<< <i>I have a patient of mine who is a b & m coin dealer. he barely has a pot to piss in. I doubt this kind of behavior that the op describes
happens very often. With nearly every home having a computor it would only take 15 minutes to determine if a certain coin could be of value.
Even a novice can determine if a coin is rare or not >>
I do not know about you, but I have personally witnessed these types of rip offs from dealers, but at comic book stores. Often the amount of comics stops people from researching each one and they go in "trusting" they will get some level of decency and honesty.
I want to speak up but know it is not my place as I do not own the store. I just never go back and usually the shops that I dislike over the years go out of business. The honest ones are normally around until the owner moves on or passes away.
One reason dealers make a lowish offer on bulk lots is the time that would be required to really evalute the coins one by one. Yes, the dealer should know his stuff, but it may not be reasonable to value 15 sets of coins in five minutes. The coins could be fake/ altered or have other hidden problems that not even an expert would see if he had 15 sets of coins plop down at once. The quick offer could really turn into a paid for apprasial, most dealers would charge for this, and it's not the same as a quick offer that most people expect when they walk into a store with coins for sale. Do you want me to charge you 100/hour first and you must pay even If i don't buy the coins, and then make an offer after that?
And aside from the rare dates, he's going to have a ton of coins that no one really wants and he will have to sit on those for ever or sell them to a bullion dealer.
One day a horror story 364 days of little action but the guy still has to pay the rent, lights, phones, taxes, insurance, permits, office supplies, toilet supplies, coin supplies. Wouldn't you just hate to be a business man in America today ?
"and to think, once upon a time, i thought coin shops existed to sell coins. little did i know that the sheer majority of them exist to rip off people walking in their doors on a daily basis."
Most exist to buy coins but not all of them are crooks. In my area a dealer advertises on TV quite a bit but his usual pitch is "buying" with a big emphesis on gold these days (of course). Anything in gold he is interested in.
I was in my local B&M a few years ago when a woman came in to sell a few generic gold bullion coins. The owner called an 800 number for the day's spot gold price, and put the call on the speaker so the customer could hear it too. That's the kind of guy who will repeatedly get my business.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I have only one B&M within 25 miles of my home. When I got back into collecting a year ago I sold them most of my duplicate silver quarters (about 3 rolls) worth at 5x face. I then bought some raw morgans they had displayed. After a few months of lurking on these boards and joining my local coin club, I realized what a mistake I had made. I sold without realizing what I had, and bought without researching what I was interested in. I still don't know for sure what I sold, but ebay was getting 9x face at the time. What I bought were polished morgans worth nothing more than melt, yet I paid $ 30 -40 each for them.
Needless to say, I wrote off that B&M for a long time until recently when I stopped in again to look for some small darkside gold. After looking for sometime and finding nothing less than 50% over spot for XF I was about to leave and asked for a price on a 1917 Sovereign in AU. She quoted $ 229 (less than melt today) and I quickly said yes. Then she realized her misquote and said "Oh wait a minute" but she quickly understood she had already made and I had accepted the offer. So she ended up selling it to me at that price without another word from either of us. Did I feel bad ? Not at all. Did they feel bad about giving me 30 % less than greysheet on my quarters or selling me overpriced raw Morgans ? Not at all.
manofcoins- I visit 3 local dealers on a regular basis. All of them are nice and fair to me, but when the unimformed walk thru the door ( 90 percent or higher) they all take what he offers to pay. They will take the offer EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW THE OFFER IS REAL LOW because they have to pay a bill, bail someone out of jail, or take care of an emergency. They do not have the luxury of listing it on the internet or driving around for hours looking for the other 2 coin stores around.
I rarely visit one of the local coin stores because i was there when an 80 plus year old woman came in with a box of Texas commens. You could tell they have been sitting in a safety deposit box for 50 plus years. I see them, they were absolutely gorgeous, some toned and all probably 66 or better. She was offered 35 bucks apiece. There appeared to be over 20 of them there. She had other old silver and gold coins for sale. The owner went to the back to get a book or something and i told the woman she was about to get ripped off. She told me her daugther had to have some cash asap and did not care.
Most people that i see that go to the local B&M to sell coins are in need of money and they know they are getting ripped but they can not do anything about it.
I saw a 45 year old woman (approx) sell over 2k in gold jewelry to a coin store on Thrusday. Included watches, rings, chains and what not. I am sure that it amounted to probably 20k when it was purchased at retail over the pased 15 or so years. She sold 90 percent of what she went inside with. She found this coin shop because the owner advertises in her church newsletter or something like that. She walked out the door and got into a late model Escalade. This coin dealer based his offer on gold being 940 an ounce. She really did not get ripped off but damn that was a hit on the original cost. She must have needed money for something.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I live in the area and I'll be happy to "out" this guy because he's a major jackarse. Not just because of this story but from personal experience as well. Its called The Coin Store on Route 22 in Greenbrook. I was in there once and I'll never go back. Ask Tightbudget as I told him the story a few weeks ago. The guy's stuff is overpriced and overgraded and he has an attitude if you try and bargain. I'm very disappointed in those defending him just because he has a B&M shop with overhead. That is never an excuse.
The problem with the Central Jersey guy is that he hates copper and seems to make his money trading gold and silver (as most are these days). These B&Ms should close up and open precious metals trading desks the way things are going these days. Every time I walk in one, inevitably a mother dragging her 3 kids or a senior citizen is hocking something. It's very sad.
<< <i> I saw a 45 year old woman (approx) sell over 2k in gold jewelry to a coin store on Thrusday. Included watches, rings, chains and what not. I am sure that it amounted to probably 20k when it was purchased at retail over the pased 15 or so years. She sold 90 percent of what she went inside with. She found this coin shop because the owner advertises in her church newsletter or something like that. She walked out the door and got into a late model Escalade. This coin dealer based his offer on gold being 940 an ounce. She really did not get ripped off but damn that was a hit on the original cost. She must have needed money for something. >>
wow, It's too bad when people are in dire situations they'll make irrational decisions. Let's say, for example she is in bad debt. Someone thinking soundly would guess the first thing to do would be to get rid of the Escalade(if there is a payment). I have friends that admit to being one paycheck from ruin yet they own a pair of $500-600/mo car payments.
There are two local B&Ms here and very different. One I started dealing with when I started collecting. His inventory is absolutley phenomenal. Just about anything you want in any grade he has. Back about 9 years ago when I was 29 yrs old I bought occasional circ crap. One time he told me that I was wasting his time looking through binders of circulated mercs and such and he'd rather me look elsewhere unless I was going to spend at least $100. The final straw a few months later I inquired if he had a 1909-s VDB cent. He and another regular customer there started laughing at me and he said I couldn't afford a 1909-s VDB. I took my money and left and didn't return for years. I went back last year to buy a certified saint and I swear he acted like he'd roll out a red carpet to my car when I handed him 12 C-notes.
<< <i>There are two local B&Ms here and very different. One I started dealing with when I started collecting. His inventory is absolutley phenomenal. Just about anything you want in any grade he has. Back about 9 years ago when I was 29 yrs old I bought occasional circ crap. One time he told me that I was wasting his time looking through binders of circulated mercs and such and he'd rather me look elsewhere unless I was going to spend at least $100. The final straw a few months later I inquired if he had a 1909-s VDB cent. He and another regular customer there started laughing at me and he said I couldn't afford a 1909-s VDB. I took my money and left and didn't return for years. I went back last year to buy a certified saint and I swear he acted like he'd roll out a red carpet to my car when I handed him 12 C-notes. >>
I had a similar experience with a shop in Albuquerque. I had just started back into collecting after about a 25 year hiatus when I went into a particular shop to check out their inventory. I returned once after checking out one of their boxes of 2x2 flips full of IHC's... there was a pretty nice 1871 that I was keen on and had brought enough cash to make a purchase. When I asked to see them again, the proprietor simply told me that nothing had changed and he was pretty short with me. I responded with something like "I thought you might have wanted to sell something" and I left... and never went back.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
<< <i>I have a patient of mine who is a b & m coin dealer. He barely has a pot to piss in. I doubt this kind of behavior that the op describes
happens very often. >>
What planet do you live on? I have seen this happen often in B & M coin shops! I've saw a widow bring in a complete Mercury dime collection and only be offered spot silver for the coins. When I informed her that her 1916-D alone was worth 10 times more than the dealer offered for the entire collection, I was thrown out of the shop, a major dealer in downtown Chicago.
ADAM The name is Adam Webber and I see you buy baseball cards and although these are a lot older than the ones in the window, I was hoping you still might be interested.
He flips open the cigar box to reveal to Jerry riches beyond his wildest dreams. Jerry actually moans and then must pretend the moan was a cough.
JERRY How--how much do you want for the Mickey Mantle, rookie season?
ADAM I was thinking of selling all the cards.
JERRY Really? No kidding?
He reaches in and looks through the cards.
ADAM See, my problem is, all I have are hundred dollar bills and I need something smaller. Ones, fives, tens. Like that.
JERRY I see what ya mean. Tell you what...I'll give you five hundred dollars in small bills for the whole box.
ADAM Oh, that would be wonderful!
JERRY Well, we're here to help!
A woman steps into the shot. She has come from the back of the store and her back is momentarily to us.
EVE (OC) Oh, s***!
Adam turns to her and is immediately awe struck. We reveal EVE RUSTOKOV. She tosses her lipstick into her purse. Eve works in the card shop and is on her way out.
JERRY I'm workin' here, Evey-poo. Don't screw me up.
ADAM Bon soir, mademoiselle!
EVE Are you French?
ADAM No. (then, thinking fast) I'm from out of town. (then sensing the need for further clarification) I'm here on business.
EVE Well, your business must not be sports memorabilia, because this one Mantle card right here-- (holds up a card) --is worth six thousand dollars all by its little self.
Someday, somehow when this "dealer" least expects - something really bad will take place in his/ her life & he won't like it ONE BIT.... and then ....
In his moments of silent reflection, particularly as he grows closer to the end of this worldly existence, he'll remember and he'll truly regret any & every one he's EVER wronged because IN THE END, not one material thing matters, AT ALL.
Faced with one's own end and the Reality of Eternity takes over - it will occur to him and hopefully (for his sake) somehow he'll have an opportunity to tip the scales of Justice somewhere close to the vicinity of equal.
Nothing makes reality register with crystal clarity the way knowing Death is coming very soon does.
No amount of money will save anyone. Rich or poor, powerful or not, we ALL face the same common end from which there is NO escape! >>
<< <i>Ok, this thread is not attempting to make local B&Ms look bad, shady, or whatever you want to call it. Most are up front and honest people. I'm just curious if anyone else has seen dealings like this one.
Quick story that happened to me today.... I'm going through a small group of mixed series at a local B&M in NJ near where I live and a two kids (18 to 19 years old) walk in. They have a few old half dollar books (15 to 20) which they wish to sell. The owner goes through the books and is sure to point out how warn the coins are. He even pulled out a 40's MS-66 so that they can see the difference between conditions. He then offers them silver spot which they accept and then leave. After they leave he gets on the phone and tells the person on the other end that he just got SEVERAL 1921 P, D, S, in XF-AU and to stop by. After he gets off the phone I ask to see his pick-up. I couldn't believe my eyes when he showed me 15 different 1921's P, D, and S ranging from F to BU. There was also a bunch of 1916's and so on. I asked him if he felt bad ripping off those kids. He got a little pissed and said something like they were adults who should have researched what they had before selling it. I figure he walked away with several thousand dollars. True, the kids should have pick up a price guide which he did have several on the counter. I like the store because there is a very large inventory of raw stuff comimg in all the time but this situation left a bad taste in my mouth. >>
I don't know what's worse, the above scenario, or someone that would screw people on a charity.
It's a pity there are no pictures. People are putting a lot of validity in a typed story. I horse around with the forums a lot because something I was taught went like this :
Do not believe everything you read, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
It's unbelieveable to me that two teens walked in with 15 to 20 Walking liberty albums full of every key date in mulitiples. I am sorry to doubt this.
<< <i>It's a pity there are no pictures. People are putting a lot of validity in a typed story. I horse around with the forums a lot because something I was taught went like this :
Do not believe everything you read, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
It's unbelieveable to me that two teens walked in with 15 to 20 Walking liberty albums full of every key date in mulitiples. I am sorry to doubt this. >>
I remember when I first read the post thinking that I have not seen "several 1921-PDS halves in XF/AU" (dealer's words) in my entire career, but as he later clarified that to read "Fine to BU" (his words) I guess it it possible. You just don't see those dates in XF/AU.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Hey edix2001.....nice memory from the movie "Blast from the Past"...almost forgot about that one........ >>
Movie scripts are fairly plentiful online. I posted that just to show that crooked collectibles dealers are easily recognized for the scoundrels that they are, no need to parse words or to concoct absurd hypothetical scenarios where their conduct is justified.
This is a longshot, but there was a $500,000 coin theft in West Windsor, NJ in December. Those coins are likely still floating around out there, unless they have since been recovered. Here is a link.
Edited to add: you may want to place a call to the West Windsor police. They may be more interested than your local police. West Windsor is less than 1 hr. drive from the scene of the Walking Liberty scandal you are reporting. Presumably, the shop owner obtained identification from the two kids before buying the coins, as is customary in reputable coin businesses. Otherwise, it may end up being his loss if the police get involved.
Contrast this to when I was 12 years old and found a "really old quarter" in change from a Saturday afternoon matinee. Something told me I should keep the coin and not get candy & popcorn. I mentioned it to my father, and the next weekend, we went to a local coin shop. The dealer complimented me on saving that "really old quarter." It was a 1932. He looked at it, and then told me to flip it over. I did. He asked me whether I saw anything below the eagle. I said I saw an 'S.' He smiled and said, you know what that's worth? I had no idea.
He got a current Redbook, showed me how to use it, and went to the page. He showed me how to handle coins, explained why I should put them in 2 by 2 flips, and suggested that I buy a current Redbook. 45 years later, largely thanks to him, I am still collecting coins.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
If I were the dealer I'd be concerned about a charge for receiving stolen property. Maybe the kids were drug addicts and lifted the coins from somewhere. Coins like that are not something that you are likely to find in an old dresser drawer.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>So, what really happened was the kids stole somebody's valuable coin collection and a coin dealer helped them fence the stolen goods. I'm not surprised at all. If Bernie Madoff can do it, then so should anyone else be able to. >>
Well I have my own quick story. I just move back into town 2 months ago after finishing school and I immediatly get back into collecting. I first return and touch base with my favorite dealer. Best place I've found around here and we've always done excellent business both ways for many many years. Willing to work with you, show you anything you want, grey/green sheets etc. He's got my business till he's gone. Anyway, I decided that after all these years I'll go visit a shop I've never been to 30 mins outside the city. Within a few seconds of walking in, I can see the owner behind the counter at his desk with 2 older individuals going through there holdings. He's sorta tossing stuff this way that way shaking his head. They asked questions regarding some pieces and he just kind of grumbled writing down his purchase price. I tried to peek at what they had, but couldn't get a look. He quoted them a price and they accepted. There was one other individual in the shop watching from afar holding a couple PCGS boxes so I figure he's there to talk to the owner next. When the couple accepts the check and leaves, the guy runs behind the counter and they start looking through everything. All I keep hearing is "Holy crap, check this one out", "Woah! Check I can't believe this one...", among other quotes, and to top it off, the final one was something in regards to one of them holding a slab up and saying something to the effect of "This one here just paid for darn near this entire lot". I about fell over. In the meantime, I'm still standing there trying to see a couple things in the cases. I ask to see this Large Size National Note and SLQ. He quoted me prices off the chart. I don't even feel like countering. I said yeah, I'm outta here. Never again. I've later found out he's not the best in the area here because of things like that. Funny thing is, this happened a couple weeks ago. Craziness.
I think the kids are more wrong than the dealer. The dealer has to make a living and pay the bills which I am sure is a lot harder these days with ebay, the internet, and forums the BST. He probably made the low ball offer expecting them to ask for a better deal. When they just took his first offer, they screwed themselves over moreso than the dealer did.
Like edix said, there is a 99% likelihood the coins were stolen and the kids just wanted to get what they could. Even if the coins were obtained legally, like through inheritance the kids were still too lazy to check the values. Its not a dealers job to excuse a persons laziness.
How many of us have sold on EBAY and gotten a better price then we ever expected we would get? ALL of us. And we take it, we dont worry that the buyer could have found that coin cheaper elsewhere. The kids were stupid, obviously didnt buy those coins themsleves, and wanted to take the lazy, quick way to a few bucks. They got what they deserved and the dealer shouldnt feel a bit bad. He has to pay the bills.
I'm not sure that the EBay comparison is valid. That is the nature of an auction - sold to the highest bidder, If someone wants something really bad and is willing to pay the $ for it, great. That's part of the reason you sell things at auction - you also run the risk of it selling for a lot less than what you expected.
As far as placing blame on the dealer or the kids, I've been trying to come up with similar situations in more mainstream businesses but couldn't think of anything concrete - just other collectibles, jewelers, etc. True, the dealer is in business to make money and it is his prerogative to maximize his profit, but it should be done in an ethical way, regardless of how the seller may or may not have come to possess the coins. While dealers are in business to make a profit, they are also viewed as authorities by the uninformed public. Taking a little extra profit for your expertise is one thing, but blatantly ripping someone off is another. Something tells me that if this was a little old lady selling her deceased husband's collection, the result would have been similar, and that is the problem I have with this scenario. It's a question of character - and I for one would do my best to stay away from someone who chooses to do business in this way. Just not somebody I can trust.
About 6-7 years ago I was in a local pawn shop, a guy came in and had a tube of circ Morgans. The dealer flipped through them very quickly and offered him $7 each. He paid the guy and I offered the dealer $8 each, he sold me the tube. As I was driving home I was checking out the coins and there was a 1893-S in there! Graded a VF30 at PCGS. Should I have called the dealer and told him I just got a $4500 coin from him for $8?
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later.
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>About 6-7 years ago I was in a local pawn shop, a guy came in and had a tube of circ Morgans. The dealer flipped through them very quickly and offered him $7 each. He paid the guy and I offered the dealer $8 each, he sold me the tube. As I was driving home I was checking out the coins and there was a 1893-S in there! Graded a VF30 at PCGS. Should I have called the dealer and told him I just got a $4500 coin from him for $8?
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later. >>
Hmm. This is very interesting regarding the 1893-S. Shouldn't most dealers know of the key dates, of which the 1893-S is certainly one?
<< <i>About 6-7 years ago I was in a local pawn shop, a guy came in and had a tube of circ Morgans. The dealer flipped through them very quickly and offered him $7 each. He paid the guy and I offered the dealer $8 each, he sold me the tube. As I was driving home I was checking out the coins and there was a 1893-S in there! Graded a VF30 at PCGS. Should I have called the dealer and told him I just got a $4500 coin from him for $8?
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later. >>
Hmm. This is very interesting regarding the 1893-S. Shouldn't most dealers know of the key dates, of which the 1893-S is certainly one? >>
I believe it was a hyporthetical.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
(quote) "I didn't know that there were so many Shirlock (sic) Holmes on these forums ready to declare coins stolen based on an internet post. You guys are amazing. "
I didn't know there were so many people willing to believe yet another "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when..." story based on an internet post.
For starters, even if the story's true... teenage kids + rare coins= STOLEN. Therefore you have a thief ripping off other thieves. I'm not heartbroken over that. I call that poetic justice for the little scumballs. Maybe the dealer suspected that the stuff was hot, so he lowballed it on purpose to cover himself. Of course a smart dealer would just pass the deal because he wouldn't want the cops coming in, taking the stuff and then he'd be out the coins and the money, regardless of what was paid. Or better yet, he could act like he's writing up the deal, ask them for ID, record the info, then go "OH, no, I forgot I ran my cash to the bank, come back in an hour", and have the cops waiting for them when they return (and supply them the ID info if they don't).
What I really find amusing is that from being a longtime lurker here, I know well that many of the people showing all the righteous indignation here would themselves buy such a deal in a heartbeat if it were offered to them, and then come brag about it here, to boot. "I bought a bunch of junk silver halves and guess what I found!"...hypocritical much? And spare me the "oh no, I would have looked up each piece beforehand and paid all the money" stuff.
<< <i>(quote) "I didn't know that there were so many Shirlock (sic) Holmes on these forums ready to declare coins stolen based on an internet post. You guys are amazing. "
I didn't know there were so many people willing to believe yet another "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when..." story based on an internet post.
For starters, even if the story's true... teenage kids + rare coins= STOLEN. Therefore you have a thief ripping off other thieves. I'm not heartbroken over that. I call that poetic justice for the little scumballs. Maybe the dealer suspected that the stuff was hot, so he lowballed it on purpose to cover himself. Of course a smart dealer would just pass the deal because he wouldn't want the cops coming in, taking the stuff and then he'd be out the coins and the money, regardless of what was paid. Or better yet, he could act like he's writing up the deal, ask them for ID, record the info, then go "OH, no, I forgot I ran my cash to the bank, come back in an hour", and have the cops waiting for them when they return (and supply them the ID info if they don't).
What I really find amusing is that from being a longtime lurker here, I know well that many of the people showing all the righteous indignation here would themselves buy such a deal in a heartbeat if it were offered to them, and then come brag about it here, to boot. "I bought a bunch of junk silver halves and guess what I found!"...hypocritical much? And spare me the "oh no, I would have looked up each piece beforehand and paid all the money" stuff. >>
You, sir, are way out of line if your comments are directed at me...
First off, I didn't infer any such thing about "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when".
Second, who is to say that these coins weren't left to them by a relative? I know that I was handed over my grandfather's collection to do with what I pleased when I was a young teenager -- would I have been accused by the forum police of stealing those coins if I tried to sell them to the local B&M? The facts are that you really have no idea if the coins were stolen or not and it is an assumption by you (and the other Shirlock Homes), based on an internet post, that they were. Thankfully, our justice system is founded on the basis that you are innocent until proven guilty, and not on flawed logic and presumption of guilt.
Third, I would never and have never purchased an unsearched group of coins from anyone with the hope of profiting through cherrypicking. I have no desire to rip people off for my own personal gain, and yes I know how the B&M junk silver market works -- which is why I choose not to participate.
If your comments weren't directed at me, I apologize, and would respectfully suggest you not quote me if that is not your intent....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I was referring to the story in the OP, Mike, and merely used your comment as a model for my followup sentence immediately thereafter. The post wasn't directed at you in the slightest; I was speaking generally... you stated you couldn't believe people made assumptions about the items being stolen, and I similarly stated I couldn't believe people made assumptions that the story was even true in the first place...I hear these things all the time, and if they were all true then all dealers must be crooks who rip off kids, widows, orphans, cripples, and eat puppies for lunch.
PS...my assumption that the coins were likely stolen is an educated one that comes from 26 years of experience as a fulltime B&M dealer.
Comments
<< <i>what is the reason for keeping the store's name secret? >>
I'd imagine a defamation suit, based on what I've read ?
<< <i>I have a patient of mine who is a b & m coin dealer. he barely has a pot to piss in. I doubt this kind of behavior that the op describes
happens very often. With nearly every home having a computor it would only take 15 minutes to determine if a certain coin could be of value.
Even a novice can determine if a coin is rare or not >>
I do not know about you, but I have personally witnessed these
types of rip offs from dealers, but at comic book stores. Often the
amount of comics stops people from researching each one and they
go in "trusting" they will get some level of decency and honesty.
I want to speak up but know it is not my place as I do not own the
store. I just never go back and usually the shops that I dislike over
the years go out of business. The honest ones are normally around
until the owner moves on or passes away.
And aside from the rare dates, he's going to have a ton of coins that no one really wants and he will have to sit on those for ever or sell them to a bullion dealer.
I know of no way kids of that age could be in possession of those items without them knowing what they had
even if they inherited them, there frequently are enough relatives that someone would tell them value
or try to sell them for heirs
364 days of little action but the guy still has to pay the rent, lights, phones, taxes, insurance, permits, office supplies, toilet supplies, coin supplies. Wouldn't you just hate to be a business man in America today ?
Let's run 'em all out of town. The ba$htoids
Edit to put in the Joisey accent.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
coins. little did i know that the sheer majority of them exist to rip
off people walking in their doors on a daily basis."
Most exist to buy coins but not all of them are crooks. In my area a dealer advertises on TV quite a bit but his usual pitch
is "buying" with a big emphesis on gold these days (of course). Anything in gold he is interested in.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Then this one must be the former Hillsborough guy. He runs adds in the paper all the time for buying gold.
Needless to say, I wrote off that B&M for a long time until recently when I stopped in again to look for some small darkside gold. After looking for sometime and finding nothing less than 50% over spot for XF I was about to leave and asked for a price on a 1917 Sovereign in AU. She quoted $ 229 (less than melt today) and I quickly said yes. Then she realized her misquote and said "Oh wait a minute" but she quickly understood she had already made and I had accepted the offer. So she ended up selling it to me at that price without another word from either of us. Did I feel bad ? Not at all. Did they feel bad about giving me 30 % less than greysheet on my quarters or selling me overpriced raw Morgans ? Not at all.
Live and Learn
<< <i>Let's run 'em all out of town. The ba$htoids
Edit to put in the Joisey accent. >>
How, exactly, is this a Jersey accent? Bashtoids??? I haved in NJ many years and have not heard that one.
merse
I rarely visit one of the local coin stores because i was there when an 80 plus year old woman came in with a box of Texas commens. You could tell they have been sitting in a safety deposit box for 50 plus years. I see them, they were absolutely gorgeous, some toned and all probably 66 or better. She was offered 35 bucks apiece. There appeared to be over 20 of them there. She had other old silver and gold coins for sale. The owner went to the back to get a book or something and i told the woman she was about to get ripped off. She told me her daugther had to have some cash asap and did not care.
Most people that i see that go to the local B&M to sell coins are in need of money and they know they are getting ripped but they can not do anything about it.
I saw a 45 year old woman (approx) sell over 2k in gold jewelry to a coin store on Thrusday. Included watches, rings, chains and what not. I am sure that it amounted to probably 20k when it was purchased at retail over the pased 15 or so years. She sold 90 percent of what she went inside with. She found this coin shop because the owner advertises in her church newsletter or something like that. She walked out the door and got into a late model Escalade. This coin dealer based his offer on gold being 940 an ounce. She really did not get ripped off but damn that was a hit on the original cost. She must have needed money for something.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's run 'em all out of town. The ba$htoids
Edit to put in the Joisey accent. >>
How, exactly, is this a Jersey accent? Bashtoids??? I haved in NJ many years and have not heard that one.
I was thinking of the two little boids sittin' on da coib, choipin' and a boipin' and a eatin' doity woims down on Toyty Toid and Toyed.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Man, I cringe everytime I hear someone say they'll just take all their coins to the local dealer.
Just hang out in shops long enough - it doesn't matter what the names are or where they're located -
and you'll soon learn the dealer's game/ pitch. How many times I've heard the same old thing, it never
ceases to amaze me.
I must say that I really got off this one particular time this big, strapping guy came in with a suitcase
filled with nothing but certified coins and a chitload of Gold. He basically just plopped it down on the counter,
kept quiet and stood ther while the dealer made a complete fool of himself.
Turn out the guy really knew his stuff, closed the suitcase and walked out.
It took all I had to keep from bustin' out laughing! I'm not too sure my lip wasn't bleeding from biting it so hard!
YES!!
I live in the area and I'll be happy to "out" this guy because he's a major jackarse. Not just because of this story but from personal experience as well. Its called The Coin Store on Route 22 in Greenbrook. I was in there once and I'll never go back. Ask Tightbudget as I told him the story a few weeks ago. The guy's stuff is overpriced and overgraded and he has an attitude if you try and bargain. I'm very disappointed in those defending him just because he has a B&M shop with overhead. That is never an excuse.
The problem with the Central Jersey guy is that he hates copper and seems to make his money trading gold and silver (as most are these days). These B&Ms should close up and open precious metals trading desks the way things are going these days. Every time I walk in one, inevitably a mother dragging her 3 kids or a senior citizen is hocking something. It's very sad.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
<< <i>
I saw a 45 year old woman (approx) sell over 2k in gold jewelry to a coin store on Thrusday. Included watches, rings, chains and what not. I am sure that it amounted to probably 20k when it was purchased at retail over the pased 15 or so years. She sold 90 percent of what she went inside with. She found this coin shop because the owner advertises in her church newsletter or something like that. She walked out the door and got into a late model Escalade. This coin dealer based his offer on gold being 940 an ounce. She really did not get ripped off but damn that was a hit on the original cost. She must have needed money for something. >>
wow, It's too bad when people are in dire situations they'll make irrational decisions. Let's say, for example she is in bad debt. Someone thinking soundly would guess the first thing to do would be to get rid of the Escalade(if there is a payment). I have friends that admit to being one paycheck from ruin yet they own a pair of $500-600/mo car payments.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>There are two local B&Ms here and very different. One I started dealing with when I started collecting. His inventory is absolutley phenomenal. Just about anything you want in any grade he has. Back about 9 years ago when I was 29 yrs old I bought occasional circ crap. One time he told me that I was wasting his time looking through binders of circulated mercs and such and he'd rather me look elsewhere unless I was going to spend at least $100. The final straw a few months later I inquired if he had a 1909-s VDB cent. He and another regular customer there started laughing at me and he said I couldn't afford a 1909-s VDB. I took my money and left and didn't return for years. I went back last year to buy a certified saint and I swear he acted like he'd roll out a red carpet to my car when I handed him 12 C-notes. >>
I had a similar experience with a shop in Albuquerque. I had just started back into collecting after about a 25 year hiatus when I went into a particular shop to check out their inventory. I returned once after checking out one of their boxes of 2x2 flips full of IHC's... there was a pretty nice 1871 that I was keen on and had brought enough cash to make a purchase. When I asked to see them again, the proprietor simply told me that nothing had changed and he was pretty short with me. I responded with something like "I thought you might have wanted to sell something" and I left... and never went back.
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<< <i>I have a patient of mine who is a b & m coin dealer. He barely has a pot to piss in. I doubt this kind of behavior that the op describes
happens very often. >>
What planet do you live on? I have seen this happen often in B & M coin shops! I've saw a widow bring in a complete Mercury dime collection and only be offered spot silver for the coins. When I informed her that her 1916-D alone was worth 10 times more than the dealer offered for the entire collection, I was thrown out of the shop, a major dealer in downtown Chicago.
The name is Adam Webber and I see you
buy baseball cards and although these
are a lot older than the ones in the
window, I was hoping you still might
be interested.
He flips open the cigar box to reveal to Jerry riches
beyond his wildest dreams. Jerry actually moans and then
must pretend the moan was a cough.
JERRY
How--how much do you want for the
Mickey Mantle, rookie season?
ADAM
I was thinking of selling all the
cards.
JERRY
Really? No kidding?
He reaches in and looks through the cards.
ADAM
See, my problem is, all I have are
hundred dollar bills and I need
something smaller. Ones, fives, tens.
Like that.
JERRY
I see what ya mean. Tell you
what...I'll give you five hundred
dollars in small bills for the whole
box.
ADAM
Oh, that would be wonderful!
JERRY
Well, we're here to help!
A woman steps into the shot. She has come from the back
of the store and her back is momentarily to us.
EVE (OC)
Oh, s***!
Adam turns to her and is immediately awe struck. We
reveal EVE RUSTOKOV. She tosses her lipstick into her
purse. Eve works in the card shop and is on her way out.
JERRY
I'm workin' here, Evey-poo. Don't
screw me up.
ADAM
Bon soir, mademoiselle!
EVE
Are you French?
ADAM
No.
(then, thinking fast)
I'm from out of town.
(then sensing the need for
further clarification)
I'm here on business.
EVE
Well, your business must not be sports
memorabilia, because this one Mantle
card right here--
(holds up a card)
--is worth six thousand dollars all by
its little self.
ADAM
Get out of here!
EVE
No, you get out of here.
She closes his cigar box and gives it to him.
JERRY
Terrific...you're fired! You know
that?!
EVE
No, ferry--excuse me, Jerry, I quit.
<< <i>Kharma - what goes around comes around.
Someday, somehow when this "dealer" least expects -
something really bad will take place in his/ her life & he
won't like it ONE BIT.... and then ....
In his moments of silent reflection, particularly as he grows
closer to the end of this worldly existence, he'll remember
and he'll truly regret any & every one he's EVER wronged
because IN THE END, not one material thing matters, AT ALL.
Faced with one's own end and the Reality of Eternity takes
over - it will occur to him and hopefully (for his sake) somehow
he'll have an opportunity to tip the scales of Justice somewhere
close to the vicinity of equal.
Nothing makes reality register with crystal clarity the way knowing
Death is coming very soon does.
No amount of money will save anyone. Rich or poor, powerful or not,
we ALL face the same common end from which there is NO escape! >>
I have a new avatar for you.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
<< <i>Ok, this thread is not attempting to make local B&Ms look bad, shady, or whatever you want to call it. Most are up front and honest people. I'm just curious if anyone else has seen dealings like this one.
Quick story that happened to me today.... I'm going through a small group of mixed series at a local B&M in NJ near where I live and a two kids (18 to 19 years old) walk in. They have a few old half dollar books (15 to 20) which they wish to sell. The owner goes through the books and is sure to point out how warn the coins are. He even pulled out a 40's MS-66 so that they can see the difference between conditions. He then offers them silver spot which they accept and then leave. After they leave he gets on the phone and tells the person on the other end that he just got SEVERAL 1921 P, D, S, in XF-AU and to stop by. After he gets off the phone I ask to see his pick-up. I couldn't believe my eyes when he showed me 15 different 1921's P, D, and S ranging from F to BU. There was also a bunch of 1916's and so on. I asked him if he felt bad ripping off those kids. He got a little pissed and said something like they were adults who should have researched what they had before selling it. I figure he walked away with several thousand dollars. True, the kids should have pick up a price guide which he did have several on the counter. I like the store because there is a very large inventory of raw stuff comimg in all the time but this situation left a bad taste in my mouth. >>
I don't know what's worse, the above scenario, or someone that would screw people on a charity.
And your comment about the dealer making thousands is grossly understated.
I have never met a dealer that did not make low-ball offers, but if the dealer is from NJ the offers will always be comical in a criminal way.
Apparently ethics are somewhat different on the east coast than they are on the west coast.
I horse around with the forums a lot because something I was taught went like this :
Do not believe everything you read, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
It's unbelieveable to me that two teens walked in with 15 to 20 Walking liberty albums full of every key date in mulitiples. I am sorry to doubt this.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It's a pity there are no pictures. People are putting a lot of validity in a typed story.
I horse around with the forums a lot because something I was taught went like this :
Do not believe everything you read, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
It's unbelieveable to me that two teens walked in with 15 to 20 Walking liberty albums full of every key date in mulitiples. I am sorry to doubt this.
I remember when I first read the post thinking that I have not seen "several 1921-PDS halves in XF/AU" (dealer's words) in my entire career, but as he later clarified that to read "Fine to BU" (his words) I guess it it possible. You just don't see those dates in XF/AU.
As far as honest guys in the area - I agree about Central Jersey Rare coins. I'd also recommend Doelger's in Warren.
<< <i>Hey edix2001.....nice memory from the movie "Blast from the Past"...almost forgot about that one........ >>
Movie scripts are fairly plentiful online.
I posted that just to show that crooked collectibles dealers are easily recognized for the scoundrels that they are, no need to parse words or to concoct absurd hypothetical scenarios where their conduct is justified.
Stolen collection
Edited to add: you may want to place a call to the West Windsor police. They may be more interested than your local police. West Windsor is less than 1 hr. drive from the scene of the Walking Liberty scandal you are reporting. Presumably, the shop owner obtained identification from the two kids before buying the coins, as is customary in reputable coin businesses. Otherwise, it may end up being his loss if the police get involved.
He got a current Redbook, showed me how to use it, and went to the page. He showed me how to handle coins, explained why I should put them in 2 by 2 flips, and suggested that I buy a current Redbook. 45 years later, largely thanks to him, I am still collecting coins.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Once from the original collector. And again, from the kids, by the dealer.
Unfortunately, many B&M dealers get most of their income in just this way.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>So, what really happened was the kids stole somebody's valuable coin collection and a coin dealer helped them fence the stolen goods.
I'm not surprised at all. If Bernie Madoff can do it, then so should anyone else be able to. >>
<< <i>Yes we know that these kids definitely stole the coins to begin with.
And your comment about the dealer making thousands is grossly understated.
I have never met a dealer that did not make low-ball offers, but if the dealer is from NJ the offers will always be comical in a criminal way.
Apparently ethics are somewhat different on the east coast than they are on the west coast. >>
WHAT THE
thats a very very bold statement to make.
just like people from the west coast are @#%$*&^.
Like edix said, there is a 99% likelihood the coins were stolen and the kids just wanted to get what they could. Even if the coins were obtained legally, like through inheritance the kids were still too lazy to check the values. Its not a dealers job to excuse a persons laziness.
How many of us have sold on EBAY and gotten a better price then we ever expected we would get? ALL of us. And we take it, we dont worry that the buyer could have found that coin cheaper elsewhere. The kids were stupid, obviously didnt buy those coins themsleves, and wanted to take the lazy, quick way to a few bucks. They got what they deserved and the dealer shouldnt feel a bit bad. He has to pay the bills.
As far as placing blame on the dealer or the kids, I've been trying to come up with similar situations in more mainstream businesses but couldn't think of anything concrete - just other collectibles, jewelers, etc. True, the dealer is in business to make money and it is his prerogative to maximize his profit, but it should be done in an ethical way, regardless of how the seller may or may not have come to possess the coins. While dealers are in business to make a profit, they are also viewed as authorities by the uninformed public. Taking a little extra profit for your expertise is one thing, but blatantly ripping someone off is another. Something tells me that if this was a little old lady selling her deceased husband's collection, the result would have been similar, and that is the problem I have with this scenario. It's a question of character - and I for one would do my best to stay away from someone who chooses to do business in this way. Just not somebody I can trust.
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later.
<< <i>About 6-7 years ago I was in a local pawn shop, a guy came in and had a tube of circ Morgans. The dealer flipped through them very quickly and offered him $7 each. He paid the guy and I offered the dealer $8 each, he sold me the tube. As I was driving home I was checking out the coins and there was a 1893-S in there! Graded a VF30 at PCGS. Should I have called the dealer and told him I just got a $4500 coin from him for $8?
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later. >>
Hmm. This is very interesting regarding the 1893-S. Shouldn't most dealers know of the key dates, of which the 1893-S is certainly one?
<< <i>
<< <i>About 6-7 years ago I was in a local pawn shop, a guy came in and had a tube of circ Morgans. The dealer flipped through them very quickly and offered him $7 each. He paid the guy and I offered the dealer $8 each, he sold me the tube. As I was driving home I was checking out the coins and there was a 1893-S in there! Graded a VF30 at PCGS. Should I have called the dealer and told him I just got a $4500 coin from him for $8?
HELL NO!
People selling to dealers always can say "No" to an offer and move on. There is only speculation that the coins were stolen, no one here really knows for sure. If it would have been a middle-aged man who brought them in had the "My brother died and left me these", the dealer would have did the same thing. Dealer lowball bulk lots, and go through the coins later. The kids could have said no.
Fact, someone walks into a dealer with $100 face of circ mercs, the dealer is going to offer them melt. Then go through every one later. >>
Hmm. This is very interesting regarding the 1893-S. Shouldn't most dealers know of the key dates, of which the 1893-S is certainly one? >>
I believe it was a hyporthetical.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Hmm. This is very interesting regarding the 1893-S. Shouldn't most dealers know of the key dates, of which the 1893-S is certainly one? >>
The dealer flipped thru them, I think it was more to see how they sounded than the dates. Because everyone know, just silver is junk silver...
I didn't know there were so many people willing to believe yet another "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when..." story based on an internet post.
For starters, even if the story's true... teenage kids + rare coins= STOLEN. Therefore you have a thief ripping off other thieves. I'm not heartbroken over that. I call that poetic justice for the little scumballs. Maybe the dealer suspected that the stuff was hot, so he lowballed it on purpose to cover himself. Of course a smart dealer would just pass the deal because he wouldn't want the cops coming in, taking the stuff and then he'd be out the coins and the money, regardless of what was paid. Or better yet, he could act like he's writing up the deal, ask them for ID, record the info, then go "OH, no, I forgot I ran my cash to the bank, come back in an hour", and have the cops waiting for them when they return (and supply them the ID info if they don't).
What I really find amusing is that from being a longtime lurker here, I know well that many of the people showing all the righteous indignation here would themselves buy such a deal in a heartbeat if it were offered to them, and then come brag about it here, to boot. "I bought a bunch of junk silver halves and guess what I found!"...hypocritical much? And spare me the "oh no, I would have looked up each piece beforehand and paid all the money" stuff.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>(quote) "I didn't know that there were so many Shirlock (sic) Holmes on these forums ready to declare coins stolen based on an internet post. You guys are amazing. "
I didn't know there were so many people willing to believe yet another "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when..." story based on an internet post.
For starters, even if the story's true... teenage kids + rare coins= STOLEN. Therefore you have a thief ripping off other thieves. I'm not heartbroken over that. I call that poetic justice for the little scumballs. Maybe the dealer suspected that the stuff was hot, so he lowballed it on purpose to cover himself. Of course a smart dealer would just pass the deal because he wouldn't want the cops coming in, taking the stuff and then he'd be out the coins and the money, regardless of what was paid. Or better yet, he could act like he's writing up the deal, ask them for ID, record the info, then go "OH, no, I forgot I ran my cash to the bank, come back in an hour", and have the cops waiting for them when they return (and supply them the ID info if they don't).
What I really find amusing is that from being a longtime lurker here, I know well that many of the people showing all the righteous indignation here would themselves buy such a deal in a heartbeat if it were offered to them, and then come brag about it here, to boot. "I bought a bunch of junk silver halves and guess what I found!"...hypocritical much? And spare me the "oh no, I would have looked up each piece beforehand and paid all the money" stuff. >>
You, sir, are way out of line if your comments are directed at me...
First off, I didn't infer any such thing about "all dealers are crooks, and I know because I was there when".
Second, who is to say that these coins weren't left to them by a relative? I know that I was handed over my grandfather's collection to do with what I pleased when I was a young teenager -- would I have been accused by the forum police of stealing those coins if I tried to sell them to the local B&M? The facts are that you really have no idea if the coins were stolen or not and it is an assumption by you (and the other Shirlock Homes), based on an internet post, that they were. Thankfully, our justice system is founded on the basis that you are innocent until proven guilty, and not on flawed logic and presumption of guilt.
Third, I would never and have never purchased an unsearched group of coins from anyone with the hope of profiting through cherrypicking. I have no desire to rip people off for my own personal gain, and yes I know how the B&M junk silver market works -- which is why I choose not to participate.
If your comments weren't directed at me, I apologize, and would respectfully suggest you not quote me if that is not your intent....Mike
PS...my assumption that the coins were likely stolen is an educated one that comes from 26 years of experience as a fulltime B&M dealer.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012