here's the pic of the Heritage PCGS graded coin......
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
there is a lot of minor doubling of letters (something that you find on seated half dollars) and numerous very fine die cracks between letters. Would you find these features on Fakes?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The Reverse. What about the arrows - the top two touch twice on yours but only once on others. What about the "comma"/"period" thing - what variety would that be? You say absolutely no hairlines, but I and others see them in the photo of the Reverse. I count at least 12 or so horizontal marks or striations - what are those? What are all these things that are in the photo but not on the coin? I am having a hard time understanding how this can look perfectly OK in hand from your photographs. Can you take better/larger pics? You quoted Bill - you left out the word "lack" - it lacks crispness. The contact marks, the ones "still there", seem to be smoothed or feathered a bit, and the lighter marks (apart from the hairlines mentioned) that one would expect seem to have gone missing?
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i>Hi,
The Reverse. What about the arrows - the top two touch twice on yours but only once on others. What about the "comma"/"period" thing - what variety would that be? You say absolutely no hairlines, but I and others see them in the photo of the Reverse. I count at least 12 or so horizontal marks or striations - what are those? What are all these things that are in the photo but not on the coin? I am having a hard time understanding how this can look perfectly OK in hand from your photographs. Can you take better/larger pics? You quoted Bill - you left out the word "lack" - it lacks crispness. The contact marks, the ones "still there", seem to be smoothed or feathered a bit, and the lighter marks (apart from the hairlines mentioned) that one would expect seem to have gone missing?
Best wishes,
Eric >>
I'm trying to describe this coin as best as I can and I'm trying to learn at the same time.
I certainly don't have a hidden agenda to prove this coin is Real....I just personally think it is.
Let's try this -
Let's for now wipe the slate clean and I'll ask you this question.
Here's a close-up of my coin with the area magnified between the '7' and '4' in the date.
Please note the alignment of the raised area and the number of small 'bumps'.
Now examine the same area of a genuine PCGS 1874-cc trade dollar on the Heritage site.
You'll see they are identical.
My 'new' question is this - Does this exact similarity between these two coins prove the authenticity of mine (assuming PCGS got it right with their's).
Or put another way - Can a Fake coin have this exact same raised area that was on a Genuine coin?
Picture of PCGS coin (please note same features between 7 and 4 of date.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
that'd be another way to tell...
Also, I have yet to see a fake Trade Dollar that has proper edge reeding. The 'grooves' and 'lands' should be very regular and run almost rim to rim. Do the grooves have fine linear striations in them that go from one end to the other? The fakes don't, and often have granular metal in them.
<< <i>Fakes made using transfer dies will reflect the surfaces of the "host" coin, including imperfections and damage to the surface. Thus, it is possible that a well made transfer die could carry the 3 dots above the date from the host to the copy. This coin seems to have amazingly few surface hits for a trade dollar-- do the marks on the surfaces look sharp, or rounded/smooth? They will lose definition during the transfer process.
Also, I have yet to see a fake Trade Dollar that has proper edge reeding. The 'grooves' and 'lands' should be very regular and run almost rim to rim. Do the grooves have fine linear striations in them that go from one end to the other? The fakes don't, and often have granular metal in them. >>
I feel the features on the coin are 'sharp', indicating genuine.
Good info about the reeding.
Here's a close-up photo.
Note the 4th and 5th reeding from the right-hand side of the pic shows the linear striations. Most of the grooves do show this feature.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)