<< <i>time to seek a lawyers help YaHa, but I'd say the coins should be recognized by the court as your property. It would then be a matter of getting them back.
with a nod to the pres. DW, I still must reference the alleged misdeeds and hope that the coins used as collateral were wholly NGE's and any alledged misdeeds involved only those. The way the article reads, it does.
planning any vacations in their area? Know some trustworthy power-of-attorney-able people around there who can pick them up for you?
Hmmmm.... there must be others in your similar situation. Seek Them Out. Find out and contact the court appointed trustee.
I feel your pain. >>
Well I had a chat with ICG today. Icg is in no way related to this lawsuit or takeover.. I will be getting my coins one way or the other soon, very soon, promised by a email also.. That's all I can say about that.. Mark Jaffe and his Brother do own ICG and another company, but as I was told today ICG will be up and running and is doing quite well..
I think though it might hurt their business down the road with this negativity happening right now.. I was also told this was a witchhunt attack and NGE will be vindicated for any wrong doing..
That remains to be seen. I just want my coins back..
P.S. Thanks to PCGS and Don Willis letting us chat about issues in the different Coin sectors of Nusimatics..
<< <i>Ecountering business issues and filing for bankruptcy is an everyday occurance and happens to a lot of people with the best intentions.
For anyone on this forum to speculate on the principals motives or character or anything beyond that is uncalled for.
Let's have a civil and respectful conversation. >>
Don, with no disrespect intended, many people with less than honorable intentions also use bankruptcy as a means to screw their creditors. I don't have enough facts to judge the intentions of the party / parties under discussion, at present. The related motives of the principals here will be revealed in due time.
A few years ago, a client who didn't feel like paying his taxes stiffed the IRS for $160,000. Filed BK; it was perfectly legal. A number of coin dealers go out on a limb, file BK in bad times and resurface when the market improves.
I can think of several dealers mentioned on this forum who paid for coins with bad checks (I assume this was intentional, but I didn't know the guilty parties, so I can't say, for sure). I personally know of another dealer who gave IOUs for gold bullion coins, took the clients' money and never made good on said IOUs. We've also discussed Tom Noe, and Stanford Coins on these forms.
To reiterate, I don't have the facts about this particular set of circumstances, so I will withhold judgement until I do. However, it seems clear that our industry has its share of unsavory characters.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I've talked to dealers about NGE and while most agree they are an important company that does a lot of business, especially in gold coins, they mostly agree that NGE is often times hard to deal with, won't always honor their buy prices and are extremely slow with sending payment.
I agree that we shouldn't pass judgement until all the facts in this mess are known but I do think a 28,000 square foot house entirely built with marble and granite is a little too decadant for a person's own good.
The website I googled didn't identify the Owners, but stated that Gainesville Coin was located on Dale Mabry Hiway, the same hiway listed earlier in this thread as NGE's address. Shag
When I was recently in Tampa we went to this really good steak place I think was on Dale Mabry and they had cows statues out in front......really nice place but I forget the name.
<< <i>The website I googled didn't identify the Owners, but stated that Gainesville Coin was located on Dale Mabry Hiway, the same hiway listed earlier in this thread as NGE's address. Shag >>
Very interesting.
FWIW, they are not the same location, but about a mile from each other. Wonder if they are related. Anyone know who's behind Gainesville Coins?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..
What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys.. >>
I am 6' 4' and 250# and live in Southern California. If this happened to me I would be at their front door with a baseball bat pounding on the door no matter where they were located.
Regarding Gainesville, their management advised fellow CCE dealers of the following today:
"On Friday, July 24, 2009, National Gold Exchange, Inc. in Tampa, Florida filed a Chapter 11 Petition in Bankruptcy Court in the Middle District of Florida. Gainesville Coins, Inc. is a company located in Tampa, Florida that has no relationship to National Gold Exchange. Gainesville Coins has not filed bankruptcy, is not being audited, and is not under any investigation. Gainesville is conducting business as usual. Any rumors to the contrary are untrue and completely unfounded. Thank you, Joe, Mike, Corey and the rest of the Gainesville Coins Team"
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
wondercoin: I am surprised that the bank and/or the newspaper made the comments about the "auditing" of NGE, the house (that was purchased 5 YEARS ago) etc,, etc.
Isn't it normal for the lending bank to observe a code of silence and to just work behind the scene?
<< <i>"The bank said the audit uncovered a shortfall, which, combined with recent bounced checks floated by National Gold Exchange, raised suspicions."
Those bankers are sharp! They picked up on the fact that bounced checks can be a harbinger of business difficulties. >>
Now, if they could only figured a out that you can't write a 500K mortgage for a guy who only makes 30K a year, we are in the clear on this national collapse!
Someone asks for it... someone gets it. I think this one deserves two!
My condolences to those who will unfortunately end up paying for this fiasco... whoever they are.
Steve
U.S. Air Force Security Forces Retired
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
If as the bank claims he converted corporate assets to finance the purchase and construction on his mansion then the Florida Bankruptcy laws may not shelter his house. I am not an attorney and would never dream of playing one on TV but its hard for me to imagine that even in Florida if you convert business assets for personal gain that you can then claim the asset falls under bankruptcy protection. Of course the bank would have to prove that he did this. And yes we are speculating , that's what everyone does until the facts come out and even when they do speculation continues.
During my experience as a commercial loan officer I saw this happen many times, not just when a company was experiencing difficulties, but even when they were not. Some guys just have to spend to match their ego.
A question I have is why the bank wasn't smart enough to insist on a third party depository institution to keep the collateral against their loan. Poor business judgement on their part.
I have done business with Mark Yaffe and his company at major shows. They handle some great gold coins.
Personally I like him.
It sounds like he over bought/leverged on a home and has been scrambling to keep up since the crash in real estate prices. Poor judgemnt on his part but quite a common story across the country.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
If the coins/gold in question was inventory used as collateral, they couldn't use a 3rd party to hold it. They could, however, have required periodic (like quarterly) 3rd party audits of the inventory. Inventory games happen in lots of businesses but show up more in bad times. During a recession 10-15 years ago, some banks here figured out that one of the largest car dealers in our area had floorplanned their inventory 3 times, with 3 different banks. This year the largest dealership shut down with rumors that the dealer had been borrowing from the auto place to keep other businesses alive and several hundred floorplanned cars "disappeared".
It's a shame he didn't follow his own company's motto and invest in real gold rather than real estate, paper assets, etc. An article linked over on the PM forum states that NGE lost over $800K last year in gold futures. Huh? Coin dealers playing with paper gold on margin? What's next, gold derivatives through JPM or GS?
This incident could hurt a lot of other innocent people who happened to be involved with NGE transactions just at the most inopportune time. So, who's next? And there will be others. Just another wake up call to be careful with whom you do business with. It may have nothing to do with a person's character but that doesn't matter if you get caught in the web. After having lost 5 figures to Beavertown's 1990's bankruptcy on consigned coins I had my wake up call. And the ironic part is that they get to come back into the business with a clean slate.
An article linked over on the PM forum states that NGE lost over $800K last year in gold futures. Huh? Coin dealers playing with paper gold on margin?
NGE carried a big physical inventory of gold at all times. Given the rise in gold bullion in the past year, hedging just a portion of their inventory exposure to the bullion market could easily account for the 800K in losses. Of course, the physical inventory would have appreciated even more than 800K.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree with Andy in that hedging gold inventory is NOT a risky proposition and in fact is sound money management. They could have been making a fortune on their physical holdings while carrying a loss on their futures. Of course they could have been "Texas hedging" wherein they are long physical gold AND long futures. Then, even in a minor correction, they can take large losses.
Who knows? But we really should wait until the facts are known.
I am concerned that NGE financiers might get antsy and call loans of other dealers or cut credit lines. That would have a contraction effect on the market I would suspect.
<< <i>I agree with Andy in that hedging gold inventory is NOT a risky proposition and in fact is sound money management. They could have been making a fortune on their physical holdings while carrying a loss on their futures. Of course they could have been "Texas hedging" wherein they are long physical gold AND long futures. Then, even in a minor correction, they can take large losses.
Who knows? But we really should wait until the facts are known.
I am concerned that NGE financiers might get antsy and call loans of other dealers or cut credit lines. That would have a contraction effect on the market I would suspect.
Anyone know about any large exposures to NGE? >>
Why does it matter if the facts are known? Fact is they are heavily in debt and smoe poor basstird/s are gonna end up eating it for them. If they aren't guility of wrongdoing then one has to ask "How could someone so dumb survive in business for so long"?
I really wonder how much Gold of anykind these brothers have hid... I do think after the smoke is cleared this company will be back up and running like deer berries in the fields on Nebraska.. I wish these guys the best of luck..
I just zillowed his house. Zillow gives it a value of $5.94 million. If he has a $25 million mortgage on it, someone might be looking at a short sale... I hope Zillow is wrong.
NGE carried a big physical inventory of gold at all times. Given the rise in gold bullion in the past year, hedging just a portion of their inventory exposure to the bullion market could easily account for the 800K in losses. Of course, the physical inventory would have appreciated even more than 800K.
I would buy the "Tampa hedging" strategy mentioned by JPKinla. The "expected" profits in gold in 2008 were probably too hard to pass up. It was after all....a "sure thing." The margin calls from August-October 2008 probably took a lot of people down. A gold dealer going bankrupt in a gold bull market? That takes some effort and excessive risk-taking, not hedging. But the facts will come out one way or the other. Considering the leverage in the futures is about 15 to 1, $800,000 seems like a lot of money to lose in hedges to protect simple physical bullion inventory. With the massive drop in the gold price from mid-year to November, I would have expected them to profit on their hedges, not lose $800K. And over the course of 2008 the pog only changed $20/oz. Inventory heavy in numismatic gold doesn't correlate well to using hedging via the gold price. How do you hedge a proof $3 gold piece or a wire rim high relief Saint with gold futures?
I've been looking over the filed documents of the case... and assuredly this has really hurt some unsuspecting dealers and other unsecured creditors.
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders.
<< <i>I've been looking over the filed documents of the case... and assuredly this has really hurt some unsuspecting dealers and other unsecured creditors.
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders. >>
Is this online, and if so do you have a link, please?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I've been looking over the filed documents of the case... and assuredly this has really hurt some unsuspecting dealers and other unsecured creditors.
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders. >>
Is this online, and if so do you have a link, please? >>
It is online, but it really took some digging last night to figure out how to get to them.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system... you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)... it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information.
<< <i>It is online, but it really took some digging last night to figure out how to get to them.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system... you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)... it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
<< <i>It is online, but it really took some digging last night to figure out how to get to them.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system... you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)... it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
Thanks for the info, but I don't like to give irresponsible people my cc number........
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<<While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
<< <i><<While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
Innocent or not too bright? >>
It's not my concern, but if I were a dealer (or collector) headed to the ANA to sell coins, I would want to know whose checks may be a little riskier than they were a month ago.
Can you imagin what would have happened if they were at the ANA All the possiable bad checks and the ripple effect that could have had? >>
Dealers being left "holding the bag" of millions of dollars of bad checks unfortunately isn't anything unprecedented. It happened during the FUN convention in 2007.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Can you imagin what would have happened if they were at the ANA All the possiable bad checks and the ripple effect that could have had? >>
Dealers being left "holding the bag" of millions of dollars of bad checks unfortunately isn't anything unprecedented. It happened during the FUN convention in 2007. >>
While this may have been true then, the overall health of the coin market is not as strong now. In addition, in 2007, the credit lines were large and freeflowing. Today, any midlevel dealer who gets hit with $100k in bad checks may have little or no recourse. Multiply that throughout the industry and you have significant problems.
I took a look at the list. The amounts owed the top 20 creditors totals a little over $50 million. It takes an outstanding amount of $90k to make this top 20 list. In addition to Sovereign at $35.1 milliion, several other banks, a mortgage company and Amex are included and are collectively owed $7.6 million. There were two or three individuals I didn't recognize with relatively large amounts. I'm not sure if they are dealers I don't know or perhaps individuals who'd loaned money or sold material. The remainder were dealers I recognized. Without minimizing the pain I know they feel right now, I can say that I would not hesitate to take a check from any of them armed with the knowledge of the fact they are NGE creditors and the amounts due them. There is one on the list which I quit dealing with already due to other reasons.
I also viewed the list and would add to WayneHerndon's comments that there are only a couple of listed folks that are over or close to the $1 million mark. I am not sure if they are capable of handling a hit like that but I suspect there are other reasons they would have extended such amounts to NGE.
In addition, a few of the major coin dealers are also on the list to the tune of $100k to $200k.
What I did find interesting were the overseas creditors. There was a Belgian and German entity on the list.
And I will be sure to keep this thread away from Mrs. Longacre. Our house is not 29,000 square feet.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I don't see your point. Bernard Madoff was a respected and major player in the financial markets for more than thirty years. Andy, a thief is a thief.
Madoff purposefully committed repeated criminal acts over many years, and with many clients and even friends as his intended victims. If Mark is guilty, and if in fact there are any damages, he unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once. To me, there's a difference between the two. Consider Madoff's 150 year sentence and it should be clear that the courts will see a difference as well.
Interesting that you think Mark unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once. It's even more interesting that from your post, you're convinced that he didn't do much, if anything wrong, before having adequate facts to back up that statement. Andy, it makes a reasonable person not place much value in your obvioiusly biased comments in this matter.
I have no idea who did what here. Nor do I have any idea how this will play out. Perhaps Mark will be judged innocent of all wrongdoing; perhaps he'll be Madoff's cellmate. I don't know. My point is that no one should assume Mark is guilty as charged, or as pure as the driven snow at this point. Let the legal system proceed, and we lay people can process its decision(s) in this matter after they are rendered.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
We live in a want based society/economy. The only justification one needs in order to obtain something is to want it and of course be able to pay for it or get the credit to do so. Fortunately they can't just put such a monstrosity in any old place they'd like.
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
Much of the time the huge square footage is in realizing they will probably resale the home in 5-10 years. $400 a suare foot times 12,000 sq. ft. versus times 29,000. Also your buiding costs drop as the house gets bigger. Most expensive rooms to build are media room ( only need one), bathrooms ( usually only 8 or 9 in a house this size), and two full size kitchens (one for entertaining in while the chefs prepare the food in the other 'working' kitchen.)
YaHa- I promise to indirectly feed your race horses everyday, through the parimutuel windows.
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
Much of the time the huge square footage is in realizing they will probably resale the home in 5-10 years. $400 a suare foot times 12,000 sq. ft. versus times 29,000. Also your buiding costs drop as the house gets bigger. Most expensive rooms to build are media room ( only need one), bathrooms ( usually only 8 or 9 in a house this size), and two full size kitchens (one for entertaining in while the chefs prepare the food in the other 'working' kitchen.)
YaHa- I promise to indirectly feed your race horses everyday, through the parimutuel windows. >>
I feed virtual racehorses each day on TVG.. Pm me and I can tell you how to get $100 free to feed these tv horses.
Comments
<< <i>time to seek a lawyers help YaHa, but I'd say the coins should be recognized by the court as your property. It would then be a matter of getting them back.
with a nod to the pres. DW, I still must reference the alleged misdeeds and hope that the coins used as collateral were wholly NGE's and any alledged misdeeds involved only those. The way the article reads, it does.
planning any vacations in their area? Know some trustworthy power-of-attorney-able people around there who can pick them up for you?
Hmmmm.... there must be others in your similar situation. Seek Them Out. Find out and contact the court appointed trustee.
I feel your pain. >>
Well I had a chat with ICG today. Icg is in no way related to this lawsuit or takeover.. I will be getting my coins one way or the other soon, very soon, promised by a email also.. That's all I can say about that.. Mark Jaffe and his Brother do own ICG and another company, but as I was told today ICG will be up and running and is doing quite well..
I think though it might hurt their business down the road with this negativity happening right now.. I was also told this was a witchhunt attack and NGE will be vindicated for any wrong doing..
That remains to be seen. I just want my coins back..
P.S. Thanks to PCGS and Don Willis letting us chat about issues in the different Coin sectors of Nusimatics..
<< <i>Ecountering business issues and filing for bankruptcy is an everyday occurance and happens to a lot of people with the best intentions.
For anyone on this forum to speculate on the principals motives or character or anything beyond that is uncalled for.
Let's have a civil and respectful conversation. >>
Don, with no disrespect intended, many people with less than honorable intentions also use bankruptcy as a means to screw their creditors. I don't have enough facts to judge the intentions of the party / parties under discussion, at present. The related motives of the principals here will be revealed in due time.
A few years ago, a client who didn't feel like paying his taxes stiffed the IRS for $160,000. Filed BK; it was perfectly legal. A number of coin dealers go out on a limb, file BK in bad times and resurface when the market improves.
I can think of several dealers mentioned on this forum who paid for coins with bad checks (I assume this was intentional, but I didn't know the guilty parties, so I can't say, for sure). I personally know of another dealer who gave IOUs for gold bullion coins, took the clients' money and never made good on said IOUs. We've also discussed Tom Noe, and Stanford Coins on these forms.
To reiterate, I don't have the facts about this particular set of circumstances, so I will withhold judgement until I do. However, it seems clear that our industry has its share of unsavory characters.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I agree that we shouldn't pass judgement until all the facts in this mess are known but I do think a 28,000 square foot house entirely built with marble and granite is a little too decadant for a person's own good.
hiway listed earlier in this thread as NGE's address.
So far it has been a ho-hum reaction.
Who will take over as the top dogs in Florida?
When I was recently in Tampa we went to this really good steak place I think was on Dale Mabry and they had cows statues out in front......really nice place but I forget the name.
<< <i>The website I googled didn't identify the Owners, but stated that Gainesville Coin was located on Dale Mabry Hiway, the same
hiway listed earlier in this thread as NGE's address.
Very interesting.
FWIW, they are not the same location, but about a mile from each other. Wonder if they are related. Anyone know who's behind Gainesville Coins?
<< <i>Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..
What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys.. >>
I am 6' 4' and 250# and live in Southern California. If this happened to me I would be at their front door with a baseball bat pounding on the door no matter where they were located.
Regarding Gainesville, their management advised fellow CCE dealers of the following today:
"On Friday, July 24, 2009, National Gold Exchange, Inc. in Tampa,
Florida filed a Chapter 11 Petition in Bankruptcy Court in the Middle
District of Florida. Gainesville Coins, Inc. is a company located in
Tampa, Florida that has no relationship to National Gold Exchange.
Gainesville Coins has not filed bankruptcy, is not being audited, and
is not under any investigation. Gainesville is conducting business as
usual. Any rumors to the contrary are untrue and completely
unfounded.
Thank you,
Joe, Mike, Corey and the rest of the Gainesville Coins Team"
Wondercoin
Isn't it normal for the lending bank to observe a code of silence and to just work behind the scene?
<< <i>"The bank said the audit uncovered a shortfall, which, combined with recent bounced checks floated by National Gold Exchange, raised suspicions."
Those bankers are sharp! They picked up on the fact that bounced checks can be a harbinger of business difficulties.
Now, if they could only figured a out that you can't write a 500K mortgage for a guy who only makes 30K a year, we are in the clear on this national collapse!
<< <i>Ecountering business issues and filing for bankruptcy is an everyday occurance and happens to a lot of people with the best intentions.
For anyone on this forum to speculate on the principals motives or character or anything beyond that is uncalled for.
Let's have a civil and respectful conversation. >>
My condolences to those who will unfortunately end up paying for this fiasco... whoever they are.
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
During my experience as a commercial loan officer I saw this happen many times, not just when a company was experiencing difficulties, but even when they were not. Some guys just have to spend to match their ego.
I have done business with Mark Yaffe and his company at major shows. They handle some great gold coins.
Personally I like him.
It sounds like he over bought/leverged on a home and has been scrambling to keep up since the crash in real estate prices. Poor judgemnt on his part but quite a common story across the country.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
This incident could hurt a lot of other innocent people who happened to be involved with NGE transactions just at the most inopportune time. So, who's next? And there will be others. Just another wake up call to be careful with whom you do business with. It may have nothing to do with a person's character but that doesn't matter if you get caught in the web. After having lost 5 figures to Beavertown's 1990's bankruptcy on consigned coins I had my wake up call. And the ironic part is that they get to come back into the business with a clean slate.
roadrunner
Linky
NGE carried a big physical inventory of gold at all times. Given the rise in gold bullion in the past year, hedging just a portion of their inventory exposure to the bullion market could easily account for the 800K in losses. Of course, the physical inventory would have appreciated even more than 800K.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Who knows? But we really should wait until the facts are known.
I am concerned that NGE financiers might get antsy and call loans of other dealers or cut credit lines. That would have a contraction effect on the market I would suspect.
Anyone know about any large exposures to NGE?
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
<< <i>I agree with Andy in that hedging gold inventory is NOT a risky proposition and in fact is sound money management. They could have been making a fortune on their physical holdings while carrying a loss on their futures. Of course they could have been "Texas hedging" wherein they are long physical gold AND long futures. Then, even in a minor correction, they can take large losses.
Who knows? But we really should wait until the facts are known.
I am concerned that NGE financiers might get antsy and call loans of other dealers or cut credit lines. That would have a contraction effect on the market I would suspect.
Anyone know about any large exposures to NGE? >>
Why does it matter if the facts are known? Fact is they are heavily in debt and smoe poor basstird/s are gonna end up eating it for them. If they aren't guility of wrongdoing then one has to ask "How could someone so dumb survive in business for so long"?
I would buy the "Tampa hedging" strategy mentioned by JPKinla. The "expected" profits in gold in 2008 were probably too hard to pass up. It was after all....a "sure thing." The margin calls from August-October 2008 probably took a lot of people down. A gold dealer going bankrupt in a gold bull market? That takes some effort and excessive risk-taking, not hedging. But the facts will come out one way or the other. Considering the leverage in the futures is about 15 to 1, $800,000 seems like a lot of money to lose in hedges to protect simple physical bullion inventory. With the massive drop in the gold price from mid-year to November, I would have expected them to profit on their hedges, not lose $800K. And over the course of 2008 the pog only changed $20/oz. Inventory heavy in numismatic gold doesn't correlate well to using hedging via the gold price. How do you hedge a proof $3 gold piece or a wire rim high relief Saint with gold futures?
roadrunner
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders.
Thanks. Wondercoin
<< <i>I've been looking over the filed documents of the case... and assuredly this has really hurt some unsuspecting dealers and other unsecured creditors.
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders. >>
Is this online, and if so do you have a link, please?
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been looking over the filed documents of the case... and assuredly this has really hurt some unsuspecting dealers and other unsecured creditors.
The 20 largest unsecured creditors are owed a total of $44,409,000. If you remove the 35.1 million owed to Sovereign... the other 19 (mostly coin dealers) took hit of 9.1 million. Quick guesstimates adding other creditors (not in the top 20) makes it look like around $14,000,000 in total "known" losses to dealers. I'd guess there are few that will have a difficult time recovering.
And fwiw... hedging physical gold assets with paper gold is perfectly normal and well advised for most large holders. >>
Is this online, and if so do you have a link, please? >>
It's available on sites for a fee.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system...
you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)...
it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information.
<< <i>It is online, but it really took some digging last night to figure out how to get to them.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system...
you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)...
it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
Also available here.
<< <i>It is online, but it really took some digging last night to figure out how to get to them.
If you are so inclined you can search them out at: http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov - they are in the Florida Middle Bankruptcy Court. The case is 09-15972.
Bear in mind that it costs .08 per page generated to use this system...
you are giving a credit card to a US Court system's IT (notoriously weak security)...
it isn't all that exciting.
While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
Thanks for the info, but I don't like to give irresponsible people my cc number........
Innocent or not too bright?
<< <i><<While I appreciate the desire for the information I'd like to remind people that most of these creditors were innocent bystanders and might not want to have their losses made public. To that end I won't be the responsible party in posting that specific information. >>
Innocent or not too bright? >>
It's not my concern, but if I were a dealer (or collector) headed to the ANA to sell coins, I would want to know whose checks may be a little riskier than they were a month ago.
Can you imagin what would have happened if they were at the ANA
All the possiable bad checks and the ripple effect that could have had?
<< <i>I'm with the above
Can you imagin what would have happened if they were at the ANA
All the possiable bad checks and the ripple effect that could have had? >>
Dealers being left "holding the bag" of millions of dollars of bad checks unfortunately isn't anything unprecedented. It happened during the FUN convention in 2007.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm with the above
Can you imagin what would have happened if they were at the ANA
All the possiable bad checks and the ripple effect that could have had? >>
Dealers being left "holding the bag" of millions of dollars of bad checks unfortunately isn't anything unprecedented. It happened during the FUN convention in 2007. >>
While this may have been true then, the overall health of the coin market is not as strong now. In addition, in 2007, the credit lines were large and freeflowing. Today, any midlevel dealer who gets hit with $100k in bad checks may have little or no recourse. Multiply that throughout the industry and you have significant problems.
TRUTH
WH
In addition, a few of the major coin dealers are also on the list to the tune of $100k to $200k.
What I did find interesting were the overseas creditors. There was a Belgian and German entity on the list.
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
And I will be sure to keep this thread away from Mrs. Longacre. Our house is not 29,000 square feet.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Madoff purposefully committed repeated criminal acts over many years, and with many clients and even friends as his intended victims. If Mark is guilty, and if in fact there are any damages, he unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once. To me, there's a difference between the two. Consider Madoff's 150 year sentence and it should be clear that the courts will see a difference as well.
Interesting that you think Mark unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once. It's even more interesting that from your post, you're convinced that he didn't do much, if anything wrong, before having adequate facts to back up that statement. Andy, it makes a reasonable person not place much value in your obvioiusly biased comments in this matter.
I have no idea who did what here. Nor do I have any idea how this will play out. Perhaps Mark will be judged innocent of all wrongdoing; perhaps he'll be Madoff's cellmate. I don't know. My point is that no one should assume Mark is guilty as charged, or as pure as the driven snow at this point. Let the legal system proceed, and we lay people can process its decision(s) in this matter after they are rendered.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
WH
At present, the above is correct.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses..
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
We live in a want based society/economy. The only justification one needs in order to obtain something is to want it and of course be able to pay for it or get the credit to do so. Fortunately they can't just put such a monstrosity in any old place they'd like.
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
Much of the time the huge square footage is in realizing they will probably resale the home in 5-10 years. $400 a suare foot times 12,000 sq. ft. versus times 29,000. Also your buiding costs drop as the house gets bigger. Most expensive rooms to build are media room ( only need one), bathrooms ( usually only 8 or 9 in a house this size), and two full size kitchens (one for entertaining in while the chefs prepare the food in the other 'working' kitchen.)
YaHa- I promise to indirectly feed your race horses everyday, through the parimutuel windows.
<< <i>
<< <i>What does one do with a 29,000 sqft home anyways.. Hell I guess you could have a huge sweatshop in the left wing with a bayview.
I still don't understand why people need that kind of material rubbish.. The rich would say I was just jealous and I would agree, not to the huge home, but to the way someone like that would eventually have 5 wives, 20 kids and 3 race horses and 10 years down the road talking crap at a bar in a small town rambling on about how he f-ed up everything.
BTW:I really just want the race horses.. >>
Much of the time the huge square footage is in realizing they will probably resale the home in 5-10 years. $400 a suare foot times 12,000 sq. ft. versus times 29,000. Also your buiding costs drop as the house gets bigger. Most expensive rooms to build are media room ( only need one), bathrooms ( usually only 8 or 9 in a house this size), and two full size kitchens (one for entertaining in while the chefs prepare the food in the other 'working' kitchen.)
YaHa- I promise to indirectly feed your race horses everyday, through the parimutuel windows. >>
I feed virtual racehorses each day on TVG.. Pm me and I can tell you how to get $100 free to feed these tv horses.