"If a shop cannot stay in business and make a fair living w/o ripping off the public from time to time then it's time to find a new business. There's no reason for it."
Well. I certainly understand the point of view.
But I have been a collector for some 40+ years. I have been a small business guy all my life. I have dabbled in vest pocket dealing for many years. I have studied all the local dealers that set up at the small Sunday shows. I have studied the vest pocket type dealers that walk the shows with their briefcases.
I know that pretty much, all the LONG TIME LOCAL dealers in my area are making the vast majority of their profit from buying inheritance type deals, at steep discounts to retail. I know that seems to be the unspoken truth of the coin industry.
I'm talking about LONG TIME LOCAL dealers.
Have you gone to a local show or a local shop and seen pretty much the same merchandise on display time after time after time after time after time?
A lot of people complain about the decay of society, but fail to examine how they are contributing to that, in the day to day activities that they involve themselves in.
<< <i>So who do you really blame for this type of behavior?
If a shop cannot stay in business and make a fair living w/o ripping off the public from time to time, then it's time to find a new business. There's no reason for it. On the flip side, I know there are very few shops that won't take advantage of walk-ins from time to time. They chalk it up to business and paying the rent. It doesn't make it right.
The irony of the above situation is, if you make a fair offer every time (say 60-80% for better material, such as this was) the sellers will walk once they find out they have something truly valuable. And if you are an honest dealer with or without a shop trying to buy from the public at 70-90%, they will invariably avoid you and find that particular buyer who will give them peanuts...and feel good about it. Just the way it works. They are more apt to sell for peanuts than for considerable money.
roadrunner >>
Good post RR ...
I've seen this far too many times... one example was a young couple that came to a small local show. The young woman had a bag of 90% to sell...(turned out to be around $100 face) she went to many tables to find out what she could get. At the time spot was around 10x... she was offered between 9 and 10.5 by four of the tables... then she stopped at another table across from me... this guy took all the coins out and went thru them one at a time (the others just counted them up)... he talks to her and explains they are common "junk" with no rare dates and then offers her 7x face ...her "boyfriend" told her she should go back to the higher offer... she argued that this dealer had spent so much time that she felt obligated to sell them to him... they argued and she "won" (of course ) ... and she accepted the 7x face... and the couple walked out with the guy shaking his head in disgust.
The buyer then "bragged" about his score for the rest of the show...
On the flip side... I had a couple ask me about a 2-coin Buffalo Silver Commem set... I quoted grey sheet ask... (they did not even look thru a loupe or under a light... they just wanted the set because it looked "cool") ... they said they'd think it over and moved on to the next table... he also had a set for sale... they asked his price without having it pulled out of the case... he quoted a price $50 over my price... they looked at each other and agreed... sold...
There is no accounting for the lack of logic in most folks...
As for the story in/by the OP... I do have a few doubts about it... I do not know this dealer but do know a little about him. If I am thinking of the same dealer, he does handle a fair amount of slabbed material... so if, in fact, he found himself with this little mother-lode of higher grade 21 P,D,S Walkers, I would imagine they would be on their way to a grading service... not getting flipped.
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Ok, this thread is not attempting to make local B&Ms look bad, shady, or whatever you want to call it. Most are up front and honest people. I'm just curious if anyone else has seen dealings like this one.
Quick story that happened to me today.... I'm going through a small group of mixed series at a local B&M in NJ near where I live and a two kids (18 to 19 years old) walk in. They have a few old half dollar books (15 to 20) which they wish to sell. The owner goes through the books and is sure to point out how warn the coins are. He even pulled out a 40's MS-66 so that they can see the difference between conditions. He then offers them silver spot which they accept and then leave. After they leave he gets on the phone and tells the person on the other end that he just got SEVERAL 1921 P, D, S, in XF-AU and to stop by. After he gets off the phone I ask to see his pick-up. I couldn't believe my eyes when he showed me 15 different 1921's P, D, and S ranging from F to BU. There was also a bunch of 1916's and so on. I asked him if he felt bad ripping off those kids. He got a little pissed and said something like they were adults who should have researched what they had before selling it. I figure he walked away with several thousand dollars. True, the kids should have pick up a price guide which he did have several on the counter. I like the store because there is a very large inventory of raw stuff comimg in all the time but this situation left a bad taste in my mouth. >>
The coins where probably stolen; and if the kids didn't steal them the B&M definitely did.
I remember my Grandfather collecting coins, and handing out silver to each of us grandkids when we stopped by. We had no idea as to value, or that there were coins worth more than face. Up until a few years ago, I still had these coins in an envelope where they were kept for us. I only recently became interested in their history. I bet that if my parents had given them to me to do as I pleased, I'd have spent them long ago (probably at face value) without realizing how I'd later regret the decision.
My point is that there are kids out there with coins that they haven't attained by some sort criminal mischief.
<< That's not completely accurate. If it is proven that the coins were stolen, the dealer does not have legal title to them and must return them to the rightful owner. The dealer cannot purchase stolen goods. Whether he did so on good faith or not, ownership of stolen goods does not transfer with a sale. Otherwise every thief would simply "sell" their stolen property immediately "cleansing" the property and making ownership by anyone legal.
We used to run across this occasionally when we would buy over-the-counter at the coin shop I worked at. We learned to hold "suspected" items for the "legal" limit of 10 days (or it could have been 7 days) before we disposed of them. Nonetheless, if later it was proven that we purchased stolen goods, we were legally required to return the items at our loss if we still had them. Fortunately, this rarely happened and when it did, the victim was usually happy to pay us our cost so we did not have to take a loss.
I do appreciate, however, that the same laws may not be in place everywhere, but I am sure the principle is the same.
Lane >> ******************************************************************************************
This does make complete sense and is right however chances of recovering stolen material that is quickly moved in different directions, in the vast majority of cases just will not happen!
No matter the circumstances - no matter how often this sort of activity DOES take place on a daily basis Everywhere, USA - it's WRONG of the dealer to KNOWINGLY give any person ridiculously low money on items of value.
Does it happen? YES! Everyday, everywhere!
Is it right?
HELL NO.... which brings me full circle to my original post!
It's disgustingly sickening.
How such people can live with themselves escapes me.
Rationalize all you care to about the cost of business but if one must resort to such low, underhanded tactics - HEY - they have to live with it on their heads. I want no part of it or such dealers.
It's just not worth it.
What about Honor, Integrity and Responsibility? Nice, albeit "hollow" words!?
<< <i>I would have ran out after those kids to find them at all possible and take them back to the shop to get their coins back. Tell the guy he's got a horrible reputation...which he'll have after you spread the word. What an a$$, as someone else mentioned. >>
............i think that advice would have gotten the guy killed!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>Of course it was stolen, and the buyer knew that and bought it anyway - probably wasn't the first time these "kids" sold items to this guy. >>
..............you MAY have something there!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>I'm glad that 1 of the B&M stores near me is very honest. He'll pull out the greysheet and show the prices on the greysheet.
I would never deal with a B&M store that was that dishonest like the OP posted. >>
.............at the risk of adding to some of the paranoia here, shouldn't you be saying ALLEGED greysheet? it may be a 'counterfeit' greysheet.
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
silvergoldnut, I'm sure the dealer made money on the gold buffalo. Perhaps he paid only 800 and earned 145.
tahoe98 hahhaha. Its a real greysheet. He has it out for customers to see PLUS the dealer has the coin magazines out on the glass so if you want to look at prices you can as well. Honest place.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
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Someday, somehow when this "dealer" least expects - something really bad will take place in his/ her life & he won't like it ONE BIT.... and then ....
In his moments of silent reflection, particularly as he grows closer to the end of this worldly existence, he'll remember and he'll truly regret any & every one he's EVER wronged because IN THE END, not one material thing matters, AT ALL.
Faced with one's own end and the Reality of Eternity takes over - it will occur to him and hopefully (for his sake) somehow he'll have an opportunity to tip the scales of Justice somewhere close to the vicinity of equal.
Nothing makes reality register with crystal clarity the way knowing Death is coming very soon does.
No amount of money will save anyone. Rich or poor, powerful or not, we ALL face the same common end from which there is NO escape!
<< <i>silvergoldnut, I'm sure the dealer made money on the gold buffalo. Perhaps he paid only 800 and earned 145.
tahoe98 hahhaha. Its a real greysheet. He has it out for customers to see PLUS the dealer has the coin magazines out on the glass so if you want to look at prices you can as well. Honest place. >>
..............
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
Dealer Code of Ethics Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Member Code of Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.
<< <i>If on the 1% chance they're not stolen, then more power to the dealer. >>
Weiss---This statement says a lot about your ethics. >>
True. Too true. And the fact that you'd use an incomplete quote says everything about yours. >>
Yup. You also said you wouldn't do it yourself yet you said "more power to the dealer". What did you mean by this statement? It sure sounds like you are giving the dealer a pat on the back.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
After reading through most of this thread, I'm thinking I'll take a different tack in choosing a new B&M shop. Instead of going in and shopping to buy something right off the bat... I think I'll go in with a few coins (some common stuff and at least one key date... all raw), feign ignorance, and see how much I'm offerred.
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Half way thru the post - I had to stop reading - I actually became ill.
The disposal of what ever collection I own at the time of my passing [ not for many years to come ! ] will be outlined in my will. I hope to have as close to current values attached to each slab.
I also wondered where two 18- 19 yr olds had gotten a dozen XF/AU - 1921's. >>
Since I have all my sets and singles on Heritage's "My Collection", I simply ran copies of all of them and included them with my will. Each series shows not only the total value of the series but the value of each coin. There are further instructions about dividing up the collections and how to dispose of them at decent prices if they don't want to keep them.
There are several factors involved in this post. Were the coins stolen by the boys? I know of a couple of times parents had coins disapear from the house and have heard of others. Most certainly, regardless of the source, the dealer knew exactly what he was doing and I consider it to be a criminal act. I, too, was feeling a little ill after reading the post. This was worse that TV's cash for gold scam. JMHO. JT
It is health that is real wealth, not pieces of gold and silver. Gandhi.
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>After reading through most of this thread, I'm thinking I'll take a different tack in choosing a new B&M shop. Instead of going in and shopping to buy something right off the bat... I think I'll go in with a few coins (some common stuff and at least one key date... all raw), feign ignorance, and see how much I'm offerred.
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L >>
Interesting strategy but what if the dealer proves legit? If you plan to buy from them in the future once the first sequence is complete do you continue to feign ignorance as you're buying from them too? How would it not come out at some point that the first meeting was a ruse? Fine line, fine line. . .
I've semi-tested a dealer out before, but that was through an eBay item they were selling. I didn't tell them who I was and they wouldn't know that me and the eBay name I used were the same person.
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
<< <i>The dealer did not break the law, but he committed a violation of ethics (this is assuming the coins weren't stolen) >>
He may have broken the law. Many states require shop owners who buy things second-hand to get ID and track all purchases, to help discourage the purchase of stolen property.
I watched a woman walk in to my favorite dealer's with a gold one ounce panda that she had literally found in the street. She professed she knew nothing about it. I hung back and pretended not to listen to the conversation. My dealer offered her $650 for it. (I think spot gold was around $640 an ounce back then). That's when I knew I had found a dealer I could trust.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
and to think, once upon a time, i thought coin shops existed to sell coins. little did i know that the sheer majority of them exist to rip off people walking in their doors on a daily basis.
<< <i>After reading through most of this thread, I'm thinking I'll take a different tack in choosing a new B&M shop. Instead of going in and shopping to buy something right off the bat... I think I'll go in with a few coins (some common stuff and at least one key date... all raw), feign ignorance, and see how much I'm offerred.
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L >>
Interesting strategy but what if the dealer proves legit? If you plan to buy from them in the future once the first sequence is complete do you continue to feign ignorance as you're buying from them too? How would it not come out at some point that the first meeting was a ruse? Fine line, fine line. . .
I've semi-tested a dealer out before, but that was through an eBay item they were selling. I didn't tell them who I was and they wouldn't know that me and the eBay name I used were the same person. >>
"Thinking" and "doing" are two different things... and as I said, I'm not a teenager anymore. I think any dealer worth his/her salt would probably see through this but there has to be some way to ferret out those that are reputable and those who aren't. This forum goes a long way to advance this.
I've just moved to a new area and I'm currently in the process of doing just this. My tack has definitely NOT been deception. I've been very up-front with the dealers I've come into contact with. I'm a collector, and I bring examples of what I like and the direction in which I want my collection to go. I've made some minor purchases as I'm doing this as part of the "process". I won't be out alot of money and I'll be able to see how the negotiations go. If the dealer is willing to work with me, then I'll return. If not, then I'll continue to shop around for another B&M.
L
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
I had a similar experience about 8-9 years ago at a B&M in No. Cal. I was visiting the shop when a guy walked in with a handful of raw older Walkers [teens and twenties] in higher circulated grades [EF-AU] to sell. The guy looked like he could have been a homeless guy. He was dressed in dirty worn out clothes and his English was difficult to understand. The shop clerk asked the guy about the coins and he said he got them in change at a local gas station [remember this happened in 2000-2001]. The B&M clerk offered the guy $70.00-$80.00 for the coins. The guy agreed, the coins and money changed hands and the guy left. Other patrons in the shop talked with the B&M Clerk about the deal. The patrons and the B&M clerk all expressed doubt about the guy's story that he got them in change at a gas station, instead stating that to them it was clear that he stole the coins and wanted to get cash for them. The B&M clerk showed no indication that he thought anything was wrong. During the transaction he also went into the back to show the coins to the owner and get an offer price. So the deal was reviewed and approved by the owner, who obviously did not have a problem with the deal.
I scratched my head and have thought about this transaction many times.
Part of me is sickened by it [the probable theft of the coins from a collector and the thief's sale of same to a local B&M dealer who pays pennies on the dollar for coins of great value, without any moral regret].
Then another part of me looks at things from a businesslegal point of view. Stereotyping the guy who walked in with the coins [he looks like a homeless guy thus he must have stolen the coins and his story about getting them from a gas station in change is a lie] and assuming (in the complete absence of proof) that the coins are stolen is simply wrong. The guy with the coins may be completely legit.
The you have the purchase of the coins at a small percentage of their value. Free enterprise capitalism and for profit businesses are in large part what has made the USA such a great place to live. It works best when both sides to a deal are knowledgable and educated on the subject matter. If sellers do not become educated on what they have, why should the person who is educated not benefit from superior knowledge? With all of the demands that a business owner has placed on him or her (overhead, taxes other liabilities) revenue to cover same and provide enough left over to live on and set aside some for retirement is a must. Absent adequate revenue, the business fails. So I can see why a B&M owner would be willing to by coins from walk in customers at RIP prices. I can also understand that if the seller is told by the dealer that the coins are of great value, the seller gets all bent out of shape and walks away without giving the dealer a chance to buy [the dealer then finds he has shot himself in the foot by being "fair"].
Collectors like to complain about dealers and excoriate them for the great deals that they get. However, the same collectors crow about what a great deal they get when they cherry pick or RIP a dealer. They expect to be praised for their own conduct that they criticze a dealer for.
I guess it comes down to personal choice based upon your moralsethics and situation at the time. The best thing is for the seller of the coins to be knowledgeable about what they have and the value of same. Ripping little old ladies seems to be looked down upon [rightly so], but in many situations, appearances are deceiving and little old ladies can be worse than the scummiest dealer or collector or investor.
Collectors like to complain about dealers and excoriate them for the great deals that they get. However, the same collectors crow about what a great deal they get when they cherry pick or RIP a dealer. They expect to be praised for their own conduct that they criticze a dealer for.
seems to me the dealer is the one who should have an edge over the collector 100% of the time as that is their calling in life. It is more then fair due to the dealer having more knowledge and should be aware of what he is selling.
Of course if this is the average B&M which exists to rip off people walking into the shop as their way to make money the majority of the time... i could see them being not as savvy as the dealers here and thus could be quite naive about some coins in their inventory.
either way... a dealer should know what he is selling. end of story. the collector who gets a rip has to ask to see the coin, giving the dealer ANOTHER chance to make up for his mistake as he passes it over...
<< <i>What if all the rare dates in the OP scenario were fakes or altered coins? Would the ripoff be a ripoff now?
TRUTH >>
the dealer has chosen a calling in life to sell and buy coins. if he cannot determine fakes over real coins... he has chosen the wrong calling. the blame is 100% his. And how do you know the person selling even knows the difference? They goto the dealer for this information!
<< <i>The best thing is for the seller of the coins to be knowledgeable about what they have and the value of same.
Yep.
Steve >>
One would think a coin store that has an owner as an ANA member would have a duty to inform their customers of the approx value and make an offer that is not insulting. This does not mean they cannot lowball them a bit to make a nice profit.. but not give them 1% of the value of the coins!
<< <i>Collectors like to complain about dealers and excoriate them for the great deals that they get. However, the same collectors crow about what a great deal they get when they cherry pick or RIP a dealer. They expect to be praised for their own conduct that they criticze a dealer for. >>
There's a BIG difference between buying from a professional coin dealer who should know what he's doing and buying from a widow who knows nothing about coins. Also, when you buy a rare variety worth $250 from a dealer for $50, there's a good chance the dealer paid less than $20 from someone who walked in off the street to sell him the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sorry, there are many good fakes. Sometimes, you make an offer only to find out there are fakes in a collection that the buyer thought were real. It happens to all buyers, including experts. No one here on this forum knows the entire story, so passing judgement is presumptious.
<< <i>What if all the rare dates in the OP scenario were fakes or altered coins? Would the ripoff be a ripoff now?
TRUTH[/q
..............could that be KARMA?
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>Sorry, there are many good fakes. Sometimes, you make an offer only to find out there are fakes in a collection that the buyer thought were real. It happens to all buyers, including experts. No one here on this forum knows the entire story, so passing judgement is presumptious.
TRUTH >>
well what would you do then if that happened to you? If you were the dealer and you bought 100 coins and seven were fake including a key?
Have a generic contract in writing that allows you to recover some of your money perhaps?
Most dealers would gladly make a written appraisal for $100 an hour. Then, the seller can shop around. Offers from dealers are free, but free means the dealer makes money on the purchase. I don't expect to walk into an attorney's office and ask for free hourly advice or information, nor an accountant, nor an engineer.
<< <i>Please tell me who the honest guy is in that area. I need a local B&M >>
The two that I have found to be helpful are Central Jersey Coins in Bound Brook. And Raab Coins in Flemington. Rob at Central Jersey doesn't talk much but he will let you spend hours going through stuff. Randy at Raab Coins will talk your ear off but his immediate selection is limited. If you call him in advance he will have what your looking for when you come.
Most dealers would gladly make a written appraisal for $100 an hour. Then, the seller can shop around. Offers from dealers are free, but free means the dealer makes money on the purchase. I don't expect to walk into an attorney's office and ask for free hourly advice or information, nor an accountant, nor an engineer.
TRUTH >>
excellent point and I concede to your arguement. The seller should make their goal clear and determine what price an appraisal should be or if they wish to get an offer for the dealer to buy.
Comments
then it's time to find a new business. There's no reason for it."
Well. I certainly understand the point of view.
But I have been a collector for some 40+ years.
I have been a small business guy all my life.
I have dabbled in vest pocket dealing for many years.
I have studied all the local dealers that set up at
the small Sunday shows. I have studied the vest
pocket type dealers that walk the shows with
their briefcases.
I know that pretty much, all the LONG TIME LOCAL dealers
in my area are making the vast majority of their
profit from buying inheritance type deals, at steep
discounts to retail.
I know that seems to be the unspoken truth of the
coin industry.
I'm talking about LONG TIME LOCAL dealers.
Have you gone to a local show or a local shop and seen
pretty much the same merchandise on display
time after time after time after time after time?
Regards, Steve K.
<< <i>So who do you really blame for this type of behavior?
If a shop cannot stay in business and make a fair living w/o ripping off the public from time to time, then it's time to find a new business. There's no reason for it. On the flip side, I know there are very few shops that won't take advantage of walk-ins from time to time. They chalk it up to business and paying the rent. It doesn't make it right.
The irony of the above situation is, if you make a fair offer every time (say 60-80% for better material, such as this was) the sellers will walk once they find out they have something truly valuable. And if you are an honest dealer with or without a shop trying to buy from the public at 70-90%, they will invariably avoid you and find that particular buyer who will give them peanuts...and feel good about it. Just the way it works. They are more apt to sell for peanuts than for considerable money.
roadrunner >>
Good post RR ...
I've seen this far too many times... one example was a young couple that came to a small local show. The young woman had a bag of 90% to sell...(turned out to be around $100 face) she went to many tables to find out what she could get. At the time spot was around 10x... she was offered between 9 and 10.5 by four of the tables... then she stopped at another table across from me... this guy took all the coins out and went thru them one at a time (the others just counted them up)... he talks to her and explains they are common "junk" with no rare dates and then offers her 7x face
The buyer then "bragged" about his score for the rest of the show...
On the flip side... I had a couple ask me about a 2-coin Buffalo Silver Commem set... I quoted grey sheet ask... (they did not even look thru a loupe or under a light... they just wanted the set because it looked "cool") ... they said they'd think it over and moved on to the next table... he also had a set for sale... they asked his price without having it pulled out of the case... he quoted a price $50 over my price... they looked at each other and agreed... sold...
There is no accounting for the lack of logic in most folks...
As for the story in/by the OP... I do have a few doubts about it... I do not know this dealer but do know a little about him. If I am thinking of the same dealer, he does handle a fair amount of slabbed material... so if, in fact, he found himself with this little mother-lode of higher grade 21 P,D,S Walkers, I would imagine they would be on their way to a grading service... not getting flipped.
these dates without knowing what they were."
Yes.
They were clearly stolen, or...... inherited.
Either way, it was found money, that is
why they did not know the value of the coins.
Regards, Steve K.
<< <i>Ok, this thread is not attempting to make local B&Ms look bad, shady, or whatever you want to call it. Most are up front and honest people. I'm just curious if anyone else has seen dealings like this one.
Quick story that happened to me today.... I'm going through a small group of mixed series at a local B&M in NJ near where I live and a two kids (18 to 19 years old) walk in. They have a few old half dollar books (15 to 20) which they wish to sell. The owner goes through the books and is sure to point out how warn the coins are. He even pulled out a 40's MS-66 so that they can see the difference between conditions. He then offers them silver spot which they accept and then leave. After they leave he gets on the phone and tells the person on the other end that he just got SEVERAL 1921 P, D, S, in XF-AU and to stop by. After he gets off the phone I ask to see his pick-up. I couldn't believe my eyes when he showed me 15 different 1921's P, D, and S ranging from F to BU. There was also a bunch of 1916's and so on. I asked him if he felt bad ripping off those kids. He got a little pissed and said something like they were adults who should have researched what they had before selling it. I figure he walked away with several thousand dollars. True, the kids should have pick up a price guide which he did have several on the counter. I like the store because there is a very large inventory of raw stuff comimg in all the time but this situation left a bad taste in my mouth. >>
The coins where probably stolen; and if the kids didn't steal them the B&M definitely did.
I remember my Grandfather collecting coins, and handing out silver to each of us grandkids when we stopped by. We had no idea as to value, or that there were coins worth more than face. Up until a few years ago, I still had these coins in an envelope where they were kept for us. I only recently became interested in their history. I bet that if my parents had given them to me to do as I pleased, I'd have spent them long ago (probably at face value) without realizing how I'd later regret the decision.
My point is that there are kids out there with coins that they haven't attained by some sort criminal mischief.
We used to run across this occasionally when we would buy over-the-counter at the coin shop I worked at. We learned to hold "suspected" items for the "legal" limit of 10 days (or it could have been 7 days) before we disposed of them. Nonetheless, if later it was proven that we purchased stolen goods, we were legally required to return the items at our loss if we still had them. Fortunately, this rarely happened and when it did, the victim was usually happy to pay us our cost so we did not have to take a loss.
I do appreciate, however, that the same laws may not be in place everywhere, but I am sure the principle is the same.
Lane >>
******************************************************************************************
This does make complete sense and is right however chances of recovering stolen material that is quickly moved in different directions, in the vast majority of cases just will not happen!
No matter the circumstances - no matter how often this sort of activity DOES take place on a daily basis Everywhere, USA - it's WRONG of the dealer to KNOWINGLY give any person ridiculously low money on items of value.
Does it happen? YES! Everyday, everywhere!
Is it right?
HELL NO.... which brings me full circle to my original post!
It's disgustingly sickening.
How such people can live with themselves escapes me.
Rationalize all you care to about the cost of business but if one must resort to such low, underhanded tactics -
HEY - they have to live with it on their heads. I want no part of it or such dealers.
It's just not worth it.
What about Honor, Integrity and Responsibility? Nice, albeit "hollow" words!?
Time to cash out & go fishing.
It's much more peaceful.
I would never deal with a B&M store that was that dishonest like the OP posted.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I would have ran out after those kids to find them at all possible and take them back to the shop to get their coins back.
Tell the guy he's got a horrible reputation...which he'll have after you spread the word. What an a$$, as someone else mentioned. >>
............i think that advice would have gotten the guy killed!
<< <i>Of course it was stolen, and the buyer knew that and bought it anyway - probably wasn't the first time these "kids" sold items to this guy. >>
..............you MAY have something there!
i screw over my local dealer everytime i can , if he doesn't know everything he has then he should find another business.
case in point, 2006 gold buffalo NGC ms70 first strikes, 945.00 plus tax, sold on ebay 1274.00 plus 10.00 shipping.
i do this all day. some of you might be put off by this , but lets face it would you tell him that some of his stuff is not priced correct.
<< <i>I'm glad that 1 of the B&M stores near me is very honest. He'll pull out the greysheet and show the prices on the greysheet.
I would never deal with a B&M store that was that dishonest like the OP posted. >>
.............at the risk of adding to some of the paranoia here, shouldn't you be saying ALLEGED greysheet? it may be a 'counterfeit' greysheet.
tahoe98 hahhaha. Its a real greysheet. He has it out for customers to see PLUS the dealer has the coin magazines out on the glass so if you want to look at prices you can as well. Honest place.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Someday, somehow when this "dealer" least expects -
something really bad will take place in his/ her life & he
won't like it ONE BIT.... and then ....
In his moments of silent reflection, particularly as he grows
closer to the end of this worldly existence, he'll remember
and he'll truly regret any & every one he's EVER wronged
because IN THE END, not one material thing matters, AT ALL.
Faced with one's own end and the Reality of Eternity takes
over - it will occur to him and hopefully (for his sake) somehow
he'll have an opportunity to tip the scales of Justice somewhere
close to the vicinity of equal.
Nothing makes reality register with crystal clarity the way knowing
Death is coming very soon does.
No amount of money will save anyone. Rich or poor, powerful or not,
we ALL face the same common end from which there is NO escape!
<< <i>silvergoldnut, I'm sure the dealer made money on the gold buffalo. Perhaps he paid only 800 and earned 145.
tahoe98 hahhaha. Its a real greysheet. He has it out for customers to see PLUS the dealer has the coin magazines out on the glass so if you want to look at prices you can as well. Honest place. >>
..............
Report the incident to the police. Fencing stolen property is a felony.
Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Member Code of Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.
&c.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If on the 1% chance they're not stolen, then more power to the dealer. >>
Weiss---This statement says a lot about your ethics. >>
True. Too true. And the fact that you'd use an incomplete quote says everything about yours. >>
Yup. You also said you wouldn't do it yourself yet you said "more power to the dealer". What did you mean by this statement? It sure sounds like you are giving the dealer a pat on the back.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>
<< <i>That is so sickening.
I mean - REALLY!
Half way thru the post - I had to stop reading - I actually became ill.
The disposal of what ever collection I own at the time of my passing
[ not for many years to come ! ] will be outlined in my will. I hope to
have as close to current values attached to each slab.
I also wondered where two 18- 19 yr olds had gotten a dozen XF/AU - 1921's. >>
Since I have all my sets and singles on Heritage's "My Collection", I simply ran copies
of all of them and included them with my will. Each series shows not only the total value
of the series but the value of each coin.
There are further instructions about dividing up the collections and how to dispose
of them at decent prices if they don't want to keep them.
There are several factors involved in this post.
Were the coins stolen by the boys?
I know of a couple of times parents had coins disapear from the house and
have heard of others.
Most certainly, regardless of the source, the dealer knew exactly what he was
doing and I consider it to be a criminal act.
I, too, was feeling a little ill after reading the post.
This was worse that TV's cash for gold scam.
JMHO.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>After reading through most of this thread, I'm thinking I'll take a different tack in choosing a new B&M shop. Instead of going in and shopping to buy something right off the bat... I think I'll go in with a few coins (some common stuff and at least one key date... all raw), feign ignorance, and see how much I'm offerred.
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L >>
Interesting strategy but what if the dealer proves legit? If you plan to buy from them in the future once the first sequence is complete do you continue to feign ignorance as you're buying from them too? How would it not come out at some point that the first meeting was a ruse? Fine line, fine line. . .
I've semi-tested a dealer out before, but that was through an eBay item they were selling. I didn't tell them who I was and they wouldn't know that me and the eBay name I used were the same person.
<< <i>The dealer did not break the law, but he committed a violation of ethics (this is assuming the coins weren't stolen) >>
He may have broken the law. Many states require shop owners who buy things second-hand to get ID and track all purchases, to help discourage the purchase of stolen property.
<< <i>You could call the local police and let them know incase someone has or does report matching items stolen. >>
You could also call the local police and let them know YOU had a collection like that stolen, and they're right in front of you at the coin store.
coins. little did i know that the sheer majority of them exist to rip
off people walking in their doors on a daily basis.
regarding the kids... what if they were selling grandpa's collection that they inherited?
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>
<< <i>After reading through most of this thread, I'm thinking I'll take a different tack in choosing a new B&M shop. Instead of going in and shopping to buy something right off the bat... I think I'll go in with a few coins (some common stuff and at least one key date... all raw), feign ignorance, and see how much I'm offerred.
But then again... I'm not a teenager trying to pedal 15 books of Walkers' with key dates...L >>
Interesting strategy but what if the dealer proves legit? If you plan to buy from them in the future once the first sequence is complete do you continue to feign ignorance as you're buying from them too? How would it not come out at some point that the first meeting was a ruse? Fine line, fine line. . .
I've semi-tested a dealer out before, but that was through an eBay item they were selling. I didn't tell them who I was and they wouldn't know that me and the eBay name I used were the same person. >>
"Thinking" and "doing" are two different things... and as I said, I'm not a teenager anymore. I think any dealer worth his/her salt would probably see through this but there has to be some way to ferret out those that are reputable and those who aren't. This forum goes a long way to advance this.
I've just moved to a new area and I'm currently in the process of doing just this. My tack has definitely NOT been deception. I've been very up-front with the dealers I've come into contact with. I'm a collector, and I bring examples of what I like and the direction in which I want my collection to go. I've made some minor purchases as I'm doing this as part of the "process". I won't be out alot of money and I'll be able to see how the negotiations go. If the dealer is willing to work with me, then I'll return. If not, then I'll continue to shop around for another B&M.
L
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I scratched my head and have thought about this transaction many times.
Part of me is sickened by it [the probable theft of the coins from a collector and the thief's sale of same to a local B&M dealer who pays pennies on the dollar for coins of great value, without any moral regret].
Then another part of me looks at things from a businesslegal point of view. Stereotyping the guy who walked in with the coins [he looks like a homeless guy thus he must have stolen the coins and his story about getting them from a gas station in change is a lie] and assuming (in the complete absence of proof) that the coins are stolen is simply wrong. The guy with the coins may be completely legit.
The you have the purchase of the coins at a small percentage of their value. Free enterprise capitalism and for profit businesses are in large part what has made the USA such a great place to live. It works best when both sides to a deal are knowledgable and educated on the subject matter. If sellers do not become educated on what they have, why should the person who is educated not benefit from superior knowledge? With all of the demands that a business owner has placed on him or her (overhead, taxes other liabilities) revenue to cover same and provide enough left over to live on and set aside some for retirement is a must. Absent adequate revenue, the business fails. So I can see why a B&M owner would be willing to by coins from walk in customers at RIP prices. I can also understand that if the seller is told by the dealer that the coins are of great value, the seller gets all bent out of shape and walks away without giving the dealer a chance to buy [the dealer then finds he has shot himself in the foot by being "fair"].
Collectors like to complain about dealers and excoriate them for the great deals that they get. However, the same collectors crow about what a great deal they get when they cherry pick or RIP a dealer. They expect to be praised for their own conduct that they criticze a dealer for.
I guess it comes down to personal choice based upon your moralsethics and situation at the time. The best thing is for the seller of the coins to be knowledgeable about what they have and the value of same.
Ripping little old ladies seems to be looked down upon [rightly so], but in many situations, appearances are deceiving and little old ladies can be worse than the scummiest dealer or collector or investor.
Yep.
Steve
TRUTH
seems to me the dealer is the one who should have an edge over the
collector 100% of the time as that is their calling in life. It is more then
fair due to the dealer having more knowledge and should be aware
of what he is selling.
Of course if this is the average B&M which exists to rip off people
walking into the shop as their way to make money the majority of
the time... i could see them being not as savvy as the dealers here
and thus could be quite naive about some coins in their inventory.
either way... a dealer should know what he is selling. end of story.
the collector who gets a rip has to ask to see the coin, giving the dealer
ANOTHER chance to make up for his mistake as he passes it over...
anyway.. that is how I see it.
<< <i>What if all the rare dates in the OP scenario were fakes or altered coins? Would the ripoff be a ripoff now?
TRUTH >>
the dealer has chosen a calling in life to sell and buy coins. if he cannot
determine fakes over real coins... he has chosen the wrong calling.
the blame is 100% his. And how do you know the person selling even
knows the difference? They goto the dealer for this information!
<< <i>The best thing is for the seller of the coins to be knowledgeable about what they have and the value of same.
Yep.
Steve >>
One would think a coin store that has an owner as an ANA member
would have a duty to inform their customers of the approx value and
make an offer that is not insulting. This does not mean they cannot
lowball them a bit to make a nice profit.. but not give them 1% of the
value of the coins!
<< <i>Collectors like to complain about dealers and excoriate them for the great deals that they get. However, the same collectors crow about what a great deal they get when they cherry pick or RIP a dealer. They expect to be praised for their own conduct that they criticze a dealer for. >>
There's a BIG difference between buying from a professional coin dealer who should know what he's doing and buying from a widow who knows nothing about coins. Also, when you buy a rare variety worth $250 from a dealer for $50, there's a good chance the dealer paid less than $20 from someone who walked in off the street to sell him the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
TRUTH
<< <i>What if all the rare dates in the OP scenario were fakes or altered coins? Would the ripoff be a ripoff now?
TRUTH[/q
..............could that be KARMA?
<< <i>Sorry, there are many good fakes. Sometimes, you make an offer only to find out there are fakes in a collection that the buyer thought were real. It happens to all buyers, including experts. No one here on this forum knows the entire story, so passing judgement is presumptious.
TRUTH >>
well what would you do then if that happened to you? If you were
the dealer and you bought 100 coins and seven were fake including
a key?
Have a generic contract in writing that allows you to recover some
of your money perhaps?
Most dealers would gladly make a written appraisal for $100 an hour. Then, the seller can shop around. Offers from dealers are free, but free means the dealer makes money on the purchase. I don't expect to walk into an attorney's office and ask for free hourly advice or information, nor an accountant, nor an engineer.
TRUTH
the dealer and you bought 100 coins and seven were fake including
a key?
I have had that happen several times. I eat the purchase. That's the cost of business. I don't whine about my mistakes, just learn from them.
TRUTH
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>Please tell me who the honest guy is in that area. I need a local B&M >>
The two that I have found to be helpful are Central Jersey Coins in Bound Brook. And Raab Coins in Flemington. Rob at Central Jersey doesn't talk much but he will let you spend hours going through stuff. Randy at Raab Coins will talk your ear off but his immediate selection is limited. If you call him in advance he will have what your looking for when you come.
Tom
<< <i>They goto the dealer for this information!
Most dealers would gladly make a written appraisal for $100 an hour. Then, the seller can shop around. Offers from dealers are free, but free means the dealer makes money on the purchase. I don't expect to walk into an attorney's office and ask for free hourly advice or information, nor an accountant, nor an engineer.
TRUTH >>
excellent point and I concede to your arguement. The seller should
make their goal clear and determine what price an appraisal should
be or if they wish to get an offer for the dealer to buy.