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Is this trade dollar Real or Fake?..PCGS grade just in!!

DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
Grade just in as of Sept. 29, 2010...PCGS Genuine (cleaned).

**See end of thread for new photos.

Never having owned a trade dollar, I'm obviously not the one to decide, so I'd like to know if this one looks real or fake?

image

image
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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Comments

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the weight and diameter? I'm leaning to real.
    Ugly green though, damage?
    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • Bayard1908Bayard1908 Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm no expert on this series; however, the denticles on the reverse at 12 o'clock look suspicious to me.
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What is the weight and diameter? I'm leaning to real.
    Ugly green though, damage?
    bob >>



    Don't know the weight,

    No 'green' color on my monitor.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)


  • << <i>I'm no expert on this series; however, the denticles on the reverse at 12 o'clock look suspicious to me. >>




    Not just there... but all the denticles look suspect to me. If I remember correctly, from other threads, TDN mentioned that all the denticles should be exact and bold. All these seem "off"... with some longer and others shorter...
    ''
    Also, I heard it mentioned that there should be no raised "lumps" on the lettering... hard to tell from the pics but there do appear to be some raised lumps on some of the letters...

    I am certainly no expert on these and would be very cautious buying them raw... especially a CC...
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What is the weight and diameter? I'm leaning to real.
    Ugly green though, damage?
    bob >>



    Don't know the weight,

    No 'green' color on my monitor. >>




    green on mine too.


    what light source was used for the picture?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'm no expert on this series; however, the denticles on the reverse at 12 o'clock look suspicious to me. >>




    Not just there... but all the denticles look suspect to me. If I remember correctly, from other threads, TDN mentioned that all the denticles should be exact and bold. All these seem "off"... with some longer and others shorter...
    ''
    Also, I heard it mentioned that there should be no raised "lumps" on the lettering... hard to tell from the pics but there do appear to be some raised lumps on some of the letters...

    I am certainly no expert on these and would be very cautious buying them raw... especially a CC... >>



    about the denticles...yes, I agree the fakes have very weak denticles, but I also read that sometimes even a real trade dollar will show weak denticles.

    Have a look at this PCGS graded coin on Heritage...

    Look at 12:00. Definitely weak denticles.

    image
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • keojkeoj Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    Looks real to me....don't see anything incorrect for this date and MM. Type I/I, all sub-attributes are correct. Nothing to suggest that it is a cast coin, stars look good, letter shapes and sizes look good. I'd weigh it and make sure that you see it in person. My bet is real.

    keoj
  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭
    It looks as though it has no luster whatsover.
  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am leaning towards real,however it is very hard to tell from a picture unless it's a crude fake.I have seen real Trade dollars with denticles that are weak and of different shapes so that is not a sure fire way to spot a fake.
    Trade $'s
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    I don't know the series and I don't know how this was made, but I do think this is forgery as there are so many differences with genuine 1874 Trade Dollars. Hi TDN!!!! Remember the 1895?? image

    Best,
    Eric
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hi,

    I don't know the series and I don't know how this was made, but I do think this is forgery as there are so many differences with genuine 1874 Trade Dollars. Hi TDN!!!! Remember the 1895?? image

    Best,
    Eric >>



    I would like to know the differences between this coin and other 1874's, as I'm 'in the dark' when it comes to trade dollars.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    Real and MS too and very nice if not a little over dipped, Same die pair same weak denticles
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Folks,

    Read the post from 'keoj'. He's the biggest TD nerd on this planet, even more so than TDN. If he thinks it's real, then I'd believe him. BTW, the coin looks real to me too, albeit a bit washed out.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    I am in the dark too - but look at the spatial relations of the tiny details on this item and the 1874-CC on TDN's site. Waves, the little upward bit on the underside of the "7" in "1877" where the horizontal part meets the vertical...tips of her fingers, length of neck...folds in drapery...the thing she is seated upon...the little details in the wheat...details of the eagles feathers...the whole fabric seems crazy..more than whizzed. Weird wear pattern as well with uneven and odd detail dispersion. Like I said, I know nothing about this series, but I trust my eyes and TDN's opinion (in reverse order of course!) so let's see what he says.

    Best,
    Eric
  • relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even if real, those surfaces look worked to me.
    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    look at the font of the 8 or is it me?

    Best,
    Eric

    Edited to add: The interior space is what I am speaking of - the "holes"...unless this scan was stretched horizontally they look different to me with the questioned coin having wider "holes" or negative areas..
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi again,

    the arrows on the reverse don't look quite the same...two seem to be touching in a second spot that don't make contact on the other two examples...the "r" in "Liberty" seems wrong....TDN???


    Best,
    Eric
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm definitely not an expert on trade dollars (or anything else for that matter!) but my spidey sense is tingling on this one. I don't like the coin, but I can't really say why. I tend to go with what spidey says...
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Well,

    whatever it is, I really can't see this as MS as suggested. Anyone else see this as MS?

    Best,
    Eric

    Edited to add: Sticking with fake.

    Edited again to add: I just realized the Obv. scan is distorted horizontally, which explains my observations about the fonts, but some of the other stuff is odd. Fake, real or even Reale, those surfaces appear seriously messed up in these photographs.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The photography makes the surface and color questionable. The details look authentic. No final decision without better pictures, but it does look authentic. Cheers, RickO
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PVC?
    LCoopie = Les
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would not chance it based on the color and the fact that the counterfeiters are really good.
    Now if I had a promise from the seller to get my money back if it isn't authentic, I'd find out how good the seller is.
  • coindudeonebaycoindudeonebay Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    I think it's real, but I think it's been cleaned for sure. You can tell especially on the reverse.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>PVC? >>



    I think that greenish hue is coming from the lighting. Looks like unbroken mint frost to me.
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    coin is in!!

    Weight is accurate.

    Coin has been dipped a few times too many, little luster but absolutely no hairlines, no 'whizzing' and no PVC.

    I'm very happy with it. I think I'll keep it.

    image

    image
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,851 ✭✭✭
    In your photo it looks like there is light hairlines below the wheat stalks.
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks OK to me, and nicely struck, I might add.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Glad the weight is right on!

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    I have a question for my understanding. If this coin was struck from the same die as the image posted earlier in this thread by Crypto79, why is the triangular space inside the "4" in the "420" on the reverse of this coin totally different from that seen on the Crypto79 example, and how can the arrows on the left, the top two, come into contact twice clearly on this example but not on the same example mentioned above posted earlier in this thread?


    Thanks,
    Eric

    Edited to add: I still don't see this as a nice MS piece with unbroken luster as mentioned either. Do I need glasses?
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FAKE! Look at the denticles over STATES. No way that it real.

    Edited to add: Crypto's link to the chop marked one is bad too. (IMO)
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    Well, it was said earlier that these have strike weirdness and can have weakness in the same spot resulting in weak denticles, and TDN's site says this is one crazy year for these coins as far as strike and so on. But I am wondering about the other stuff I mentioned. How can the interior triangular space in the "4" of the "420" be so very different? Those top two arrows touching in two places instead of one compared to the posted example..I am still looking for the mint bloom and obvious MS quality others mentioned as well. I am just not seeing it.

    Best,
    Eric
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    that coin has a period after FINE. The coin shown by Crypto has no period- is that a clue?
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    Both have the period. I am speaking of the example linked by Crypto - this:

    LINK to 1874-CC kindly posted by Crypto

    Eric
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi again,

    However, the Crypto example has a period after the word "GRAINS", and the OP coin has a comma! And, the OP coin appears to have different "CC" mint mark - stronger as well - yet it has what looks like die breaks not seen on the Crypto example. Are these really the same dies? What explains these differences?


    Best,
    Eric
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi again,

    looking at the Obverse, there are three apparently raised "dots" above the "74" in the date, yet those are in totally different positions....still the same dies with all these things....how (especially the comma/period discrepancy) as seen in the Crypto example???

    Best,
    Eric
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780


    << <i>FAKE! Look at the denticles over STATES. No way that it real.

    Edited to add: Crypto's link to the chop marked one is bad too. (IMO) >>



    Mr. Snow,

    Thanks for responding - feel like I am talking to myself in here. I am reminded of the 1895 Morgan. Did you just say both those Trade Dollars are fake in your opinion?? And no one else noticed? The one apparently slabbed PCGS slab is fake? Hmm. What would Keoj and TDN say about this?


    Best,
    Eric
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Chop-marked coins get by PCGS because they are looking at the chop and not the coin. I could be wrong, but I think the dot after "Grains" is suspicious. If you compare Heritage archives for others of this die pair (note the position of the CC's too) I don't think you will find other certified ones.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    I am afraid I don't understand the symbol thingie you posted image Did I say something wrong??

    Best,
    Eric
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I vote "fake."

    I don't like the dots above the date, the "dash" between "8" and "7" in the date, the dot between "R" and "I" in "PLURIBUS" on the reverse, The dot inside of "O" in "OF" and the one beow the right foot of "A" in "DOLLAR". I also don't like the lack of crispness in the marks in the fields, and I don't like the color and surfaces. In short I"d go after a refund.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi Bill,

    I was hoping you'd have a look. This is what I am seeing too. I was going to PM you but I did not think you would remember me. You helped me many years ago with advice on Seared/Barber Proof 10C and toning etc.

    Best wishes,
    Eric
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hello DoubleEagle59 image

    I was wondering - with all this discussion - are you still going to keep it? And why?

    Best wishes,
    Eric
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I vote "fake."

    I don't like the dots above the date, the "dash" between "8" and "7" in the date, the dot between "R" and "I" in "PLURIBUS" on the reverse, The dot inside of "O" in "OF" and the one beow the right foot of "A" in "DOLLAR". I also don't like the lack of crispness in the marks in the fields, and I don't like the color and surfaces. In short I"d go after a refund. >>



    Let me address these points....

    'Dash between 8 and 7'......there is none on the coin.

    'dot between R and I in Pluribus'.....there is none on the coin.

    'dot inside O of OF.........not a raised dot but a contact mark.

    'one below A of Dollar.......none

    'don't like crispness of fields', color and surfaces....coin in hand - fields, crispness, color and surfaces look OK to me

    'dots above the date'...this point did raise a strong concern for me. There is a group of raised dots in between the 7 and 4 in the date. This however could be explained by 'rust' on the die. I searched Heritage pictures for PCGS slabbed 74-cc trade dollars and found one that has the EXACT grouping of raised dots between the two numbers. 3 in-line raised dots at a slight angle. Exactly the same on my coin. Then is my coin OK? Here's the pic of the Heritage PCGS graded coin......

    image
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One additional point,

    there is a lot of minor doubling of letters (something that you find on seated half dollars) and numerous very fine die cracks between letters. Would you find these features on Fakes?
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Hi,

    The Reverse. What about the arrows - the top two touch twice on yours but only once on others. What about the "comma"/"period" thing - what variety would that be? You say absolutely no hairlines, but I and others see them in the photo of the Reverse. I count at least 12 or so horizontal marks or striations - what are those? What are all these things that are in the photo but not on the coin? I am having a hard time understanding how this can look perfectly OK in hand from your photographs. Can you take better/larger pics? You quoted Bill - you left out the word "lack" - it lacks crispness. The contact marks, the ones "still there", seem to be smoothed or feathered a bit, and the lighter marks (apart from the hairlines mentioned) that one would expect seem to have gone missing?

    Best wishes,
    Eric
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hi,

    The Reverse. What about the arrows - the top two touch twice on yours but only once on others. What about the "comma"/"period" thing - what variety would that be? You say absolutely no hairlines, but I and others see them in the photo of the Reverse. I count at least 12 or so horizontal marks or striations - what are those? What are all these things that are in the photo but not on the coin? I am having a hard time understanding how this can look perfectly OK in hand from your photographs. Can you take better/larger pics? You quoted Bill - you left out the word "lack" - it lacks crispness. The contact marks, the ones "still there", seem to be smoothed or feathered a bit, and the lighter marks (apart from the hairlines mentioned) that one would expect seem to have gone missing?

    Best wishes,
    Eric >>



    I'm trying to describe this coin as best as I can and I'm trying to learn at the same time.

    I certainly don't have a hidden agenda to prove this coin is Real....I just personally think it is.

    Let's try this -

    Let's for now wipe the slate clean and I'll ask you this question.

    Here's a close-up of my coin with the area magnified between the '7' and '4' in the date.

    Please note the alignment of the raised area and the number of small 'bumps'.

    image

    Now examine the same area of a genuine PCGS 1874-cc trade dollar on the Heritage site.

    You'll see they are identical.

    My 'new' question is this - Does this exact similarity between these two coins prove the authenticity of mine (assuming PCGS got it right with their's).

    Or put another way - Can a Fake coin have this exact same raised area that was on a Genuine coin?

    Picture of PCGS coin (please note same features between 7 and 4 of date.

    image
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it too dangerous to hear it ring?

    that'd be another way to tell...

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You should post the reverse from the Heritage auction. If that matches...
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fakes made using transfer dies will reflect the surfaces of the "host" coin, including imperfections and damage to the surface. Thus, it is possible that a well made transfer die could carry the 3 dots above the date from the host to the copy. This coin seems to have amazingly few surface hits for a trade dollar-- do the marks on the surfaces look sharp, or rounded/smooth? They will lose definition during the transfer process.

    Also, I have yet to see a fake Trade Dollar that has proper edge reeding. The 'grooves' and 'lands' should be very regular and run almost rim to rim. Do the grooves have fine linear striations in them that go from one end to the other? The fakes don't, and often have granular metal in them.

  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Fakes made using transfer dies will reflect the surfaces of the "host" coin, including imperfections and damage to the surface. Thus, it is possible that a well made transfer die could carry the 3 dots above the date from the host to the copy. This coin seems to have amazingly few surface hits for a trade dollar-- do the marks on the surfaces look sharp, or rounded/smooth? They will lose definition during the transfer process.

    Also, I have yet to see a fake Trade Dollar that has proper edge reeding. The 'grooves' and 'lands' should be very regular and run almost rim to rim. Do the grooves have fine linear striations in them that go from one end to the other? The fakes don't, and often have granular metal in them. >>



    I feel the features on the coin are 'sharp', indicating genuine.

    Good info about the reeding.

    Here's a close-up photo.

    Note the 4th and 5th reeding from the right-hand side of the pic shows the linear striations. Most of the grooves do show this feature.

    image
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)

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