<< <i>On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it? >>
Is that how we should read his statement? Seems he could have made that clearer then, and worded it so as to not make their body of work now seem a little suspect (JMO). Why change policy now?
<< <i>On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it? >>
Is that how we should read his statement? Seems he could have made that clearer then, and worded it so as to not make their body of work now seem a little suspect (JMO). Why change policy now? >>
I'm not so sure Mr. Hall has so much to do with day to day operations of grading anymore. It really sounds like all or most of his time and experience are going into this coinfacts project right now.
<< <i>" Because these are the dates that are known to have colorful toning. If they did it on other dates it would raise questions. " Ok thanks. Didnt think of that. I guess that makes sense. >>
Besides they are readily available and cheap so if ya screw up ya aint out much.
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with >>
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
That's the rub
Using your example the $1000 might be for a pop 320 coin
However, of that same 320 coins only 3 of them maybe pq toners
At that point it's supply vs demand.
Three preceived coveted coins for maybe 10 buyers and thus the $9,000 hammer
Remember to these collectors the remaining 317 of said coins don't exist their minds and neither does the sheet
So it's a net 3 population and not 320 for them
There is no sheet for pq toners
This concept seems to bother a lot of players not in the game
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
Contrary to what others have stated is the main reason.....the real reason mostly has to do with which coins had the largest mintages and which coins were stored in large quanties in cloth bags in bank vaults. The philly years from 1883 through 1887 just like the San francisco coins from 1879-1882 and the New Orleans minted coins from 1883-1885 have strong mintage with millions of coins setting in vaults for decades so there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are more of them than other dates. If a doctor could make a truly believeable toned key date and get it in a holder then the value would be $$$$
Sure there are risks toning key dates which would push folks towards common dates but as far as legitimate coins.....just look at mintages for the most part and coins that were historically found in large quantities in bank vaults will represent the largest quantity of toners.
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
People should do with their money what they want. Just don't whine,unless the intent is to entertain and amuse others,about it when it doesn't work out.
TDN has made some very astute observations that he is sharing with us in this thread.Thank you,TDN.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
People should do with their money what they want. Just don't whine,unless the intent is to entertain and amuse others,about it when it doesn't work out.
TDN has made some very astute observations that he is sharing with us in this thread.Thank you,TDN. >>
I agree....buy what you like and let others do thae same
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
This doesn't seem like such a hard question to answer. Here are a few answers:
1- Change in metal flow. The surface texture can certainly change how a coin reacts with its environment, as is seen with the way proof and uncirculated coins differ in toning, even if stored in similar ways. Circulated coins have had their physical surface characteristics altered as they've been worn down.
2- Circulated coins are dirty. An uncirculated coin is fresh metal, while circulated coins are coated in dirt and oils imparted by the users. These can certainly act as a barrier between the metal and its environment.
3- Many circulated coins moved around often, never continuously exposed to something that could tone them. Going from pocket to register to pile on a dresser, the coin may have never faced anything containing sulfur. On the flip side, uncirculated coins never made it out. Many were in a mint bag, a roll, an album, an envelope, a coin cabinet, etc. All of these locations can contain sulfur, which can tone a coin. Similarly, those in the middle of a bag or a more chemically-neutral container would not be exposed to sulfer, and thus you have naturally white (undipped) coins, as well.
That said, some circulated coins did make it into storage media often used for uncirculated coins... and some have toned. They aren't as common for reasons 1 and 2, but you can find circulated coins with album and envelope toning, which are probably the two most likely places you'd find a circulated coin that was removed from circulation by a collector.
Jeremy- is the coin in your signature line ATor NT in your opinion?
Thanks, MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I believe the coin in my signature is NT, if not only for many of the toner old-timers liking it, but also for the smooth color transitions and also the small breaks in color that are almost never found on AT pieces. In addition, the light crescent on the obverse gives credence to the idea that the coin was stored such that the reverse was against a backing (perhaps some type of paper or a bag), and the rim surrounded, leading to the peripheral toning on the obverse. Finally, the color is also very light on the coin, allowing lots of lustre to get through, rather than muting it.
The picture in my signature line was over-saturated because the colors dulled when reduced to such a size, and the same picture was needed for printing. Here's the original:
It does to me. Frankly, most white coins do nothing for me - they are interchangeable with every other white specimen out there. But a spectacularly toned specimen is a unique piece of art. For instance, my avatar is the single most spectacular trade dollar most have ever seen [I've heard of another in the private collection of the head of a TPG]. Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one? >>
The highest prices, in almost any collecting fields, are paid for the items that have original surface and show their "age" or patina", why should the coin markey be any different?
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
Contrary to what others have stated is the main reason.....the real reason mostly has to do with which coins had the largest mintages and which coins were stored in large quanties in cloth bags in bank vaults. The philly years from 1883 through 1887 just like the San francisco coins from 1879-1882 and the New Orleans minted coins from 1883-1885 have strong mintage with millions of coins setting in vaults for decades so there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are more of them than other dates. If a doctor could make a truly believeable toned key date and get it in a holder then the value would be $$$$
Sure there are risks toning key dates which would push folks towards common dates but as far as legitimate coins.....just look at mintages for the most part and coins that were historically found in large quantities in bank vaults will represent the largest quantity of toners. >>
Most knowledgeable folks would look strongly askance at a mint state 84-s or 92-s toned like your avatar.
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
This doesn't seem like such a hard question to answer. Here are a few answers:
1- Change in metal flow. The surface texture can certainly change how a coin reacts with its environment, as is seen with the way proof and uncirculated coins differ in toning, even if stored in similar ways. Circulated coins have had their physical surface characteristics altered as they've been worn down.
2- Circulated coins are dirty. An uncirculated coin is fresh metal, while circulated coins are coated in dirt and oils imparted by the users. These can certainly act as a barrier between the metal and its environment.
3- Many circulated coins moved around often, never continuously exposed to something that could tone them. Going from pocket to register to pile on a dresser, the coin may have never faced anything containing sulfur. On the flip side, uncirculated coins never made it out. Many were in a mint bag, a roll, an album, an envelope, a coin cabinet, etc. All of these locations can contain sulfur, which can tone a coin. Similarly, those in the middle of a bag or a more chemically-neutral container would not be exposed to sulfer, and thus you have naturally white (undipped) coins, as well.
That said, some circulated coins did make it into storage media often used for uncirculated coins... and some have toned. They aren't as common for reasons 1 and 2, but you can find circulated coins with album and envelope toning, which are probably the two most likely places you'd find a circulated coin that was removed from circulation by a collector.
Jeremy >>
There is no metal flow after a coin is struck. Circulation does not induce metal flow.
Copper is more reactive than silver with everything except sulfur. A Morgan which is 90% silver and 10% copper will likely not react with atmospheric contaminants until all of the surface copper is depleted. It is the very process by which the Intercept Shield technology works.
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others. >>
Cleaning and preservation of Coins and Medals by Sanford Durst has been a useful handbook. 70 years is the number it gives for how long metals will tone. Another part that I like from this book; Since copper comes from copper ore, over time, the copper wants to turn back into that copper ore. Only time will tell what our coinage will look like in 1000 years.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others. >>
Cleaning and preservation of Coins and Medals by Sanford Durst has been a useful handbook. 70 years is the number it gives for how long metals will tone. Another part that I like from this book; Since copper comes from copper ore, over time, the copper wants to turn back into that copper ore. Only time will tell what our coinage will look like in 1000 years.
Leo >>
I hesitate to recommend the Durst book, since it advocates, among other things, using a very fine steel wool to clean coins...... TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Another note about toning. The toning that smears off when you touch it is pretty much AT. NT is a change in the surface metal itself. The copper on the surface that's mixed with the silver as an alloy, the copper itself changes from colors to black depending on the enviorment it's subjected to and may change the color of the silver that surrounds it. I realize that I can't give the scientific semantics of the changes but this is how I've see it. Which brings up my point. Is this where the line is drawn between NT and AT? Are there scientific ways to tell if a coin was toned over a extended period of time or overnight? I think a study would need to be done on the properties of copper and silver to determine if there is a difference in how the metal structure takes form or breaks down. With NT, the process would be uneven but in a gradual aspect while AT would be more even due to the source affecting the entire coin in a short period of time, like heat from a torch or chemical. I'm certain there are a few metalurgists at NCS who could add or have given some insight to those TPGS who have used them to restore a few of their coins, to help them in grading toned coins. The downside can be compared to nuclear bombs, eventually every country will have them. The same goes for keeping many of the secrets hidden from distroying all our coins.....through the harsh cleanings and retoning of them solely to make sales. This is why I alluded in another thread, that someday, whatever natural & toned coins are left, they will be leased or rented, never to be owned again.
Leo
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I enjoy collecting 2-sided Toner coins of all types, as well as PL/DMPL Morgans which are typically either white or lightly toned. Therefore I consider myself open-minded enough to appreciate the aesthetic beauty of various type of coins whether toned or untoned.
In my opinion, there becomes a point where the progression of attractive lustrous toning becomes thick enough to appear dark, opaque and crusty, hiding the underlying luster of the coin's surface metal. At some point even "natural toning" however you define it, can progress to environmental damage which tends to have an uneven blotchy appearance. This may be what we observe on the right side of the reverse of the following coin (not my coin) posted in another recent toned coin thread.
I am trying to be objective here, so please don't shoot the messenger! However, I would appreciate seeing either corroborative or contradictory opinions if presented objectively.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>I enjoy collecting 2-sided Toner coins of all types, as well as PL/DMPL Morgans which are typically either white or lightly toned. Therefore I consider myself open-minded enough to appreciate the aesthetic beauty of various type of coins whether toned or untoned.
In my opinion, there becomes a point where the progression of attractive lustrous toning becomes thick enough to appear dark, opaque and crusty, hiding the underlying luster of the coin's surface metal. At some point even "natural toning" however you define it, can progress to environmental damage which tends to have an uneven blotchy appearance. This may be what we observe on the right side of the reverse of the following coin (not my coin) posted in another recent toned coin thread.
I am trying to be objective here, so please don't shoot the messenger! However, I would appreciate seeing either corroborative or contradictory opinions if presented objectively.
>>
If you like toned DMPLs I have a few monster toned ones, this one is my best.
<< <i>I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.
Like I said...I may be wrong...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH
I accept Mr. Halls seconding of my opinion of my Peace dollar. After looking at all the pictured Peace dollars here it only confirms my belief and many other astute collectors that it is the nicest toned Peace dollar we have seen in many years of collecting
<< <i>After looking at all the pictured Peace dollars here it only confirms my belief and many other astute collectors that it is the nicest toned Peace dollar we have seen in many years of collecting >>
<< <i>I will have to disagree, although it's the best graded, it is surely not toned better/luster than my 1924 >>
Sounds like each coin has found the correct owner!
thank you. Its clearly my opinion, but i have to admit yesterday when i got that 1924 peace dollar my jaw dropped, it is clearly the most gorgeous toned peace dollar i have ever seen. I do enjoy having 3 of the best toned peace dollars though. heres my third
<< <i>thank you. Its clearly my opinion, but i have to admit yesterday when i got that 1924 peace dollar my jaw dropped, it is clearly the most gorgeous toned peace dollar i have ever seen. I do enjoy having 3 of the best toned peace dollars though. heres my third
<< <i>No, I hate it. If the picture is accurate as portrayed on my screen, it's one of the most horridly AT Morgans that I've ever seen. >>
picture was taken with a 2000$ camera, no editing whatsoever. PCGS graded Well I wouldn't expect people on this board to understand nicely toned dollars anyway >>
I understand nicely toned dollars quite well - still waiting to see some.
If it's PCGS graded as you say, then it may very well be your imaging techniques. On my screen, your Morgan appears to be a circulated coin with crayons melted over it. Perhaps something was lost in the translation of the imaging software.
<< <i>thank you. Its clearly my opinion, but i have to admit yesterday when i got that 1924 peace dollar my jaw dropped, it is clearly the most gorgeous toned peace dollar i have ever seen. I do enjoy having 3 of the best toned peace dollars though. heres my third
its a 1923-s double sided rainbow!
>>
Oh Goodness >>
think it's AT also? Maybe you should go to the toned coin collector society board
<< <i>No, I hate it. If the picture is accurate as portrayed on my screen, it's one of the most horridly AT Morgans that I've ever seen. >>
picture was taken with a 2000$ camera, no editing whatsoever. PCGS graded Well I wouldn't expect people on this board to understand nicely toned dollars anyway >>
I understand nicely toned dollars quite well - still waiting to see some.
If it's PCGS graded as you say, then it may very well be your imaging techniques. On my screen, your Morgan appears to be a circulated coin with crayons melted over it. Perhaps something was lost in the translation of the imaging software. >>
my imaging techniques are top notch, maybe you need a new monitor. It is clearly not circulated, but it does have some wild colors on it.
Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
Comments
<< <i>On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it? >>
Is that how we should read his statement? Seems he could have made that clearer then, and worded it so as to not make their body of work now seem a little suspect (JMO). Why change policy now?
<< <i>
<< <i>On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it? >>
Is that how we should read his statement? Seems he could have made that clearer then, and worded it so as to not make their body of work now seem a little suspect (JMO). Why change policy now? >>
I'm not so sure Mr. Hall has so much to do with day to day operations of grading anymore. It really sounds like all or most of his time and experience are going into this coinfacts project right now.
<< <i>" Because these are the dates that are known to have colorful toning. If they did it on other dates it would raise questions. " Ok thanks. Didnt think of that. I guess that makes sense. >>
Besides they are readily available and cheap so if ya screw up ya aint out much.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
That's the rub
Using your example the $1000 might be for a pop 320 coin
However, of that same 320 coins only 3 of them maybe pq toners
At that point it's supply vs demand.
Three preceived coveted coins for maybe 10 buyers and thus the $9,000 hammer
Remember to these collectors the remaining 317 of said coins don't exist their minds and neither does the sheet
So it's a net 3 population and not 320 for them
There is no sheet for pq toners
This concept seems to bother a lot of players not in the game
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
Contrary to what others have stated is the main reason.....the real reason mostly has to do with which coins had the largest mintages and which coins were stored in large quanties in cloth bags in bank vaults. The philly years from 1883 through 1887 just like the San francisco coins from 1879-1882 and the New Orleans minted coins from 1883-1885 have strong mintage with millions of coins setting in vaults for decades so there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are more of them than other dates. If a doctor could make a truly believeable toned key date and get it in a holder then the value would be $$$$
Sure there are risks toning key dates which would push folks towards common dates but as far as legitimate coins.....just look at mintages for the most part and coins that were historically found in large quantities in bank vaults will represent the largest quantity of toners.
People should do with their money what they want. Just don't whine,unless the intent is to entertain and amuse others,about it when it doesn't work out.
TDN has made some very astute observations that he is sharing with us in this thread.Thank you,TDN.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
People should do with their money what they want. Just don't whine,unless the intent is to entertain and amuse others,about it when it doesn't work out.
TDN has made some very astute observations that he is sharing with us in this thread.Thank you,TDN.
I agree....buy what you like and let others do thae same
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
This doesn't seem like such a hard question to answer. Here are a few answers:
1- Change in metal flow. The surface texture can certainly change how a coin reacts with its environment, as is seen with the way proof and uncirculated coins differ in toning, even if stored in similar ways. Circulated coins have had their physical surface characteristics altered as they've been worn down.
2- Circulated coins are dirty. An uncirculated coin is fresh metal, while circulated coins are coated in dirt and oils imparted by the users. These can certainly act as a barrier between the metal and its environment.
3- Many circulated coins moved around often, never continuously exposed to something that could tone them. Going from pocket to register to pile on a dresser, the coin may have never faced anything containing sulfur. On the flip side, uncirculated coins never made it out. Many were in a mint bag, a roll, an album, an envelope, a coin cabinet, etc. All of these locations can contain sulfur, which can tone a coin. Similarly, those in the middle of a bag or a more chemically-neutral container would not be exposed to sulfer, and thus you have naturally white (undipped) coins, as well.
That said, some circulated coins did make it into storage media often used for uncirculated coins... and some have toned. They aren't as common for reasons 1 and 2, but you can find circulated coins with album and envelope toning, which are probably the two most likely places you'd find a circulated coin that was removed from circulation by a collector.
Jeremy
Thanks, MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The picture in my signature line was over-saturated because the colors dulled when reduced to such a size, and the same picture was needed for printing. Here's the original:
It does to me. Frankly, most white coins do nothing for me - they are interchangeable with every other white specimen out there. But a spectacularly toned specimen is a unique piece of art. For instance, my avatar is the single most spectacular trade dollar most have ever seen [I've heard of another in the private collection of the head of a TPG]. Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one? >>
The highest prices, in almost any collecting fields, are paid for the items that have original surface and show their "age" or patina", why should the coin markey be any different?
<< <i>
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
Contrary to what others have stated is the main reason.....the real reason mostly has to do with which coins had the largest mintages and which coins were stored in large quanties in cloth bags in bank vaults. The philly years from 1883 through 1887 just like the San francisco coins from 1879-1882 and the New Orleans minted coins from 1883-1885 have strong mintage with millions of coins setting in vaults for decades so there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are more of them than other dates. If a doctor could make a truly believeable toned key date and get it in a holder then the value would be $$$$
Sure there are risks toning key dates which would push folks towards common dates but as far as legitimate coins.....just look at mintages for the most part and coins that were historically found in large quantities in bank vaults will represent the largest quantity of toners. >>
Most knowledgeable folks would look strongly askance at a mint state 84-s or 92-s toned like your avatar.
As far as colorful 1921 morgans not existing...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Like I said...I may be wrong...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH
<< <i>I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.
Like I said...I may be wrond...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH >>
By AT you mean toned by something other than storage in a canvas bag or in an album or envelope?
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i>
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
This doesn't seem like such a hard question to answer. Here are a few answers:
1- Change in metal flow. The surface texture can certainly change how a coin reacts with its environment, as is seen with the way proof and uncirculated coins differ in toning, even if stored in similar ways. Circulated coins have had their physical surface characteristics altered as they've been worn down.
2- Circulated coins are dirty. An uncirculated coin is fresh metal, while circulated coins are coated in dirt and oils imparted by the users. These can certainly act as a barrier between the metal and its environment.
3- Many circulated coins moved around often, never continuously exposed to something that could tone them. Going from pocket to register to pile on a dresser, the coin may have never faced anything containing sulfur. On the flip side, uncirculated coins never made it out. Many were in a mint bag, a roll, an album, an envelope, a coin cabinet, etc. All of these locations can contain sulfur, which can tone a coin. Similarly, those in the middle of a bag or a more chemically-neutral container would not be exposed to sulfer, and thus you have naturally white (undipped) coins, as well.
That said, some circulated coins did make it into storage media often used for uncirculated coins... and some have toned. They aren't as common for reasons 1 and 2, but you can find circulated coins with album and envelope toning, which are probably the two most likely places you'd find a circulated coin that was removed from circulation by a collector.
Jeremy >>
There is no metal flow after a coin is struck. Circulation does not induce metal flow.
Copper is more reactive than silver with everything except sulfur. A Morgan which is 90% silver and 10% copper will likely not react with atmospheric contaminants until all of the surface copper is depleted. It is the very process by which the Intercept Shield technology works.
<< <i>I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.
Like I said...I may be wrond...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH >>
Thanks. I feel like I am not alone in my opinions about toning anymore.
<< <i>I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.
Like I said...I may be wrond...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH >>
wrong
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<< <i>
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others. >>
Cleaning and preservation of Coins and Medals by Sanford Durst has been a useful handbook. 70 years is the number it gives for how long metals will tone. Another part that I like from this book; Since copper comes from copper ore, over time, the copper wants to turn back into that copper ore. Only time will tell what our coinage will look like in 1000 years.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>David what do you think about these?
If you have to ask you don't want to know.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others. >>
Cleaning and preservation of Coins and Medals by Sanford Durst has been a useful handbook. 70 years is the number it gives for how long metals will tone. Another part that I like from this book; Since copper comes from copper ore, over time, the copper wants to turn back into that copper ore. Only time will tell what our coinage will look like in 1000 years.
Leo >>
I hesitate to recommend the Durst book, since it advocates, among other things, using a very fine steel wool to clean coins......
TD
Which brings up my point. Is this where the line is drawn between NT and AT? Are there scientific ways to tell if a coin was toned over a extended period of time or overnight? I think a study would need to be done on the properties of copper and silver to determine if there is a difference in how the metal structure takes form or breaks down. With NT, the process would be uneven but in a gradual aspect while AT would be more even due to the source affecting the entire coin in a short period of time, like heat from a torch or chemical. I'm certain there are a few metalurgists at NCS who could add or have given some insight to those TPGS who have used them to restore a few of their coins, to help them in grading toned coins.
The downside can be compared to nuclear bombs, eventually every country will have them. The same goes for keeping many of the secrets hidden from distroying all our coins.....through the harsh cleanings and retoning of them solely to make sales. This is why I alluded in another thread, that someday, whatever natural & toned coins are left, they will be leased or rented, never to be owned again.
Leo
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
In my opinion, there becomes a point where the progression of attractive lustrous toning becomes thick enough to appear dark, opaque and crusty, hiding the underlying luster of the coin's surface metal. At some point even "natural toning" however you define it, can progress to environmental damage which tends to have an uneven blotchy appearance. This may be what we observe on the right side of the reverse of the following coin (not my coin) posted in another recent toned coin thread.
I am trying to be objective here, so please don't shoot the messenger!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>
<< <i>David what do you think about these?
If you have to ask you don't want to know. >>
knowing how I feel about him you should of realized I was joking.
<< <i>I enjoy collecting 2-sided Toner coins of all types, as well as PL/DMPL Morgans which are typically either white or lightly toned. Therefore I consider myself open-minded enough to appreciate the aesthetic beauty of various type of coins whether toned or untoned.
In my opinion, there becomes a point where the progression of attractive lustrous toning becomes thick enough to appear dark, opaque and crusty, hiding the underlying luster of the coin's surface metal. At some point even "natural toning" however you define it, can progress to environmental damage which tends to have an uneven blotchy appearance. This may be what we observe on the right side of the reverse of the following coin (not my coin) posted in another recent toned coin thread.
I am trying to be objective here, so please don't shoot the messenger!
If you like toned DMPLs I have a few monster toned ones, this one is my best.
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.
Like I said...I may be wrong...but...
I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.
HRH
I accept Mr. Halls seconding of my opinion of my Peace dollar. After looking at all the pictured Peace dollars here it only confirms my belief and many other astute collectors that it is the nicest toned Peace dollar we have seen in many years of collecting
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>After looking at all the pictured Peace dollars here it only confirms my belief and many other astute collectors that it is the nicest toned Peace dollar we have seen in many years of collecting >>
<< <i>I will have to disagree, although it's the best graded, it is surely not toned better/luster than my 1924 >>
Sounds like each coin has found the correct owner!
<< <i>Sounds like each coin has found the correct owner! >>
Nice way to look at it.
I think both coins are fabulous.
its a 1923-s double sided rainbow!
<< <i>If you like toned DMPLs I have a few monster toned ones, this one is my best.
Oh goodness.
I just wonder if he was to lay it all out on the table , and give you his true ,honest opinion as to
how many rainbow toned coins out there were really A.T :
and he put it in print - how many of you would load up your pants ?
<< <i>
<< <i>If you like toned DMPLs I have a few monster toned ones, this one is my best.
Oh goodness. >>
I knew you would like it
<< <i>No, I hate it. If the picture is accurate as portrayed on my screen, it's one of the most horridly AT Morgans that I've ever seen. >>
picture was taken with a 2000$ camera, no editing whatsoever. PCGS graded
<< <i>thank you. Its clearly my opinion, but i have to admit yesterday when i got that 1924 peace dollar my jaw dropped, it is clearly the most gorgeous toned peace dollar i have ever seen. I do enjoy having 3 of the best toned peace dollars though. heres my third
its a 1923-s double sided rainbow!
Oh Goodness
<< <i>
<< <i>No, I hate it. If the picture is accurate as portrayed on my screen, it's one of the most horridly AT Morgans that I've ever seen. >>
picture was taken with a 2000$ camera, no editing whatsoever. PCGS graded
I understand nicely toned dollars quite well - still waiting to see some.
If it's PCGS graded as you say, then it may very well be your imaging techniques. On my screen, your Morgan appears to be a circulated coin with crayons melted over it. Perhaps something was lost in the translation of the imaging software.
<< <i>
<< <i>thank you. Its clearly my opinion, but i have to admit yesterday when i got that 1924 peace dollar my jaw dropped, it is clearly the most gorgeous toned peace dollar i have ever seen. I do enjoy having 3 of the best toned peace dollars though. heres my third
its a 1923-s double sided rainbow!
Oh Goodness >>
think it's AT also? Maybe you should go to the toned coin collector society board
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>No, I hate it. If the picture is accurate as portrayed on my screen, it's one of the most horridly AT Morgans that I've ever seen. >>
picture was taken with a 2000$ camera, no editing whatsoever. PCGS graded
I understand nicely toned dollars quite well - still waiting to see some.
If it's PCGS graded as you say, then it may very well be your imaging techniques. On my screen, your Morgan appears to be a circulated coin with crayons melted over it. Perhaps something was lost in the translation of the imaging software. >>
my imaging techniques are top notch, maybe you need a new monitor. It is clearly not circulated, but it does have some wild colors on it.
I've been there. Doesn't change the fact that the above coin is not Market Acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.
it does have some wild colors on it.
Yes, it does doesn't it.
What did PCGS grade that 1885-O silver dollar? The reverse looks very nice but I simply cannot understand the obverse either.
It looks like the left side has more lighting than the right side.
Also I can't make out the DMPL aspect of this coin either. Was this coin scanned?
My monitor is new by the way.
Here is a nice toned dollar for you to take a gander at. Recently sent it to CAC and got a little green bean as well.
Here is a neat trade dollar as well. I will admit the images of this trade dollar are terrible.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>Believe what you want. I wouldn't expect a novice to understand toned coins. Also if you think you have the best trade dollar, you clearly don't know toned coins. I along with others over on TCCS clearly know toned coins, it doesn't take an idiot to realize people here don't know what their talking about >>
ROTFLMAO.
Gorgeous!