<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
BWAHAHAHAHA!
TDN = novice. *giggle*
That board is chock full of people gushing over each other's juiced pictures. That place is anathema for anyone who strives for realism in numismatic imagery.
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
BWAHAHAHAHA!
TDN = novice. *giggle*
That board is chock full of people gushing over each other's juiced pictures. That place is anathema for anyone who strives for realism in numismatic imagery.
*shudder* >>
I was one of the original members there when Ron created the website. After a quick inspection, most of those who actually have a clue don't seem to post there any more.
As far as the toned trade dollar.... it's ok I guess but to have to put that much light on something to bring out any color would make it not too desirable in my eyes. If you want to see truly spectacular toned trade dollars, then look up the Silbermann catalog sometime. When I won the PCGS World Series of Grading [not bad for a novice, eh?] the first year, a Silbermann coin was included and it was pretty darn spectacular. Of course, if you really want to see a nicely toned proof trade dollar then you can go to www.coinace.com and look up their PF69 that they handled about a decade ago.
You know - back when a few of those toned coin posters were in diapers.
<< <i>As far as the toned trade dollar.... it's ok I guess but to have to put that much light on something to bring out any color would make it not too desirable in my eyes. If you want to see truly spectacular toned trade dollars, then look up the Silbermann catalog sometime. When I won the PCGS World Series of Grading [not bad for a novice, eh?] the first year, a Silbermann coin was included and it was pretty darn spectacular. Of course, if you really want to see a nicely toned proof trade dollar then you can go to www.coinace.com and look up their PF69 that they handled about a decade ago.
You know - back when a few of those toned coin posters were in diapers. >>
yes ive seen those coins you are refering to before and they are simply stunning. As far as the trade dollar I posted its a proof and I simply couldnt get it to image at all hence the terrible photos. In hand the coin is extremly colorful and does not need much light at all to bring out all the color its jsut my horrible image maybe I will attempt to reshoot that thing.
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
While I can't speak for others on the TCCS I certainly do not agree with "Marauderrt10's" statement above and it made me cringe when I read it.
It's embarrassing imo
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not to hijack the thread, but it's worth repeating that IMO since there's no accepted universal definition of NT, then it's really a worthless term. All that truly matters is MA or not MA. And HRH just came out and said that rainbow Peace dollars are no longer MA in their eyes so don't expect them to holder.
<< <i>STman,tell us a story.TDN,Apologies for some of the younger TCCS members,i am with you. >>
A voice of reason from the desert : )
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I can't wrap my head around what the big deal is here. What he said seems to me to be correct. Peace dollars don't tone all rainbowy pretty the way Morgans do. That is a plain fact, and everyone knows it. I don't think the man was saying a Peace Dollar with any color at all is AT.
I could be wrong, the overall tone of his post is that Peace Dollars that Look like toned 1883 Morgans are probably faked. I take a lot of pride in my collection of high and higher end toned peace dollars - and I don't take issue with a single that Hall said.
I posted this reply in another thread but I think its relevent in this topic.
Due to demand I think its safe to say that in the last decade there has been a rise in the number of rainbow toned coins available. They literally seem to be everywhere. I think coin doctoring is becoming a growing concern and PCGS amongst others have just started to tighten the screw up a bit.
Colourful coins do command a premium and PCGS don't want collectors to be taken for a ride. Collectors should only want to pay extra for coins that have developed a nice colour over a reasonably long period of time as opposed to one that took a doctor a day or two to knock up.
I also think Mr Hall is giving his honest opinion in his first post (whether it is liked or not) which should be respected. I would much rather a leader of a company be honest then simply play the politician and constantly give halfway answers. He has been dealing with coins for many years. If he says back in the day there weren't this many colourful coins (or peace dollars to be specific), where were they hiding? Were collectors just stashing them away? Or where they just in transition and just suddenly start to change into these lovely colours in the last couple of years naturally?
As many have stated in the 90's the buzz was for blast white coins so you would expect a lot of these high grade colourful coins to have been dipped, so for so many to survive and suddenly creep out of the woodwork is a bit lets say unexpected.
My guess is they were hiding in albums and bags. Until the internet really started bringing coins out in the late 90's/2000's they were still in the situation that gave them the color David did not see in the 70's.
My guess is they were hiding in albums and bags. Until the internet really started bringing coins out in the late 90's/2000's they were still in the situation that gave them the color David did not see in the 70's. >>
<< <i>i need a knife to cut through all this egotism in this thread. >>
You can sure say that again.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My guess is they were hiding in albums and bags. Until the internet really started bringing coins out in the late 90's/2000's they were still in the situation that gave them the color David did not see in the 70's.
If indeed some are natural (and I'm not saying I believe they are all AT) that is really the only probable answer.
I'm just in this debate to learn and the best way to learn is to ask questions and share your views.
There's no arguing that the advent of the internet has opened the doors for a lot more coins to be bought and sold a lot easier. But prior to the internet there have always been mail order (dealers lists), coin shows and coin auctions and at the time where there very many dealers list auction list actually listing rainbow or colourfully toned peace dollars? If the answer is no then the only probable explanation is that all these toned peace dollars where in a state of transition and have only recently reached their full bloom, which of course is open to debate.
I remember that 1922, and all the fighting/opinions on AT vs. NT. It reminds me of a quiz I took YESTERDAY on MSN, "fake or real" regarding Prada sunglasses, Coach and LVitton purses, Cartier watches, etc. JUST ABOUT EVERY PICTURE YOU COULD VOTE ON (WHETHER REAL OR FAKE), WAS TALLIED AT ABOUT 50/50!!! (I'm not in to buying a $500 pair of sunglasses unless it comes with a 1 carat diamond, and I have to see the diamond...). On one side of the opinion group, you should be shot paying so much for a luxury item, when you could "feed the poor". To others, they feel they earned it, (or their lady earned it sort of), or it makes one look "wealthy", or "successful" - helping to stroke the ego, temporarily cover insecurity, etc. You could argue both sides for years. But I couldn't ignore the fact - few could consistently TELL THE DIFFERENCE.
Same with the AT vs. NT arguement. Does it really matter to you if it is AT or NT??? If you love the electric blue, or the rainbow flare, the crescents, etc., and you are interested in owning one, then -- pay what you will. Does it HAVE to be in a PCGS holder?? (I think Hall did NOT mention PCGS will not slab them in the future).
Market acceptance is a valid point. PCGS is under grading guarantees. If these NT (or AT) coins shoot through the roof in value, are they responsible to give your money back if they start losing drastically in value??? (and do they have to defend AT vs. NT?? As a business, some things are not worth the risk vs. reward. Come to think of it, if PCGS DID stop grading these, then the EXISTING ones would possibly increase in value - leaving PCGS with greater guarantee risk, no?).
SO if a poll was done on many of these AT or NT coins, bet the results would be 50/50. Buy what you love.
The rule should be that for each toned peace dollar you own, you can make one inflammatory post so long as it includes a picture of the coin. This will at least quantify a finite limit of said posts.
This is a controversial thread and more so because it was initiated by HRH. The debate on what is NT and AT has been on hundreds or more prior threads. I love toned coins but appreciated that the process of toning or oxidation can occur without intent or with intent. If by intent it can be done subtly or not. Many of the toned coins in the market place have been helped along. How many (what percentage) is not known for sure but it is not a small number. Masters of the craft of inducing toning can be very good or not. I personally believe that the best artists can color a coin that is indisguishable from a "NT" example. If this is true, then I agree with TDN and the the other disciples that MA or MU becomes by necessity the rule of the day. HRH is one of the most important threshold definers and thus his opinions hold great weight as they create or determine value. Thus his stated views carry huge weight if placed into practice. BTW IMHO many of the coins shown on this thread are not subtly toned and were "painted" to enhance value. It has been pointed out to me that the percentage of a given coin (date, mm) that have been AT is the inverse of the rarity of the coin. It is not as risky as an artist to "paint" a common coin and make it more pricey than to do the same on a more valuable coin. For those who like colorful art and accept it for your judgment of attractiveness, be happy and don't worry (unless you can't find a like minded recipient should you wish to sell a coin). The ones of course at greatest risk of a revisionist theory of MA are those who have a business of painting or marketing painted coins. I can understand your angst even if I do not agree with your business practice.
OK here's my serious response to the thread....If toned Peace dollars are all AT, then why arent there more of them? Seems the same 10 peace dollars pop up in all toned peace dollar threads.
<< <i>I love this thread. Please don't let it die. It would be like a little piece of me going down with it. >>
Oh, I don't think it will die specially with toned coin collectors laughing at people who pick on toned coins and toned coin collectors alike. People who act childish and hang onto the hosts *&%( for the very unprofessional comment made on all piece dollars been AT.
<< <i>I love this thread. Please don't let it die. It would be like a little piece of me going down with it. >>
Oh, I don't think it will die specially with toned coin collectors laughing at people who pick on toned coins and toned coin collectors alike. People who act childish and hang onto the hosts *&%( for the very unprofessional comment made on all piece dollars been AT. >>
A guy who uses *&%( to imply dick then calls someone else unprofessional is kind of like a person who collection looks like an oil slick on water trying to act like an impartial, unbiased opinion on the matter of toning and right wrong or indifferently have been around more coins and coin experts. And for once and for all please don't think that people who dislike "Rainbow Toning" are all blast white people. Let's not forget there is a happy medium called natural toning. Such as the molten browns, dark slates, Dark greenish blacks and dusty gold's and what not. And while it's true that a limited number of coins have developed some semblance of rainbow toning due to improper storage and exposure to moisture, sulfur and certain petroleum products(plastics) & early skin stripping dips in a unintentional way these coins are but a small % of the wild coins out there.
weren't there a high percentage of dealers that would dip anything with color?
I find it interesting that some people are quoting a 70 year time as needed for metal toning
as I condsider it a gradual process rather than an all-or-none
and the guy that says silver goes from siver to black
doesn't understand the thin layer refraction and thin-film interference
which is fine as everyone is entitled to their opinion >>
Where to start with this "thin layer refraction and thin-film interference" Quite a term to hang your hat on but if you want to bring optical physics into the equation then let's. The effect you reference is also known as wave propagation which is more or less two wave lengths of light originating form a common source (light bulb) bouncing off of two different things and reaching back to a common point (eye) as different wave lengths(color). K
So this is why you bring it to the table, the silver oxides when very thin will refract at a rate closer to silver then black due to the translucence on the Silver Ox(Ag 2O) hence color. K
The problem is the silver Ox "grows" at a variable rate due to environment variables that tend to lend them self to a more uniform appearance. This is why you will offten see a slight band of color at the edge of a sploch of darker toning as the edge is the thinnest point. And that is simply passive toning. Active toning is often seen as target toning from albums and holders. At which point the toning becomes self perpetuating and is seen as bands similar to stages of a tree. That is an accelerant based reaction. K
To have a vividly toned coins you would need a controlled environment and an accelerant although rare it happen naturally as it did in the GSA. You had a place where the coins didn't tone unless they came into contact with a accelerant which caused Silver sulfide((Ag 2s) not oxide) which has different refraction rate then Silver Ox. The whole reason why the GSA coins look different "higher % of rainbow". K
Silver sulfide is everywhere and can be brought on by....wait for it.....wait for it.......Heat!!! Silver sulfide is reactive around 450% and higher or somewhere close to that. That is why if you put some moisture and silver in a oven you get rainbow coin. Now I will admit that they looking nothing like the decade long produced GSA coins and every cook will tell you slow cooking is different than shake and bake but it's the doctors job to perfect the technique and come up with different methods to trick people.
That is what you are talking about with my limited amount of understanding but please remember it is up to the person to decide how they think any particular coin came about its color. JMHO
Comments
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
BWAHAHAHAHA!
TDN = novice. *giggle*
That board is chock full of people gushing over each other's juiced pictures. That place is anathema for anyone who strives for realism in numismatic imagery.
*shudder*
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
BWAHAHAHAHA!
TDN = novice. *giggle*
That board is chock full of people gushing over each other's juiced pictures. That place is anathema for anyone who strives for realism in numismatic imagery.
*shudder* >>
I was one of the original members there when Ron created the website. After a quick inspection, most of those who actually have a clue don't seem to post there any more.
You know - back when a few of those toned coin posters were in diapers.
<< <i>As far as the toned trade dollar.... it's ok I guess but to have to put that much light on something to bring out any color would make it not too desirable in my eyes. If you want to see truly spectacular toned trade dollars, then look up the Silbermann catalog sometime. When I won the PCGS World Series of Grading [not bad for a novice, eh?] the first year, a Silbermann coin was included and it was pretty darn spectacular. Of course, if you really want to see a nicely toned proof trade dollar then you can go to www.coinace.com and look up their PF69 that they handled about a decade ago.
You know - back when a few of those toned coin posters were in diapers.
yes ive seen those coins you are refering to before and they are simply stunning. As far as the trade dollar I posted its a proof and I simply couldnt get it to image at all hence the terrible photos. In hand the coin is extremly colorful and does not need much light at all to bring out all the color its jsut my horrible image
That's a good thing. I loooove electric blue [although I don't necessarily consider it NT, just MA and verrrry desirable!]
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
While I can't speak for others on the TCCS I certainly do not agree with "Marauderrt10's" statement above and it made me cringe when I read it.
It's embarrassing imo
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am a founding member @ TCCU and you certainaly do not speak for me.
Your statement about TDN lacks weight with me
Rainbow Stars
Thanks guys
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>WOW, I thought this was one of the worlds finest toned Peace$. From another big toned dealer. Wait, he ain't a big toned dealer anymore.
I'll see your Peace $1 and raise you a Gobrecht $1.
<< <i>STman,tell us a story.TDN,Apologies for some of the younger TCCS members,i am with you.
A voice of reason from the desert : )
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>WOW, I thought this was one of the worlds finest toned Peace$. From another big toned dealer. Wait, he ain't a big toned dealer anymore.
This coin is still my favorite AT-NT debate oh how that turned out
I could be wrong, the overall tone of his post is that Peace Dollars that Look like toned 1883 Morgans are probably faked. I take a lot of pride in my collection of high and higher end toned peace dollars - and I don't take issue with a single that Hall said.
Due to demand I think its safe to say that in the last decade there has been a rise in the number of rainbow toned coins available. They literally seem to be everywhere. I think coin doctoring is becoming a growing concern and PCGS amongst others have just started to tighten the screw up a bit.
Colourful coins do command a premium and PCGS don't want collectors to be taken for a ride. Collectors should only want to pay extra for coins that have developed a nice colour over a reasonably long period of time as opposed to one that took a doctor a day or two to knock up.
I also think Mr Hall is giving his honest opinion in his first post (whether it is liked or not) which should be respected. I would much rather a leader of a company be honest then simply play the politician and constantly give halfway answers. He has been dealing with coins for many years. If he says back in the day there weren't this many colourful coins (or peace dollars to be specific), where were they hiding? Were collectors just stashing them away? Or where they just in transition and just suddenly start to change into these lovely colours in the last couple of years naturally?
As many have stated in the 90's the buzz was for blast white coins so you would expect a lot of these high grade colourful coins to have been dipped, so for so many to survive and suddenly creep out of the woodwork is a bit lets say unexpected.
<< <i> where were they hiding? . >>
My guess is they were hiding in albums and bags. Until the internet really started bringing coins out in the late 90's/2000's they were still in the situation that gave them the color David did not see in the 70's.
<< <i>
<< <i> where were they hiding? . >>
My guess is they were hiding in albums and bags. Until the internet really started bringing coins out in the late 90's/2000's they were still in the situation that gave them the color David did not see in the 70's. >>
Exactomundo!
<< <i>i need a knife to cut through all this egotism in this thread. >>
You can sure say that again.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If indeed some are natural (and I'm not saying I believe they are all AT) that is really the only probable answer.
I'm just in this debate to learn and the best way to learn is to ask questions and share your views.
There's no arguing that the advent of the internet has opened the doors for a lot more coins to be bought and sold a lot easier.
But prior to the internet there have always been mail order (dealers lists), coin shows and coin auctions and at the time where there very many dealers list auction list actually listing rainbow or colourfully toned peace dollars? If the answer is no then the only probable explanation is that all these toned peace dollars where in a state of transition and have only recently reached their full bloom, which of course is open to debate.
Same with the AT vs. NT arguement. Does it really matter to you if it is AT or NT??? If you love the electric blue, or the rainbow flare, the crescents, etc., and you are interested in owning one, then -- pay what you will. Does it HAVE to be in a PCGS holder?? (I think Hall did NOT mention PCGS will not slab them in the future).
Market acceptance is a valid point. PCGS is under grading guarantees. If these NT (or AT) coins shoot through the roof in value, are they responsible to give your money back if they start losing drastically in value??? (and do they have to defend AT vs. NT?? As a business, some things are not worth the risk vs. reward. Come to think of it, if PCGS DID stop grading these, then the EXISTING ones would possibly increase in value - leaving PCGS with greater guarantee risk, no?).
SO if a poll was done on many of these AT or NT coins, bet the results would be 50/50. Buy what you love.
The debate on what is NT and AT has been on hundreds or more prior threads.
I love toned coins but appreciated that the process of toning or oxidation can occur without intent or with intent. If by intent it can be done subtly or not.
Many of the toned coins in the market place have been helped along. How many (what percentage) is not known for sure but it is not a small number.
Masters of the craft of inducing toning can be very good or not. I personally believe that the best artists can color a coin that is indisguishable from a "NT" example. If this is true, then I agree with TDN and the the other disciples that MA or MU becomes by necessity the rule of the day. HRH is one of the most important threshold definers and thus his opinions hold great weight as they create or determine value. Thus his stated views carry huge weight if placed into practice.
BTW IMHO many of the coins shown on this thread are not subtly toned and were "painted" to enhance value.
It has been pointed out to me that the percentage of a given coin (date, mm) that have been AT is the inverse of the rarity of the coin. It is not as risky as an artist to "paint" a common coin and make it more pricey than to do the same on a more valuable coin.
For those who like colorful art and accept it for your judgment of attractiveness, be happy and don't worry (unless you can't find a like minded recipient should you wish to sell a coin). The ones of course at greatest risk of a revisionist theory of MA are those who have a business of painting or marketing painted coins. I can understand your angst even if I do not agree with your business practice.
I can only imagine how this thread would be and what tone it might take on if you edit the title to read:
"My stuff on eBay... and a little controversy".
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
weren't there a high percentage of dealers that would dip anything with color?
I find it interesting that some people are quoting a 70 year time as needed for metal toning
as I condsider it a gradual process rather than an all-or-none
and the guy that says silver goes from siver to black
doesn't understand the thin layer refraction and thin-film interference
which is fine as everyone is entitled to their opinion
<< <i>I love this thread. Please don't let it die. It would be like a little piece of me going down with it. >>
Oh, I don't think it will die specially with toned coin collectors laughing at people who pick on toned coins and toned coin collectors alike. People who act childish and hang onto the hosts *&%( for the very unprofessional comment made on all piece dollars been AT.
<< <i>
<< <i>I love this thread. Please don't let it die. It would be like a little piece of me going down with it. >>
Oh, I don't think it will die specially with toned coin collectors laughing at people who pick on toned coins and toned coin collectors alike. People who act childish and hang onto the hosts *&%( for the very unprofessional comment made on all piece dollars been AT. >>
A guy who uses *&%( to imply dick then calls someone else unprofessional is kind of like a person who collection looks like an oil slick on water trying to act like an impartial, unbiased opinion on the matter of toning and right wrong or indifferently have been around more coins and coin experts. And for once and for all please don't think that people who dislike "Rainbow Toning" are all blast white people. Let's not forget there is a happy medium called natural toning. Such as the molten browns, dark slates, Dark greenish blacks and dusty gold's and what not. And while it's true that a limited number of coins have developed some semblance of rainbow toning due to improper storage and exposure to moisture, sulfur and certain petroleum products(plastics) & early skin stripping dips in a unintentional way these coins are but a small % of the wild coins out there.
<< <i>when was 'blast white' in vogue?
weren't there a high percentage of dealers that would dip anything with color?
I find it interesting that some people are quoting a 70 year time as needed for metal toning
as I condsider it a gradual process rather than an all-or-none
and the guy that says silver goes from siver to black
doesn't understand the thin layer refraction and thin-film interference
which is fine as everyone is entitled to their opinion >>
Where to start with this "thin layer refraction and thin-film interference"
Quite a term to hang your hat on but if you want to bring optical physics into the equation then let's. The effect you reference is also known as wave propagation which is more or less two wave lengths of light originating form a common source (light bulb) bouncing off of two different things and reaching back to a common point (eye) as different wave lengths(color). K
So this is why you bring it to the table, the silver oxides when very thin will refract at a rate closer to silver then black due to the translucence on the Silver Ox(Ag 2O) hence color. K
The problem is the silver Ox "grows" at a variable rate due to environment variables that tend to lend them self to a more uniform appearance. This is why you will offten see a slight band of color at the edge of a sploch of darker toning as the edge is the thinnest point. And that is simply passive toning. Active toning is often seen as target toning from albums and holders. At which point the toning becomes self perpetuating and is seen as bands similar to stages of a tree. That is an accelerant based reaction. K
To have a vividly toned coins you would need a controlled environment and an accelerant although rare it happen naturally as it did in the GSA. You had a place where the coins didn't tone unless they came into contact with a accelerant which caused Silver sulfide((Ag 2s) not oxide) which has different refraction rate then Silver Ox. The whole reason why the GSA coins look different "higher % of rainbow". K
Silver sulfide is everywhere and can be brought on by....wait for it.....wait for it.......Heat!!! Silver sulfide is reactive around 450% and higher or somewhere close to that. That is why if you put some moisture and silver in a oven you get rainbow coin. Now I will admit that they looking nothing like the decade long produced GSA coins and every cook will tell you slow cooking is different than shake and bake but it's the doctors job to perfect the technique and come up with different methods to trick people.
That is what you are talking about with my limited amount of understanding but please remember it is up to the person to decide how they think any particular coin came about its color. JMHO