In need of help on my project!!!

gecko109

I need some good advice on a minor screwup in my project on the mini silver hand poured bars. It seems I was just a little too ambitious about stamping the weight in grams in the format of "17.2G". As it turns out, I will not have enough room to stamp the weight in that format unless I use 1.5mm punches which are VERY small and tough to see. So now I think I may have to resort to stamping the grams in whole numbers (17G) instead. Here is where the problem lies....alot of the bars are 13.7, 14.8, and 15.9. In other words, they fall just shy of the next number. I obviously dont want to round up because then the bar is misleading. However, if I round down a 13.8 gram bar to 13G, will you guys be mad that I charged you for 13.8 grams, although you are getting 13.8 grams, yet the bar reads just 13? Please help me out with this dilemma fellas!

rgCoinGuy

Your just gonna have to eat the overage with your 3 times spot pricing.

edit for stupidity

cars

I would prefer to see the 3 digit stamp even if its small. How would it look if you stamped it on the side with a little larger stamp, I've seen this on other bars. Logo on top, Serial on bottom, weight on one side and .999 on other side or same as weight.

gecko109

Here is a quick sample of what the 2 different formats look like. As you can see, the "large font" is much more pleasing than the small. Stamping these bars on their sides will present new problems as they have sloped sides and are not very stable.

cars

Is that a 6 or G? The last digit on top? Small digits look fine to me although the larger digits are a bit more crisp and nicer looking.

gecko109

<< <i>Is that a 6 or G? The last digit on top? Small digits look fine to me although the larger digits are a bit more crisp and nicer looking. >>




It was in the "G" slot of the set of punches I bought. Maybe they screwed me and put a "6" in its place.

gimli89

how bout 16+G 18+G etc.

Or
can you scrape/polish off some to bring weight to say example 16g or 16.1 g and then stamp even number sell for that?

SpaceMonkey

how about sideways... landscape... instead of vertical like you have?







-sm

Bobk

What Spacemonkey said.

gecko109

<< <i>how about sideways... landscape... instead of vertical like you have?







-sm >>




Now why didnt I think of that???? Oh yeah, cuz I need the top 8mm or so of the bar for the customized logo. Rgcoinguy might have it right...I may need to just "eat" any overage on the bars.

BBQnBLUES

Gecko;

Maybe you should consider pouring "Finger Bars" much like those found by Mel Fisher.. The larger bars would be more appealing..

gecko109

<< <i>Gecko;

Maybe you should consider pouring "Finger Bars" much like those found by Mel Fisher.. The larger bars would be more appealing.. >>




If these do well enough, there will be more styles/sizes coming. Arent those "finger bars" machined though and not poured? They almost look like a kitkat bar, right?

fc

that is why many poured bars are shaved down to the correct weight... well that is what i always thought happened to those older
10 ounce poured engelhard bars with the rough edges around the
bottom areas...

you simply have to round down.

gecko109

<< <i>that is why many poured bars are shaved down to the correct weight... well that is what i always thought happened to those older
10 ounce poured engelhard bars with the rough edges around the
bottom areas...

you simply have to round down. >>




So for the example of a 13.8 gram bar. Is it ok to charge the customer for 13.8 grams, and then deliver a bar thats marked as 13 G? Thats what im really getting at here.

cars

<< <i>

<< <i>Gecko;

Maybe you should consider pouring "Finger Bars" much like those found by Mel Fisher.. The larger bars would be more appealing.. >>




If these do well enough, there will be more styles/sizes coming. Arent those "finger bars" machined though and not poured? They almost look like a kitkat bar, right? >>



I'd like a ingot shaped like a roll of dimes. Shaving some of the bottom may not be bad idea to get to even weight.

boatbldr

If the weight stamped on the bar is not correct, don't even bother. Get it right.

JeremyDie1

Hey gecko. Is that my 18.1 gram bar in the picture?

PerryHall

<< <i>If the weight stamped on the bar is not correct, don't even bother. Get it right. >>



Agree. If space is the problem, put the "G." directly under the weight but show the exact weight to the nearest tenth.

gecko109

I have made a decision. I will be using only whole numbers in grams for these bars. If a bar weighs 13.9 grams, then I take the loss on the 9/10ths of a gram. I decided to do this for 2 reasons. First, its simply a much more pleasing looking format than would be a smaller, more cluttered font. Secondly, now I can GUARANTEE that your bar will weigh AT LEAST what is stamped onto it, and in many cases a smidge more. Take ANY hand poured bar from JM, Engelhard, or any private mint and put it on a scale. There is a 95% or greater chance that the bar is slightly overweight based on what its stamping says.

mhammerman

Hummmm. Looks like you have some sprue residuals on the sides or maybe it's the mold. Two suggestions: 1) get a small jewellers file from one of your jewelry shop buddies and shave the weight from the fractional to a whole number and then lightly braze the parts that you filed. The filing should be on the sprue reminants, acute edges such as on the bottom of the mold, and areas where the cast produced little bumps or anomalies that take away from the aesthetic presentation of the individual bars. That's what they did at the mint with the gold planchets before they struck the coins back in the old handcraft days of the mints. Lightly buff with a jewelers cloth to take away any discoloration from the brazing and to tidy up the bar. Actually, as a concept, you could adjust the bar with a clean filing on the top of the bar to bring it to within .01 gm and then stamp your logo over it, hummmmmm, yep, I'd try that to see what it looked like. Stamp the bar on the bottom side using your larger font, lengthwise and put your logo on the front in the middle, landscape. 2) Use the smaller font and take it to the first decimal like you are doing on the bottom and put your logo on the top. It's a small bar, why shouldn't the font be a little smaller. Play with these ideas and it will evolve to something you like. Don't be too married to any one production/finishing method until you get a clear idea of how you would like to make the presentation. Play with your mold some and maybe search out things in auction catalogues, you might find something. Heck, why don't you just break down and go see a local jewelry fabricator B&M and show the guy what you got and what you are trying to do and I'm sure your level will rise multiples of where it is now. Don't take that comment wrong, those little barlettes are quite nice in concept and with a little help with production, you will have a worthy product. Enjoy.

In my thinking, you are producing the bar equivilent of a round in that it is privately produced, more of a "cool" thing than something someone is going to lay out a thousand buks for since it's not really assayed and it's not anything other than just a cool little bar that's made of silver. Look at it like this, you are making glorified shot or you are making nice bars...you decide. Sure, it's worth money but it's not going to trade at an investment premium like an Engelhard or a J&M or pamp or any of the names that trade sight unseed. There is a large following for ingots if you watch the auctions, the really cute ones like from the IRS and early mints and US gov. bring exceptional premiums over melt, many multiples of engelhards or the like but they are old and somewhat rare. You could create a kind of a coin nerd/ingot nerd niche piece there and with a little production evolution, you could have something that the jewelry guys might want to fashion into some kind of piece. Better get after that before your idea gets ripped because...they are cute little bars.

Hope this helped; I used to do lost wax casting of silver and gold and it was always quite enjoyable but what I'd do is contace clousejewelers on this thread and ask him what to do...hummmmmmmm.

Oh, yeah, you can just dip the bar in a coin dip after you have it the way you want it and then use the jewelers cloth after a good rinse and dry.

gecko109

Thanks for the great advice Mhammer!!!

SilverBaron

I agree with boatbldr..... stamping the correct weight is critical.... both from an accuracy and a credability stance.

A few suggestions.....

1. Would you be able to use the larger stamps for the weight and the small stamp for the "G"?

2. Would you be able to use the small stamps for the weight and the large stamp for the "G"?

3. Use the stamp set you like best and put the "GRAMS" under the weight.

4. It would be tedious... buttttt... weighing out exact amounts of grain and placing it in the molds first? [doing away with the ".x"].

5. Shaving off small amounts of silver to make the bars weigh a specific amount is very time consuming and
it might give the apperance that the bar has been "short" shaved.

6. You might want the get a small stamp for ".999 Fine" .



Great project Sir!!

mkman123

Gecko, please put the correct weight on the bars and I agree with what Silverbaron said, it is good for credibility.

I mean one day if I wanted to sell a 17.4 g bar and its labeled 17g, the store might weigh it and see how its 17.4 grams but is labeled 17 grams and might not think the bar is credible and may not take it. Same if you round up and put 15g on a 14.7 gram bar. The stores will look at it suspiciously.

I hope you change your mind.

Mike

DoubleEagle59

make bigger bars.

gecko109

<< <i>Gecko, please put the correct weight on the bars and I agree with what Silverbaron said, it is good for credibility.

I mean one day if I wanted to sell a 17.4 g bar and its labeled 17g, the store might weigh it and see how its 17.4 grams but is labeled 17 grams and might not think the bar is credible and may not take it. Same if you round up and put 15g on a 14.7 gram bar. The stores will look at it suspiciously.

I hope you change your mind.

Mike >>




Weigh any hand poured Engelhard or JM silver bar and see if the stamped weight matches the actual weight. Its almost ALWAYS a little heavier than the stated weight. Same will apply here.

mkman123

Gecko, later on when you make larger bars, do you think you will put exact weight?

Thanks

gecko109

Here are the 3 hand poured bars that I own which are small enough to be weighed on my scale (150g max). Notice how each one is overweight a smidge? Dont take my word for it, try it yourself with an old poured bar. Its just the nature of the beast. Mkman, the only issues of "credibility" would be if I was OVERSTATING the weights, or rounding UP. I am doing the opposite though, im taking a 16.9 gram bar and stamping it as 16 grams.

Stamped as 4.000, actual weight is 4.08 troy ounces


Stamped as 3.000, actual weight is 3.11 troy ounces


Stamped as 3.000, actual weight is 3.08 troy ounces

mkman123

ahhh I see. Well, I'm cool with what your doing on the stamps then.

SilverEagles92

Gecko, I'm just curious - did you buy the lots of silver shot that APMEX had for sale, or are these made from .999 silver rounds or similar?

SpaceMonkey

i just think it's time to get a new scale gecko








-sm

CaptHenway

FWIW, back in the Mid-1970's while I was working at Coin World, one of the ladies who worked in the graphic arts department and did custom jewelry on the side asked me to pick up 20 ounce of silver for her at a coin show I was going to. I got 20 misc. one ounce bars that a dealer had in a basket for somewhere around $3 each, IIRC.
Back at the office on Monday morning, out of curiosity I weighed them on our triple beam balance. The weights ran from 1.03 to 1.08 troy ounce. Apparently because silver was so cheap back then, all of the makers of the art bars deliberately made them a tad heavy so that nobody would ever complain about short weight.
TD

gecko109

<< <i>Gecko, I'm just curious - did you buy the lots of silver shot that APMEX had for sale, or are these made from .999 silver rounds or similar? >>




Every bar is, and will be made ONLY with the silver shot from APMEX.

Smittys

I think exact weight would be better given the small size of the loafs. jmho

CaptHenway

ttt

cinman14

<< <i>Gecko, please put the correct weight on the bars and I agree with what Silverbaron said, it is good for credibility.

I mean one day if I wanted to sell a 17.4 g bar and its labeled 17g, the store might weigh it and see how its 17.4 grams but is labeled 17 grams and might not think the bar is credible and may not take it. Same if you round up and put 15g on a 14.7 gram bar. The stores will look at it suspiciously.

I hope you change your mind.

Mike >>



Mike,

The credibility isuue will not be the extra weight. The issue on the second hand market will be the purity issue.

If asked, you will need to submit an Assay report along with your bars to prove purity. And this isn't cheap. So along
with your 3X's melt investment plan on adding another hundred bucks to your investment for the reports.

My local B@M that has been in business almost 25 years will not buy these at all. I asked them to rub it on their silver tester
and they said they have had bars with a lead base that had .999 poured over them...

So I sold it on ebay for 2.5 times what they would have offered...

I guess the moral to the story is. As long as you don't plan on selling these to a B@M shop and sell on a venue
like ebay or Craigs List you should be OK. Although I don't see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end.

Even the proprietor said he will buy them back at melt not 3 X's melt....

gecko109

<< <i>

<< <i>Gecko, please put the correct weight on the bars and I agree with what Silverbaron said, it is good for credibility.

I mean one day if I wanted to sell a 17.4 g bar and its labeled 17g, the store might weigh it and see how its 17.4 grams but is labeled 17 grams and might not think the bar is credible and may not take it. Same if you round up and put 15g on a 14.7 gram bar. The stores will look at it suspiciously.

I hope you change your mind.

Mike >>



Mike,

The credibility isuue will not be the extra weight. The issue on the second hand market will be the purity issue.

If asked, you will need to submit an Assay report along with your bars to prove purity. And this isn't cheap. So along
with your 3X's melt investment plan on adding another hundred bucks to your investment for the reports.

My local B@M that has been in business almost 25 years will not buy these at all. I asked them to rub it on their silver tester
and they said they have had bars with a lead base that had .999 poured over them...

So I sold it on ebay for 2.5 times what they would have offered...

I guess the moral to the story is. As long as you don't plan on selling these to a B@M shop and sell on a venue
like ebay or Craigs List you should be OK. Although I don't see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end.

Even the proprietor said he will buy them back at melt not 3 X's melt.... >>





sold for $43/oz (4x melt)

sold for $36/oz (3.5x melt)

sold for $36/oz (3.5x melt)


Cinman, do any of those bars look slightly familiar? They are lumps of hand poured silver. They are not as intricately stamped as mine. They dont have as pleasing of a shape as mine. And they arent even serial numbered like mine. Yet they all sold for OVER 3x melt recently. Im selling my bars to the forum members at very fair prices. As far as your contention that a typical B&M probably wont even pay spot for these, you are absolutely correct. But why the hell would you take such a neat oddity such as my bars and sell them to a shop anyway? Cinman....the fact is im pouring 16-17 GRAM bars, not 16-17 KILO bars. Perhaps you should lighten up?

mkman123

Cinman, thanks for the info. I'm buying a few from Gecko not as an investment but as a neat novelty piece. If it becomes valuable in the future, cool, if not, no biggy.

If everyone on this board started making their own bar, I would probably buy 1 or 2 just because it came from someone here.

If Gecko makes any oz bars, I probably would avoid as it would be too much for me unless he prices those cheaper. A 4 ozer for 120+ would be too much for me to afford, but a 13 gram bar for 13, thats ok.

cinman14

gecko109

Cinman...did you type this or not?

" guess the moral to the story is. As long as you don't plan on selling these to a B@M shop and sell on a venue
like ebay or Craigs List you should be OK. Although I don't see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end."


See the part where it says "I dont see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end" ??? You were wrong.

cinman14

<< <i>Cinman...did you type this or not?

" guess the moral to the story is. As long as you don't plan on selling these to a B@M shop and sell on a venue
like ebay or Craigs List you should be OK. Although I don't see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end."


See the part where it says "I dont see you getting 3 times melt on the sell end" ??? You were wrong.
>>



I guess if you want to pull the ones that close for 3 x's that is fine.. Go ahead and make your point.

I will include one as well..

1oz loaf style bar,,,

If you look at the one's gecko included in his post you will see it is ONE buyer that paid this crazy price per ounce..

I suspect a shill bidder trying to set a price for these for future bidders... Let's keep an eye out for this seller and see
how many he sells to different buyers. I guess if you plan on selling in the future you will need to save this buyers info
and let him know when you plan on selling. Because no others seem to bring that price..

Included is my 2 ounce bar I sold a few months back. And all the other pour style at that time were bringing
close to that price...

Lets also not forget silver can bring big swings at different times. You can have 5 different auctions going and they
will almost always bring a high and a low price.. I will be curious when Phil sends these to Ebay. Lets watch his closing
auctions closely.... And the final bidders as well....

2 once bar

cinman14

1ounce
bar
cost to invest
1 ounce don't know if any sold yet
3 ounce
5 once
13 an ounce shipped


Buy the graphite mold on ebay for under 20 bucks. Get you some silver shot from Apmex and take it to a local
jewler and have him melt your shot and pour your molds... I am going to check with a few jewlers in my area
and see what their melt and pour cost will be....
mold link

gecko109

<< <i>1ounce
bar
cost to invest
1 ounce don't know if any sold yet
3 ounce
5 once
13 an ounce shipped


Buy the graphite mold on ebay for under 20 bucks. Get you some silver shot from Apmex and take it to a local
jewler and have him melt your shot and pour your molds... I am going to check with a few jewlers in my area
and see what their melt and pour cost will be....
mold link >>




Definately get back to us on your new project Cinman. Oh, how much for a custom made hardened steel logo stamp by the way? You forgot to include one of those.

cinman14

cinman14

And you are making it sound harder than it really is... A crucible and propane torch will melt .999 silver.

line your crucible with Borax prior to melting to make the silver pour easy.

There is no need to invest 1000.000 dollars in a generic bar setup.
Heat treated metal stamps will suffice to make your numbers and letters...

cars

I don't understand what the disagreement is about. people pay more for small gram size bars. You're only showing 1 oz bars. Its the novelty of the item not the silver content. You can't sell the shot glass or ashtray made of shells you bought in Florida for the same price you paid either. Some enjoy collecting such items and they will pay for the novelty of it, Value is in the eye of the beholder. I've paid $30-$40 an ounce for silver in the last month and had no problem doing so. I may not get that back when I sell it but I could care less. Don't plan on selling. I will be purchasing some of Gecko's bars for 3x spot but I will not be buying 100oz's of it for investment purposes b/c I know there would be the possibility I'd lose my Cassh if I ever had to sell. Although I'd bet I could get a great deal of my $ back if I listed on eBay.

mkman123

cinman, if you decide to make a few let me know, like to get one from you.

adamlaneus

<< <i>And you are making it sound harder than it really is... A crucible and propane torch will melt .999 silver.

line your crucible with Borax prior to melting to make the silver pour easy.

There is no need to invest 1000.000 dollars in a generic bar setup.
Heat treated metal stamps will suffice to make your numbers and letters... >>



Silver will absorb lots of oxygen from the air when molten and will evolve it back out as it solidifies. This can cause your casting to be unsound.

Either a lid on that crucible or a covering of charcoal would serve to help with that issue.

I've got a fascinating 1200+ page book on metallurgy. "Metals Handbook". Nice read, I use it to fall asleep. It's interesting what certain contaminants will do.

cinman14

<< <i>I don't understand what the disagreement is about. people pay more for small gram size bars. You're only showing 1 oz bars. Its the novelty of the item not the silver content. You can't sell the shot glass or ashtray made of shells you bought in Florida for the same price you paid either. Some enjoy collecting such items and they will pay for the novelty of it, Value is in the eye of the beholder. I've paid $30-$40 an ounce for silver in the last month and had no problem doing so. I may not get that back when I sell it but I could care less. Don't plan on selling. I will be purchasing some of Gecko's bars for 3x spot but I will not be buying 100oz's of it for investment purposes b/c I know there would be the possibility I'd lose my Cassh if I ever had to sell. Although I'd bet I could get a great deal of my $ back if I listed on eBay. >>



There is no disagreement on my end. I was answering a question from Mike about the issues that may come
up when you need to sell.. My comment was that unless you plan to sell on a auction type venue it will be hard to recoup your investment.

And I mentioned the fact that you might be asked to provide a Assay report depending on the volume you are
trying to sell. Not being a common well known name in the silver business. And the increase in fake bars being
sold on ebay. You might run into a problem selling outside this forum. It was Mr. Jackass that unloaded his rants
on me.

I don't have a problem in the least with him selling bars for whatever amount he wants to sell them for. He chimed in about
his "high cost" to pour these. I simply showed that it doesn't cost that much to get started and pour your own.

The Jeweler who is making my wifes anniversary ring said he would pour me 10 ounces worth of bars for 15 bucks if I brought him the mold sizes I wanted and the shot from Apmex.

gecko109

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't understand what the disagreement is about. people pay more for small gram size bars. You're only showing 1 oz bars. Its the novelty of the item not the silver content. You can't sell the shot glass or ashtray made of shells you bought in Florida for the same price you paid either. Some enjoy collecting such items and they will pay for the novelty of it, Value is in the eye of the beholder. I've paid $30-$40 an ounce for silver in the last month and had no problem doing so. I may not get that back when I sell it but I could care less. Don't plan on selling. I will be purchasing some of Gecko's bars for 3x spot but I will not be buying 100oz's of it for investment purposes b/c I know there would be the possibility I'd lose my Cassh if I ever had to sell. Although I'd bet I could get a great deal of my $ back if I listed on eBay. >>



There is no disagreement on my end. I was answering a question from Mike about the issues that may come
up when you need to sell.. My comment was that unless you plan to sell on a auction type venue it will be hard to recoup your investment.

And I mentioned the fact that you might be asked to provide a Assay report depending on the volume you are
trying to sell. Not being a common well known name in the silver business. And the increase in fake bars being
sold on ebay. You might run into a problem selling outside this forum. It was Mr. Jackass that unloaded his rants
on me.

I don't have a problem in the least with him selling bars for whatever amount he wants to sell them for. He chimed in about
his "high cost" to pour these. I simply showed that it doesn't cost that much to get started and pour your own.

The Jeweler who is making my wifes anniversary ring said he would pour me 10 ounces worth of bars for 15 bucks if I brought him the mold sizes I wanted and the shot from Apmex. >>




Wow! Your jeweler will melt, and pour 18 mini bars (17g each) for just $15??? JUMP ON THAT Cinman! I wish he was in my area, I coulda saved a few bucks on my set-up. By the way Cinman, YOU stated that the people who bought these bars from me could NOT get 3x melt in a resale. I simply proved that you dont know what you are talking about.

Sincerely,
Mr. Jackass

cinman14

TexasNationals

Hell, I have a MAP torch, a ceramic crucible and 10 10 ounce ingots I used to use to met lead from tire weights to store until I cast more bullets and a set of treated punches. All I need is the silver and I could start cranking these out tomorrow. I sure in hell wouldn't ask you guys to pay 3x melt for them. I figure it couldn't cost me more that 50 cents in gas to melt the silver for each bar.