I plan on keeping mine, and I'm going with NT, . This coin resides in a PCGS holder and was purchased from a collector who had been buying toned coins since the 70's. Andy Kimmel, a very loooonnng time dealer of toned coins has quite an interesting story about this coin. The province of which shows it has been around many, many years.
<< <i>I plan on keeping mine, and I'm going with NT, . This coin resides in a PCGS holder and was purchased from a collector who had been buying toned coins since the 70's. Andy Kimmel, a very loooonnng time dealer of toned coins has quite an interesting story about this coin. The province of which shows it has been around many, many years.
>>
Jack, that is amazing and I never tire of looking at it..............MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I plan on keeping mine, and I'm going with NT, . This coin resides in a PCGS holder and was purchased from a collector who had been buying toned coins since the 70's. Andy Kimmel, a very loooonnng time dealer of toned coins has quite an interesting story about this coin. The province of which shows it has been around many, many years.
>>
I may as well get my +1 in here with a larger image of Jack's Peace before this thread goes poof.
There's a very interesting discussion ATS concerning homerunhall's remarks concerning toned peace dollars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Right he's entitled to his opinion but it should in no way affect toned peace dollars from grading. He has no proof yet PCGS body bags without a shadow of a doubt NT coins for questionable color is a little more in depth than just an opinion. He is not the one grading the coins, his coleagues were hired for that very reason. So now all the toned peace dollars that were graded by his friends, is pretty much a slap in the face by second guessing them. What are they there for if their say means nothing?
I agree with everyone that he can state his opnion here or anywhere else that he would like to state it.....the fact is that his current opinion now differs with his and his staffs body of work. If they were slabbing AT coins then when else were they doing as far as grading standard consistency....probably nothing but the implication remains due to all of the certified colorful peace dollars in PCGS plastic that now look like they belong in genuine holders.
Like always the AT vs NT vs MA point is totally mute in this thread.....opinions will seldom ever change. The blast white possey will saddle up to and circle the wagons when ever they get a chance to yet again state how toning is damage, this coin is fake...that coin isn't original, those weren't around in my day......knowing full well they can not prove any of what they speak of any more that the toning consortium can provide written documentation as to where their coins have been for the last 100 years.
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I edit most of my posts for errors go back and look. You're a weird guy, I would never edit a post because of your opinion so I am not sure what you are implying. Fine, your coins are all NT jewels that will only increase in value and their window of having a liquid two way market isn't rapidly closing. Happy?
edited for consistency >>
I went to get popcorn and Dang it I missed the cartoon
IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
<< <i>Hey crypto79, I don't even know you and I don't like you from reading your commits and "opinions" towards Shane (Kryptonitecomics)
If you believe that Shane's avatar coin, the 1883 Morgan, is AT then I have no respect for you. That's an obvious bag toned Morgan!
And you need to take up a different hobby if you can't tell the difference.
But anyway.....
With the reverse blue toned morgan JZrarities posted.
Here's a '57p I pulled from a double mint set. Looks very similar...
>>
I am going to go out on a limb a take a guess which side of the fence you fall. Fyi Plastic is a petroleum distillate and esp the older stuff was full of hydrocarbons which is what cause that color. PVC causes a color too but what ever. My whole point was that any color other the dark brown- black is a reaction to something other than air(hydrogen). Which is call it what you will but miss handling wither it is chemicals left over treating fibers in the making of mint bags or taco bell napkins doesn't matter. With your logic green slimy PVC coins are NT.
Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS?
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
In the antique furniture world there is a similar debate always going on about painted pieces. Painted pieces, like toned coins command huge premiums so naturally, well, you know what happens. There is a constant "discussion" going on about who does what to his pieces, and who doesn't know real paint, and who spent $xxxxx on a piece, it was obviously a repaint. There will be, as in the furniture world, people who pay big money for fake surfaces, people who sell fake pieces while vehemently denying they are doing so, people who don't know fake from real, and people who can fake so well that you can't detect their work.
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
Yes, it is all luck of the draw.
That's the beauty of it! >>
That is not an intelligent thought out answer. Anyone have logic or science
Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
I have owned several including Morgans and peace dollars....I could post some if you like including curculated toned Morgans in PCGS holders if it would help?
Is there a strategy by where members/dealers might enjoy a discount for CoinFacts™ by having it inclusive with membership renewal, so as to avoid the "monthly" charge ? (Of course, I'm just working the counter, David.)
<< <i>Isn't this thread supposed to be about CoinFacts?
Or do we not mention the elephant in the room? >>
I think the OP knew exactly what he was doing
Time will tell when the other shoe will drop and we find out what this is really all about
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others.
So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned.
<< <i> So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well
<< <i>All toning is artificial. The question is whether it is intentional or inadvertent.
And since there is hardly any way to determine the intent, or lack therof...
Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin has, the farther it should be from MS70.
Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared by anyone it seems.
~ >>
Actually all toning is natural in that it is a product of the reaction of a silver coin or a silver spoon with the environment in which it gets placed. When the San Francisco mint struck millions of coins in 1880 they put them into canvas bags [which I assume were waterproof] solely for the purpose of storage with no other intended consequences. For this reason, coins from those bags are considered NT.
I propose a new term..not to be used as a grade but rather a condition..... AU
If a coin that came directly out of the mint in a bag or roll can now be deemed AT then all of the dipped out blast white type coins: Morgans, Peace dollars, Walking Liberty halves, Franklins etc .......then henceforth any white coin that can't be proven to have it's original skin will be considered AU - Artificially Untoned. I would bet that the amount of AU coins vs AT coins would be 50 to 1......funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
Toned coin lovers always have to prove how a coin was stored or what the intent of the owner was when storing the coin while widget collectors are never asked how the coin got so white or stayed untoned for so many decades......thats the biggest double standard in coins.....
IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"?
<< <i> So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well >>
IF your avatar was a circ toner, it most likely was an uncirc that got put into circ as opposed to a circ coin that actually toned. Put 1,000 au50 Morgans into a bag and in 40 years I bet you won't see toners like yours.
Okay, it looks like the word "artificial" has put put a few people on their high horse, so let me change that word, since it makes no difference to the rest of what I said. ----- All toning is "tarnish". The question is whether it is intentional or inadvertent.
And since there is hardly any way to determine the intent, or lack therof...
Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin has, the farther it should be from MS70.
Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared by anyone it seems.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i> So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well >>
IF your avatar was a circ toner, it most likely was an uncirc that got put into circ as opposed to a circ coin that actually toned. Put 1,000 au50 Morgans into a bag and in 40 years I bet you won't see toners like yours. >>
Not with the full coverage of color and depth of toning becuase they are circulated so the surfaces have been worn away but I bet they would have bands of rainbow toning due to coming into contact with the sulfer laden bag.....why wouldn't they?
<< <i>IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"? >>
Somewhat akin to pornography, it's difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
Think like a grader. You don't know the history of the coin, it just arrives in a flip on your tray. There's no such thing as AT/NT in the middle [of course there is in the extremes] - there's only MA or not MA.
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with >>
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white.
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with >>
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with >>
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
It does to me. Frankly, most white coins do nothing for me - they are interchangeable with every other white specimen out there. But a spectacularly toned specimen is a unique piece of art. For instance, my avatar is the single most spectacular trade dollar most have ever seen [I've heard of another in the private collection of the head of a TPG]. Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one?
<< <i>Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one? >>
Possibly, if I really like it and I know it's natural. The problem is that once the "toner premium" reached nosebleed levels, out came the coin doctors and started casting doubt on almost anything with color. Ironically, I suspect a lot of the "color doctoring" they performed was on coins that were dipped once upon a time to reflect a prior market's preference for "blast white."
<< <i>IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"? >>
It is most likely based on the experience of the person doing the evaluating.
If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most.
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
. Because these are the dates that are known to have colorful toning. If they did it on other dates it would raise questions.
" Because these are the dates that are known to have colorful toning. If they did it on other dates it would raise questions. " Ok thanks. Didnt think of that. I guess that makes sense.
If I had money tied up in toned Peace dollars, and they were graded by PCGS, I'd be quite upset at the statement Mr. Hall made. His own company has been certifying that these toners are natural, now we find out he doesn't agree with his own company's standard? Or is he saying that they're market acceptable but not really NT? That throws a new light on any toner graded by PCGS....What exactly is the meaning here? Or his motivation?
If I had money tied up in toned Peace dollars, and they were graded by PCGS, I'd be quite upset at the statement Mr. Hall made. His own company has been certifying that these toners are natural, now we find out he doesn't agree with his own company's standard? Or is he saying that they're market acceptable but not really NT? That throws a new light on any toner graded by PCGS....What exactly is the meaning here? Or his motivation? >>
On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it?
Comments
Rainbow Stars
Oh,it's not.Consider my remark about dinky-post count as a rare mr1874 non-relevant outburst.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>It would be great if David posted 100
Well, he missed that opportunity, but if you see him post "+1", take a good last look at this thread.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I plan on keeping mine, and I'm going with NT, . This coin resides in a PCGS holder and was purchased from a collector who had been buying toned coins since the 70's. Andy Kimmel, a very loooonnng time dealer of toned coins has quite an interesting story about this coin. The province of which shows it has been around many, many years.
Jack, that is amazing and I never tire of looking at it..............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I plan on keeping mine, and I'm going with NT, . This coin resides in a PCGS holder and was purchased from a collector who had been buying toned coins since the 70's. Andy Kimmel, a very loooonnng time dealer of toned coins has quite an interesting story about this coin. The province of which shows it has been around many, many years.
I may as well get my +1 in here with a larger image of Jack's Peace before this thread goes poof.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>i really really enjoy reading threads like this. hehehehe >>
Great stuff!!!!!
Let me edit this to say this is THE MOST entertainment I have had since I came here, whether or not I have learned anything, well....
<< <i>
Like always the AT vs NT vs MA point is totally mute in this thread.....opinions will seldom ever change. The blast white possey will saddle up to and circle the wagons when ever they get a chance to yet again state how toning is damage, this coin is fake...that coin isn't original, those weren't around in my day......knowing full well they can not prove any of what they speak of any more that the toning consortium can provide written documentation as to where their coins have been for the last 100 years.
If you believe that Shane's avatar coin, the 1883 Morgan, is AT then I have no respect for you. That's an obvious bag toned Morgan!
And you need to take up a different hobby if you can't tell the difference.
But anyway.....
With the reverse blue toned morgan JZrarities posted.
Here's a '57p I pulled from a double mint set. Looks very similar...
<< <i>
<< <i>
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I edit most of my posts for errors go back and look. You're a weird guy, I would never edit a post because of your opinion so I am not sure what you are implying. Fine, your coins are all NT jewels that will only increase in value and their window of having a liquid two way market isn't rapidly closing. Happy?
edited for consistency >>
I went to get popcorn and Dang it I missed the cartoon
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>Can someone post a pic of the MS68 and MS69 morgans the OP was talking about? I never knew they had them in that high of a grade........ >>
The 96-s was up for auction a few years ago, so I'd check out the Heritage archives.
<< <i>Hey crypto79, I don't even know you and I don't like you from reading your commits and "opinions" towards Shane (Kryptonitecomics)
If you believe that Shane's avatar coin, the 1883 Morgan, is AT then I have no respect for you. That's an obvious bag toned Morgan!
And you need to take up a different hobby if you can't tell the difference.
But anyway.....
With the reverse blue toned morgan JZrarities posted.
Here's a '57p I pulled from a double mint set. Looks very similar...
I am going to go out on a limb a take a guess which side of the fence you fall. Fyi Plastic is a petroleum distillate and esp the older stuff was full of hydrocarbons which is what cause that color. PVC causes a color too but what ever. My whole point was that any color other the dark brown- black is a reaction to something other than air(hydrogen). Which is call it what you will but miss handling wither it is chemicals left over treating fibers in the making of mint bags or taco bell napkins doesn't matter. With your logic green slimy PVC coins are NT.
Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS?
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
Yes, it is all luck of the draw.
That's the beauty of it!
<< <i>
<< <i>Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
Yes, it is all luck of the draw.
That's the beauty of it! >>
That is not an intelligent thought out answer. Anyone have logic or science
<< <i>
Real question for you tone experts. If it is a completely natural luck of the draw process, why aren't circulated coins toned like rainbows? The only rainbow cir coins I see are messed with over cleaned ones, Why is it different for MS? >>
I have owned several including Morgans and peace dollars....I could post some if you like including curculated toned Morgans in PCGS holders if it would help?
Or do we not mention the elephant in the room?
Is there a strategy by where members/dealers might enjoy a discount for CoinFacts™ by having it inclusive with membership renewal, so as to avoid the "monthly" charge ? (Of course, I'm just working the counter, David.)
Humbly +1,
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Isn't this thread supposed to be about CoinFacts?
Or do we not mention the elephant in the room? >>
I think the OP knew exactly what he was doing
Time will tell when the other shoe will drop and we find out what this is really all about
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm here for the controversy.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.
Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.
The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.
This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>
This is a valid point, that there was some change in the Mints' technologies and/or procedures between the end of Morgan dollar production in 1904 and the resumption of dollar production in 1921.
The change, whatever it was, gave us milkspots and a surface resistant to rainbow toning. Who knows? Maybe the Mint was trying to prevent toning, knowing as it did that many of the dollars that it struck would end up sitting in their vaults for decades.
I wish that the Emery and Nichols Collections Sale by Bowers and Merena (Nov. 1984) had more color plates. This was a wonderful collection that stayed in a family for three generations. Starting in the mid-1890's they began ordering coins directly from each Mint. In the late 1930's the third generation collector put everything in Wayte Raymond albums, and then died. His widow put the albums into a steamer trunk and stored it in a bank vault until she died in the early 1980s.
I was brought in from ANACS to authenticate the 1804, which unfortunately was an altered date. However, I got to look at everything, and was amazed at the gorgeous toning on the silver after 40+ years in the Raymond albums.
I do not specifically remember the Peace dollar pages. However, if you look at the catalogue you will see many glowing descriptions of toning in the Morgan dollar section, and hardly any mention of toning in the Peace dollar section.
TD >>
ill give you some insight on why the later dates kept getting harder and harder to tone. The mint was trying different planchet dips on the later date morgans, because they wanted to try and stop the toning process from happening, because to them its considered environmental damage (hence why they sold GSA dollars for 15 a piece) BUT they cant stop the toning process all together. that is physically impossible. All metals no matter how resilient they are against the environment will ALWAYS change, just some longer than others.
<< <i>
<< <i>Isn't this thread supposed to be about CoinFacts?
Or do we not mention the elephant in the room? >>
I think the OP knew exactly what he was doing
Time will tell when the other shoe will drop and we find out what this is really all about
MJ >>
Perhaps it is an attempt to justify the recent about face on what PCGS considers NT or AT.
<< <i>Circulated toners:
So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned.
<< <i>
So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well
<< <i>All toning is artificial. The question is whether it
is intentional or inadvertent.
And since there is hardly any way to determine
the intent, or lack therof...
Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the
die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin
has, the farther it should be from MS70.
Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared
by anyone it seems.
~ >>
Actually all toning is natural in that it is a product of the reaction of a silver coin or a silver spoon with the environment in which it gets placed. When the San Francisco mint struck millions of coins in 1880 they put them into canvas bags [which I assume were waterproof] solely for the purpose of storage with no other intended consequences. For this reason, coins from those bags are considered NT.
If a coin that came directly out of the mint in a bag or roll can now be deemed AT then all of the dipped out blast white type coins: Morgans, Peace dollars, Walking Liberty halves, Franklins etc .......then henceforth any white coin that can't be proven to have it's original skin will be considered AU - Artificially Untoned. I would bet that the amount of AU coins vs AT coins would be 50 to 1......funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
Toned coin lovers always have to prove how a coin was stored or what the intent of the owner was when storing the coin while widget collectors are never asked how the coin got so white or stayed untoned for so many decades......thats the biggest double standard in coins.....
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"?
<< <i>
<< <i>
So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well
IF your avatar was a circ toner, it most likely was an uncirc that got put into circ as opposed to a circ coin that actually toned. Put 1,000 au50 Morgans into a bag and in 40 years I bet you won't see toners like yours.
Okay, it looks like the word "artificial" has put
put a few people on their high horse, so let
me change that word, since it makes no
difference to the rest of what I said.
-----
All toning is "tarnish". The question is whether it
is intentional or inadvertent.
And since there is hardly any way to determine
the intent, or lack therof...
Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the
die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin
has, the farther it should be from MS70.
Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared
by anyone it seems.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
So are you talking circulated toners or toned circulators?
It would seem that in order for a coin like your avatar coin to be a circ toner, it would have had to have been released into circulation already toned as opposed to being circulated and then subsequently toned. >>
Not sure what your talking about? My avatar was an MS65....crypto79 asked why circulated coins don't have toning and rainbow colors like the uncirculated morgans and peace dollars.....I was just providing examples of circulated toned coins to show him that indeed these coins due tone in rainbow colors as well
IF your avatar was a circ toner, it most likely was an uncirc that got put into circ as opposed to a circ coin that actually toned. Put 1,000 au50 Morgans into a bag and in 40 years I bet you won't see toners like yours. >>
Not with the full coverage of color and depth of toning becuase they are circulated so the surfaces have been worn away but I bet they would have bands of rainbow toning due to coming into contact with the sulfer laden bag.....why wouldn't they?
<< <i>IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"? >>
Somewhat akin to pornography, it's difficult to define but you know it when you see it.
Think like a grader. You don't know the history of the coin, it just arrives in a flip on your tray. There's no such thing as AT/NT in the middle [of course there is in the extremes] - there's only MA or not MA.
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white.
<< <i>
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>funny how members here only want to talk about the funny business with toned coins when a high percentage of untoned coins are more likely to have been messed with
I suppose it's partially because blast white coins have never sold for 5-10x sheet because of being blast white. >>
Good point. It never made sense to me that some people will pay $1000 for a coin and another $9000 for the tarnish on the same coin. >>
It does to me. Frankly, most white coins do nothing for me - they are interchangeable with every other white specimen out there. But a spectacularly toned specimen is a unique piece of art. For instance, my avatar is the single most spectacular trade dollar most have ever seen [I've heard of another in the private collection of the head of a TPG]. Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one?
<< <i>Isn't it worth paying a significant premium for a coin regarded as one the most desirable in an entire SERIES verses a white one that looks just like any other white one? >>
Possibly, if I really like it and I know it's natural. The problem is that once the "toner premium" reached nosebleed levels, out came the coin doctors and started casting doubt on almost anything with color. Ironically, I suspect a lot of the "color doctoring" they performed was on coins that were dipped once upon a time to reflect a prior market's preference for "blast white."
<< <i>IMO, there's really no distinct line between AT or NT. In the middleground, it's all a matter of whether or not it's market acceptable or not market acceptable. If HRH wants to declare that rainbow toned Peace dollars are no longer market acceptable to PCGS, then more power to him.
Fine. But what is the quality of toning that makes it either "market acceptable or not market acceptable"? >>
It is most likely based on the experience of the person doing the evaluating.
<< <i>If so many of these Morgans are AT how come most of them are in the date range of 1883 thru 1887? Why would coin doctors pick on those dates? I have seen toners from all years but those dates seem to have the most. >>
. Because these are the dates that are known to have colorful toning. If they did it on other dates it would raise questions.
A difference of opinion is what makes a horse race.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
If I had money tied up in toned Peace dollars, and they were graded by PCGS, I'd be quite upset at the statement Mr. Hall made. His own company has been certifying that these toners are natural, now we find out he doesn't agree with his own company's standard? Or is he saying that they're market acceptable but not really NT? That throws a new light on any toner graded by PCGS....What exactly is the meaning here? Or his motivation?
<< <i>My two cents-
If I had money tied up in toned Peace dollars, and they were graded by PCGS, I'd be quite upset at the statement Mr. Hall made. His own company has been certifying that these toners are natural, now we find out he doesn't agree with his own company's standard? Or is he saying that they're market acceptable but not really NT? That throws a new light on any toner graded by PCGS....What exactly is the meaning here? Or his motivation? >>
On the flip side, coming out and hinting that PCGS won't be certifying any more of them makes the ones already in holders a limited supply, now doesn't it?