When making calls on the authenticity of coins, based on images, I usually go with a gut reaction and my overall impression, without focusing on little things. In doing that, I think I am probably absorbing some of those little things, without consciously being aware of them. And, despite some of the things posters have focused on which makes them think the coin is a counterfeit, my best guess is that it's genuine.
I applaud the amount of due diligence being done on this. One thing you have to realize about the series is that people are very cautious about it due to the numbers of fakes and what not. They pick apart any coin without factoring in real strike dynamics or known research with the mind set better safe then sorry. You got a very nice coin at a price I bet was well below retail which is the side effect of the rampart paranoia that plagues the series. 1000$ coin and more if it grades
The first coin I ever purchased was a Trade Dollar. I put it on this Forum for consideration. It was determined to be counterfeit and I learned a valuable lesson. To be sure, don't buy anymore Trade Dollars unless slabbed. Thanks for the lesson. This place is cool that way!
Not that this condemns the coin, but if the Chinese are making their dies from real coins then they should match up with one of the known dies (obverse "or" reverse). Having both dies match up would make a good case for it being real. Since they don't match up, I would say it is still likely a fake.
I agree. I asked questions about these Reverse differences but they were not really answered due to the number of posts. I hope DoubleEagle59 continues to suss out the coin's origins, posting what he learns along the way, as this is an interesting and educational topic and thread. I am sticking to my "fake" opinion. This coin looks messed with from the scans whatever its origins. I really wonder what it would look like in hand. DoubleEagle59, can you post large scans of both sides of the whole coin?
1- first obverse pic shows what I felt were 2 raised areas in field - in front of nose and in front of right lower leg below knee 2- shadows around device/letters on reverse - old cleaning? 3- G in GRAINS looks like different fonts 4- denticle definition and depth from rim and length near 2:30 on obverse
not overly concerned about dies as I assume there were a few of both obverse and reverse and randomly grabbed when setting up press and realize that many good counterfeits are die struck copies
but wonder how die could be better than most strikes seen?
and have come to the conclusion that on some coins, authenticity can not be determined from scans or photos especially with pixelation artifacts from computer process
if you really need to know, thats what TPGs are for
The close-up detail shows sharp detail with the high points not struck up enough, but little evidence of polishing, etching, or any other severe cleaning that would give a genuine coin the the dull lifeless appearance that it certainly has. No, the reason it is dull is because it is a product of the Canton City Mint, not that Carson City Mint.
The edge shows a different look than the typical edge seen on Trade Dollars. They usually have very "squared" edge reeding. The one in the picture is beveled by the edges. This and the lack of detail on the high points shows insufficient striking pressure. The Canton City Mint is not using enough pressure.
<< <i>The close-up detail shows sharp detail with the high points not struck up enough, but little evidence of polishing, etching, or any other severe cleaning that would give a genuine coin the the dull lifeless appearance that it certainly has. No, the reason it is dull is because it is a product of the Canton City Mint, not that Carson City Mint.
The edge shows a different look than the typical edge seen on Trade Dollars. They usually have very "squared" edge reeding. The one in the picture is beveled by the edges. This and the lack of detail on the high points shows insufficient striking pressure. The Canton City Mint is not using enough pressure. >>
While I respect your opinion I disagree with just about everything you said about the coin in question. Also I think we all need to remember that that opinions are not fact and that most people (even the dealers) are just scared of raw Trade Dollars and pick them apart even when they have to make up the facts as they go along.
Comments
<< <i>You should post the reverse from the Heritage auction. If that matches... >>
here's the Heritage reverse....
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
here's a close-up of the surfaces and sharpness of the relief.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I sincerely want to thank everyone for their opinions.
Because of your advice and questions, I have learned quite a lot about Trade dollars.
I don't know if I'll purchase any more, as one is definitely enough!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Not that this condemns the coin, but if the Chinese are making their dies from real coins then they should match up with one of the known dies (obverse "or" reverse). Having both dies match up would make a good case for it being real. Since they don't match up, I would say it is still likely a fake.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I agree. I asked questions about these Reverse differences but they were not really answered due to the number of posts. I hope DoubleEagle59 continues to suss out the coin's origins, posting what he learns along the way, as this is an interesting and educational topic and thread. I am sticking to my "fake" opinion. This coin looks messed with from the scans whatever its origins. I really wonder what it would look like in hand. DoubleEagle59, can you post large scans of both sides of the whole coin?
Best wishes,
Eric
a couple of things that had me scratching my head
1- first obverse pic shows what I felt were 2 raised areas in field - in front of nose and in front of right lower leg below knee
2- shadows around device/letters on reverse - old cleaning?
3- G in GRAINS looks like different fonts
4- denticle definition and depth from rim and length near 2:30 on obverse
not overly concerned about dies as I assume there were a few of both obverse and reverse and randomly grabbed when setting up press
and realize that many good counterfeits are die struck copies
but wonder how die could be better than most strikes seen?
and have come to the conclusion that on some coins, authenticity can not be determined from scans or photos
especially with pixelation artifacts from computer process
if you really need to know, thats what TPGs are for
The edge shows a different look than the typical edge seen on Trade Dollars. They usually have very "squared" edge reeding. The one in the picture is beveled by the edges. This and the lack of detail on the high points shows insufficient striking pressure. The Canton City Mint is not using enough pressure.
<< <i>The close-up detail shows sharp detail with the high points not struck up enough, but little evidence of polishing, etching, or any other severe cleaning that would give a genuine coin the the dull lifeless appearance that it certainly has. No, the reason it is dull is because it is a product of the Canton City Mint, not that Carson City Mint.
The edge shows a different look than the typical edge seen on Trade Dollars. They usually have very "squared" edge reeding. The one in the picture is beveled by the edges. This and the lack of detail on the high points shows insufficient striking pressure. The Canton City Mint is not using enough pressure. >>
While I respect your opinion I disagree with just about everything you said about the coin in question. Also I think we all need to remember that that opinions are not fact and that most people (even the dealers) are just scared of raw Trade Dollars and pick them apart even when they have to make up the facts as they go along.
<< <i>is this coin ever going to get submitted??
For now, it's sitting in a 2x2 flip.
No plans for immediate slabbing.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Knowing that it is questionable, you can't sell it. >>
I totally agree with you.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Can we got those large pics Obv. & Rev?
Best,
Eric
Coin has been graded by PCGS as Genuine (cleaned).
Just the result I was hoping for.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Update as of Sept. 29th, 2010....
Coin has been graded by PCGS as Genuine (cleaned).
Just the result I was hoping for. >>
Congrads!!!!!
<< <i>FAKE! Look at the denticles over STATES. No way that it real.
Edited to add: Crypto's link to the chop marked one is bad too. (IMO) >>
Maybe someone should stick to small cents?
When in doubt, I would listen to Keoj. He really knows this series, voices his opinion as such, and nailed this one as usual.
Live and learn....Mike
p.s. Congrats DoubleEagle!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Coin has been graded by PCGS as Genuine (cleaned).
Just the result I was hoping for. >>
I just got back a Genuine 92. I felt the same way, happy because that's what I was hoping for on that coin.
<< <i>what technical grade would you give it? >>
the pictures in the first post no longer work but I remember it having a shot at MS details
so the question of authenticity has been answered by PCGS to their satisfaction
(and maybe in a few years even their opinion may change)
I did take a cruise through eBay Trade Dollars as it has been a few years since I have been there
and must admit - between the pics/scans/bad lighting
I see alot of auctions I would not touch
alot of coins that are clearly authentic but damaged in some way
and a few slabs with coins in them - but difficult to tell if slabs authentic
I am not sure if it is my maturation as a collector, or fear of getting burned
but I will probably not walk across that bed of coals very often