Show us the EARLIEST RED copper you have

Prethen

The earliest I recall seeing might be 1840's-1850's. Anyone have much earlier? Is there such a thing as red copper (half) cents from the 1790's?

JRocco

Here is a Full Red 1785 double struck Russian 5 KOPEKS

JRocco

Actually, here is an older Full Red beauty, 1776. with a nice restruck date

Prethen

jrocco:

Does your coin exhibit any luster? What's its composition? One would assume that U.S. old copper without luster and red has been likely improperly cleaned or chemically altered.

Goldbully

Early, but not quite red!!!

coinsarefun

I have these being sent to me soon, courtesy of CRO...............





Stefanie






(1790s) Blofield Cavalry / Norfolk Conder Token Halfpenny

MS65 RB [NGC]

Dalton & Hamer 6B; plain edge.

This is an interesting piece bearing the Blofield Calvary design, one familiar to many collectors of colonial coins
since it also appears on one of the rare Talbot mules.

And this is a top condition piece, with about half of the original mint red remaining.


oops, fixed the image








NGC64 RB

coinsarefun

<< <i>Actually, here is an older Full Red beauty, 1776. with a nice restruck date


>>












I love it!!!

But, I have a love for all Russian



Stefanie

JRocco

<< <i>jrocco:

Does your coin exhibit any luster? What's its composition? One would assume that U.S. old copper without luster and red has been likely improperly cleaned or chemically altered. >>



These are large pieces made of copper weighing 51.2 grams
I would not say that there is any luster on either of these pieces, but
here is a 1795 that is a strong AU example that I believe shows luster.

BillJones

Here is a 1773 Virginia half penny. Don't get too excited. This is a hoard coin. There are a few hundred Mint State pieces known. But I have seen them as low as VG.

Catbert

1794 Hampshire Portsmouth 55 Conder Token (check out the fine die polish lines!):

Catbert

Stefanie - those are some MIGHTY fine Conders you have there! Congratulations!

DMWJR

darktone

I got this 1818 cent that is red and brown. I am sure others here have earlier stuff.

ColonialCoinUnion

This dates to the second half of the 1600's:

Deagle74

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Stefanie this one is gorgeus





I don't know about red, but it's early and definitely copper


R

jmj3esq

Not very early, but...

marmac

I've always opted for brwon with a dollop of red:

Colorfulcoins

Wish I still had a picture of the 1798 Large Cent AG3 Red I had......but even thought it said red, I have to believe that it was a mechanical error......it was red, but an AG3?

supergem

tradedollarnut

Great half cent!

BECOKA

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dorkkarl

there is original foreign red copper from the 1600s in existence, but not u.s. coins

K S

AnkurJ

1795 Raw Large Cent bought from Tom Hyland. The coin has not been tampered with at all. Has much more red showing in person than in the pics.



Ankur

Barry

If you think any red copper older than an IHC is original, you are living in a fantasy world (and there are very few original, red IHCs). Copper is just too reactive a metal to remain red for that length of time, unless stored in an inert environment.

supergem

<< <i>If you think any red copper older than an IHC is original, you are living in a fantasy world (and there are very few original, red IHCs). Copper is just too reactive a metal to remain red for that length of time, unless stored in an inert environment. >>



Barry,

So I take it you believe that it is impossible for there to have been an inert environment to protect any older red copper coins until Indian Head Cents entered circulation? Is that something you believe based on your own personal laboratory examinations of EVERY existing specimen of early red copper? Or is that just your ASSUMPTION based on normal chemical principles and your ASSUMPTION that there we no collectors around (or other circumstances) to preserve red copper coins until the advent of the Indian Head Cent?

The half cent I posted was from a known hoard, an original unopened keg of half cents that remained undisturbed from its time of striking until it came into the possession of the Chapman brothers in the late 1800's or early 1900's. The Chapman brothers opened the keg and distributed the coins to collectors, who, at that time (and since they paid premiums to purchase the coins) then sought to preserve them in their collections. Most of the coins from the hoard (presumably those near the sides of the keg) display quite a bit of carbon spotting from the effects of the environment, while others like this one (presumably from the center of the keg) remained pristine. If you think about it, coins at the center of the keg would be insulated from the environment even futher by the other coins. Those coins would absorb the effects of the environment (and become rather spotty in the process), but would protect the inner coins much like today's "Intercept Shield" materials.

Or, maybe I'm just drinking the Kool-Aid, and the chemical effects of the intercept shields are just a fantasy in my imagination?

Elcontador

Supergem - You have a fantastic Half Cent, senhor! My oldest RB coin is an 1835 Classic Half Cent in 5 RB. My oldest full RD copper is an 09 P IHC (in 5 RD).

SmallEagle

<< <i>

<< <i>If you think any red copper older than an IHC is original, you are living in a fantasy world (and there are very few original, red IHCs). Copper is just too reactive a metal to remain red for that length of time, unless stored in an inert environment. >>



Barry,

So I take it you believe that it is impossible for there to have been an inert environment to protect any older red copper coins until Indian Head Cents entered circulation? Is that something you believe based on your own personal laboratory examinations of EVERY existing specimen of early red copper? Or is that just your ASSUMPTION based on normal chemical principles and your ASSUMPTION that there we no collectors around (or other circumstances) to preserve red copper coins until the advent of the Indian Head Cent?

The half cent I posted was from a known hoard, an original unopened keg of half cents that remained undisturbed from its time of striking until it came into the possession of the Chapman brothers in the late 1800's or early 1900's. The Chapman brothers opened the keg and distributed the coins to collectors, who, at that time (and since they paid premiums to purchase the coins) then sought to preserve them in their collections. Most of the coins from the hoard (presumably those near the sides of the keg) display quite a bit of carbon spotting from the effects of the environment, while others like this one (presumably from the center of the keg) remained pristine. If you think about it, coins at the center of the keg would be insulated from the environment even futher by the other coins. Those coins would absorb the effects of the environment (and become rather spotty in the process), but would protect the inner coins much like today's "Intercept Shield" materials.

Or, maybe I'm just drinking the Kool-Aid, and the chemical effects of the intercept shields are just a fantasy in my imagination? >>



Supergem,
I don't care what Barry says about the originality of your red half cent, I'll pay you a nice premium to PCGS price guide if you'd like to sell.

SmallEagle (in fantasy world)

Barry

Supergem - I don't know the history of your coin. Perhaps it was in a mostly airtight environment for many years and it is original. It's possible. I don't know.
There are exceptions to every rule, but in my opinion, 99.9% of early copper that's red has been messed with. It's the nature (no pun intended) of the beast, just like puttied gold, and ATed silver.

Prethen

That 1806 is so far the oldest red half cent or large cent I've ever seen. Thanks for showing it off!!!

MacCrimmon

Yes, original red copper or virgin bronzed coins & medals do exist


This link shows mostly bronzed medals manufactured under the hands of Messrs. Bolton & Watt (the steam engine guy * ).

As you can see, these were preserved in custom-fitted brass shells with silver linings. In effect, the shells acted as environmental 'scavengers'.

There also exist the most perfect and pristine bronzed, red copper and gilt proof versions if the Irish currency coins which were also from the Watt Family sale. The last I saw, Evan Gale, was the owner, and I believe one of our own board members actually purchased those or several different examples of the Watt holdings back in 2003/4.

Anyway, think of those shells as Intercept Shields, B.C.

MrEureka

I just bought a 1775 farthing that's virtually full red and completely original.

DMWJR

Barry's point is well taken that many old copper coins that are "red" have had something done to them through the years, however there are some original ones still out there. The 1723 Hibernia I posted is an original red coin although the photo is a little darker than the coin looks in hand. I also saw a beautiful Rosa in 65red a year or so ago that CRO consigned to Heritage that was beautiful and original.

No doubt that 1806 is a lovely original red coin. Did any of you check out the red half cents in Stewart's collection last year? There were a number of them -- red and original.

farthing

Francis Cokayne was an English collector around the beginning of the 20th century who collected, among other things the finest 1790's Conder tokens available. His collection was auctioned of in the 1940's and has been mostly off the market since. A number of his pieces have recently hit the market through several major Conder token dealers. I have had the pleasure to see a number of these, including quite a few that were fully red and completely original.

yellowkid

<< <i>This dates to the second half of the 1600's:
>>




Very cool!!

Broadstruck

66Tbird

It's not early, but it sure looks like a chuck of pure untouched copper to me.

Atlantic

PCGS says Red/Brown

jdillane

Great thread!

JRocco - very cool specimens! Looks like the 5 KOPEKS is triple struck based on the left facing wing.

Stephanie - nice cud and the Birds and Beasts token is way cool! I want one too!!!

Props to the 1806 half cent. What a beaut!

I once had an 1870 IHC that was slabbed MS65 in a gold PCI holder Well, all I can say about that is the color looked fine to these eyes and she was virtually devoid of marks with full and flashy luster. The buyer reported that she did not cross. But, he was still happy with her. No pics handy unfortunately.

I think Barry's comments above are generally sound other than I suspect there are a few more legit exceptions than he would likely allow.

busco69

ChrisRx

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Would LOVE to see that in hand. WOW.

IGWT

This is an old picture, but it gets the point across.