With the alternatives being the holding of cash, or entering the shell game known as the stock market? I like my chances with the only thing of those 3 choices that has a 5,000 year track record!
<< <i>With the alternatives being the holding of cash, or entering the shell game known as the stock market? I like my chances with the only thing of those 3 choices that has a 5,000 year track record! >>
Interesting. That chart looks pretty darn similar to this one.
The next 10 years looked like this.
The above chart is of a stock that more than doubled its revenues and income over the past 10 years. It is a mega-cap stock, not a fly by night company. So even though the company grew substantially, its growth prospects were already discounted in its price. Thats what happens with all all assets, not just equities.
The above chart is of a stock that more than doubled its revenues and income over the past 10 years. It is a mega-cap stock, not a fly by night company. So even though the company grew substantially, its growth prospects were already discounted in its price. Thats what happens with all all assets, not just equities.
Gold is not a revenue earning corporation. But it is at all times a monetary substitute with a 5,000 yr. history of never going bankrupt, something no corporation or stock can claim to be...not GLD, CEF, GTU, etc. When central banks start keeping shares of mega-cap stocks in their vaults instead of gold, that will be the day that I'll switch from physical gold to mega-stocks.
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under) >>
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing.
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under) >>
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing. >>
Very naive comment ... I suppose, there is no "blood" on your gold.
Here is a more recent example. Had you purchased 2500 shares of your host's stock in 2008 @ $3.00 per share, your share price is now over $12 & paying a dividend of $1.20 per share p/a...
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under) >
Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. Where as it you bought gold you would have had a 4X plus gain. You can make any numbers sing in dance depending on time frame. Especailly when you use pre crash or crash dates for starting or ending numbers. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. >>
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<<Here is a more recent example. Had you purchased 2500 shares of your host's stock in 2008 @ $3.00 per share, your share price is now over $12 & paying a dividend of $1.20 per share p/a... >>
Imagine if you would have bought CLCT a few years prior at $30? Our hosts stock trades on very low volume and I personally would never recommend buying stocks that trade under 200,000 shares a day. This one trades on about 15K a day. If seen too many diasters on stocks like this when everybody hits the door at the same time. I'm glad it has worked out for you so far. You are correct that if you bought just about any stock at the bottom in 2008/09 you would have a nice gain going today. You are conveniently using using only bottom feeding examples and perfect timing.
Gold is money, not a stock. Apples and oranges.
JMHO.MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under) >>
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing. >>
Very naive comment ... I suppose, there is no "blood" on your gold.
Here is a more recent example. Had you purchased 2500 shares of your host's stock in 2008 @ $3.00 per share, your share price is now over $12 & paying a dividend of $1.20 per share p/a... >>
Naive - that's a first! I just stated a fact. BTW, I see no blood all BU
<< <i>Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. >>
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not. >>
Who said anything about any funds? I don't own funds outside on one current 401K (especially mutual funds) nor do I like funds nor do I invest in them. There are a lot of stocks that if bought in 1999 that have not appreciated. My market timing and research have served me well over the years. Your two examples are best case scenarios. Great for you. What are you buying today? MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Naive - that's a first! I just stated a fact. BTW, I see no blood all BU >>
Fact? Mmm, most gold is recycled and who knows for sure where it originated. You may see no blood, but some of your BU's may have some copper bleeding
The point I'm trying to convey to the "brainwashed" PM ers, is: don't put all of your eggs in one basket, do your own research and take with a "grain of salt" what the pro & anti PM crowd is preaching.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
I have always, and by always I mean the last month or so, viewed the stock market as roulette. It seems that you can study the past in order to predict the future but ultimately the future has no memory of the past. The roulette ball lands black 5 times in a row. One guy interprets this as meaning black will hit on the 6th spin because it's "on a roll". Another guy interprets this as meaning that red is "due" because the odds of hitting black six times in a row are astronomical. The third guy realizes that the ball has no memory and that each spin is a separate event.
It figures that I would develop this attitude since I'm entering the stage of my portfolio game plan where I start beefing up Tangent 33.
I've made the point before. Gold has had ten straight up years. Gold has more than quadrupled in price from the lows. Will it go up from here? Maybe. Maybe there will be ten more straight up years. Many on this forum post or link fundamental news stories. Pretty much all the fundamental news the small timer reads has already been factored into today's price, often times hours, days, weeks or months or years before the small timer reads the same news.
Investors always ask "compared to what?" Take the labels off, and would a person rather put their money into an asset class that has gone up for ten straight years and has already quadrupled in price? Or something that may not have gone up as much? Or an asset class that may be beat down? There is no right or wrong answer. A lot will depend on a person's personality, their age, their tolerance for risk, and on this forum what I call "the narrative."
Secular trends can often mean very long term bull markets, so ten up years doesn't mean it is going to go down. However, don't make the mistake of thinking today (or this year) is a low risk time to buy gold, or that gold can only go up from here. It isn't low risk, and gold can go down as well as up. The future may bring a flat market, or perhaps, even hard down for an extended time period of several years. Don't start citing fundamentals to convince yourself, because fundamentals often look best at the top of a market, and that news is usually already factored into today's price.
<< <i>The above chart is of a stock that more than doubled its revenues and income over the past 10 years. It is a mega-cap stock, not a fly by night company. So even though the company grew substantially, its growth prospects were already discounted in its price. Thats what happens with all all assets, not just equities.
Gold is not a revenue earning corporation. But it is at all times a monetary substitute with a 5,000 yr. history of never going bankrupt, something no corporation or stock can claim to be...not GLD, CEF, GTU, etc. When central banks start keeping shares of mega-cap stocks in their vaults instead of gold, that will be the day that I'll switch from physical gold to mega-stocks.
roadrunner >>
Exactly. Gold just sits there.
BTW---The chart is Wal-Mart. And it isnt Sam Waltons fault that Americans want cheap Chinese made goods. And it isnt his fault that unions priced American goods above the means of the non-unionized worker.
But if we are talking investment returns, I think you will find that EVERY asset class has the same return over one's lifetime. Gold will return the same as equities as bonds as real estate as fine art. The trick is to be in the right asset when the sun is shining, and not to be the last to leave the party.
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
Now the question is how many people did buy those shares in 1987 (and Microsoft shares a few years earlier) and then proceeded to hang on to them through thick and thin....starting with the Oct. 1987 crash? Answer: not very many. One could also have purchased any number of junior gold/silver mining shares in 1999-2001 for peanuts and seen them become major producers with massive gains. As with Walmart, not many chose correctly.
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not.
If one is considering how much above break-even they are from 1999 it's only fair to adjust for dollar depreciation. Since 2001 the dollar is down 1/3 in value.....so are those stocks from that same time period. So figure one needs to be 150% since 1999-2001 to be at break even today...or a general DOW level of 18,000.
The point I'm trying to convey to the "brainwashed" PM ers, is: don't put all of your eggs in one basket, do your own research and take with a "grain of salt" what the pro & anti PM crowd is preaching.
It's even more important to question what comes out of Financial TV, Wallstreet, FED, Treasury, BLS, BEA, etc. because what is reported today as "financial/economic" news has been a 100 yr cycle of disinformation and dumbing down. J6P is far more at risk in this area than anywhere else. Let's just call our financial markets what they really are....a casino or carney.
Pretty much all the fundamental news the small timer reads has already been factored into today's price, often times hours, days, weeks or months or years before the small timer reads the same news.
I don't think any of the markets have adequately priced in the potential of the > $1 QUAD in notional derivatives that are still marked to model. Since they first started popping up their heads with LTCM, Enron, Bear Stearns, Lehman, AIG, etc. they have only continued to surprise the markets. What is currently priced into the equation is what the "experts" think the possible risk is. Problem is, they've continued to grossly underestimate the risk of all these finanical time-bombs. This is the single most important item by a factor of 10X that is hanging over the world's financial system. Yet, it's also the single item that is probably the least accurately valued. This is the true black swan. Greece is still only part of the tip of the iceberg. If we drained away all the world's oceans, I'd think we'd all get a better idea of the significance of the topography.
But if we are talking investment returns, I think you will find that EVERY asset class has the same return over one's lifetime. Gold will return the same as equities as bonds as real estate as fine art. The trick is to be in the right asset when the sun is shining, and not to be the last to leave the party.
Well said.
Gold has no quarrels or beefs with anything or anyone. It just reflects and reacts to what the world is doing with it's currencies, no more, no less. As long as restraint and accountability with currencies remains high, gold remains low.
Im just saying that unions pushes wages higher. And since labor is the highest component of most everything manufactured, they can be blamed. We produce goods in China because the costs are too high in America. Bring down wages and suddenly America becomes much more competitive. Falling wages will also bring down the costs of everything we consume. This country NEEDS wage deflation in a bad way, unfortuntely, we wont get it. And that will be the cost to future generations.
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed?
I must confess I used to be (and am still at times tempted to be) one who looks for the "quick hit" or the big earner. But upon further review, with a fairly steady diet of a bit here and a bit there over the course of about 24 months, I find myself sitting on a pile of about $10,000 worth of silver odds n' ends/bullion.
This is pretty astonishing to me...aside from a 401k, I've been a terrible saver; always pursuing either a new/exciting creature comfort, or trying to "get rich quick," or paying the bills, etc. After jumping on the forum and trying my hand at a quick flip (gotta love those error reverse ASE's!!) or two, then missing a whole bunch, I had a change of heart and began stashing bullion and coins. The past 2 years have taught me to treat coins and bullion as a STORE of wealth (yes, I do find pleasure in looking/feeling/collecting) first, and a GAIN of wealth second. I try not to be swayed by too much rhetoric and prognostication and instead focus on the steady diet and voila! Here I am.
Going forward, for me anyway, I will try to maintain that approach. I've got at least another 20 or so years to work, so that's another 20 or so years to stack. Prices will go up, prices will go down, but my physical holdings will always go up as long as I stay the course. So in 20 years I might be sitting on $200,000 or $2,000,000 or yes, maybe even $5,000; but I will have collected something that might make my retirement MUCH better, or at some point in the future will make my progeny's financial picture much better. That's a darn sight better than any of my ancestors; and it is a lesson I intend to pass along to my children.
Just sold a couple stocks for a $2,250 profit in three and a half months. (F and PPHM) So I'll just keep ignoring road runner's advice and keep making money.
<< <i>Just sold a couple stocks for a $2,250 profit in three and a half months. (F and PPHM) So I'll just keep ignoring road runner's advice and keep making money. >>
You evil capitalist, how dare you make a profit from the devils on Wall Street
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
I agree with cohodk. Unions have become a corrupt powerful tool of the politicians. NW Indinana is still in the 20% unemployment range, but yet just last week I saw a beautiful NEW labor union building. I would guess, this building cost $250,000. (including property) No commercial buildings (new construction) are being built in this area. Tells you the unions have got some cash. Think it's time to redistribute their wealth.
Just sold a couple stocks for a $2,250 profit in three and a half months. (F and PPHM). So I'll just keep ignoring road runner's advice and keep making money.
I can't imagine what "advice" you're following but I've been bullish on the general stock market for months. However, rather than invest in drugs, autos, etc. I'd much rather stick to companies that are in commodities in general (PM's, ags, energy).
<< <i>Im just saying that unions pushes wages higher. And since labor is the highest component of most everything manufactured, they can be blamed. We produce goods in China because the costs are too high in America. Bring down wages and suddenly America becomes much more competitive. Falling wages will also bring down the costs of everything we consume. This country NEEDS wage deflation in a bad way, unfortuntely, we wont get it. And that will be the cost to future generations.
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed? >>
Do I detect a bit of envy regarding your pipefitting friend? Union corruption, a very real problem in the past for a few unions, has little to do with his hourly rate, his actual buying power has been diminishing for years. Is my Periodontist worth the $600 he gets for spending an hour in my mouth? You are worth what you get.
You are only worth what you get if you are in a free labor market. Free labor markets do not exist where unions interfere with the laws of labor supply and demand. Like bankers, union leaders have let greed become their motivation. Current economic conditions, brought on by greedy bankers and greedy unions, will eventually bring down those same bankers and union leaders. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of us down with them.
Union leaders are nothing more than wanna-be politicians. And as far as I can tell, all politicians are crooks.
<<Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!!>. Pipefitting has nothing to do with screwing pipes together. For the record I'm a non-union guy that grew up in an union family and have several fitters in the family. They are all math whizzes which is actually needed in this trade. One is also a lawyer and the other an engineer in addition to being journeymen fitters. The test to become a pipefitter is not easy IMO ( I've taken it) before I switched my career path. It can also be very dangerous if you are fitting on high rise projects.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You are only worth what you get if you are in a free labor market. Free labor markets do not exist where unions interfere with the laws of labor supply and demand. Like bankers, union leaders have let greed become their motivation. Current economic conditions, brought on by greedy bankers and greedy unions, will eventually bring down those same bankers and union leaders. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of us down with them.
Union leaders are nothing more than wanna-be politicians. And as far as I can tell, all politicians are crooks. >>
Do I detect an anti-union sentiment? So you would like a "free labor market." like maybe, oh say China, or Mexico? Maybe the Phillipines? JFK once said, in response to a question about a union getting more money, "a rising tide lifts all the boats." Organized labor, which like any group has it's faults. is responsible for the high standard of living most Americans enjoy today, if you are a working man or woman that means you, whether you are in a union or not. I don't advocate "featherbedding," or , "I don't touch that," past practices that unions were guilty of. In my business I saw this gradually eliminated over a 30 year career until if a person was qualified, they did the job. The union realized the changing nature of the business and adapted to the new environment. I hear that unions are "antiquated," a relic of a bygone era, I don't believe it for a second, the working person is always going to need someone to look out for their interests.
<< <i>Im just saying that unions pushes wages higher. And since labor is the highest component of most everything manufactured, they can be blamed. We produce goods in China because the costs are too high in America. Bring down wages and suddenly America becomes much more competitive. Falling wages will also bring down the costs of everything we consume. This country NEEDS wage deflation in a bad way, unfortuntely, we wont get it. And that will be the cost to future generations.
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed? >>
I dont know about the pipefitters, but im a member of Local 2 (Chicago firefighter's union) and although we get a nice pension benefit, a full 9.125% comes right off the tops of our paychecks for that benefit. If the rest of America's workers all put 9% of their gross towards retirement from day 1 on the job, I suspect they would have a comfortable retirement at age 55 as well!
Second thoughts? Yes. I should have converted more of my idle cash over the last year into gold when it was still around $950 an ounce. If a VAT tax becomes a reality in the US I'll regret not buying more when I could have sans tax.
Stop thinking you need to take 2-4 family vacations per year (I have been on 1 since 2007). Stop spending tens of thousands "updating" your kitchens and baths because John across the street did and it looks oh so nice! Stop buying designer jeans, dresses, handbags and shoes with your charge cards. And start setting aside 9% of your gross pay starting on your very 1st day of gainful employment towards retirement.
Then, and only then, come back and complain about my pension!
Dont point the finger at me because you are not responsible with your money. You want your lavish vacations, your new kitchens, and designer clothes. But then you get upset when a blue collar worker sticks his nose to a grindstone for 30 years and gets a deserved and EARNED pension that he paid for all those years? When you point a finger at someone, you will notice there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
<< <i>I guess we all agree, that change is over due ..... "but not in my yard." >>
It's a fact, you can bet none of those Tea Party people are sending their Social Security checks back, let someone talk about cutting those and watch them change their tune.
I like the idea of holding hard assets and stocks in that arena... One can make a good deal of money in stocks if one knows how to read financial statements.
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
There are many ways to save or invest and it's clear that each of us has an emotional affinity to some assets over others, but this is the United States of America, a capatalist country, who's wealth has been built by innovation and business, not by hording precious metals. Yes, unfortunately there is corruption and human error in equity and bond markets, there has always been to a lesser or greater degree, certainly gold has it's darkside. But business and corporations create jobs and technologies, drugs, other goods as well as services and are the engine of our economic system. Investing in Gold does very little of this. I have no problem with owning precious metals as part of diversified portfolio, it just makes sense. and I can understand a desire by some to overweight precious metals, but I always have a hard time reconciling a precious metals enthusiasts apparent huge disdain for capital markets, when they clearly have been responsible for making us one of the wealthiest nations on earth.
What's this "vacation" thing I keep hearing about?
I have never bought designer jeans, dresses, handbags and/or shoes with my charge card.
The only time I had a kitchen re-done was in 1986, and as I recall it cost about $8,000. By the way, it needed it.
Now, let's talk about unions, if you insist about discussing excesses. The Automakers who just got bailed out by Uncle Sam at GM & Chrysler had no business getting our tax money. They had great-paying jobs for years with great benefits and had every opportunity to "put 9% away off the top" for years and years.
If their pensions were underfunded and the union bosses didn't take care of the pension funds, that is all the more reason that they never should have been awarded such lavish pensions in the first place. Furthermore, if the unions felt so good about negotiating terms that ran those companies out of business, the companies should be OUT of business and nobody should benefit - not the unions, not the retirees, not the employees, and not the city that loses the tax base. It's a hard world for everyone else out there, too.
Municipalities are no different. If the city can't afford services, there should be no services. Maybe the non-workers would have to make some readjustments in THEIR lifestyles. I have respect for firefighters and police, but I don't have respect for non-workers who won't lift a finger to contribute. You have two types of disability. One type is those who want to work, and the other type is those who don't want to work. The system is constantly abused, and those who abuse it will never have my sympathy.
I have no pension, no health insurance and I have to depend on my own savings. I should never have to pay for theirs when I don't have any of the above. Nobody has sufficiently explained why unions should be such sacred cows. They are as corrupt as Wall Street, even more so.
There should be a social safety net, but not a cocoon for life. There are always inequities, and when you penalize the middle class working folks for being industrious and working their rears off, you destroy the whole foundation that supports those unions and the social safety net as well.
In the absence of smart government, buy precious metals.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
BTW--I was on vacation earlier in the month---my bad, sorry. If you call sleeping in a tent in 20 degree temps on the side of a mountain a vacation.
But, I did need to buy a few items for my trip. My backpack was made in USA, as was a plastic water bottle, bullets, hat and other camping stuff. Gun was made in Japan--primary American made gun was having a new trigger installed and I didnt get back from gunsmith in time, but boat and plane to get me to the island were made in USA.
Quality is made here, junk elsewhere. You get what you pay for.
It's easy to point at some of the excesses GRANTED to the UAW by the incompetent management at GM and blame everything on the union. At one point in the 70's GM's advertising budget was 70 % of the amount paid to the UAW members, GM had far more levels of managment than any other industry. How about the basic notion of making different brands of cars that were just as likely to steal customers from it's other models as from Ford or a foreign maker? Utter stupidity. At what point would you tell your employer that he is paying you "too much," very few people are going to refuse a raise because "I think that down the road this could cause a problem here." Lets get real, most of us are going to get all we can, IF we can, that is the only difference with a union worker, he has more clout.
<Quality is made here, junk elsewhere> Ha! That is all.............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I regard my PM holdings (gold and silver) as strictly an insurance policy. Whether they go up, down, or sideways on a short-term basis means nothing to me. Actually, it wouldn't bother me if the price of PMs collapsed (not likely) because it would mean that my pension and other "regular" investments are doing fine. On the other hand, if the SHTF and PMs skyrocket, I can sleep at night.
It pains me to read some of this back and forth...
... as far as the shoulda coulda woulda mighta oughta...
... I have second thoughts about holding GLD since conception (getting out soon)...
... I question my choice about NOT buying plat in '08 (bought gold/silver instead)...
... I wonder why I bought in stages since 03' (I waited too long to phase out of other investments)...
... I ask myself if I'll really know when/if to trade out of pm's for farm land (its still expensive on Maui, and its getting harder to keep land zoned as 'agriculture')...
... I wish my extended family would by pm's so I don't have to buy it for them...
I thank the good lord above for the humble life I lead/led... peace.
<I thank the good lord above for the humble life I lead/led... peace.> I'm not the most religious guy in this thread but I love the spirit of this sentence. Well stated............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"You have two types of disability. One type is those who want to work, and the other type is those who don't want to work. The system is constantly abused, and those who abuse it will never have my sympathy."
Right on....I couldnt agree with this more!
"..... if the unions felt so good about negotiating terms that ran those companies out of business, the companies should be OUT of business and nobody should benefit - not the unions, not the retirees, not the employees, and not the city that loses the tax base."
This is pure BS. To try to pin GM's failure as a company on the labor union is a serious cop out. GM was building 14 mpg monsters while the rest of the world wanted more efficient vehicles. They failed primarily because of poor decisions and a bloated advertising budget (3 BILLION this year alone). Have you ever seen a car commercial and wanted to go out and buy that car? I, and probably most of us, see a car on the street and say "thats cool, im gonna check that out".
Job security should come from knowing that you are invaluable as an employee. It should not come from third party "protection" backed by threats. When an employee is "protected" he/she is more likely to care less about being a valuable employee. This results in a poorer performing employee and poorer quality control on the end product or service. It becomes a downhill spiral for the company as a whole. GM is a PERFECT example as are most Federal agenices who, by the way, have some very powerful unions.
<< <i>Job security should come from knowing that you are invaluable as an employee. It should not come from third party "protection" backed by threats. When an employee is "protected" he/she is more likely to care less about being a valuable employee. This results in a poorer performing employee and poorer quality control on the end product or service. It becomes a downhill spiral for the company as a whole. GM is a PERFECT example. >>
I agree in principle to this statement. When you have greedy stock holders and 10 bazillion slave laborers to compete with.
derryb
Posts: 36,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
<< <i>With the alternatives being the holding of cash, or entering the shell game known as the stock market? I like my chances with the only thing of those 3 choices that has a 5,000 year track record!
don't forget real estate!
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>A refreshing reminder of the the long term picture:
Scaredy Cats >>
Interesting. That chart looks pretty darn similar to this one.
The next 10 years looked like this.
The above chart is of a stock that more than doubled its revenues and income over the past 10 years. It is a mega-cap stock, not a fly by night company. So even though the company grew substantially, its growth prospects were already discounted in its price. Thats what happens with all all assets, not just equities.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months.
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
I know LA Money will agree with you
I have my shares of stock, Land, PM's & coins. Trying to obtain a equal balance of each.
I do have more faith in last 3 though.
Gold is not a revenue earning corporation. But it is at all times a monetary substitute with a 5,000 yr. history of never going bankrupt, something no corporation or stock can claim to be...not GLD, CEF, GTU, etc. When central banks start keeping shares of mega-cap stocks in their vaults instead of gold, that will be the day that I'll switch from physical gold to mega-stocks.
roadrunner
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
<< <i>
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing.
Very naive comment ... I suppose, there is no "blood" on your gold.
Here is a more recent example. Had you purchased 2500 shares of your host's stock in 2008 @ $3.00 per share, your share price is now over $12 & paying a dividend of $1.20 per share p/a...
Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. Where as it you bought gold you would have had a 4X plus gain. You can make any numbers sing in dance depending on time frame. Especailly when you use pre crash or crash dates for starting or ending numbers. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. >>
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not.
Imagine if you would have bought CLCT a few years prior at $30? Our hosts stock trades on very low volume and I personally would never recommend buying stocks that trade under 200,000 shares a day. This one trades on about 15K a day. If seen too many diasters on stocks like this when everybody hits the door at the same time. I'm glad it has worked out for you so far. You are correct that if you bought just about any stock at the bottom in 2008/09 you would have a nice gain going today. You are conveniently using using only bottom feeding examples and perfect timing.
Gold is money, not a stock. Apples and oranges.
JMHO.MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I still like my gold. I'm not a gold bug that thinks gold will hit $2K this year, but I still think gold is a good value at $1150.
I look for $1300 gold within 18 months. >>
Just think, had you purchased, instead of PM's, .. WMT (Wal Mart Stores) in 1987.. 1000 shares @ $3.01.....with stock splits over the years, you would now own over 8000 shares @ $54 per share, paying a dividend of little over $1.20 p/a .. ( My kids are gonna love the taxes on that baby after I'm 6' under)
Wow all that gain on selling cheap China crap. All the while putting fellow Americans out of work.
Sam Walton was all about buying American. Notice the profits after his passing.
Very naive comment ... I suppose, there is no "blood" on your gold.
Here is a more recent example. Had you purchased 2500 shares of your host's stock in 2008 @ $3.00 per share, your share price is now over $12 & paying a dividend of $1.20 per share p/a... >>
Naive -
<< <i>
<< <i>Just imagine if you would have bought just about any stock in 1999. You may still very well be under water now. >>
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not. >>
Who said anything about any funds? I don't own funds outside on one current 401K (especially mutual funds) nor do I like funds nor do I invest in them. There are a lot of stocks that if bought in 1999 that have not appreciated. My market timing and research have served me well over the years. Your two examples are best case scenarios. Great for you. What are you buying today? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Naive - that's a first! I just stated a fact. BTW, I see no blood all BU >>
Fact? Mmm, most gold is recycled and who knows for sure where it originated.
You may see no blood, but some of your BU's may have some copper bleeding
The point I'm trying to convey to the "brainwashed" PM ers, is: don't put all of your eggs in one basket, do your own research and take with a "grain of salt" what the pro & anti PM crowd is preaching.
It figures that I would develop this attitude since I'm entering the stage of my portfolio game plan where I start beefing up Tangent 33.
Investors always ask "compared to what?" Take the labels off, and would a person rather put their money into an asset class that has gone up for ten straight years and has already quadrupled in price? Or something that may not have gone up as much? Or an asset class that may be beat down? There is no right or wrong answer. A lot will depend on a person's personality, their age, their tolerance for risk, and on this forum what I call "the narrative."
Secular trends can often mean very long term bull markets, so ten up years doesn't mean it is going to go down. However, don't make the mistake of thinking today (or this year) is a low risk time to buy gold, or that gold can only go up from here. It isn't low risk, and gold can go down as well as up. The future may bring a flat market, or perhaps, even hard down for an extended time period of several years. Don't start citing fundamentals to convince yourself, because fundamentals often look best at the top of a market, and that news is usually already factored into today's price.
<< <i>The above chart is of a stock that more than doubled its revenues and income over the past 10 years. It is a mega-cap stock, not a fly by night company. So even though the company grew substantially, its growth prospects were already discounted in its price. Thats what happens with all all assets, not just equities.
Gold is not a revenue earning corporation. But it is at all times a monetary substitute with a 5,000 yr. history of never going bankrupt, something no corporation or stock can claim to be...not GLD, CEF, GTU, etc. When central banks start keeping shares of mega-cap stocks in their vaults instead of gold, that will be the day that I'll switch from physical gold to mega-stocks.
roadrunner >>
Exactly. Gold just sits there.
BTW---The chart is Wal-Mart. And it isnt Sam Waltons fault that Americans want cheap Chinese made goods. And it isnt his fault that unions priced American goods above the means of the non-unionized worker.
But if we are talking investment returns, I think you will find that EVERY asset class has the same return over one's lifetime. Gold will return the same as equities as bonds as real estate as fine art. The trick is to be in the right asset when the sun is shining, and not to be the last to leave the party.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Now the question is how many people did buy those shares in 1987 (and Microsoft shares a few years earlier) and then proceeded to hang on to them through thick and thin....starting with the Oct. 1987 crash? Answer: not very many. One could also have purchased any number of junior gold/silver mining shares in 1999-2001 for peanuts and seen them become major producers with massive gains. As with Walmart, not many chose correctly.
You're in the wrong fund, if your scenario is like your statement. All of my mutual funds are above the pre 1999 periods. Yes, my funds still need another 5% to recover from the most recent meltdown, but that comes with the territory. Just like PM's, timing and research will make you a winner more often than not.
If one is considering how much above break-even they are from 1999 it's only fair to adjust for dollar depreciation. Since 2001 the dollar is down 1/3 in value.....so are those stocks from that same time period. So figure one needs to be 150% since 1999-2001 to be at break even today...or a general DOW level of 18,000.
The point I'm trying to convey to the "brainwashed" PM ers, is: don't put all of your eggs in one basket, do your own research and take with a "grain of salt" what the pro & anti PM crowd is preaching.
It's even more important to question what comes out of Financial TV, Wallstreet, FED, Treasury, BLS, BEA, etc. because what is reported today as "financial/economic" news has been a 100 yr cycle of disinformation and dumbing down. J6P is far more at risk in this area than anywhere else. Let's just call our financial markets what they really are....a casino or carney.
Pretty much all the fundamental news the small timer reads has already been factored into today's price, often times hours, days, weeks or months or years before the small timer reads the same news.
I don't think any of the markets have adequately priced in the potential of the > $1 QUAD in notional derivatives that are still marked to model. Since they first started popping up their heads with LTCM, Enron, Bear Stearns, Lehman, AIG, etc. they have only continued to surprise the markets. What is currently priced into the equation is what the "experts" think the possible risk is. Problem is, they've continued to grossly underestimate the risk of all these finanical time-bombs. This is the single most important item by a factor of 10X that is hanging over the world's financial system. Yet, it's also the single item that is probably the least accurately valued. This is the true black swan. Greece is still only part of the tip of the iceberg. If we drained away all the world's oceans, I'd think we'd all get a better idea of the significance of the topography.
But if we are talking investment returns, I think you will find that EVERY asset class has the same return over one's lifetime. Gold will return the same as equities as bonds as real estate as fine art. The trick is to be in the right asset when the sun is shining, and not to be the last to leave the party.
Well said.
Gold has no quarrels or beefs with anything or anyone. It just reflects and reacts to what the world is doing with it's currencies, no more, no less. As long as restraint and accountability with currencies remains high, gold remains low.
roadrunner
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I have several niece's & nephews fixing to enter job market. This is what drives my anger at what they are facing.
I must confess I used to be (and am still at times tempted to be) one who looks for the "quick hit" or the big earner. But upon further review, with a fairly steady diet of a bit here and a bit there over the course of about 24 months, I find myself sitting on a pile of about $10,000 worth of silver odds n' ends/bullion.
This is pretty astonishing to me...aside from a 401k, I've been a terrible saver; always pursuing either a new/exciting creature comfort, or trying to "get rich quick," or paying the bills, etc. After jumping on the forum and trying my hand at a quick flip (gotta love those error reverse ASE's!!) or two, then missing a whole bunch, I had a change of heart and began stashing bullion and coins. The past 2 years have taught me to treat coins and bullion as a STORE of wealth (yes, I do find pleasure in looking/feeling/collecting) first, and a GAIN of wealth second. I try not to be swayed by too much rhetoric and prognostication and instead focus on the steady diet and voila! Here I am.
Going forward, for me anyway, I will try to maintain that approach. I've got at least another 20 or so years to work, so that's another 20 or so years to stack. Prices will go up, prices will go down, but my physical holdings will always go up as long as I stay the course. So in 20 years I might be sitting on $200,000 or $2,000,000 or yes, maybe even $5,000; but I will have collected something that might make my retirement MUCH better, or at some point in the future will make my progeny's financial picture much better. That's a darn sight better than any of my ancestors; and it is a lesson I intend to pass along to my children.
FWIW
So I'll just keep ignoring road runner's advice and keep making money.
<< <i>Just sold a couple stocks for a $2,250 profit in three and a half months. (F and PPHM)
So I'll just keep ignoring road runner's advice and keep making money. >>
You evil capitalist, how dare you make a profit from the devils on Wall Street
B&M today in Texas was fun and worthwhile.
I can't imagine what "advice" you're following but I've been bullish on the general stock market for months. However, rather than invest in drugs, autos, etc. I'd much rather stick to companies that are in commodities in general (PM's, ags, energy).
roadrunner
<< <i>Im just saying that unions pushes wages higher. And since labor is the highest component of most everything manufactured, they can be blamed. We produce goods in China because the costs are too high in America. Bring down wages and suddenly America becomes much more competitive. Falling wages will also bring down the costs of everything we consume. This country NEEDS wage deflation in a bad way, unfortuntely, we wont get it. And that will be the cost to future generations.
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed? >>
Do I detect a bit of envy regarding your pipefitting friend? Union corruption, a very real problem in the past for a few unions, has little to do with his hourly rate, his actual buying power has been diminishing for years. Is my Periodontist worth the $600 he gets for spending an hour in my mouth? You are worth what you get.
<< <i>You are worth what you get. >>
You are only worth what you get if you are in a free labor market. Free labor markets do not exist where unions interfere with the laws of labor supply and demand. Like bankers, union leaders have let greed become their motivation. Current economic conditions, brought on by greedy bankers and greedy unions, will eventually bring down those same bankers and union leaders. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of us down with them.
Union leaders are nothing more than wanna-be politicians. And as far as I can tell, all politicians are crooks.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Pipefitting has nothing to do with screwing pipes together. For the record I'm a non-union guy that grew up in an union family and have several fitters in the family. They are all math whizzes which is actually needed in this trade. One is also a lawyer and the other an engineer in addition to being journeymen fitters. The test to become a pipefitter is not easy IMO ( I've taken it) before I switched my career path. It can also be very dangerous if you are fitting on high rise projects.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>You are worth what you get. >>
You are only worth what you get if you are in a free labor market. Free labor markets do not exist where unions interfere with the laws of labor supply and demand. Like bankers, union leaders have let greed become their motivation. Current economic conditions, brought on by greedy bankers and greedy unions, will eventually bring down those same bankers and union leaders. Unfortunately, it will take a lot of us down with them.
Union leaders are nothing more than wanna-be politicians. And as far as I can tell, all politicians are crooks. >>
Do I detect an anti-union sentiment?
JFK once said, in response to a question about a union getting more money, "a rising tide lifts all the boats." Organized labor, which like any group has it's faults. is responsible for the high standard of living most Americans enjoy today, if you are a working man or woman that means you, whether you are in a union or not. I don't advocate "featherbedding," or , "I don't touch that," past practices that unions were guilty of. In my business I saw this gradually eliminated over a 30 year career until if a person was qualified, they did the job. The union realized the changing nature of the business and adapted to the new environment. I hear that unions are "antiquated," a relic of a bygone era, I don't believe it for a second, the working person is always going to need someone to look out for their interests.
<< <i>Im just saying that unions pushes wages higher. And since labor is the highest component of most everything manufactured, they can be blamed. We produce goods in China because the costs are too high in America. Bring down wages and suddenly America becomes much more competitive. Falling wages will also bring down the costs of everything we consume. This country NEEDS wage deflation in a bad way, unfortuntely, we wont get it. And that will be the cost to future generations.
My hunting partner is in the steamfitters union. He makes $30 an hour. His union puts away $10,000 a year for him. Then he gets $110 a month for every year he is with the union for retirement. Then add in his healthcare benefits. He probably pushing $50 per hour with benefits.
After 25 years he will get $2750 a month and will have amassed $250,000 in savings---probably pushing 600k with investment return. And for this he never saved a penny from his paycheck. Add in his social security--which his union will supplement from age 55 to 62 and he will enjoy quite a nice retirement. Imagine retiring at 55. I cant.
Is someone screwing pipe together really worth that much!!! Unions were very necessary when first established, but with their power came corruption, and that has hurt us all.
Im not defending Wall Street as I believe they are also culpable, but they have suffered over time. Lehman, Bear Stearns, Drexel Burhnam. They have failed. Have any unions failed? >>
I dont know about the pipefitters, but im a member of Local 2 (Chicago firefighter's union) and although we get a nice pension benefit, a full 9.125% comes right off the tops of our paychecks for that benefit. If the rest of America's workers all put 9% of their gross towards retirement from day 1 on the job, I suspect they would have a comfortable retirement at age 55 as well!
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Stop thinking you need to take 2-4 family vacations per year (I have been on 1 since 2007).
Stop spending tens of thousands "updating" your kitchens and baths because John across the street did and it looks oh so nice!
Stop buying designer jeans, dresses, handbags and shoes with your charge cards.
And start setting aside 9% of your gross pay starting on your very 1st day of gainful employment towards retirement.
Then, and only then, come back and complain about my pension!
Dont point the finger at me because you are not responsible with your money. You want your lavish vacations, your new kitchens, and designer clothes. But then you get upset when a blue collar worker sticks his nose to a grindstone for 30 years and gets a deserved and EARNED pension that he paid for all those years? When you point a finger at someone, you will notice there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
<< <i>I guess we all agree, that change is over due ..... "but not in my yard."
It's a fact, you can bet none of those Tea Party people are sending their Social Security checks back, let someone talk about cutting those and watch them change their tune.
One can make a good deal of money in stocks if one knows how to read financial statements.
Made in the USA
I have never bought designer jeans, dresses, handbags and/or shoes with my charge card.
The only time I had a kitchen re-done was in 1986, and as I recall it cost about $8,000. By the way, it needed it.
Now, let's talk about unions, if you insist about discussing excesses. The Automakers who just got bailed out by Uncle Sam at GM & Chrysler had no business getting our tax money. They had great-paying jobs for years with great benefits and had every opportunity to "put 9% away off the top" for years and years.
If their pensions were underfunded and the union bosses didn't take care of the pension funds, that is all the more reason that they never should have been awarded such lavish pensions in the first place. Furthermore, if the unions felt so good about negotiating terms that ran those companies out of business, the companies should be OUT of business and nobody should benefit - not the unions, not the retirees, not the employees, and not the city that loses the tax base. It's a hard world for everyone else out there, too.
Municipalities are no different. If the city can't afford services, there should be no services. Maybe the non-workers would have to make some readjustments in THEIR lifestyles. I have respect for firefighters and police, but I don't have respect for non-workers who won't lift a finger to contribute. You have two types of disability. One type is those who want to work, and the other type is those who don't want to work. The system is constantly abused, and those who abuse it will never have my sympathy.
I have no pension, no health insurance and I have to depend on my own savings. I should never have to pay for theirs when I don't have any of the above. Nobody has sufficiently explained why unions should be such sacred cows. They are as corrupt as Wall Street, even more so.
There should be a social safety net, but not a cocoon for life. There are always inequities, and when you penalize the middle class working folks for being industrious and working their rears off, you destroy the whole foundation that supports those unions and the social safety net as well.
In the absence of smart government, buy precious metals.
I knew it would happen.
BTW--I was on vacation earlier in the month---my bad, sorry.
But, I did need to buy a few items for my trip. My backpack was made in USA, as was a plastic water bottle, bullets, hat and other camping stuff. Gun was made in Japan--primary American made gun was having a new trigger installed and I didnt get back from gunsmith in time, but boat and plane to get me to the island were made in USA.
Quality is made here, junk elsewhere. You get what you pay for.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
very few people are going to refuse a raise because "I think that down the road this could cause a problem here." Lets get real, most of us are going to get all we can, IF we can, that is the only difference with a union worker, he has more clout.
Ha! That is all.............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Quality is made here, junk elsewhere. You get what you pay for. >>
Not sure if that statement still holds "any water." That may have been true 25-30 years ago, but in my book, not any more.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
... as far as the shoulda coulda woulda mighta oughta...
... I have second thoughts about holding GLD since conception (getting out soon)...
... I question my choice about NOT buying plat in '08 (bought gold/silver instead)...
... I wonder why I bought in stages since 03' (I waited too long to phase out of other investments)...
... I ask myself if I'll really know when/if to trade out of pm's for farm land (its still expensive on Maui, and its getting harder to keep land zoned as 'agriculture')...
... I wish my extended family would by pm's so I don't have to buy it for them...
I thank the good lord above for the humble life I lead/led... peace.
I'm not the most religious guy in this thread but I love the spirit of this sentence. Well stated............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Right on....I couldnt agree with this more!
"..... if the unions felt so good about negotiating terms that ran those companies out of business, the companies should be OUT of business and nobody should benefit - not the unions, not the retirees, not the employees, and not the city that loses the tax base."
This is pure BS. To try to pin GM's failure as a company on the labor union is a serious cop out. GM was building 14 mpg monsters while the rest of the world wanted more efficient vehicles. They failed primarily because of poor decisions and a bloated advertising budget (3 BILLION this year alone). Have you ever seen a car commercial and wanted to go out and buy that car? I, and probably most of us, see a car on the street and say "thats cool, im gonna check that out".
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>Job security should come from knowing that you are invaluable as an employee. It should not come from third party "protection" backed by threats. When an employee is "protected" he/she is more likely to care less about being a valuable employee. This results in a poorer performing employee and poorer quality control on the end product or service. It becomes a downhill spiral for the company as a whole. GM is a PERFECT example. >>
I agree in principle to this statement. When you have greedy stock holders and 10 bazillion slave laborers to compete with.
Profit at max amount is reality.