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Major gold dealer in hot water with bank over $25 million Tampa home

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  • stinkinlincolnstinkinlincoln Posts: 2,733 ✭
    28k SQ FT?



    WHY?
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,408 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VERY nice house - too bad it's in Tampa. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder where he hides his gold in that house??
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • stinkinlincolnstinkinlincoln Posts: 2,733 ✭
    <<The bank said the audit uncovered a shortfall, which, combined with recent bounced checks floated by National Gold Exchange>>

    Someones got to pay the landscapers...
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree, that roof is a terrible design for Fla. Can you say leak.
    He wasn't thinking clearly on both counts.
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shocking, no?
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting. Thanks for passing this on. The Yaffes are a friend of a friend.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tonelover: I am informed (although I have not personally verified) that on Friday, July 24, 2009, National Gold Exchange, Inc. in Tampa,
    Florida filed a Chapter 11 Petition in Bankruptcy Court in the Middle District of Florida.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "The bank said the audit uncovered a shortfall, which, combined with recent bounced checks floated by National Gold Exchange, raised suspicions."

    Those bankers are sharp! They picked up on the fact that bounced checks can be a harbinger of business difficulties. image

    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I guess that explains why they didn't have any US gold in their case at the summer FUN show earlier this month. I thought that seemed odd; they always had a good selection of the late date Saints. Not that I could afford them, but I like to look!

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 1 coin. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,421 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did I just hear a straw breaking?
    All glory is fleeting.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    this major gold dealer has something to do with ICG. an owner i think?

    feel free to rant and rave about either :-)
  • droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Nice house! >>



    nice faux cathedral is more like it.
    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
  • droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭
    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hmmm, I was wondering why I was not getting gold price emails.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I am not mistaken, a coin dealer once described Mr. Yaffee to me as being "richer than God". I guess even major deities have been hurt by the credit crunch. image
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,339 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Does NGE provide storage for their gold investers? If so, this could prove to be very interesting.image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220 ✭
    Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..image

    What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys..
  • WTCGWTCG Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭
    I've heard rumors about that now infamous house.

    Just as a sidenote, NGE removed all their bids on CCE this morning.
    Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup
    Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
  • truthtellertruthteller Posts: 1,240 ✭✭


    << <i>Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..image

    What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys.. >>




    Petition the court as a creditor and expect to receive nothing.



    TRUTH
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    If I was richer than god I'm still not sure I would need a house that big.

    Sure looks nice though. image
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    [edit] (to Yaha)
    ICG has 4k of your gold since last august? That is a year ago. Why would ICG hold $4k of your gold for a year? I thought they were a grading service, not a storage service.




    They might be current on the loan payments...but that won't save you if you went and sold the collateral out from under that loan. OUCH!
  • YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220 ✭


    << <i>[edit] (to Yaha)
    ICG has 4k of your gold since last august? That is a year ago. Why would ICG hold $4k of your gold for a year? I thought they were a grading service, not a storage service. >>




    I have asked numerous people for help on this matter, some told me contact the ANA, I sent them a demand certified letter for replacements or their guarantee policy value and my last conversation was they are working on it, I told them to send my coins back and they were waiting for a decisions.. So, now it looks bad or does it..
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..image

    What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys.. >>



    Your coins are not thier property, if they dispose of them in any way it is illegal. Hope things workout OK.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,996 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Just as a sidenote, NGE removed all their bids on CCE this morning. >>

    Now that is interesting! Is NGE big enough to singlehandedly have a significant impact on market prices for generic gold?
    When in doubt, don't.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As I understand it, ICG is not owned by NGE.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As I understand it, ICG is not owned by NGE. >>



    So do we need a separate thread to discuss why ICGNACS won't return Yaha's coins?
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well let me put this as easy as I know.. NGE is the sister company of ICG.. I called ICG today because they have $4k in Gold since last August and maybe or could be the demise of ICG also. Pretty weird I just talked to a rep at ICG and they told me a huge audited was going on at NGE.. Well here you are. Now ICG is not answering their phones..image

    What does a person like myself do if a company is chapter 11 and they have my coins that are GOLD and valuable? I will keep in touch with you guys.. >>



    Your coins are not thier property, if they dispose of them in any way it is illegal. Hope things workout OK. >>




    Thanks Ben.. As I understood NGE was ICG bankroll backing.. So you are right, my coins are mine and should be sent back if ICG is also going to vanish. Not happy.. I bought these on TT a few years back and the AGE Buffs developed problems last summer in the slabs..
  • WTCGWTCG Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Just as a sidenote, NGE removed all their bids on CCE this morning. >>

    Now that is interesting! Is NGE big enough to singlehandedly have a significant impact on market prices for generic gold? >>



    For generic gold there are several other companies that are still bidding competitively. NGE always had their bids up but most of the time, except for ICG coins, their bids weren't the highest nor totally competitive with the others.
    Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup
    Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
  • truthtellertruthteller Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
    Well, you could call PNG and see if they will intervene. The ANA show is the best place to make a fuss. However, the cost involved to get your coins back may not be worth the expense.



    TRUTH
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,554 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) The house isn't big enough.
    2) It's also ugly.
    3) A local guy did something similar during the gold bust of 1981, though the numbers weren't quite as large. He was very good at pocketing people's money and issuing IOUs for gold bullion coins at the current day's close. Made for interesting wallpaper, I suppose.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220 ✭


    << <i>As I understand it, ICG is not owned by NGE. >>




    The problem is Mark Jaffe owns ICG. Can someone confirmed this?
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If I am not mistaken, a coin dealer once described Mr. Yaffee to me as being "richer than God". >>



    I don't know about all that, but he did throw some whopper parties. image
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If I am not mistaken, a coin dealer once described Mr. Yaffee to me as being "richer than God". >>



    I don't know about all that, but he did throw some whopper parties. image >>




    Which apparently may be comming to an end (Thanks JPK):

    National Gold Exchange Inc. filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy petition on July 24

    From: http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2009/07/27/daily13.html



    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A local guy did something similar during the gold bust of 1981, though the numbers weren't quite as large. He was very good at pocketing people's money and issuing IOUs for gold bullion coins at the current day's close. Made for interesting wallpaper, I suppose.

    While it's pretty clear that Mark screwed up, the comparison is not fair. Mark has been a well-respected and major player in the coin business for more than 30 years, and he will undoubtedly remain so.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As I understand it, ICG is not owned by NGE. >>




    The problem is Mark Jaffe owns ICG. Can someone confirmed this? >>



    Jaffe or Yaffe? NGE is owned by Mark Yaffe (and his brother, as I understand things). I have no idea who owns ICG.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Their filing says they owe up to $100Mn, and they only owe the bank $35Mn. There will be some crying in coinland by whoever they owe the rest of that money to!!!!!
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Building a large albeit ugly home in Florida is often part of careful planning. My recollection is that Florida is one of the few States that prevents creditors from seizing someone's personal home. Florida's homestead exemption encourages construction of large homes to shelter otherwise vulnerable assets. That exemption has helped the likes of Madoff and O.J. Simpson hold off creditors.

    Edit for spelling and missing word.
    NO END IN SIGHT LIB $2.50'S CAC ONLY
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    On a related note, I just received word from one of the NGE empoyees. They were called at 2:30AM in the morning and told not to come into work. Sad news indeed.
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Building a large albeit ugly home in Florida is often part of careful planning. My recollection is that Florida is one of the few States that prevents creditors from seizing someone's personal home. Florida's homestead exemption encourages construction of large homes to shelter otherwise vulnerable assets. That exemption has helped the likes of Madoff and O.J. Simpson hold off creditors. >>



    Very true. However, in Yaffe's case he does operate a business here in Florida and has been a resident for some time (late 80's?). That's not to say he won't use the homestead exemption to hide that asset from creditors, but rather to compare him to others who don't live in the state except for the real estate shelter (which I believe only applies to their primary residence).
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As I understand it, ICG is not owned by NGE. >>




    The problem is Mark Jaffe owns ICG. Can someone confirmed this? >>



    here is an article that will shed some light on Mark Jaffe and ICG.

    http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=3678

    "In turn, Kline said, ICG has hired four or five of the ANACS graders that had been dismissed by Taylor Dec. 26 after his purchase of the ANACS assets. Kline represents ICG owners Mark and Alan Yaffe of National Gold Exchange and their 3 Black Diamond holding corporation."
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    Perhaps this portends the future for many, marginally funded

    PM and coin companies, that are unable to stand the winds of

    negative change. In this economy, there is no substitute for having

    a sound business plan, adequate cash reserves and lines of credit,

    tight overhead cost control, loyal customer base and capable management.

    In this environment, the strong survive and the weak .go away , shrivel up

    and die.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In this economy, there is no substitute for having

    a sound business plan, adequate cash reserves and lines of credit,

    tight overhead cost control, loyal customer base and capable management,

    living in a 28,000 square foot house

    purchased on credit.

    image
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,554 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A local guy did something similar during the gold bust of 1981, though the numbers weren't quite as large. He was very good at pocketing people's money and issuing IOUs for gold bullion coins at the current day's close. Made for interesting wallpaper, I suppose.

    While it's pretty clear that Mark screwed up, the comparison is not fair. Mark has been a well-respected and major player in the coin business for more than 30 years, and he will undoubtedly remain so. >>


    I don't see your point. Bernard Madoff was a respected and major player in the financial markets for more than thirty years. Andy, a thief is a thief.

    Yaha - Never, ever let anyone hold your coins for you. Once you've paid for them, they belong in your safe deposit box.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>A local guy did something similar during the gold bust of 1981, though the numbers weren't quite as large. He was very good at pocketing people's money and issuing IOUs for gold bullion coins at the current day's close. Made for interesting wallpaper, I suppose.

    While it's pretty clear that Mark screwed up, the comparison is not fair. Mark has been a well-respected and major player in the coin business for more than 30 years, and he will undoubtedly remain so. >>


    I don't see your point. Bernard Madoff was a respected and major player in the financial markets for more than thirty years. Andy, a thief is a thief. >>



    And someone who is accused of a crime isn't necessarily guilty of it, or are we suspending the presumption of innocence?

    To the point, what crime has Yaffe been convicted of?
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where's that pop corn icon when you need it.
    This is huge news in the Gold markets.

    YaHa:You paid for insurance both ways right.
    Maybe time to collect
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see your point. Bernard Madoff was a respected and major player in the financial markets for more than thirty years. Andy, a thief is a thief.

    Madoff purposefully committed repeated criminal acts over many years, and with many clients and even friends as his intended victims. If Mark is guilty, and if in fact there are any damages, he unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once. To me, there's a difference between the two. Consider Madoff's 150 year sentence and it should be clear that the courts will see a difference as well.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    he unintentionally screwed a bank, and just once.

    Don't have any facts at hand in this case, but intentional or unintentional it only takes once to get your hat handed to you. Ask Noe.
    Early Dollar Set
  • DonWillisDonWillis Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
    Ecountering business issues and filing for bankruptcy is an everyday occurance and happens to a lot of people with the best intentions.

    For anyone on this forum to speculate on the principals motives or character or anything beyond that is uncalled for.

    Let's have a civil and respectful conversation.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    time to seek a lawyers help YaHa, but I'd say the coins should be recognized by the court as your property. It would then be a matter of getting them back.

    with a nod to the pres. DW, I still must reference the alleged misdeeds and hope that the coins used as collateral were wholly NGE's and any alledged misdeeds involved only those. The way the article reads, it does.

    planning any vacations in their area? Know some trustworthy power-of-attorney-able people around there who can pick them up for you?


    Hmmmm.... there must be others in your similar situation. Seek Them Out. Find out and contact the court appointed trustee.


    I feel your pain.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions

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