I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time.
<< <i>now you come out as the pcgs president and say all peace dollars with any other toning then yellow or gold are artificial.
You might want to go back and carefully reread what Mr. Hall said.With all due respect,I don't think Mr. Hall said what you are claiming he said.
Wayne Miller in Textbook is not saying that any Peace dollar seen with rainbow toning has got to have gotten its toning by artificial means either.
The possibility is there that a few Peace dollar planchets somehow escaped the strong acid bath treatment and ended up next to the cloth in the mint bag.If this happened,the Peace dollar would naturally tone in the same fashion as the Morgan Dollar.
I'm speaking for myself here but I consider any toning that a silver dollar might have received after being put in a mint bag soon after being struck and before being removed many years later by person or persons opening the sealed bag is......Natural or NT.
Another possibility is that the mint used bags with different cloth for Peace dollars and 1921 Morgan dollars.Come to think of it,I don't see 1921 Morgans with the rainbow colors of earlier coins either. >>
Mr.Hall's exact words:
<< <i>Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. >>
I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time. >>
AT does not always mean an evil coin doctor. It could have been dipped and not rinced or exsposed to another most likely lquid agent at some point in its days. But the chance of that being "natrual tarnish" which is what I think you are claiming is 0% IMHO. Now I am not calling you coin ugly, I am just saying it didn't get like that by hanging out in a safe deposit box.
Here are a few of my own observations from this most interesting thread:
1) David (HRH), you were correct that you would be stirring up (more than a bit) of controversy 2) What started out as a CoinFacts topical thread, has been redirected into a Toned Coin topical thread 3) The discussion in this thread has given me more of an appreciation of the relative scarcity of Colorfully Toned Peace Dollars 4) Collectors of all types of coins are very passionate about what they collect 5) Collectors who pay high premiums for attractive colorfully toned coins care signifcantly about market perceptions and TPGS acceptance of whether or not the origin of the toning is considered natural or artificial
Courtesy post of Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan Dollar - PCGS MS-66
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
What is the point toners are trying to make, If anyone saw a 1794 dollar that looked like their coins everyone would know the coin had been doctored. Yes 100 years isn't trivial but were talking the same metal people. Look at all the blue and purple seated stuff out there. Reaction to being cleaned(dipped) over the years. Doesn't mean it isn't the finest known or that it won't have great eye appeal. All it means is it isn't 100% original. In the current market place extra value is assigned to originality and that smacks in the face of the premium that people paid for their Toners.
Yes there are colorful peace dollars out there but of all of the coins that have an UNBROKEN chain of custody and are known original from the mint to current day; little to none have ever displayed the color you speak of. That leaves all of the other coins out there as unknown commodities.
I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time. >>
AT does not always mean an evil coin doctor. It could have been dipped and not rinced or exsposed to another most likely lquid agent at some point in its days. But the chance of that being "natrual tarnish" which is what I think you are claiming is 0% IMHO. Now I am not calling you coin ugly, I am just saying it didn't get like that by hanging out in a safe deposit box. >>
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It appears that we can simply agree to disagree on this matter.
.......all these comments got me wondering. what causes toning on SILVERWARE? in general, the stuff isn't stored in paper rolls or wrapped in taco napkins or made of 'special' silver YET it tones! what's up with THAT!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>.......all these comments got me wondering. what causes toning on SILVERWARE? in general, the stuff isn't stored in paper rolls or wrapped in taco napkins or made of 'special' silver YET it tones! what's up with THAT! >>
Tone is slang for Tarnish Tarnish is a product of a chemical reaction between a metal and a nonmetal or compound, especially oxygen and sulfur dioxide. It is usually an oxide, the product of oxidation. Tarnish in the case of silver is a word used to describe Silver Sulfide formation Silver Sulfide(Ag2S) is formed by a reaction to Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S) Hydrogen Sulfide is a naturally(and unnaturally) occurring in the atmosphere, hence Air So in a nut shell Silver Sulfide is formed by contact exposed with the air(unavoidable) Silver Sulfide is BLACK
"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."
Well,what appears above is exactly what Mr. Hall said.
If a new look appears, it's artificial to me.This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong."
Indeed,the appearance of rainbow toned Peace dollars is considered to be a new look for many of us old schoolers. This new look is seen by many an old schooler as artificial or not natural,however one prefers to think about it.
For the record, I don't think the statement I just made,seen directly above this one, is wrong.In fact, I think my statement,as it stands,is absolutely correct.
edited to add the word "rainbow" to my statement..."the appearance of rainbow toned Peace dollars is considered to be a new look..." The old and familiar look for the old school people? The Peace dollar,if it has toning,will have light yellow,brown,and gold colors.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something??? >>
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something??? >>
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions. >>
I am not attacking him...certainly not for his opinions....did you follow the link he posted which shows a fat guy from the simpsons with some words that were supposed to be me talking?....If you didn't then go check it out....that was childish and that was a personal attack. I weas simply stating the obvious that making a derogetory cartoon about another forum member you don't agree with is childish.
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something??? >>
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions. >>
I am not attacking him...certainly not for his opinions....did you follow the link he posted which shows a fat guy from the simpsons with some words that were supposed to be me talking?....If you didn't then go check it out....that was childish and that was a personal attack. I weas simply stating the obvious that making a derogetory cartoon about another forum member you don't agree with is childish.
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I did not see the link but my point is that regardless of what someone else posts, I think that responders which want to question a posters age should rethink what they are doing. Such posts are an attempt at "discrediting" the poster since no other arguments or statements come to mind or seem to work. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but I would expect much more from you.
A simple agreement to disagree would have been acceptable.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
When someone edits a picture to make it seem like me talking about not being able to see certain body parts I naturally assume they are children becuase that is childish behavior. If we are discussing coins I could care less if the person is 5 or 55. I you expect me to not defend myself from personal attacks that surely you expect too much of me. I am a lowly toned coin collector who is used to coming under fire about my opinions.....that I can handle....persoanl attacks.....not going to stand for that
Well, I'm new here but not new to toned coins by any means. I find it funny the president makes such bold claims when he has no clue what he's talking about. Bold claims like this is why lawsuits are filed, he has no evidence to support his claim and I'm sure he won't be able to tell any of us how they AT peace dollars. I also find it funny that even after this article was posted that your own graders don't agree with you mr hall, I sent in two monster toned peace dollars and they both graded. So unless you can tell me how my peace dollars toned after years then I consider your credibility a big ZERO. I'll give you a hint where I kept them. (wayte Raymond page since the 70s )
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I edit most of my posts for errors go back and look. You're a weird guy, I would never edit a post because of your opinion so I am not sure what you are implying. Fine, your coins are all NT jewels that will only increase in value and their window of having a liquid two way market isn't rapidly closing. Happy?
<< <i>Well, I'm new here but not new to toned coins by any means. I find it funny the president makes such bold claims when he has no clue what he's talking about. Bold claims like this is why lawsuits are filed, he has no evidence to support his claim and I'm sure he won't be able to tell any of us how they AT peace dollars. I also find it funny that even after this article was posted that your own graders don't agree with you mr hall, I sent in two monster toned peace dollars and they both graded. So unless you can tell me how my peace dollars toned after years then I consider your credibility a big ZERO. I'll give you a hint where I kept them. (wayte Raymond page since the 70s ) >>
I think it is a little rude to pick a fight with ones host.
Here's a Toned 1921 Peace Dollar from my collection as an example for our discussion purposes. Toning is subdued pastel shades of pink with some hints of blue. This is not brightly toned, but nonetheless is attractive to me as a 2-sided toner.
I do not know enough about the provenance to know how it became to look this way, however I do like the way it looks.
1921 PCGS MS-63 Toned Peace Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I am pretty certain in the 60's 70's & 80's Peace Dollars were not really collectible
What an amazing statement to make.And with such conviction.
A naturally rainbow toned Peace dollar would be extremely rare.So what if the first thing most of us old schoolers think is "artificially toned" when we see one with rainbow colors?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Is a Peace dollar that has been deliberately stored in the middle of a mint bag to avoid becoming toned any more artifically untoned than a coin that was stored in an album for 50 years with the intention of appreciating it as a collectible is artificially toned? (Did that make sense?)
<< <i>Is a Peace dollar that has been deliberately stored in the middle of a mint bag to avoid becoming toned any more artifically untoned than a coin that was stored in an album for 50 years with the intention of appreciating it as a collectible is artificially toned? (Did that make sense?) >>
Best point made in a few post on the subject. I would cross with it was mostly the GSA bags of the early Morgan's as all of the blue pack peace dollars I have are grey or gold or blast white. I think it has nothing to do with color as it has it do with Value>originality>eye appeal. The core of the opinion was that peace dollars if left alone won't tone overly pretty. By default saying if you have a high color dollar it isn't original or on its first skin which in turn hurts the value of it. I have seen dipped peace dollars put in paramount like holder turn crazy colors. Like with classic cars, a restored car sometimes looks better then new but it's not original
Crypto I think it is worse when someone who can't explain himself, tell me my coins are AT is equally if not more rude. He gave a rude OPINION, so I gave a rude answer
<< <i>Crypto I think it is worse when someone who can't explain himself, tell me my coins are AT is equally if not more rude. He gave a rude OPINION, so I gave a rude answer >>
In the "house" of the person whom you accuse of rudeness, I should add.
Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want
<< <i>Well as time goes by,Everyone adapts.Its part of our human nature,Adapt to our environment, or cease to exist .That's the harsh reality of nature.Evolution. If people don't evolve, I personally call that Ignorance.I dont want to sound rude.But if a mind is not open,it is trapped within itself.If it is trapped within itself, I feel it can only exist with boundaries.Like a wild animal trapped in a cage.Continue to lock up those wild animals,they either adapt or die.
We create Zoo's to show off the animals to our future generations,because we are killing them too rapidly in the wild.We have to recreate an exact replica of their environment.Some species would rather go extinct than be trapped.Would you live to be a caged animal in a bubble.would you continue to reproduce to let your kids live trapped behind glass.
There comes a time in our lives,where we close off our minds,& become "set in our ways" that stubbornness will only hurt the participator. >>
What the H.E. double hockey sticks are you talking about???!!!?!???
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
You sir, like all of us, are a guest here. Act like one.
I think David Hall has probably forgot more about coins than most of us know. I think when the "MAN" offers his insights we should listen. Pretty much all the old schoolguy's agree with him.... I really think some hear should pay attention when given info like this and the comments that were made are very disrespectful. Most here know that the colorful coins really only got into PCGS as they became market acceptable. The known toning patterns were alway's slabbable though and we know that too. I think Mr. Halls comments about those two Peace dollars sums up the whole toned coin market- "maybe At and like 50/50 on it. Another words nobody really knows for sure but in his experience these coins did not exist in the past.
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
They teach people as 1L's that the public's perception of free speech and it's limits is often misguided. And it is not nearly the absolute people think it is.
<< <i>I think David Hall has probably forgot more about coins than most of us know. I think when the "MAN" offers his insights we should listen. Pretty much all the old schoolguy's agree with him.... I really think some hear should pay attention when given info like this and the comments that were made are very disrespectful. Most here know that the colorful coins really only got into PCGS as they became market acceptable. The known toning patterns were alway's slabbable though and we know that too. I think Mr. Halls comments about those two Peace dollars sums up the whole toned coin market- "maybe At and like 50/50 on it. Another words nobody really knows for sure but in his experience these coins did not exist in the past. >>
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
It's so funny -- and sadly all too common -- when people play the "freedom of speech" card in a privately owned venue. It doesn't matter whether or not you think I was a jackass to you; if you start insulting me on my property, no amount of "freedom of speech" can prevent me from demanding that you leave my property.
Is a Peace dollar that has been deliberately stored in the middle of a mint bag to avoid becoming toned any more artifically untoned than a coin that was stored in an album for 50 years with the intention of appreciating it as a collectible is artificially toned? (Did that make sense?)
I don't think an absolute 100% iron-clad definition of artificial or natural is possible.There is no such thing as the perfect definition of a word,in other words.
I think "original" is a better word to describe a coin that has acquired its toning from an album.Strictly speaking,for silver coins,"natural" is blast white as struck.
If we can all accept that the word "artificial" is not really all that bad a word if the context that the word is being used in can be understood...well,that would be major progress in my opinion.
I ask the question again,"does anyone here think Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan dollar got its toning from residing in a mint bag for many decades?"
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>I ask the question again,"does anyone here think Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan dollar got its toning from residing in a mint bag for many decades?" >>
Of course it did where else would it have picked up the lovely shade of Eggplant? All jokes aside it is a good looking coin with pristine fields that was put aside early in its life due to its high end nature. As it went from sale to sale it was most likely freshened up a bit with a light bath leaving exposed silver till it found a consistent home where it devolved that new skin over time till it came back to market with that look. Doctored? No, NT? No, AT? No it is just what it is-IMHO
if you start insulting me on my property, no amount of "freedom of speech" can prevent me from demanding that you leave my property.
I would add that "freedom of speech" is not really what most people think it is.For example,in the workplace,the employee is well-advised to leave his First Amendment right to free speech at the door.
Need a better example,dinky-count posters?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>I would probably get bammed if I started a thread like this. >>
I had the same thoughts in my head RYK
I was wondering if HRH would have his own thread poofed or locked
Then I remembered just how smart HRH is and I think he knew exactly what he was doing
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Crypto I think it is worse when someone who can't explain himself, tell me my coins are AT is equally if not more rude. He gave a rude OPINION, so I gave a rude answer >>
His "opinion" was no where near as "rude" or forthright as your response.
The president and founder of PCGS is certainly entitled to his opinion.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I think this discussion has become a snowball effect of opinions & would rather discuss something more positive. >>
Obviously not all the PCGS graders share David's opinion or else there would be no Peace toners in any PCGS slab but too many folks take an "opinion" as an established "policy" or a "personal" insult.
Where's that damned flackjacket!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'd actually love to hear Sunnywood's take on the Peace dollar brouhaha
in addition to his 1921 Morgan
I don't know anyone personally more knowledgeable on the subject
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time.
<< <i>now you come out as the pcgs president and say all peace dollars with any other toning then yellow or gold are artificial.
You might want to go back and carefully reread what Mr. Hall said.With all due respect,I don't think Mr. Hall said what you are claiming he said.
Wayne Miller in Textbook is not saying that any Peace dollar seen with rainbow toning has got to have gotten its toning by artificial means either.
The possibility is there that a few Peace dollar planchets somehow escaped the strong acid bath treatment and ended up next to the cloth in the mint bag.If this happened,the Peace dollar would naturally tone in the same fashion as the Morgan Dollar.
I'm speaking for myself here but I consider any toning that a silver dollar might have received after being put in a mint bag soon after being struck and before being removed many years later by person or persons opening the sealed bag is......Natural or NT.
Another possibility is that the mint used bags with different cloth for Peace dollars and 1921 Morgan dollars.Come to think of it,I don't see 1921 Morgans with the rainbow colors of earlier coins either. >>
Mr.Hall's exact words:
<< <i>Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. >>
So yes he said exactly that....
<< <i>Crypto79,
I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time. >>
AT does not always mean an evil coin doctor. It could have been dipped and not rinced or exsposed to another most likely lquid agent at some point in its days. But the chance of that being "natrual tarnish" which is what I think you are claiming is 0% IMHO. Now I am not calling you coin ugly, I am just saying it didn't get like that by hanging out in a safe deposit box.
1) David (HRH), you were correct that you would be stirring up (more than a bit) of controversy
2) What started out as a CoinFacts topical thread, has been redirected into a Toned Coin topical thread
3) The discussion in this thread has given me more of an appreciation of the relative scarcity of Colorfully Toned Peace Dollars
4) Collectors of all types of coins are very passionate about what they collect
5) Collectors who pay high premiums for attractive colorfully toned coins care signifcantly about market perceptions and TPGS acceptance of whether or not the origin of the toning is considered natural or artificial
Courtesy post of Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan Dollar - PCGS MS-66
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Yes there are colorful peace dollars out there but of all of the coins that have an UNBROKEN chain of custody and are known original from the mint to current day; little to none have ever displayed the color you speak of. That leaves all of the other coins out there as unknown commodities.
<< <i>
<< <i>Crypto79,
I just realized you bashed my avatar without having a clue what you are talking about. My avatar is actually just a common date morgan that resides in a rattler pcgs holder. I was unaware there was a huge craze for toning in the pcgs rattler days. While the image of my avatar is juiced the coin is far from artificially toned. Simply based on the holder alone there would be no reason to artificially tone that coin considering the year it was hodlered and the very small value and no premium for toned coins at that time. >>
AT does not always mean an evil coin doctor. It could have been dipped and not rinced or exsposed to another most likely lquid agent at some point in its days. But the chance of that being "natrual tarnish" which is what I think you are claiming is 0% IMHO. Now I am not calling you coin ugly, I am just saying it didn't get like that by hanging out in a safe deposit box. >>
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It appears that we can simply agree to disagree on this matter.
.......all these comments got me wondering. what causes toning on SILVERWARE? in general, the stuff isn't stored in paper rolls or wrapped in taco napkins or made of 'special' silver YET it tones! what's up with THAT!
<< <i>.......all these comments got me wondering. what causes toning on SILVERWARE? in general, the stuff isn't stored in paper rolls or wrapped in taco napkins or made of 'special' silver YET it tones! what's up with THAT!
Tone is slang for Tarnish
Tarnish is a product of a chemical reaction between a metal and a nonmetal or compound, especially oxygen and sulfur dioxide. It is usually an oxide, the product of oxidation.
Tarnish in the case of silver is a word used to describe Silver Sulfide formation
Silver Sulfide(Ag2S) is formed by a reaction to Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S)
Hydrogen Sulfide is a naturally(and unnaturally) occurring in the atmosphere, hence Air
So in a nut shell Silver Sulfide is formed by contact exposed with the air(unavoidable)
Silver Sulfide is BLACK
of the bag that the coins were stored in. Length of time stores and conditions
stored in. Also the process of annealing the planchets the manner that alloys
were added to the melt, the pressure of the striking dies causing changes in
the surface of the coin. All of the above could and would make a difference between
what we see on the Morgan Dollar vrs the Peace Dollar. Finally Mr Hall, controversies
are frowned upon on this Forum. We have been trained to be bland, milk toast types
of folk meek in conduct, mild in comment and subdued if not tranquilized in spirit.
Camelot
Well,what appears above is exactly what Mr. Hall said.
If a new look appears, it's artificial to me.This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong."
Indeed,the appearance of rainbow toned Peace dollars is considered to be a new look for many of us old schoolers. This new look is seen by many an old schooler as artificial or not natural,however one prefers to think about it.
For the record, I don't think the statement I just made,seen directly above this one, is wrong.In fact, I think my statement,as it stands,is absolutely correct.
edited to add the word "rainbow" to my statement..."the appearance of rainbow toned Peace dollars is considered to be a new look..."
The old and familiar look for the old school people? The Peace dollar,if it has toning,will have light yellow,brown,and gold colors.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something???
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions.
The name is LEE!
Georgeous coin!
Is there anyone here who thinks this coin got its colors while residing in a mint bag for a few decades?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something???
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions. >>
I am not attacking him...certainly not for his opinions....did you follow the link he posted which shows a fat guy from the simpsons with some words that were supposed to be me talking?....If you didn't then go check it out....that was childish and that was a personal attack. I weas simply stating the obvious that making a derogetory cartoon about another forum member you don't agree with is childish.
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something???
Shane I see no reason to personally attack Crypto over his opinions. >>
I am not attacking him...certainly not for his opinions....did you follow the link he posted which shows a fat guy from the simpsons with some words that were supposed to be me talking?....If you didn't then go check it out....that was childish and that was a personal attack. I weas simply stating the obvious that making a derogetory cartoon about another forum member you don't agree with is childish.
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I did not see the link but my point is that regardless of what someone else posts, I think that responders which want to question a posters age should rethink what they are doing. Such posts are an attempt at "discrediting" the poster since no other arguments or statements come to mind or seem to work. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but I would expect much more from you.
A simple agreement to disagree would have been acceptable.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
Oh now I see....he thought better of the personal attack and edited his post.....so no one else could see what prompted my response.
Edited: Thursday October 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM by crypto79 >>
I edit most of my posts for errors go back and look. You're a weird guy, I would never edit a post because of your opinion so I am not sure what you are implying. Fine, your coins are all NT jewels that will only increase in value and their window of having a liquid two way market isn't rapidly closing. Happy?
edited for consistency
<< <i>Well, I'm new here but not new to toned coins by any means. I find it funny the president makes such bold claims when he has no clue what he's talking about. Bold claims like this is why lawsuits are filed, he has no evidence to support his claim and I'm sure he won't be able to tell any of us how they AT peace dollars. I also find it funny that even after this article was posted that your own graders don't agree with you mr hall, I sent in two monster toned peace dollars and they both graded. So unless you can tell me how my peace dollars toned after years then I consider your credibility a big ZERO. I'll give you a hint where I kept them. (wayte Raymond page since the 70s ) >>
I think it is a little rude to pick a fight with ones host.
I do not know enough about the provenance to know how it became to look this way, however I do like the way it looks.
1921 PCGS MS-63 Toned Peace Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
What an amazing statement to make.And with such conviction.
A naturally rainbow toned Peace dollar would be extremely rare.So what if the first thing most of us old schoolers think is "artificially toned" when we see one with rainbow colors?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Is a Peace dollar that has been deliberately stored in the middle of a mint bag to avoid becoming toned any more artifically untoned than a coin that was stored in an album for 50 years with the intention of appreciating it as a collectible is artificially toned? (Did that make sense?) >>
Best point made in a few post on the subject. I would cross with it was mostly the GSA bags of the early Morgan's as all of the blue pack peace dollars I have are grey or gold or blast white. I think it has nothing to do with color as it has it do with Value>originality>eye appeal. The core of the opinion was that peace dollars if left alone won't tone overly pretty. By default saying if you have a high color dollar it isn't original or on its first skin which in turn hurts the value of it. I have seen dipped peace dollars put in paramount like holder turn crazy colors. Like with classic cars, a restored car sometimes looks better then new but it's not original
<< <i>Crypto I think it is worse when someone who can't explain himself, tell me my coins are AT is equally if not more rude. He gave a rude OPINION, so I gave a rude answer >>
In the "house" of the person whom you accuse of rudeness, I should add.
<< <i>Well as time goes by,Everyone adapts.Its part of our human nature,Adapt to our environment, or cease to exist .That's the harsh reality of nature.Evolution.
If people don't evolve, I personally call that Ignorance.I dont want to sound rude.But if a mind is not open,it is trapped within itself.If it is trapped within itself,
I feel it can only exist with boundaries.Like a wild animal trapped in a cage.Continue to lock up those wild animals,they either adapt or die.
We create Zoo's to show off the animals to our future generations,because we are killing them too rapidly in the wild.We have to recreate an exact replica of their
environment.Some species would rather go extinct than be trapped.Would you live to be a caged animal in a bubble.would you continue to reproduce to let your kids live
trapped behind glass.
There comes a time in our lives,where we close off our minds,& become "set in our ways" that stubbornness will only hurt the participator. >>
What the H.E. double hockey sticks are you talking about???!!!?!???
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
You sir, like all of us, are a guest here. Act like one.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Most here know that the colorful coins really only got into PCGS as they became market acceptable. The known toning patterns were alway's slabbable though and we know that too. I think Mr. Halls comments about those two Peace dollars sums up the whole toned coin market- "maybe At and like 50/50 on it. Another words nobody really knows for sure but in his experience these coins did not exist in the past.
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
They teach people as 1L's that the public's perception of free speech and it's limits is often misguided. And it is not nearly the absolute people think it is.
<< <i>I think David Hall has probably forgot more about coins than most of us know. I think when the "MAN" offers his insights we should listen. Pretty much all the old schoolguy's agree with him.... I really think some hear should pay attention when given info like this and the comments that were made are very disrespectful.
Most here know that the colorful coins really only got into PCGS as they became market acceptable. The known toning patterns were alway's slabbable though and we know that too. I think Mr. Halls comments about those two Peace dollars sums up the whole toned coin market- "maybe At and like 50/50 on it. Another words nobody really knows for sure but in his experience these coins did not exist in the past. >>
+1,
<< <i>Right, so it's ok for someone to insult people just because they built the place? Gee what part of the world do you live in? Last I checked it's a free country And I am allowed to say what I want >>
It's so funny -- and sadly all too common -- when people play the "freedom of speech" card in a privately owned venue. It doesn't matter whether or not you think I was a jackass to you; if you start insulting me on my property, no amount of "freedom of speech" can prevent me from demanding that you leave my property.
I don't think an absolute 100% iron-clad definition of artificial or natural is possible.There is no such thing as the perfect definition of a word,in other words.
I think "original" is a better word to describe a coin that has acquired its toning from an album.Strictly speaking,for silver coins,"natural" is blast white as struck.
If we can all accept that the word "artificial" is not really all that bad a word if the context that the word is being used in can be understood...well,that would be major progress in my opinion.
I ask the question again,"does anyone here think Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan dollar got its toning from residing in a mint bag for many decades?"
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>I ask the question again,"does anyone here think Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan dollar got its toning from residing in a mint bag for many decades?" >>
Of course it did where else would it have picked up the lovely shade of Eggplant? All jokes aside it is a good looking coin with pristine fields that was put aside early in its life due to its high end nature. As it went from sale to sale it was most likely freshened up a bit with a light bath leaving exposed silver till it found a consistent home where it devolved that new skin over time till it came back to market with that look. Doctored? No, NT? No, AT? No it is just what it is-IMHO
I would add that "freedom of speech" is not really what most people think it is.For example,in the workplace,the employee is well-advised to leave his First Amendment right to free speech at the door.
Need a better example,dinky-count posters?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>I would probably get bammed if I started a thread like this.
I had the same thoughts in my head RYK
I was wondering if HRH would have his own thread poofed or locked
Then I remembered just how smart HRH is and I think he knew exactly what he was doing
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Crypto I think it is worse when someone who can't explain himself, tell me my coins are AT is equally if not more rude. He gave a rude OPINION, so I gave a rude answer >>
His "opinion" was no where near as "rude" or forthright as your response.
The president and founder of PCGS is certainly entitled to his opinion.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I think this discussion has become a snowball effect of opinions & would rather discuss something more positive. >>
Obviously not all the PCGS graders share David's opinion or else there would be no Peace toners in any PCGS slab but too many folks take an "opinion" as an established "policy" or a "personal" insult.
Where's that damned flackjacket!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Need a better example,dinky-count posters?
Why is post-count relevant in this or any discussion?
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Do you think Sunnywood's 1921-D Morgan Dollar got its toning from residing in a mint bag for many decades?
I need a few opinions about this. Only then will I reveal my startling conclusion.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
in addition to his 1921 Morgan
I don't know anyone personally more knowledgeable on the subject
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......