<< <i>Again, why would I take Hoop up on his bet when I have agreed with him?
Learn how to read and digest what people say.
'maybe' and may be have two different meanings and their was no dancing around.
My comment was direct and to the point.
Sorry, but you mis read what was said.
Steve >>
Nice try, Steve. Obviously, hoopster logged off the boards last night becuase you would not take him up on his offer. You can't have it both ways and talk out both sides of your mouth, my friend.
Pujols is putting up better numbers with a weaker lineup in St. Louis, then there is no doubt based on the statistics that he WOULD be much better in a loaded Phillies lineup with more opportunities, not to mention playing 81 games a season in a more offensive friendly juice box.
No nice try about it. Not only did I agree with Hoop last night but have agreed with that theory of his when he first mentioned it almost 4 months ago.
It had nothing to do with him logging off.
Again, you have reading comprehension problems.
I'll say it again, I did not take Hoop up on his bet because I fully understand his logic in regard to how RBI production can be compared to the amount of attempts a player gets AND the amount of players one has on base for him to drive in compared to other players.
Hoops logic regarding free throws is spot on.
Now do you get it?
Geez I got it 4 months ago when he first mentioned it.
<< <i>"To sum up...Howard in his first 4 seasons has led the league twice in RBI's and HR's - doesn't matter how or why he did it...he did it, and that's a fact. I didn't Google it, but I would have to believe not many if any in MLB history have achieved that,"
Also in his first 4 seasons, Howard has won one MVP and one runnerup MVP.
I'm still waiting for the two stat geniuses to explain how all this doean't have all the makings of a great player, and has this ever been accomplished by any other player in MLB history? But ahh, those silly HR's, RBI's, and MVP awards don't mean that much right geniuses?
But I guess the two geniuses are too busy reading the latest Harry Potter book which they think is an autobiography. LOL >>
You have been told numerous times, but you fail to comprehend it, so that is probably why no one will try to further explain it to you.
Howard is NOT a great player, and will never be considered a "great" player. Howard is a good homerun hitter that plays in a juice box, with an explosive offensive team around him that helps pads his numbers by having many more opportunities. Howard stole one MVP from Pujols, but that will probably be the last one, unless Howard can figure out how to hit better than .250-.260 with 200 k's per season.
"Greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
Hoopster lives in a fantasy world of numbers, perhaps similar to John Nash (from the movie A Beautiful Mind), but John Nash was certainly a lot smarter than Hoopster. LOL
Hoopster obviously doesn't understand the intangibles that go into the game of baseball. Are stats interesting? Of course they are and as a kid and even sometimes now, I used to enjoy reading the stats on the back of baseball cards.
Hoopster needs to understand the obvious that it's players who win championships, not stats. An easy illustration of that is the1960 WS in which the Yankees clobbered the Pirates comparing statistics - but the Pirates won that WS.
And Hoopster FYI, Superman is not a real person, he is a fictional comic book character...I'm sorry to have to tell you that because in another thread you stated that you had been trying to get Superman's autograph.
We can make a two baseball teams. I get to pick your teammates, and I also get to pick MINE. We will play each other 25 games. We can place a 15k bet on who wins more games. Only then will one understand the role of teammates.
If that is the 'bet' you were speaking of I never replied to it because it was stupid. Why would I let him choose my team and choose his?
What did that have to do with anything anyway?
And even if he did pick both teams and we did 'bet' is he nostradumbass? How would he know who would win more games?
So in closing I'll repeat myself so you fully understand why I did not bet. I did not take him up on his bet because it was stupid.
Howard is a good homerun hitter that plays in a juice box, with an explosive offensive team around him that helps pads his numbers by having many more opportunities.
You left out 'that won a world championship last year and has led the league in HR and RBI in the past'.
No one is disputing that Pujols is the better, greater player. Geez you have a man crush on that guy.
What they are saying and what I agreed with is they are content with Howard on their team
What I don't understand is Hoops has said on numerous occasions that Pujols is a juicer. Why all of a sudden is that being left out?
For the record I have no idea if he does juice or does not juice.
greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
<< <i>We can make a two baseball teams. I get to pick your teammates, and I also get to pick MINE. We will play each other 25 games. We can place a 15k bet on who wins more games. Only then will one understand the role of teammates.
If that is the 'bet' you were speaking of I never replied to it because it was stupid. Why would I let him choose my team and choose his?
What did that have to do with anything anyway?
And even if he did pick both teams and we did 'bet' is he nostradumbass? How would he know who would win more games?
So in closing I'll repeat myself so you fully understand why I did not bet. I did not take him up on his bet because it was stupid.
Steve >>
It's not stupid, it based on the principles you and stevek are too blind to admit you are wrong about. Nice try, once again, Steve..
<< <i>greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
Says STMM as he sniffs Pujols game used jock.
Steve >>
Oh boy, gee, here comes the juvenile comments since you can't win the debate, you guys will resort to this nonsense. It's not about sniffing anything, it's about having enough common sense to see a great hitter/player right before your very eyes. Heck, whether some of you want to admit it or not, all the baseball experts say the same things about Pujols, so it just makes your juvenile games look even more ignorant.
<< <i>it's players who win championships, not stats >>
Do you realize any one player only represents 11% of the total lineup? When you give too much credit to Howard, all it does is take away credit from Utley, Ibanez and the rest of the team
<< <i>Again, why would I take Hoop up on his bet when I have agreed with him?
Learn how to read and digest what people say.
'maybe' and may be have two different meanings and their was no dancing around.
My comment was direct and to the point.
Sorry, but you mis read what was said.
Steve >>
Nice try, Steve. Obviously, hoopster logged off the boards last night becuase you would not take him up on his offer. You can't have it both ways and talk out both sides of your mouth, my friend.
Pujols is putting up better numbers with a weaker lineup in St. Louis, then there is no doubt based on the statistics that he WOULD be much better in a loaded Phillies lineup with more opportunities, not to mention playing 81 games a season in a more offensive friendly juice box. >>
Yea Hoopster and his silly bet, that as silly as he is, he must know that nobody in their right mind is gonna bet 15K with some anonymous dope on an internet forum. He knows I don't gamble, but even if I did, I wouldn't bet $1 with him or anybody on an internet forum and I already clearly explained the reasons why in past threads how scammers haunt internet forums with various scams looking for suckers to place bets with. I'm not saying Hoopster is a scammer, but his "persistence" with this bet is a bit alarming to say the least. A "serious scammer" would hope for a lower counter offer and then the scam is set in place through clever ways such as escrow accounts, etc, in which the scammer is well versed on how to commit fraud. Again, I'm not saying Hoopster is a scammer, but I'll be watching.
<< <i>greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
I guess agreeing with you and hoop makes me wrong?
I've already said I understood (agreed) with the free throw concept.
(even though a case COULD be made that more games COULD be won by the player with more chances then the player with less chances even if they both have the same amount of RBI) or even if the player had MORE RBI with less chances. It is unknown from year to year. It could only be declared as FACT after the year is over and the stats properly digested. But to say it always wins more games and that always translates into more championships is not correct and that was the crux of my argument. greatness had nothing to do with my argument.
That is what I think you and he failed to understand because you two wear blinders and see only your opinions and no one else's
I've already agreed that Pujols is the better greater player (then Howard) Repeat that 3x so it sinks in.
Not sure where you are coming from, the only thing could be is you have reading comprehension problems.
<< <i>Howard is a good homerun hitter that plays in a juice box, with an explosive offensive team around him that helps pads his numbers by having many more opportunities.
You left out 'that won a world championship last year and has led the league in HR and RBI in the past'.
No one is disputing that Pujols is the better, greater player. Geez you have a man crush on that guy.
What they are saying and what I agreed with is they are content with Howard on their team
What I don't understand is Hoops has said on numerous occasions that Pujols is a juicer. Why all of a sudden is that being left out?
For the record I have no idea if he does juice or does not juice.
Steve >>
You know what, there is no basis for that comment other than someone pulling something out of their rear. Some have to resort to this juvenile and wreckless character attacks with not one shred of evidence to back them. Great players can do it with God given talent/ability. Musial did, and that is what Pujols does it with.
I guess agreeing with you and hoop makes me wrong?
I've already said I understood (agreed) with the free throw concept.
(even though a case COULD be made that more games COULD be won by the player with more chances then the player with less chances even if they both have the same amount of RBI) or even if the player had MORE RBI with less chances. It is unknown from year to year. It could only be declared as FACT after the year is over and the stats properly digested. But to say it always wins more games and that always translates into more championships is not correct and that was the crux of my argument. greatness had nothing to do with my argument.
That is what I think you and he failed to understand because you two wear blinders and see only your opinions and no one else's
I've already agreed that Pujols is the better greater player (then Howard) Repeat that 3x so it sinks in.
Not sure where you are coming from, the only thing could be is you have reading comprehension problems.
Steve >>
Yeah, this is always your escape card, Steve. You have become too predictable. Find a new one to use next time.
You know what, there is no basis for that comment other than someone pulling something out of their rear. Some have to resort to this juvenile and wreckless character attacks with not one shred of evidence to back them. Great players can do it with God given talent/ability. Musial did, and that is what Pujols does it with.
STM keeps saying he's been trying for years to get an autograph of Bruce Wayne TTM but he keeps getting no response...I keep trying to explain to him...............
<< <i>Yeah, this is always your escape card, Steve. You have become too predictable. Find a new one to use next time.
Just what I thought, you can't provide it so you fall back on your typical BS
Steve >>
Provide what?
I only told the truth as to what you do, Steve. Your "escape card" is nothing new, and now I will wait for the pile on from my enemies/your buddies to start. Ah.. this place never seems to surprise me anymore.
Provide me with the facts that you feel I need to know to be informed.
You can start in this very thread and copy and paste. I'm sure their must be some comments I made here that you feel I was wrong and need informing on?
Until then all you are doing is spinning which is usual for you.
My last comment in which I spelled out exactly what I was saying(last night) and how I felt in relation to this entire subject was dismissed out of hand by you. Re read it, read it 5 times if you must.
<< <i>Provide me with the facts that you feel I need to know to be informed.
You can start in this very thread and copy and paste. I'm sure their must be some comments I made here that you feel I was wrong and need informing on?
Until then all you are doing is spinning which is usual for you.
My last comment in which I spelled out exactly what I was saying(last night) and how I felt in relation to this entire subject was dismissed out of hand by you. Re read it, read it 5 times if you must.
Steve >>
Steve,
I have learned that this could go on with you for days on end, becuase you don't work, and have all day to sit around and cook up more spin. Again, I think 21,000+ posts in 5 years just proves you love you hear yourself. I know there is no end to this, if I am silly enough to play along, so if you need the last word to feel better, then more power to you.
And for the record I do work, what an ignorant statement on your part STTM.
another word you used in this thread.
"ignorant'
And when all else fails refer to the amount of posts someone has.
I was waiting for the everyone hates me thread and you finally obliged on that one.
The fact of the matter is I've agreed with you all along, only you were too dumb to realize it.
What I disagreed with is, stating as fact, someone that produces more or less RBI with more or less chances will win more games or less games as a matter of fact. Unless the season is over, only then can it be finally digested and proved either way. And the proof would only be for that year.
To say as fact that it will always happen a certain way is IMO not true.
<< <i> I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys >>
It was directed at the idea that if Howard is equal to Ruth -- and he has only their third best player, why do they only have 35 wins?
Since we agree that players win games and win championships, why don't you just tell us where Ryan Howard ranks among all players at helping their team win? We agree he is well below Pujols. Do we also agree he is below Utley and Ibanez? How about Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, Hunter Pence, Beltran and Wright, Braun and Fielder? Has to be at the bottom of that list. Chipper Jones has so far been better. Have to put Howard above Nick Johnson, but it's close. That is only the hitters. Haren, Lincecum and a handful of other pitchers have done more to help their team win games. And that's only the NL
So when it comes to accumulating the stats that correlate with helping teams win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. When it comes to actually helping his team win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. I agree that that is very good and if you want to call it "great," feel free to do so, definitely a much better athlete than I am. Also, since Howard has come into the league, there have been years when he was even better than that, but his batting average and walk rate has dropped considerably since his peak
<< <i> I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys >>
It was directed at the idea that if Howard is equal to Ruth -- and he has only their third best player, why do they only have 35 wins?
Since we agree that players win games and win championships, why don't you just tell us where Ryan Howard ranks among all players at helping their team win? We agree he is well below Pujols. Do we also agree he is below Utley and Ibanez? How about Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, Hunter Pence, Beltran and Wright, Braun and Fielder? Has to be at the bottom of that list. Chipper Jones has so far been better. Have to put Howard above Nick Johnson, but it's close. That is only the hitters. Haren, Lincecum and a handful of other pitchers have done more to help their team win games. And that's only the NL
So when it comes to accumulating the stats that correlate with helping teams win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. When it comes to actually helping his team win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. I agree that that is very good and if you want to call it "great," feel free to do so, definitely a much better athlete than I am. Also, since Howard has come into the league, there have been years when he was even better than that, but his batting average and walk rate has dropped considerably since his peak >>
Yes, you're entitled to your opinion and this is the opinion of the NL MVP award:
2006 - Ryan Howard first 2007 - Ryan Howard fifth 2008 - Ryan Howard second
funny...I don't see anything close to fifty there.
Number one I never said or used the word 'great' In this discussion and Ryan Howard
Number two IMO it does not matter what other players on other teams do as far as Howard's contribution on his team. I don't like to say that player X would do Y on a certain team.
As far as your opinion that he is perhaps the 50th best player in the league one could look at that, and conclude he is the 3rd best on his own team
Which IMO is nothing to sneeze at. 16 teams x 3 = 48 That is of course if each team was blessed the same way, which they are not.
He could be the best player on his team and the 50th best overall too for that matter.
Thanks for replying Tom how is that collection you are trying to sell going?
<< <i>And for the record I do work, what an ignorant statement on your part STTM.
You stated in the past that you didn't. You claimed you was on disability
another word you used in this thread.
"ignorant'
And when all else fails refer to the amount of posts someone has.
21,000+ posts surely shows you love to hear yourself talk. Just staing the obvious..
I was waiting for the everyone hates me thread and you finally obliged on that one.
I was just stating the piling on will come in due time. It usually does on this board.
The fact of the matter is I've agreed with you all along, only you were too dumb to realize it.
You spin, twist words, and then say this. Typical
What I disagreed with is, stating as fact, someone that produces more or less RBI with more or less chances will win more games or less games as a matter of fact. Unless the season is over, only then can it be finally digested and proved either way. And the proof would only be for that year.
To say as fact that it will always happen a certain way is IMO not true.
I said based on the statistics a hitter hitting .330 will be more lethal in a great lineup, than a guy hitting .250 with 200 k's. That's common sense, Steve.
1......AL? I thought he played in the NL. I don't understand this question.
2......No I saw that, I sorta agree, I feel he really has no peak yet since he has only 3 full years in the league.
(I guess one could break a 3 yr period down though) And his HR and RBI totals seem to be the same over that 3 yr period. what has changed though is the amount of hits, he seems to have had 30 less hits per 700 plate appearances.
3.....I think I answered this one earlier. I don't care how he rates as far as other players on other teams.
<< <i>Number two IMO it does not matter what other players on other teams do as far as Howard's contribution on his team. I don't like to say that player X would do Y on a certain team >>
That is not the issue. The issue is how much does Ryan Howard help the Phillies compared to how much Adrian Gonzalez helps the Padres or Hanley Ramirez helps the Marlins
We could say since the Phillies are in first place and the Padres and Marlins are fourth place teams it is obvious Howard is much more helpful. But that ignores everything all the other players on the teams do. So we look at what they did when they had the bat or glove in their hands. And when we look at that, we see that those players do more to help their team put runs on the board and do more to help stop the opponents from scoring runs as well
<< <i>Did the voters ignore every AL player and most every pitcher because they were certain Howard was better or because of tradition?
Did you purposely ignore where I said he was a lot higher during his peak (2006-07)?
Of the players listed, which ones have not helped their team more than Howard so far this year? >>
The season's only about 40% complete - Howard is having another good season, and in my opinion still a good shot at consideration for the MVP, and the Phillies are in first place in the NL East....that's what I'm gonna focus in on right now.
<< <i>lol Tom who are you asking? Me or Stevek? >>
those questions were for Steve
Ryan Howard in 2006 and 07 was simply so much better than he has been in 2008 and 09 that for his career so far we can call those years his peak. He could revert back to the higher average, higher walk rates tomorrow, but until he does he is around the 50th best player in all of Major League Baseball (which obviously means he is a lot higher when counting only NL hitters, which is what stevek did)
<< <i>Did the voters ignore every AL player and most every pitcher because they were certain Howard was better or because of tradition?
Did you purposely ignore where I said he was a lot higher during his peak (2006-07)?
Of the players listed, which ones have not helped their team more than Howard so far this year? >>
The season's only about 40% complete - Howard is having another good season, and in my opinion still a good shot at consideration for the MVP, and the Phillies are in first place in the NL East....that's what I'm gonna focus in on right now. >>
Lol.. As long as Howard has a .250 ish batting average, .330 on base %, and the 175-200 k's he sure as heck won't win the MVP.
<< <i>I am just going by what you said in a past pm. If you want to change your story, then so be it.
I just went through EVERY PM you and I ever had and I see nothing regarding me not working and on disability
I'm not changing any 'story' The fact is you are making stories up now. One could call you an effing liar.
Post in a PM to me where I made such a statement, prove it to me and I'll come here and say Tim was right I did say i was jobless and on disability.
Go ahead.
Steve >>
Steve,
You are a liar, Steve. I don't have any pms from between us anymore because last time we got into it, I deleted everything from you and blocked you since I had no desire to pm with you anymore since you and PoppaJ were playing those backstabbing games. You knew that as well, and that is why you are playing this game of denail. I don't care, you can continue to lie about what you originally told me. I won't lose any sleep over it.
<< <i>lol Tom who are you asking? Me or Stevek? >>
those questions were for Steve
Ryan Howard in 2006 and 07 was simply so much better than he has been in 2008 and 09 that for his career so far we can call those years his peak. He could revert back to the higher average, higher walk rates tomorrow, but until he does he is around the 50th best player in all of Major League Baseball (which obviously means he is a lot higher when counting only NL hitters, which is what stevek did) >>
As I'm sure you know, virtually all players go through ups and downs in their careers for a variety of reasons. I'll admit, Howard isn't playing as well as in 2006, but that was one helluva season, and perhaps that may windup being his best season ever, but perhaps he will have a better season coming - we'll see in around ten or more years from now what transpired.
My opinion is that right now Howard is on the path to the Hall of Fame, and I don't think that's debatable...but of course he's not close to being there yet....just that he's on the path.
Comments
what other people say.
If I wanted to say Pujols is the better player maybe, I'd have said it that way. But since
I know he is in fact the better player I said he "may be the better player'.........
Now do you finally get it?
Steve
<< <i>Again, why would I take Hoop up on his bet when I have agreed with him?
Learn how to read and digest what people say.
'maybe' and may be have two different meanings and their was no dancing around.
My comment was direct and to the point.
Sorry, but you mis read what was said.
Steve >>
Nice try, Steve. Obviously, hoopster logged off the boards last night becuase you would not take him up on his offer. You can't have it both ways and talk out both sides of your mouth, my friend.
Pujols is putting up better numbers with a weaker lineup in St. Louis, then there is no doubt based on the statistics that he WOULD be much better in a loaded Phillies lineup with more opportunities, not to mention playing 81 games a season in a more offensive friendly juice box.
with that theory of his when he first mentioned it almost 4 months ago.
It had nothing to do with him logging off.
Again, you have reading comprehension problems.
I'll say it again, I did not take Hoop up on his bet because I fully understand his logic in regard to how RBI
production can be compared to the amount of attempts a player gets AND the amount of players one has
on base for him to drive in compared to other players.
Hoops logic regarding free throws is spot on.
Now do you get it?
Geez I got it 4 months ago when he first mentioned it.
Why would I bet then?
Steve
If he logged off thinking it was because I wouldn't OR both of us wouldn't he was as WRONG as you are.
Steve
lol I rest my case.
Steve
<< <i>"To sum up...Howard in his first 4 seasons has led the league twice in RBI's and HR's - doesn't matter how or why he did it...he did it, and that's a fact. I didn't Google it, but I would have to believe not many if any in MLB history have achieved that,"
Also in his first 4 seasons, Howard has won one MVP and one runnerup MVP.
I'm still waiting for the two stat geniuses to explain how all this doean't have all the makings of a great player, and has this ever been accomplished by any other player in MLB history? But ahh, those silly HR's, RBI's, and MVP awards don't mean that much right geniuses?
But I guess the two geniuses are too busy reading the latest Harry Potter book which they think is an autobiography. LOL >>
You have been told numerous times, but you fail to comprehend it, so that is probably why no one will try to further explain it to you.
Howard is NOT a great player, and will never be considered a "great" player. Howard is a good homerun hitter that plays in a juice box, with an explosive offensive team around him that helps pads his numbers by having many more opportunities. Howard stole one MVP from Pujols, but that will probably be the last one, unless Howard can figure out how to hit better than .250-.260 with 200 k's per season.
"Greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
Hoopster obviously doesn't understand the intangibles that go into the game of baseball. Are stats interesting? Of course they are and as a kid and even sometimes now, I used to enjoy reading the stats on the back of baseball cards.
Hoopster needs to understand the obvious that it's players who win championships, not stats. An easy illustration of that is the1960 WS in which the Yankees clobbered the Pirates comparing statistics - but the Pirates won that WS.
And Hoopster FYI, Superman is not a real person, he is a fictional comic book character...I'm sorry to have to tell you that because in another thread you stated that you had been trying to get Superman's autograph.
If that is the 'bet' you were speaking of I never replied to it because it was stupid. Why would I let him choose my team and choose his?
What did that have to do with anything anyway?
And even if he did pick both teams and we did 'bet' is he nostradumbass? How would he know who would win more games?
So in closing I'll repeat myself so you fully understand why I did not bet. I did not take him up on his bet because it was stupid.
Steve
You left out 'that won a world championship last year and has led the league in HR and RBI in the past'.
No one is disputing that Pujols is the better, greater player. Geez you have a man crush on that guy.
What they are saying and what I agreed with is they are content with Howard on their team
What I don't understand is Hoops has said on numerous occasions that Pujols is a juicer. Why all of a sudden is that being
left out?
For the record I have no idea if he does juice or does not juice.
Steve
Says STMM as he sniffs Pujols game used jock.
Steve
<< <i>We can make a two baseball teams. I get to pick your teammates, and I also get to pick MINE. We will play each other 25 games. We can place a 15k bet on who wins more games. Only then will one understand the role of teammates.
If that is the 'bet' you were speaking of I never replied to it because it was stupid. Why would I let him choose my team and choose his?
What did that have to do with anything anyway?
And even if he did pick both teams and we did 'bet' is he nostradumbass? How would he know who would win more games?
So in closing I'll repeat myself so you fully understand why I did not bet. I did not take him up on his bet because it was stupid.
Steve >>
It's not stupid, it based on the principles you and stevek are too blind to admit you are wrong about. Nice try, once again, Steve..
<< <i>greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
Says STMM as he sniffs Pujols game used jock.
Steve >>
Oh boy, gee, here comes the juvenile comments since you can't win the debate, you guys will resort to this nonsense. It's not about sniffing anything, it's about having enough common sense to see a great hitter/player right before your very eyes. Heck, whether some of you want to admit it or not, all the baseball experts say the same things about Pujols, so it just makes your juvenile games look even more ignorant.
<< <i>it's players who win championships, not stats >>
Do you realize any one player only represents 11% of the total lineup? When you give too much credit to Howard, all it does is take away credit from Utley, Ibanez and the rest of the team
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, why would I take Hoop up on his bet when I have agreed with him?
Learn how to read and digest what people say.
'maybe' and may be have two different meanings and their was no dancing around.
My comment was direct and to the point.
Sorry, but you mis read what was said.
Steve >>
Nice try, Steve. Obviously, hoopster logged off the boards last night becuase you would not take him up on his offer. You can't have it both ways and talk out both sides of your mouth, my friend.
Pujols is putting up better numbers with a weaker lineup in St. Louis, then there is no doubt based on the statistics that he WOULD be much better in a loaded Phillies lineup with more opportunities, not to mention playing 81 games a season in a more offensive friendly juice box. >>
Yea Hoopster and his silly bet, that as silly as he is, he must know that nobody in their right mind is gonna bet 15K with some anonymous dope on an internet forum. He knows I don't gamble, but even if I did, I wouldn't bet $1 with him or anybody on an internet forum and I already clearly explained the reasons why in past threads how scammers haunt internet forums with various scams looking for suckers to place bets with. I'm not saying Hoopster is a scammer, but his "persistence" with this bet is a bit alarming to say the least. A "serious scammer" would hope for a lower counter offer and then the scam is set in place through clever ways such as escrow accounts, etc, in which the scammer is well versed on how to commit fraud. Again, I'm not saying Hoopster is a scammer, but I'll be watching.
Detective stevek
<< <i>greatness" is a once in a generation hitter like Pujols who will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. He HAS (2) MVP awards(probably more to come), led his team to the playoffs 5 times in his first 8 seasons, including 2 World Series.
Says STMM as he sniffs Pujols game used jock.
Steve >>
While he's getting a reach around from Albert?
Exactly what principles am I too blind about?
Please inform me.
I guess agreeing with you and hoop makes me wrong?
I've already said I understood (agreed) with the free throw concept.
(even though a case COULD be made that more games COULD be won by the player with more chances then the player with less chances
even if they both have the same amount of RBI) or even if the player had MORE RBI with less chances. It is unknown from year to year.
It could only be declared as FACT after the year is over and the stats properly digested. But to say it always wins more games and that always translates
into more championships is not correct and that was the crux of my argument. greatness had nothing to do with my argument.
That is what I think you and he failed to understand because you two wear blinders and see only your opinions and no one else's
I've already agreed that Pujols is the better greater player (then Howard) Repeat that 3x so it sinks in.
Not sure where you are coming from, the only thing could be is you have reading comprehension problems.
Steve
<< <i>Howard is a good homerun hitter that plays in a juice box, with an explosive offensive team around him that helps pads his numbers by having many more opportunities.
You left out 'that won a world championship last year and has led the league in HR and RBI in the past'.
No one is disputing that Pujols is the better, greater player. Geez you have a man crush on that guy.
What they are saying and what I agreed with is they are content with Howard on their team
What I don't understand is Hoops has said on numerous occasions that Pujols is a juicer. Why all of a sudden is that being
left out?
For the record I have no idea if he does juice or does not juice.
Steve >>
You know what, there is no basis for that comment other than someone pulling something out of their rear. Some have to resort to this juvenile and wreckless character attacks with not one shred of evidence to back them. Great players can do it with God given talent/ability. Musial did, and that is what Pujols does it with.
Not sure if your statement was directed at me or not.
But I think you just made my argument. I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys......I also think that has been Stevek's mantra this entire time too.
He can correct me if I am wrong.
So yes to your question.
Steve
<< <i>no it was stupid and not worth a reply.
Exactly what principles am I too blind about?
Please inform me.
I guess agreeing with you and hoop makes me wrong?
I've already said I understood (agreed) with the free throw concept.
(even though a case COULD be made that more games COULD be won by the player with more chances then the player with less chances
even if they both have the same amount of RBI) or even if the player had MORE RBI with less chances. It is unknown from year to year.
It could only be declared as FACT after the year is over and the stats properly digested. But to say it always wins more games and that always translates
into more championships is not correct and that was the crux of my argument. greatness had nothing to do with my argument.
That is what I think you and he failed to understand because you two wear blinders and see only your opinions and no one else's
I've already agreed that Pujols is the better greater player (then Howard) Repeat that 3x so it sinks in.
Not sure where you are coming from, the only thing could be is you have reading comprehension problems.
Steve >>
Yeah, this is always your escape card, Steve. You have become too predictable. Find a new one to use next time.
You need to tell Hoops that then.
Steve
Yeah, this is always your escape card, Steve. You have become too predictable. Find a new one to use next time.
Just what I thought, you can't provide it so you fall back on your typical BS
Steve
Pot meet kettle.
Steve
<< <i>Yeah, this is always your escape card, Steve. You have become too predictable. Find a new one to use next time.
Just what I thought, you can't provide it so you fall back on your typical BS
Steve >>
Provide what?
I only told the truth as to what you do, Steve. Your "escape card" is nothing new, and now I will wait for the pile on from my enemies/your buddies to start. Ah.. this place never seems to surprise me anymore.
meanings.
I also love how he has declared himself the 'winner' of this debate.
Losers usually do that.
Steve
<< <i>Tom
Not sure if your statement was directed at me or not.
But I think you just made my argument. I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys......I also think that has been Stevek's mantra this entire time too.
He can correct me if I am wrong.
So yes to your question.
Steve >>
WinPitcher knows baseball - that's not debatable.
<< <i>Oh boy, gee, here comes the juvenile comments since you can't win the debate
Pot meet kettle.
Steve >>
Prove where I used juvenile comments about jock sniffing a player's jock, like you just did..
<< <i>yeah we are supposed to listen to STTM the guy who has no idea that 'maybe' and 'may be' can, and did have two different
meanings.
I also love how he has declared himself the 'winner' of this debate.
Losers usually do that.
Steve >>
Yeah, I think 21,000+ posts in 5 years just proves you love you hear yourself.
You can start in this very thread and copy and paste. I'm sure their must be some comments I made here
that you feel I was wrong and need informing on?
Until then all you are doing is spinning which is usual for you.
My last comment in which I spelled out exactly what I was saying(last night) and how I felt in relation to this entire
subject was dismissed out of hand by you. Re read it, read it 5 times if you must.
Steve
<< <i>Provide me with the facts that you feel I need to know to be informed.
You can start in this very thread and copy and paste. I'm sure their must be some comments I made here
that you feel I was wrong and need informing on?
Until then all you are doing is spinning which is usual for you.
My last comment in which I spelled out exactly what I was saying(last night) and how I felt in relation to this entire
subject was dismissed out of hand by you. Re read it, read it 5 times if you must.
Steve >>
Steve,
I have learned that this could go on with you for days on end, becuase you don't work, and have all day to sit around and cook up more spin. Again, I think 21,000+ posts in 5 years just proves you love you hear yourself. I know there is no end to this, if I am silly enough to play along, so if you need the last word to feel better, then more power to you.
Again you need to comprehend what people are saying....
Now if you want to know how pot meet kettle fits look to your use of
this:
Here, I will make put this in a simple 1st grade explanation:
Now was that a juvenile statement? Your posts are littered with them.
And to me they were. Thus the pot meet kettle post i made.
But of course you won't see it that way.
Steve
another word you used in this thread.
"ignorant'
And when all else fails refer to the amount of posts someone has.
I was waiting for the everyone hates me thread and you finally obliged on that one.
The fact of the matter is I've agreed with you all along, only you were too dumb to realize it.
What I disagreed with is, stating as fact, someone that produces more or less RBI with more or less chances will win more games or less games
as a matter of fact. Unless the season is over, only then can it be finally digested and proved either way. And the proof would only be for that year.
To say as fact that it will always happen a certain way is IMO not true.
Steve
<< <i> I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys >>
It was directed at the idea that if Howard is equal to Ruth -- and he has only their third best player, why do they only have 35 wins?
Since we agree that players win games and win championships, why don't you just tell us where Ryan Howard ranks among all players at helping their team win? We agree he is well below Pujols. Do we also agree he is below Utley and Ibanez? How about Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, Hunter Pence, Beltran and Wright, Braun and Fielder? Has to be at the bottom of that list. Chipper Jones has so far been better. Have to put Howard above Nick Johnson, but it's close. That is only the hitters. Haren, Lincecum and a handful of other pitchers have done more to help their team win games. And that's only the NL
So when it comes to accumulating the stats that correlate with helping teams win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. When it comes to actually helping his team win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. I agree that that is very good and if you want to call it "great," feel free to do so, definitely a much better athlete than I am. Also, since Howard has come into the league, there have been years when he was even better than that, but his batting average and walk rate has dropped considerably since his peak
<< <i>
<< <i> I never said one player wins championships I said 'players'
meaning all 25 guys >>
It was directed at the idea that if Howard is equal to Ruth -- and he has only their third best player, why do they only have 35 wins?
Since we agree that players win games and win championships, why don't you just tell us where Ryan Howard ranks among all players at helping their team win? We agree he is well below Pujols. Do we also agree he is below Utley and Ibanez? How about Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, Hunter Pence, Beltran and Wright, Braun and Fielder? Has to be at the bottom of that list. Chipper Jones has so far been better. Have to put Howard above Nick Johnson, but it's close. That is only the hitters. Haren, Lincecum and a handful of other pitchers have done more to help their team win games. And that's only the NL
So when it comes to accumulating the stats that correlate with helping teams win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. When it comes to actually helping his team win, Howard is perhaps around the 50th best player in baseball. I agree that that is very good and if you want to call it "great," feel free to do so, definitely a much better athlete than I am. Also, since Howard has come into the league, there have been years when he was even better than that, but his batting average and walk rate has dropped considerably since his peak >>
Yes, you're entitled to your opinion and this is the opinion of the NL MVP award:
2006 - Ryan Howard first
2007 - Ryan Howard fifth
2008 - Ryan Howard second
funny...I don't see anything close to fifty there.
Number two IMO it does not matter what other players on other teams do as far as Howard's contribution
on his team. I don't like to say that player X would do Y on a certain team.
As far as your opinion that he is perhaps the 50th best player in the league one could look at that, and conclude he is the 3rd best on his own team
Which IMO is nothing to sneeze at. 16 teams x 3 = 48 That is of course if each team was blessed the same way, which they are not.
He could be the best player on his team and the 50th best overall too for that matter.
Thanks for replying Tom how is that collection you are trying to sell going?
Steve
Did you purposely ignore where I said he was a lot higher during his peak (2006-07)?
Of the players listed, which ones have not helped their team more than Howard so far this year?
It is actually 30 teams I was thinking of, not 16
<< <i>And for the record I do work, what an ignorant statement on your part STTM.
You stated in the past that you didn't. You claimed you was on disability
another word you used in this thread.
"ignorant'
And when all else fails refer to the amount of posts someone has.
21,000+ posts surely shows you love to hear yourself talk. Just staing the obvious..
I was waiting for the everyone hates me thread and you finally obliged on that one.
I was just stating the piling on will come in due time. It usually does on this board.
The fact of the matter is I've agreed with you all along, only you were too dumb to realize it.
You spin, twist words, and then say this. Typical
What I disagreed with is, stating as fact, someone that produces more or less RBI with more or less chances will win more games or less games
as a matter of fact. Unless the season is over, only then can it be finally digested and proved either way. And the proof would only be for that year.
To say as fact that it will always happen a certain way is IMO not true.
I said based on the statistics a hitter hitting .330 will be more lethal in a great lineup, than a guy hitting .250 with 200 k's. That's common sense, Steve.
Steve >>
I'll try to answer your questions though.
1......AL? I thought he played in the NL. I don't understand this question.
2......No I saw that, I sorta agree, I feel he really has no peak yet since he has only 3 full years in the league.
(I guess one could break a 3 yr period down though) And his HR and RBI totals seem to be the same over that 3 yr period.
what has changed though is the amount of hits, he seems to have had 30 less hits per 700 plate appearances.
3.....I think I answered this one earlier. I don't care how he rates as far as other players on other teams.
Steve
lol I think you are confused I never made any such statement.
I may have said I am on dialysis but NEVER said I was on disabilty.
I work 4 days a week I collect no disability, I'll chalk that up to you being ignorant.
Steve
<< <i>Number two IMO it does not matter what other players on other teams do as far as Howard's contribution
on his team. I don't like to say that player X would do Y on a certain team >>
That is not the issue. The issue is how much does Ryan Howard help the Phillies compared to how much Adrian Gonzalez helps the Padres or Hanley Ramirez helps the Marlins
We could say since the Phillies are in first place and the Padres and Marlins are fourth place teams it is obvious Howard is much more helpful. But that ignores everything all the other players on the teams do. So we look at what they did when they had the bat or glove in their hands. And when we look at that, we see that those players do more to help their team put runs on the board and do more to help stop the opponents from scoring runs as well
<< <i>You stated in the past that you didn't. You claimed you was on disability
lol I think you are confused I never made any such statement.
I may have said I am on dialysis but NEVER said I was on disabilty.
I work 4 days a week I collect no disability, I'll chalk that up to you being ignorant.
Steve >>
I am just going by what you said in a past pm. If you want to change your story, then so be it.
Steve
<< <i>Did the voters ignore every AL player and most every pitcher because they were certain Howard was better or because of tradition?
Did you purposely ignore where I said he was a lot higher during his peak (2006-07)?
Of the players listed, which ones have not helped their team more than Howard so far this year? >>
The season's only about 40% complete - Howard is having another good season, and in my opinion still a good shot at consideration for the MVP, and the Phillies are in first place in the NL East....that's what I'm gonna focus in on right now.
<< <i>lol Tom who are you asking? Me or Stevek? >>
those questions were for Steve
Ryan Howard in 2006 and 07 was simply so much better than he has been in 2008 and 09 that for his career so far we can call those years his peak. He could revert back to the higher average, higher walk rates tomorrow, but until he does he is around the 50th best player in all of Major League Baseball (which obviously means he is a lot higher when counting only NL hitters, which is what stevek did)
<< <i>
<< <i>Did the voters ignore every AL player and most every pitcher because they were certain Howard was better or because of tradition?
Did you purposely ignore where I said he was a lot higher during his peak (2006-07)?
Of the players listed, which ones have not helped their team more than Howard so far this year? >>
The season's only about 40% complete - Howard is having another good season, and in my opinion still a good shot at consideration for the MVP, and the Phillies are in first place in the NL East....that's what I'm gonna focus in on right now. >>
Lol.. As long as Howard has a .250 ish batting average, .330 on base %, and the 175-200 k's he sure as heck won't win the MVP.
I just went through EVERY PM you and I ever had and I see nothing regarding me not working and on disability
I'm not changing any 'story' The fact is you are making stories up now. One could call you an effing liar.
Post in a PM to me where I made such a statement, prove it to me and I'll come here and say Tim was right
I did say i was jobless and on disability.
Go ahead.
Steve
<< <i>I am just going by what you said in a past pm. If you want to change your story, then so be it.
I just went through EVERY PM you and I ever had and I see nothing regarding me not working and on disability
I'm not changing any 'story' The fact is you are making stories up now. One could call you an effing liar.
Post in a PM to me where I made such a statement, prove it to me and I'll come here and say Tim was right
I did say i was jobless and on disability.
Go ahead.
Steve >>
Steve,
You are a liar, Steve. I don't have any pms from between us anymore because last time we got into it, I deleted everything from you and blocked you since I had no desire to pm with you anymore since you and PoppaJ were playing those backstabbing games. You knew that as well, and that is why you are playing this game of denail. I don't care, you can continue to lie about what you originally told me. I won't lose any sleep over it.
<< <i>
<< <i>lol Tom who are you asking? Me or Stevek? >>
those questions were for Steve
Ryan Howard in 2006 and 07 was simply so much better than he has been in 2008 and 09 that for his career so far we can call those years his peak. He could revert back to the higher average, higher walk rates tomorrow, but until he does he is around the 50th best player in all of Major League Baseball (which obviously means he is a lot higher when counting only NL hitters, which is what stevek did) >>
As I'm sure you know, virtually all players go through ups and downs in their careers for a variety of reasons. I'll admit, Howard isn't playing as well as in 2006, but that was one helluva season, and perhaps that may windup being his best season ever, but perhaps he will have a better season coming - we'll see in around ten or more years from now what transpired.
My opinion is that right now Howard is on the path to the Hall of Fame, and I don't think that's debatable...but of course he's not close to being there yet....just that he's on the path.