<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>It's like the Mona Lisa. Putting a number on the holder really means nothing.....this coin, it doesn't really matter if it is 67, or 68, or 69. >>
Wanna get close to that feeling of owning an early American copper in MS-68 or MS-69 red? Then get a copy from the, now sadly defunct, Gallery Mint. Sure they are stamped COPY, but Ron Landis did a stunning job of recreating the engraving and they were struck on real screw presses. And for just a few bucks...dang!
Stick with the real Gallery Mint product and you won't be disappointed. The 1793 coins are tougher to find, but the 1794 and 1796 are easier to locate.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane >>
The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. Since there are only 3 basic qualities in a coin plus toning if it applies, it's rediculous to base a MS69 high grade on 2 out of the 3 qualities. The luster on a red cent will always be greater than a brown coin giving a coin higher eye appeal. I really don't care how they explain it, most here will believe anything a TPGS will say, therefore, kool-aid drinkers. But on the other hand, the RD, RB and BN should not be used in the extreme grades since a RED cent would be expected for those upper grades. But since it doesn't matter, let the carnage run. And for some additional thought, assuming all early cents started out red when first mnted, it's reasonable to say that a coin that has turned brown has obviously been affected by the enviorment it was subjected to through it's (improper) storage. However difficult it is to keep the copper's properties from changing from red to brown, this damage does disqualifies it from being called a near-perfect coin. MS68BN? No
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. >>
Have you ever looked at a flawless, almost flawless, piece of RB/BN copper in 66 or above? If so, then you will note that many still retain their luster. How can you tell, from this pic or by seeing this coin in hand, if this coin lacks luster?
I would also like to hear your stance on silver toned coins, since the toning should block all luster underneath.
A color change to copper is very similar to the toning change on silver, and could be seen as equal in definition.
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane >>
The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. Since there are only 3 basic qualities in a coin plus toning if it applies, it's rediculous to base a MS69 high grade on 2 out of the 3 qualities. The luster on a red cent will always be greater than a brown coin giving a coin higher eye appeal. I really don't care how they explain it, most here will believe anything a TPGS will say, therefore, kool-aid drinkers. But on the other hand, the RD, RB and BN should not be used in the extreme grades since a RED cent would be expected for those upper grades. But since it doesn't matter, let the carnage run. And for some additional thought, assuming all early cents started out red when first mnted, it's reasonable to say that a coin that has turned brown has obviously been affected by the enviorment it was subjected to through it's (improper) storage. However difficult it is to keep the copper's properties from changing from red to brown, this damage does disqualifies it from being called a near-perfect coin. MS68BN? No
Leo >>
So a modern MS70 RD copper coin in a slab today ceases to be a MS70 coin 150 years from now if the color changed to BN? Grade is based on CONDITION.....not color.
<< <i> The lack of red is also the lack of luster ... >>
No, that is not correct. There are plenty of lustrous brown coins.
And just to be clear, I am not talking about EAC grading standards, but the current standards used by PCGS and NGC (which are more closely related to the ANA grading standards than EAC).
The "three qualities" you reference I assume are strike, luster, and surface marks...correct? If so, you are actually missing the fourth and most important...eye appeal.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>So a modern MS70 RD copper coin in a slab today ceases to be a MS70 coin 150 years from now if the color changed to BN? Grade is based on CONDITION.....not color. >>
Yes, but it would be MS-70 BN...assuming no change in grading standards. You even yelled it in your post. Grade is based on condition. A perfect coin is a perfect coin...regardless if it is red or brown, rainbow toned or blazing white. The grade on the slab is based on surface marks, strike, luster, and eye appeal. It really is that simple.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i> The lack of red is also the lack of luster ... >>
No, that is not correct. There are plenty of lustrous brown coins.
And just to be clear, I am not talking about EAC grading standards, but the current standards used by PCGS and NGC (which are more closely related to the ANA grading standards than EAC).
The "three qualities" you reference I assume are strike, luster, and surface marks...correct? If so, you are actually missing the fourth and most important...eye appeal.
Lane >>
The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo >>
A collector can believe in any numismatic reality they choose. It's when that reality runs afoul of the market that the differences emerge. A keen insight on grading in the current marketplace can be found by reading PGCS's grading book. Or for a live experience, there are the ANA grading courses at Summer Seminar. It is quite enlightening for many of the participants.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. >>
Have you ever looked at a flawless, almost flawless, piece of RB/BN copper in 66 or above? If so, then you will note that many still retain their luster. How can you tell, from this pic or by seeing this coin in hand, if this coin lacks luster?
I would also like to hear your stance on silver toned coins, since the toning should block all luster underneath.
A color change to copper is very similar to the toning change on silver, and could be seen as equal in definition. >>
I have several coppers whether they be old or new, all my reds have much more luster than those that have turned brown. A RB would have more luster than a BN. But here's some more reasoning for you. if a coin were to continue toning over an indefinite period of time until it turned black, how much luster do you think will have survived with that coin? Interesting thought since no-one has ever seen a lustrous black coin. Although, there are some black beauties in the Jefferson nickel series but that is of another matter.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo >>
A collector can believe in any numismatic reality they choose. It's when that reality runs afoul of the market that the differences emerge. A keen insight on grading in the current marketplace can be found by reading PGCS's grading book. Or for a live experience, there are the ANA grading courses at Summer Seminar. It is quite enlightening for many of the participants.
Lane >>
You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo >>
Thanks for the update. I will have to mention these changes to the PCGS graders I teach the grading class with as they are obviously unaware as well. They are naively plugging away considering strike as something relevant.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo >>
Thanks for the update. I will have to mention these changes to the PCGS graders I teach the grading class with as they are obviously unaware as well. They are naively plugging away considering strike as something relevant.
<< <i> I have several coppers whether they be old or new, all my reds have much more luster than those that have turned brown. A RB would have more luster than a BN. But here's some more reasoning for you. if a coin were to continue toning over an indefinite period of time until it turned black, how much luster do you think will have survived with that coin? Interesting thought since no-one has ever seen a lustrous black coin. Although, there are some black beauties in the Jefferson nickel series but that is of another matter.
Leo >>
How old are your "old" coppers that you are using in your comparisons? Any from the 1790's? I have seen plenty of brown coppers with superb luster, including this particular coin when it was displayed some time back. True, they are no longer "RED," but they still possess strong luster and excellent eye appeal. And I HAVE seen some lustrous black coins (early silver). These coins were truly black in color but the luster still shined through. One might have been tempted to dip those black coins, but with the removal of the toning would be the removal of surface metal molecules (including deeper molecules for the darker toning) and that would destroy the remaining luster.
That Wreath cent is a Sheldon - 9, and according to the Noyes census that was published in his picture book in 2006, it is the third finest known of the variety. The two that are ahead of it have more original mint color. The EAC grade is MS-63, Ave Plus.
The two coins that are head of it are both EAC grade MS-65. One is called "a Gem" and the other is called "Choice."
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>That Wreath cent is a Sheldon - 9, and according to the Noyes census that was published in his picture book in 2006, it is the third finest known of the variety. The two that are ahead of it have more original mint color. The EAC grade is MS-63, Ave Plus.
The two coins that are head of it are both EAC grade MS-65. One is called "a Gem" and the other is called "Choice." >>
Bill, i don't know much about EAC grading (other then they are extremely tough!) but how much does the brown color of the coin limit the grade in the EAC system?
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Color is an issue, but the two better coins are Red & Brown pieces with virtually no uneven color areas and, beleive it or not, even better eye appeal. The #1 coin from the photos is a stunner.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Color is an issue, but the two better coins are Red & Brown pieces with virtually no uneven color areas and, beleive it or not, even better eye appeal. The #1 coin from the photos is a stunner. >>
I believe it, and probably raw knowing the EAC nuts!
I was just wondering if the MS69 coin could have been better from a technical standpoint on hits, strike, etc. but lost a large number of points for the color. While the others lost little to no points for color but a few for strike/hits/etc.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Coin #1 is better than the coin that started this thread in every way. It has fewer marks and the mint color is remarkable. Coin #2 has more mint color than coin #3 and similar number of the marks.
As for the issue of slabbing, most EAC collectors don’t like plastic holders because they think that they are moisture traps. They also like to examine the edges of these coins which a vine and bar design on that area. As for grading I’ll take an EAC grade any day over a slab grade. Let’s put it this way. The annual EAC auction is the one place where you could bid and be assured of the grade, even if you can’t see the coin. The problem is the prices in EAC sales are quite strong. Be prepared to forget the catalog price listings and then some.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Coin #1 is better than the coin that started this thread in every way. It has fewer marks and the mint color is remarkable. Coin #2 has more mint color than coin #3 and similar number of the marks.
As for the issue of slabbing, most EAC collectors don’t like plastic holders because they think that they are moisture traps. They also like to examine the edges of these coins which a vine and bar design on that area. As for grading I’ll take an EAC grade any day over a slab grade. Let’s put it this way. The annual EAC auction is the one place where you could bid and be assured of the grade, even if you can’t see the coin. The problem is the prices in EAC sales are quite strong. Be prepared to forget the catalog price listings and then some. >>
Bill I know about the EAC grade over the TPGs grade, i don't think i've ever seen a coin graded higher by EAC, or even at the same level for the same grade. You're post made me go check out the Noyes 2006 book, it looks nice but it's hard to justify spending $200 on just two years worth of coins i don't actively collect, hmmm maybe though. Looks like pretty pictures! lol
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
One of the most powerful comments on grading (IMHO) came from that EAC icon, Doug Bird. I was visiting him at his table (at some show a number of year back) and spotted a drop-dead gorgeous mid-grade Chain Cent. As I was enjoying its company up close, I quietly asked him how he graded it. He smiled and replied, "I grade it $30,000. How do you grade it?"
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>One of the most powerful comments on grading (IMHO) came from that EAC icon, Doug Bird. I was visiting him at his table (at some show a number of year back) and spotted a drop-dead gorgeous mid-grade Chain Cent. As I was enjoying its company up close, I quietly asked him how he graded it. He smiled and replied, "I grade it $30,000. How do you grade it?"
Lane >>
I'm hoping you said "SOLD"!
EAC is one of the things i've always admired and wanted to get into but never quite have. Outside of the large cents from the 1700s, copper just has never really appealed too much to me. I LOVE the large cents from the 1700s though.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Here's one of those missing coins from that submission, a lowly 63!
According to the PCGS Certification Database, the requested certification number is defined as the following:
COIN INFORMATION Cert Verification #: 2368135 PCGS Coin #: 1341 Date, mintmark: 1793 Chain Denomination: 1C Variety: AMERICA Minor Variety: Mint Error: Pedigree: Country: The United States of America Grade: MS63BN Mintage: 36,103 PCGS Price GuideSM Value: $280,000
<< <i>One of the most powerful comments on grading (IMHO) came from that EAC icon, Doug Bird. I was visiting him at his table (at some show a number of year back) and spotted a drop-dead gorgeous mid-grade Chain Cent. As I was enjoying its company up close, I quietly asked him how he graded it. He smiled and replied, "I grade it $30,000. How do you grade it?"
Lane >>
I'm hoping you said "SOLD"!
EAC is one of the things i've always admired and wanted to get into but never quite have. Outside of the large cents from the 1700s, copper just has never really appealed too much to me. I LOVE the large cents from the 1700s though. >>
I did, but Doug backed out of the deal when he saw me try to pay with modern cents...3 million of them!
Seriously, it was long enough ago that $30K for the coin was a good price, but not a steal. And even if it was, it's not like I had the extra funds. IIRC, it was a VF-20 by ANA standards and either an F-15 or VF-20 by EAC standards. Regardless, it was a "coin of opportunity" and I think it went fast.
My interest in the coin was that I teaching a grading class at the show and I wanted the students to see what a nice, original early copper looked like. Of course, Doug has LOTS of original early coppers.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@rainbowroosie said:
I've held that coin -- simply awesome -- one of the greatest coins in the world.
I have had the pleasure as well.
It is odd to think that the simple act of holding a round disc of metal in your hand could cause such intense feelings of awe to stir, but it does. It certainly does.
Comments
We all work for something and we all hope for something greater.
Edible hats
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all? >>
How so?
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>It's like the Mona Lisa. Putting a number on the holder really means nothing.....this coin, it doesn't really matter if it is 67, or 68, or 69. >>
Don't be silly, Of course it does$$$$$$$
Stick with the real Gallery Mint product and you won't be disappointed. The 1793 coins are tougher to find, but the 1794 and 1796 are easier to locate.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
For some reason, Major Coolidge's watch just popped into my head.
But I do like the coin!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane >>
The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. Since there are only 3 basic qualities in a coin plus toning if it applies, it's rediculous to base a MS69 high grade on 2 out of the 3 qualities. The luster on a red cent will always be greater than a brown coin giving a coin higher eye appeal. I really don't care how they explain it, most here will believe anything a TPGS will say, therefore, kool-aid drinkers.
But on the other hand, the RD, RB and BN should not be used in the extreme grades since a RED cent would be expected for those upper grades. But since it doesn't matter, let the carnage run.
And for some additional thought, assuming all early cents started out red when first mnted, it's reasonable to say that a coin that has turned brown has obviously been affected by the enviorment it was subjected to through it's (improper) storage. However difficult it is to keep the copper's properties from changing from red to brown, this damage does disqualifies it from being called a near-perfect coin.
MS68BN? No
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. >>
Have you ever looked at a flawless, almost flawless, piece of RB/BN copper in 66 or above?
If so, then you will note that many still retain their luster.
How can you tell, from this pic or by seeing this coin in hand, if this coin lacks luster?
I would also like to hear your stance on silver toned coins, since the toning should block all luster underneath.
A color change to copper is very similar to the toning change on silver, and could be seen as equal in definition.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How can a coin grade MS69BN? (BROWN)? I guess if it were RED, it would've made MS70. How about a MS70Brown? Doesn't make any sense at all?
Leo >>
Sure it does. The confusion lies with how color and grade are intermingled. Original color is not a determinant for the grade in that a cent will grade MS-XX whether or not its red, red-brown, or brown. The coins will be priced differently depending on color and eye appeal, but the grade will be the same.
The same is true for toned vs. white silver pieces.
Lane >>
The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. Since there are only 3 basic qualities in a coin plus toning if it applies, it's rediculous to base a MS69 high grade on 2 out of the 3 qualities. The luster on a red cent will always be greater than a brown coin giving a coin higher eye appeal. I really don't care how they explain it, most here will believe anything a TPGS will say, therefore, kool-aid drinkers.
But on the other hand, the RD, RB and BN should not be used in the extreme grades since a RED cent would be expected for those upper grades. But since it doesn't matter, let the carnage run.
And for some additional thought, assuming all early cents started out red when first mnted, it's reasonable to say that a coin that has turned brown has obviously been affected by the enviorment it was subjected to through it's (improper) storage. However difficult it is to keep the copper's properties from changing from red to brown, this damage does disqualifies it from being called a near-perfect coin.
MS68BN? No
Leo >>
So a modern MS70 RD copper coin in a slab today ceases to be a MS70 coin 150 years from now if the color changed to BN? Grade is based on CONDITION.....not color.
<< <i> The lack of red is also the lack of luster ... >>
No, that is not correct. There are plenty of lustrous brown coins.
And just to be clear, I am not talking about EAC grading standards, but the current standards used by PCGS and NGC (which are more closely related to the ANA grading standards than EAC).
The "three qualities" you reference I assume are strike, luster, and surface marks...correct? If so, you are actually missing the fourth and most important...eye appeal.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>So a modern MS70 RD copper coin in a slab today ceases to be a MS70 coin 150 years from now if the color changed to BN? Grade is based on CONDITION.....not color. >>
Yes, but it would be MS-70 BN...assuming no change in grading standards. You even yelled it in your post. Grade is based on condition. A perfect coin is a perfect coin...regardless if it is red or brown, rainbow toned or blazing white. The grade on the slab is based on surface marks, strike, luster, and eye appeal. It really is that simple.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i> The lack of red is also the lack of luster ... >>
No, that is not correct. There are plenty of lustrous brown coins.
And just to be clear, I am not talking about EAC grading standards, but the current standards used by PCGS and NGC (which are more closely related to the ANA grading standards than EAC).
The "three qualities" you reference I assume are strike, luster, and surface marks...correct? If so, you are actually missing the fourth and most important...eye appeal.
Lane >>
The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo >>
A collector can believe in any numismatic reality they choose. It's when that reality runs afoul of the market that the differences emerge. A keen insight on grading in the current marketplace can be found by reading PGCS's grading book. Or for a live experience, there are the ANA grading courses at Summer Seminar. It is quite enlightening for many of the participants.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>The lack of red is also the lack of luster and a MS66 through MS70 must have the quality of luster. >>
Have you ever looked at a flawless, almost flawless, piece of RB/BN copper in 66 or above?
If so, then you will note that many still retain their luster.
How can you tell, from this pic or by seeing this coin in hand, if this coin lacks luster?
I would also like to hear your stance on silver toned coins, since the toning should block all luster underneath.
A color change to copper is very similar to the toning change on silver, and could be seen as equal in definition. >>
I have several coppers whether they be old or new, all my reds have much more luster than those that have turned brown. A RB would have more luster than a BN.
But here's some more reasoning for you. if a coin were to continue toning over an indefinite period of time until it turned black, how much luster do you think will have survived with that coin? Interesting thought since no-one has ever seen a lustrous black coin. Although, there are some black beauties in the Jefferson nickel series but that is of another matter.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>The eye appeal of a coin is the overall assessment of the 3-4 qualities that make a coin desireable. It's not a quality, it is a separate descriptive of a coin based on the strike, grade/condition and luster of that coin and toning if it applies. Two other qualities, rare in some series, are proof-like fields or surfaces and an early die state (EDS) strike. A 7th quality is frost but applies mostly to proofs but extremely rare for some seires.
Leo >>
A collector can believe in any numismatic reality they choose. It's when that reality runs afoul of the market that the differences emerge. A keen insight on grading in the current marketplace can be found by reading PGCS's grading book. Or for a live experience, there are the ANA grading courses at Summer Seminar. It is quite enlightening for many of the participants.
Lane >>
You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo >>
Thanks for the update. I will have to mention these changes to the PCGS graders I teach the grading class with as they are obviously unaware as well. They are naively plugging away considering strike as something relevant.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>You are obviously unaware of the changes the ANA and PCGS made to the grading standards in 2006-7?, totaling eliminating the quality of strike from the standards, replacing it with "as struck". Or perhaps you're ignoring this fact as well. But there is a reason why it was removed.......
Leo >>
Thanks for the update. I will have to mention these changes to the PCGS graders I teach the grading class with as they are obviously unaware as well. They are naively plugging away considering strike as something relevant.
Lane >>
<< <i> I have several coppers whether they be old or new, all my reds have much more luster than those that have turned brown. A RB would have more luster than a BN.
But here's some more reasoning for you. if a coin were to continue toning over an indefinite period of time until it turned black, how much luster do you think will have survived with that coin? Interesting thought since no-one has ever seen a lustrous black coin. Although, there are some black beauties in the Jefferson nickel series but that is of another matter.
Leo >>
How old are your "old" coppers that you are using in your comparisons? Any from the 1790's? I have seen plenty of brown coppers with superb luster, including this particular coin when it was displayed some time back. True, they are no longer "RED," but they still possess strong luster and excellent eye appeal. And I HAVE seen some lustrous black coins (early silver). These coins were truly black in color but the luster still shined through. One might have been tempted to dip those black coins, but with the removal of the toning would be the removal of surface metal molecules (including deeper molecules for the darker toning) and that would destroy the remaining luster.
The two coins that are head of it are both EAC grade MS-65. One is called "a Gem" and the other is called "Choice."
<< <i>That Wreath cent is a Sheldon - 9, and according to the Noyes census that was published in his picture book in 2006, it is the third finest known of the variety. The two that are ahead of it have more original mint color. The EAC grade is MS-63, Ave Plus.
The two coins that are head of it are both EAC grade MS-65. One is called "a Gem" and the other is called "Choice." >>
Bill, i don't know much about EAC grading (other then they are extremely tough!) but how much does the brown color of the coin limit the grade in the EAC system?
<< <i>Color is an issue, but the two better coins are Red & Brown pieces with virtually no uneven color areas and, beleive it or not, even better eye appeal. The #1 coin from the photos is a stunner. >>
I believe it, and probably raw knowing the EAC nuts!
I was just wondering if the MS69 coin could have been better from a technical standpoint on hits, strike, etc. but lost a large number of points for the color. While the others lost little to no points for color but a few for strike/hits/etc.
As for the issue of slabbing, most EAC collectors don’t like plastic holders because they think that they are moisture traps. They also like to examine the edges of these coins which a vine and bar design on that area. As for grading I’ll take an EAC grade any day over a slab grade. Let’s put it this way. The annual EAC auction is the one place where you could bid and be assured of the grade, even if you can’t see the coin. The problem is the prices in EAC sales are quite strong. Be prepared to forget the catalog price listings and then some.
<< <i>Coin #1 is better than the coin that started this thread in every way. It has fewer marks and the mint color is remarkable. Coin #2 has more mint color than coin #3 and similar number of the marks.
As for the issue of slabbing, most EAC collectors don’t like plastic holders because they think that they are moisture traps. They also like to examine the edges of these coins which a vine and bar design on that area. As for grading I’ll take an EAC grade any day over a slab grade. Let’s put it this way. The annual EAC auction is the one place where you could bid and be assured of the grade, even if you can’t see the coin. The problem is the prices in EAC sales are quite strong. Be prepared to forget the catalog price listings and then some. >>
Bill I know about the EAC grade over the TPGs grade, i don't think i've ever seen a coin graded higher by EAC, or even at the same level for the same grade. You're post made me go check out the Noyes 2006 book, it looks nice but it's hard to justify spending $200 on just two years worth of coins i don't actively collect, hmmm maybe though. Looks like pretty pictures! lol
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>One of the most powerful comments on grading (IMHO) came from that EAC icon, Doug Bird. I was visiting him at his table (at some show a number of year back) and spotted a drop-dead gorgeous mid-grade Chain Cent. As I was enjoying its company up close, I quietly asked him how he graded it. He smiled and replied, "I grade it $30,000. How do you grade it?"
Lane >>
I'm hoping you said "SOLD"!
EAC is one of the things i've always admired and wanted to get into but never quite have. Outside of the large cents from the 1700s, copper just has never really appealed too much to me. I LOVE the large cents from the 1700s though.
According to the PCGS Certification Database, the requested certification number is defined as the following:
COIN INFORMATION
Cert Verification #: 2368135
PCGS Coin #: 1341
Date, mintmark: 1793 Chain
Denomination: 1C
Variety: AMERICA
Minor Variety:
Mint Error:
Pedigree:
Country: The United States of America
Grade: MS63BN
Mintage: 36,103
PCGS Price GuideSM Value: $280,000
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the most powerful comments on grading (IMHO) came from that EAC icon, Doug Bird. I was visiting him at his table (at some show a number of year back) and spotted a drop-dead gorgeous mid-grade Chain Cent. As I was enjoying its company up close, I quietly asked him how he graded it. He smiled and replied, "I grade it $30,000. How do you grade it?"
Lane >>
I'm hoping you said "SOLD"!
EAC is one of the things i've always admired and wanted to get into but never quite have. Outside of the large cents from the 1700s, copper just has never really appealed too much to me. I LOVE the large cents from the 1700s though. >>
I did, but Doug backed out of the deal when he saw me try to pay with modern cents...3 million of them!
Seriously, it was long enough ago that $30K for the coin was a good price, but not a steal. And even if it was, it's not like I had the extra funds. IIRC, it was a VF-20 by ANA standards and either an F-15 or VF-20 by EAC standards. Regardless, it was a "coin of opportunity" and I think it went fast.
My interest in the coin was that I teaching a grading class at the show and I wanted the students to see what a nice, original early copper looked like. Of course, Doug has LOTS of original early coppers.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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i < 3 the archives.
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I have had the pleasure as well.
It is odd to think that the simple act of holding a round disc of metal in your hand could cause such intense feelings of awe to stir, but it does. It certainly does.
As I posted above, I've held this coin in my hand. Who cares about the number, it simply is the best.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Another great resurrection.....Thanks for bringing this one back as well....Cheers, RickO
Wow wow wow!!