Is gold and silver really all that important in a monetary collapse?

partagas · December 16, 2009 11:17PM

Lets look back to a recent disaster, Katrina. After a few days, the only things highly sought after were the basic needs of humans. Sure we saw pictures of looters carrying tvs. But as the tragedy wore on, it came down to food, water, etc. I don't see gold or silver as one of those etc.

Lets say I have a stockpile of non-perishable food and water, and ammo, and some guns and we go all out anarchy in the US. The dollars finished, supermarkets are closed, its everyman for himself. Its going to take pounds of your metal to buy my basics needs, and thats only if I think things will get better. Otherwise, I have no use for gold.

Now don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in inflation and metals as an excellent hedge for the next year or two. But don't buy the hold gold for the anarchy theories.

Let me hear your theories, please.

braddick · December 16, 2009 11:35PM

<< Lets look back to a recent disaster, Katrina. After a few days, the only things highly sought after were the basic needs of humans. Sure we saw pictures of looters carrying tvs. But as the tragedy wore on, it came down to food, water, etc. I don't see gold or silver as one of those etc.

Lets say I have a stockpile of non-perishable food and water, and ammo, and some guns and we go all out anarchy in the US. The dollars finished, supermarkets are closed, its everyman for himself. Its going to take pounds of your metal to buy my basics needs, and thats only if I think things will get better. Otherwise, I have no use for gold.

Now don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in inflation and metals as an excellent hedge for the next year or two. But don't buy the hold gold for the anarchy theories.

Let me hear your theories, please. >>

Yours is the worse case scenario. Anything less than that, yet still tragic in many ways- gold and silver will also be among the items that will not just get you by, will provide some level of comfort.
You state, "the U.S. dollar is finished...". In what I think is more realistic is, "the U.S. dollar is worth pennies on the dollar..." then buying a gas powered generator, for example, may cost you $$5,000.00 or, a couple of ounces of gold (gold that was purchased at 1K an ounce) as that gold can still be traded for FRNs.

Again, if the sh!t totally hits the fan even precious metals won't matter but I don't see us really ever getting to that desperate point- but rather a few ratchets above that- still bad, mind you, just not "last days" bad.

halfhunter · December 17, 2009 5:01AM

Maybe this will help answer the question . . .

GOLD

HH

Justacommeman · December 17, 2009 5:23AM

You will want gold during the impending monetary collapse. You will need other things as well. Greece's "collapse" today ironically trigged the buying of dollars as a "safe haven" play and the unwinding of the "carry trade". The irony is that the State of California the worlds 7th largest economy has a lower credit rating then a few third world countries and could default at anytime. There were a lot of traders all on one side of the boat on the anti dollar trade. This is what usually happens. Long term I hate the dollar. JMHO. MJ

jmski52 · December 17, 2009 5:24AM

Is gold and silver really all that important in a monetary collapse?

Yes.

TomB · December 17, 2009 6:41AM

I think the Katrina example is slightly out of context in that it happened so fast and that much of the infrastructure and basic materials were immediately destroyed or rendered useless. A monetary collapse does not have to unfold like a natural disaster compounded by poor planning and an inadequate response.

rgCoinGuy · December 17, 2009 6:48AM

PM's will store your wealth for you for when we come out the other side.

Some sort of system will replace the one that blew up eventually, and the quest for the gold will begin anew.

Having a survival stockpile in this worst case scenario would be good, but then what if, China doesn't go under, takes over and the Yuan is the new world reserve currency? Your stockpile of guns and old food and water, won't probably get you very many yuans.

cinman14 · December 17, 2009 7:04AM

10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need...

rgCoinGuy · December 17, 2009 7:37AM

<< 10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need...

>>

As long as you remember the combination to your gun safe.

cinman14 · December 17, 2009 7:46AM

<< As long as you remember the combination to your gun safe.

>>

The Ammo safe is the only one I don't lock...

lathmach · December 17, 2009 7:57AM

Well Todd...........
If things get really, really bad, you just email me a list of your Seated Quarters, and I'll dig through my pantry and get you a list of my edibles.
We'll do some swapping. Hell, my folks had 17 kids. I'm used to starving.
I ain't got used to having enough Seated Quarters though.

Ray

fishcooker · December 17, 2009 8:21AM

Perhaps history has some use as a reference guide for your scenario. I submit that you are correct that my gold won't buy your food when there is little, or none. But, on the other hand, history is replete with examples of gold enabling people leave a disaster behind and move to where one is not.

Weiss · December 17, 2009 10:30AM

Was gold worthless during Katrina?

thatboyaintright · December 17, 2009 10:45AM

Most people just don't get it... You won't take gold and silver to the grocery store, the gun shop, the gas station etc if the economy collapses and the dollar tanks. Your gold and silver just trade for more dollars. So that in the event of a nation wide collapse ( not a local collapse like Katrina) you would just trade your gold for many, many many more dollars than before the crisis. Its a preserver of wealth more than a short term survival tool.

calleocho · December 17, 2009 12:15PM

I have a feeling that in such scenario gold would still be worth more than your 401K, stock portfolio, treasuries, debit cards, and even your wet cash.

You see without electricity none of these things would be accesible.

In such a scenario where the US is in such chaos, all you would want to do is leave to someplace where things are still OK ...so keep you guns, your food, and all that stuff....I will use my gold to buy me a way out.

roadrunner · December 17, 2009 1:01PM

During the regional and local currency collapses of the 19th century what always came through as a store of value? As the currencies or debauched metal coin of many nations failed over the past 2000 years what was the next thing to re-establish a monetary system?

10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need

One person defending his gold and silver with a pistol + a single well aimed round is all it would take to keep you from getting their stash. And by chance should you get it, what's to prevent the next guy with 10,001 rounds, a bazooka from getting it from you? How long will you hang out in your home when a few well placed flaming arrows or bottles ignite it on fire? The whole neighborhood will eventually come down on your abode to "negotiate" with you. Good luck with your 10,000 rounds. Unless you're in the deep woods like Jeremiah Johnson I wouldn't bet too heavily on your ammo and weapons. There will always be another guy with more firepower who wants your stuff worse than you do.

roadrunner

Justacommeman · December 17, 2009 1:07PM

<< During the regional and local currency collapses of the 19th century what always came through as a store of value? As the currencies or debauched metal coin of many nations failed over the past 2000 years what was the next thing to re-establish a monetary system?

10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need

One person defending his gold and silver with a pistol + a single well aimed round is all it would take to keep you from getting their stash. And by chance should you get it, what's to prevent the next guy with 10,001 rounds, a bazooka from getting it from you? How long will you hang out in your home when a few well placed flaming arrows or bottles ignite it on fire? The whole neighborhood will eventually come down on your abode to "negotiate" with you. Good luck with your 10,000 rounds. Unless you're in the deep woods like Jeremiah Johnson I wouldn't bet too heavily on your ammo and weapons. There will always be another guy with more firepower who wants your stuff worse than you do.

roadrunner >>

moral of the story? cinman needs to buy more bullets. a lot more bullets......

Bear · December 17, 2009 2:03PM

The most basic and earliest sytem was barter.

This was trading one useful and necessary item

for another item needed to survive. Grain for chickens,

meat for shoes , milk for a knife ect, ect. Now, with so

many folks living in big cities, we do not have grain, meat

eggs , nor do we have the skills to make knives, horse shoes

or build houses. If the money is worthless, the only thing we

have to trade is something historically accepted as an alternative

to money and that is silver coins of yore,and gold. Now this is only

good for a relatively short time, if society truly does collapse, folks will

only trade for things needed to survive. Things to use, eat, wear and hunt

with. We eventually lose most of the population of the big cities and

the survivors return to the ways of the American Indian. Thus in answer

to the question, we big city folk will only have our gold , silver weapons

and wits to rely on.

cinman14 · December 17, 2009 10:27PM

<< moral of the story? cinman needs to buy more bullets. a lot more bullets......

>>

I guess I could always use the ammo to kill a few deer and have the wife grow some vegetables...

partagas · December 17, 2009 10:31PM

Very interesting perspectives, thanks all for sharing.

Now I don't think anything bad like what we have discussed would ever happen nation wide. But each day in debt we creep closer to the edge.

clouisejewelers · December 17, 2009 10:57PM

<< During the regional and local currency collapses of the 19th century what always came through as a store of value? As the currencies or debauched metal coin of many nations failed over the past 2000 years what was the next thing to re-establish a monetary system?

10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need

One person defending his gold and silver with a pistol + a single well aimed round is all it would take to keep you from getting their stash. And by chance should you get it, what's to prevent the next guy with 10,001 rounds, a bazooka from getting it from you? How long will you hang out in your home when a few well placed flaming arrows or bottles ignite it on fire? The whole neighborhood will eventually come down on your abode to "negotiate" with you. Good luck with your 10,000 rounds. Unless you're in the deep woods like Jeremiah Johnson I wouldn't bet too heavily on your ammo and weapons. There will always be another guy with more firepower who wants your stuff worse than you do.

roadrunner >>

So the moral of this story is to have both gold and guns, right?

Need to add my 2 cents here. Guns are worthless without the skills and mindset to use them.

halfhunter · December 17, 2009 11:42PM

<< Perhaps history has some use as a reference guide for your scenario. I submit that you are correct that my gold won't buy your food when there is little, or none. But, on the other hand, history is replete with examples of gold enabling people leave a disaster behind and move to where one is not. >>

I bet'cha as long one has gold there will be someone ready to barter. An economic collapse doesn't make the chickens stop laying, or the cows dry up.

Now you folks in the big cities . . .

HH

Bear · December 18, 2009 4:16AM

I don't care so much about the gold,

but don't nobody try to take my donuts!

yellowkid · December 18, 2009 4:41AM

The simple answer? We don't know.....

Justacommeman · December 18, 2009 6:18AM

When there is a monetary crisis barter will rule the day. You would have a better shot to trade with silver and gold then with anything else IMHO. MJ

Coll3ctor · December 18, 2009 6:43AM

<< 10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need...

>>

Water guns

7over8 · December 18, 2009 9:59AM

i think a small stockpile of cigarettes and cases of beer will do just fine for barter as well

also tp will be in demand

yellowkid · December 18, 2009 11:46AM

<< 

<< Perhaps history has some use as a reference guide for your scenario. I submit that you are correct that my gold won't buy your food when there is little, or none. But, on the other hand, history is replete with examples of gold enabling people leave a disaster behind and move to where one is not. >>

I bet'cha as long one has gold there will be someone ready to barter. An economic collapse doesn't make the chickens stop laying, or the cows dry up.

Now you folks in the big cities . . .

HH >>

No, but it does stop the trucks that deliver the chicken feed and whatever cows eat, cow food?

And how long do you think those city people are going to stay there? Lets hope we never find out.

JungleFever · December 19, 2009 10:18AM

Since the Dollar accounts for 3/4 of the entire world's currency, fake or real doesn't matter, in the event of a collapse of the dollar ummmmmmmmmm.....let me think.........yes, I do believe gold will matter just a little.

Collapse of other currencies: No.

yellowkid · December 19, 2009 11:53AM

The "global economy" has become inextricably connected, there is little chance that the collapse of the dollar, a value of zero which is what is often envisioned here, could happen without bringing down most of the worlds economies with it , creating world wide chaos. People talk about using their gold to "get somewhere, " where would that be? And how would you accomplish that? This isn't like you're going to sneak out of Albania and pay some border guard to look the other way while you slip into Greece, where everything is going to be hunky dorey, where are you going to go?
Save some gold as a hedge against inflation if you wish, that's probably the only good you will ever get out of it, but don't think if things get much worse than that that your gold is going to do you any good. How many of you who are actively planning for Armageddon are prepared to face the things in life that are infinitely more likely, like being injured and not being able to care for your family, you of course have disability insurance, sure you do, or ending up in a nursing home that costs $8500 a month like my wifes Mother, you have long term care insurance, of course you do, and of course you have fully financed your retirement needs, and if you have a young family they won't miss you if you die because you are have taken care of that also, and their educations. Not many of us have the means to insure against all of the misfortunes we can face in life, make sure you are using what you have sensibly.

moonshine · December 19, 2009 11:59AM

ya well, I heard they will be closing the borders - no passports anyway.

coynclecter · December 20, 2009 6:21AM

Heres a reference for ya

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Argentina currency collapse

yellowkid · December 21, 2009 9:29AM

<< Heres a reference for ya

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Argentina currency collapse >>

I notice that article was written last February, how long had Obama been in office, 5-6 weeks? My guess is that the author was vilifying him long before he even took office. What is it about the "other" political party that sets people off so? That makes everyone an expert in economics, law, international relations? This has always fascinated me and I've never heard a good explanation as to why. A great study I read about lately came up with findings that seem to indicate that the more slanted, the more biased, the means of how you receive your information about the world was, the more likely you were to become entrenched in that position and opposed to even suggestions from the other "camp."
Whom do you listen to, Fox or CBS, Rush or NPR ?

rgCoinGuy · December 21, 2009 10:11AM

<< 

<< Heres a reference for ya

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Argentina currency collapse >>

I notice that article was written last February, how long had Obama been in office, 5-6 weeks? My guess is that the author was vilifying him long before he even took office. What is it about the "other" political party that sets people off so? That makes everyone an expert in economics, law, international relations? This has always fascinated me and I've never heard a good explanation as to why. A great study I read about lately came up with findings that seem to indicate that the more slanted, the more biased, the means of how you receive your information about the world was, the more likely you were to become entrenched in that position and opposed to even suggestions from the other "camp."
Whom do you listen to, Fox or CBS, Rush or NPR ?

>>

The problem is not the opposition, it is the fact there is so MUCH opposition. NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, to answer your question. And if you cannot see the forest for the trees today, I will pray for you.

DoubleEagle59 · December 21, 2009 11:11AM

people recovered from Katrina,

people will recover from the coming Depression,

of course you need Gold.

gecko109 · December 21, 2009 11:24AM

<< Was gold worthless during Katrina? >>

If a family of 4 had say 10 ounces of gold during the time of Katrina, and had to evacuate quickly.....I would bet my next 5 paychecks that they would have been just fine for a few months after the hurricane hit.

Same applies to the family of four who had $5,000 in physical cash though. Therefore the OP's example is a very poor one. It was only the poorest people who ultimately suffered seriously. The well to do were simply displaced temporarily.

cinman14 · December 21, 2009 11:45AM

<< 

<< Was gold worthless during Katrina? >>

If a family of 4 had say 10 ounces of gold during the time of Katrina, and had to evacuate quickly.....I would bet my next 5 paychecks that they would have been just fine for a few months after the hurricane hit.

Same applies to the family of four who had $5,000 in physical cash though. Therefore the OP's example is a very poor one. It was only the poorest people who ultimately suffered seriously. The well to do were simply displaced temporarily. >>

If I remember correctly the Government was passing out 2000.00 debit cards like they were candy....

fishcooker · December 21, 2009 8:22PM

I listen to whatever news I want to. I *pay* for NPR though I don't want to.

BBN · December 22, 2009 1:32AM

<< 

<< Was gold worthless during Katrina? >>

If a family of 4 had say 10 ounces of gold during the time of Katrina, and had to evacuate quickly.....I would bet my next 5 paychecks that they would have been just fine for a few months after the hurricane hit.

Same applies to the family of four who had $5,000 in physical cash though. Therefore the OP's example is a very poor one. It was only the poorest people who ultimately suffered seriously. The well to do were simply displaced temporarily. >>

thaT's a good point. Gold does make a good savings acct although risky like any investment

DimeAdozen · December 22, 2009 3:09PM

At the time of monetary collapse we cant even rely on government...

Musky1011 · December 24, 2009 12:30AM

no--you can only trade services or what you know what to do

gsa1fan · December 24, 2009 12:51AM

My knowledge and services will demand payment in Au & Ag

topstuf · December 24, 2009 4:15AM

Those thinking that gold won't "get them anywhere" should talk to some of the Viet refugees who sold me gold Taels back in the 70's.
Gold allowed them to stay on the boat. No gold got them a swim.

Consider one thing.

Gasoline is STILL 30 cents a gallon in the same money we used when the PUMP PRICE was 30 cents.

All else is chaff.

moonshine · December 25, 2009 2:17AM

gecko - if the dollar collapses your theory won't work -- you would need gold, not useless US currency.

buffalonut · December 25, 2009 2:59AM

<< 10,000 rounds of .223 and 40 cal ammo will get me all the gold, silver and food I need...

>>

Most people that own gold and silver and think far enough ahead to store food are not as lightly armed as you.

COINB0Y · December 25, 2009 2:02PM

I better start getting more fractionals.

I forgot how tough it will be to cut up a $50 eagle into 10ths, equally

coynclecter · December 26, 2009 3:25AM

<< << Heres a reference for ya

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Argentina currency collapse >>

I notice that article was written last February, how long had Obama been in office, 5-6 weeks? My guess is that the author was vilifying him long before he even took office. What is it about the "other" political party that sets people off so? That makes everyone an expert in economics, law, international relations? This has always fascinated me and I've never heard a good explanation as to why. A great study I read about lately came up with findings that seem to indicate that the more slanted, the more biased, the means of how you receive your information about the world was, the more likely you were to become entrenched in that position and opposed to even suggestions from the other "camp."
Whom do you listen to, Fox or CBS, Rush or NPR ?
>>

The discussion was about "economic collapse" and this link was to a guy who lived through the Argentina economic collapse. I'm not sure how you twisted that into an "Obama, Fox, Rush type "politcal issue.

jmski52 · December 26, 2009 4:46AM

A great study I read about lately came up with findings that seem to indicate that the more slanted, the more biased, the means of how you receive your information about the world was, the more likely you were to become entrenched in that position and opposed to even suggestions from the other "camp."

I should make a couple of comments about that. There's an awful lot of manipulation of the Independents (and Conservatives) going on:

Let's consider how Congress votes. The recent health care bill is a good example. If 60 votes are required in the Senate in order to pass a bill and there are 60 Democrats in the Senate, a hotly contested bill will pass by a 60-40 vote.

Conversely, if a measure in the Senate only requires a simple majority and there are 60 Democrats in the Senate - why is it that the typical vote will be 51-49? Simply put, it's because the system is corrupt and the Senate Majority Leader will allow 9 of his party to vote in opposition so that they "look good" back home when campaign season rolls around.

A person who considers himself to be a political "independent" is manipulated by this type of crap because he might look at the record and believe that his Democratic Senator is basically a moderate.

On the other side of the aisle, you get "leaders" such as Newt Gingrich advocating for the "moderate Republican" instead of a conservative Constitutionalist in places like New Hampshire, under a "big tent" philosophy - only to find out that the "moderate Republican" is even more liberal than the Democrat running on the other ticket. In the meantime, all principles go out the window.

So, I tend to believe that Democrats are all liberals no matter how "moderate" they are presented as, and that Republicans don't really represent the people whose votes they solicit because they delude themselves into thinking that they can be "inclusive" instead of following basic principles and beliefs.

In the end, many people go unrepresented and it's usually the Independents and the Conservatives who might actually bring some reason and common sense to the table. They get sold out by the Republicans (like Bush, like McCain) every time. Just my opinion.

How does this relate to gold & silver in a monetary collapse as stated in the OP? Well, the best way to avoid a monetary collapse is to bring some common sense back into the process. Standing for principles might help a bit as well. How we get there is another issue.

MrOrganic · December 26, 2009 6:21AM

Basic needs
Water, shelter, food

Guns & ammo to protect them.

lastly PM's to bribe the FEMA guards

cohodk · December 26, 2009 7:05AM

<< A great study I read about lately came up with findings that seem to indicate that the more slanted, the more biased, the means of how you receive your information about the world was, the more likely you were to become entrenched in that position and opposed to even suggestions from the other "camp."

I should make a couple of comments about that. There's an awful lot of manipulation of the Independents (and Conservatives) going on:

Let's consider how Congress votes. The recent health care bill is a good example. If 60 votes are required in the Senate in order to pass a bill and there are 60 Democrats in the Senate, a hotly contested bill will pass by a 60-40 vote.

Conversely, if a measure in the Senate only requires a simple majority and there are 60 Democrats in the Senate - why is it that the typical vote will be 51-49? Simply put, it's because the system is corrupt and the Senate Majority Leader will allow 9 of his party to vote in opposition so that they "look good" back home when campaign season rolls around.

A person who considers himself to be a political "independent" is manipulated by this type of crap because he might look at the record and believe that his Democratic Senator is basically a moderate.

On the other side of the aisle, you get "leaders" such as Newt Gingrich advocating for the "moderate Republican" instead of a conservative Constitutionalist in places like New Hampshire, under a "big tent" philosophy - only to find out that the "moderate Republican" is even more liberal than the Democrat running on the other ticket. In the meantime, all principles go out the window.

So, I tend to believe that Democrats are all liberals no matter how "moderate" they are presented as, and that Republicans don't really represent the people whose votes they solicit because they delude themselves into thinking that they can be "inclusive" instead of following basic principles and beliefs.

In the end, many people go unrepresented and it's usually the Independents and the Conservatives who might actually bring some reason and common sense to the table. They get sold out by the Republicans (like Bush, like McCain) every time. Just my opinion.

How does this relate to gold & silver in a monetary collapse as stated in the OP? Well, the best way to avoid a monetary collapse is to bring some common sense back into the process. Standing for principles might help a bit as well. How we get there is another issue. >>

So true, yet so sad.

yellowkid · December 26, 2009 9:52AM

<< Those thinking that gold won't "get them anywhere" should talk to some of the Viet refugees who sold me gold Taels back in the 70's.
Gold allowed them to stay on the boat. No gold got them a swim.

Consider one thing.

Gasoline is STILL 30 cents a gallon in the same money we used when the PUMP PRICE was 30 cents.

All else is chaff. >>

I'll keep that in mind when I'm escaping from some third world country.

Is gold and silver really all that important in a monetary collapse?

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