Increase in consumer spending (sharp increase in retail sales data) is fooling the market into believing that economic recovery is a reality. This puts dollar insurance on the back burner.
Consumers are spending because it will cost more next week. They are also spending more because they are borrowing more.
Economic recovery?
We've been down this road before, and no, it is not different this time. Get gold or get silver.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@taxmad said:
Aside from the banality of your argument? You chose to ignore all the events that would have occurred during the 200+ years you would have owned the land - not the least of which is people wondering how a 200+ year old person is still kicking around on his 10 to 80 acres selling logs, grains, proteins, rocks and oil/gas...
Yet its ok for derryb to post about a 200 year hold on a gold coin? Id like to see the 200 year old dude walking into the coin shop.
Why do you not use your failed logic on your troll master? Hypocrisy runs thick on this forum.
Yet its ok for derryb to post about a 200 year hold on a gold coin? Id like to see the 200 year old dude walking into the coin shop.
Why do you not use your failed logic on your troll master? Hypocrisy runs thick on this forum.
Derryb made no such argument - he simply posted a chart about the cost in USD per ounce of gold. Right on cue you built a strawman in another misguided attempt to dunk on him.
For as long as you've trolled this forum, you should know your intellectual leap isn't even close to getting that frame of yours to the rim...
Anyone else pulling for $1200-1300 gold? I have some pieces to add to the Pre-33 collection and that would help a lot. Melt is under $1700 so we are well on the way from the recent top. The only issue appears to be premiums and dealers saying they need to get what they paid out of the coin.
Yet its ok for derryb to post about a 200 year hold on a gold coin? Id like to see the 200 year old dude walking into the coin shop.
Why do you not use your failed logic on your troll master? Hypocrisy runs thick on this forum.
Derryb made no such argument - he simply posted a chart about the cost in USD per ounce of gold. Right on cue you built a strawman in another misguided attempt to dunk on him.
For as long as you've trolled this forum, you should know your intellectual leap isn't even close to getting that frame of yours to the rim...
He didnt? You are funny and deserving of a giant LOL.
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
Im surprised a man of your great intellect continues to write such boring and uninspiring comment.
@pcgscacgold said:
The only issue appears to be premiums and dealers saying they need to get what they paid out of the coin. Talk about high prices destroying demand.
And this is exactly why metals have a tendency to languish for years. There is no velocity. Even derryb talks of the needed velocity of money to increases prices. And y'all consider gold to be money, so wheres the velocity going to come from?
Housing prices went into a 10 years slump because banks didnt want sell for a loss. At least with housing and a rising population and constrained supply by the builders, demand for homes eventually exceeded supply and we've had another boom. Metals need similar "fundamentals".
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
There was no need to hold gold prior to 1971 as dollar insurance became a need only after the dollar was no longer pegged to gold. Between January 1971 and December 2019, gold had average annual returns of 10.61 percent.
Why do you buy gold? I buy it for protection. I buy other assets for performance.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
There was no need to hold gold prior to 1971 as dollar insurance became a need only after the dollar was no longer pegged to gold. Between January 1971 and December 2019, gold had average annual returns of 10.61 percent.
Why do you buy gold? I buy it for protection. I buy other assets for performance.
Then why did you post a chart of gold price from 1800?
You state you buy gold for protection yet you state performance numbers. ???
I believe you will find that gold has performed about in line with other asset classes during your define timeline on a price basis but has underperformed on a total return basis because it does not throw off an income stream.
Im not basing gold...i actually like it. But lets not let fact get in the way of healthy debate.
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
There was no need to hold gold prior to 1971 as dollar insurance became a need only after the dollar was no longer pegged to gold. Between January 1971 and December 2019, gold had average annual returns of 10.61 percent.
Why do you buy gold? I buy it for protection. I buy other assets for performance.
Then why did you post a chart of gold price from 1800?
to show the dramatic impact of central bank monetary influence since that fateful 1971 date. The chart reinforces my claim that there was no need to hold gold prior to 1971.
The chart in question:
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
There was no need to hold gold prior to 1971 as dollar insurance became a need only after the dollar was no longer pegged to gold. Between January 1971 and December 2019, gold had average annual returns of 10.61 percent.
Why do you buy gold? I buy it for protection. I buy other assets for performance.
Then why did you post a chart of gold price from 1800?
to show the dramatic impact of central bank monetary influence since that fateful 1971 date. The chart reinforces my claim that there was no need to hold gold prior to 1971.
The chart in question:
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
Do other asset classes have similar charts? What is the performance of those assets? Is better performance not better protection?
Yes, derryb, there are lots of questions one should ask.
We all get your points and objectives but without context and relativity, those points can be either under or overstated. Lets keep looking at things holistically.
When comparing gold to dollars, everything prior to 1971 is irrelevant to comparing performance of each. Only after gold was decoupled from dollars does it's dollar value have any real meaning.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@taxmad said:
Aside from the banality of your argument? You chose to ignore all the events that would have occurred during the 200+ years you would have owned the land - not the least of which is people wondering how a 200+ year old person is still kicking around on his 10 to 80 acres selling logs, grains, proteins, rocks and oil/gas...
Yet its ok for derryb to post about a 200 year hold on a gold coin? Id like to see the 200 year old dude walking into the coin shop.
Why do you not use your failed logic on your troll master? Hypocrisy runs thick on this forum.
Been in a coin shop lately? It is mostly a bunch of 200 year old dudes.
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
It was illegal for American citizens to have gold bullion during the years 1933-1974. Exceptions were made for most jewelry items and each person could retain a limited number of "collectible" coins if they were minted prior to 1934.
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
It was illegal for American citizens to have gold bullion during the years 1933-1974. Exceptions were made for most jewelry items and each person could retain a limited number of "collectible" coins if they were minted prior to 1934.
Didn't you know that already ?
Yes. In violation of our own constitution, by where only silver and gold were the legal means for "money", as debt settlement.
We increased debt and we continue to increase it. Detaching from gold and our bylaws.
It is our money and pays our debts. So who is welching on debt ? Nobody. It's fiscal responsibility raising the debt ceiling.
Money managers are playing tricks.
Our stimulus checks should have been ounces of gold we could buy stuff with.
Tell an American it is illegal to violate the constitution.
@streeter said:
Just think, 100 years ago these were $20 each. Hey, nothing to be concerned about. Just move along. Dollar is fine. No worries. No inflation.
At least it's not gutter. You will do just fine. Sleep well. RGDS!!!
Blitz,
I live in the gutter. Buy it for a buck, sell it for $1.12 the next day. Buyer already lined up. I don't keep much around. Best to push it across the table and let other people play with it.
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
It was illegal for American citizens to have gold bullion during the years 1933-1974. Exceptions were made for most jewelry items and each person could retain a limited number of "collectible" coins if they were minted prior to 1934.
Didn't you know that already ?
Yes. In violation of our own constitution, by where only silver and gold were the legal means for "money", as debt settlement.
We increased debt and we continue to increase it. Detaching from gold and our bylaws.
It is our money and pays our debts. So who is welching on debt ? Nobody. It's fiscal responsibility raising the debt ceiling.
Money managers are playing tricks.
Our stimulus checks should have been ounces of gold we could buy stuff with.
Tell an American it is illegal to violate the constitution.
Article 1, section 10 is about the powers denied to the states. It doesn't have anything to do with personal/private debts. Considering they were stamping out copper coins when the Mint opened a few years after the Constitution was ratified, I don't think they meant to restrict it to just gold and silver.
Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 5 has the relevant part about Congress's authorizations regarding money: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
It was illegal for American citizens to have gold bullion during the years 1933-1974. Exceptions were made for most jewelry items and each person could retain a limited number of "collectible" coins if they were minted prior to 1934.
Didn't you know that already ?
Yes. In violation of our own constitution, by where only silver and gold were the legal means for "money", as debt settlement.
We increased debt and we continue to increase it. Detaching from gold and our bylaws.
It is our money and pays our debts. So who is welching on debt ? Nobody. It's fiscal responsibility raising the debt ceiling.
Money managers are playing tricks.
Our stimulus checks should have been ounces of gold we could buy stuff with.
Tell an American it is illegal to violate the constitution.
Article 1, section 10 is about the powers denied to the states. It doesn't have anything to do with personal/private debts. Considering they were stamping out copper coins when the Mint opened a few years after the Constitution was ratified, I don't think they meant to restrict it to just gold and silver.
Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 5 has the relevant part about Congress's authorizations regarding money: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
So coin gold and silver, as money. and let us commence in commerce fairly, without a premium attached. After all it is OUR money.
The takedown continues another day. There must be some significance when Powell was re-nominated at the Fed and gov.com shows no sign of letting up on money creation. There must be some significance, but I haven't figured out what it might be yet.
Prolly has nothing to do with market manipulation. Sarc/off.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
The takedown continues another day. There must be some significance when Powell was re-nominated at the Fed and gov.com shows no sign of letting up on money creation. There must be some significance, but I haven't figured out what it might be yet.
Prolly has nothing to do with market manipulation. Sarc/off.
Derryb posted the reason in another thread. Think interest rates.
Powell remains for one reason; he's Joe's scapegoat down the road.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@derryb said:
Powell remains for one reason; he's Joe's scapegoat down the road.
Bingo.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Guy who started this thread is Jeff Zarit I believe... he sold me a nice Ionian Islands coin a decade ago that NGC graded MS64 and that's still in my collection. Hope he loaded up on gold under $1000/ozt.
I've been paying $150 over spot for gold coins in MintID holders lately. Premium for gold bar is so high might as well spend an extra $50-$60 for a real coin. The MintID holders are the same size as Valcambi bars so they fit in my box too, which is nice for long-term storage. PCGS slabs just take up too much room -- I miss the little ANACS ones.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I'm waiting till after the next rate hike announcement at the end of July. Fed meeting is planned for 7/26-7/27, so I'll be waiting till that next drop. I still think there is more downside after that, but may start buying on the way back down.
@tincup said:
Anyone making big purchases? That falling knife looks pretty sharp....
picked up three gold eagles MS70 @ $1952 ea. and five 10 oz. RCM bars for $238 ea. all from bullion exchanges.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@tincup said:
Anyone making big purchases? That falling knife looks pretty sharp....
picked up three gold eagles MS70 @ $1952 ea. and five 10 oz. RCM bars for $238 ea. all from bullion exchanges.
Today that’s more than $200 over spot. Don’t think that label is worth it.
I have never lost money on an MS70 gold eagle (or buffalo) and I have bought and sold many of them over the years.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@tincup said:
Anyone making big purchases? That falling knife looks pretty sharp....
picked up three gold eagles MS70 @ $1952 ea. and five 10 oz. RCM bars for $238 ea. all from bullion exchanges.
Today that’s more than $200 over spot. Don’t think that label is worth it.
I have never lost money on an MS70 gold eagle (or buffalo) and I have bought and sold many of them over the years.
You would today.
only on the ones I bought yesterday. I have gold eagles that were bought all along the price chart since 2005.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If you have them since 2005 how do you determine which to sell you never lost money on ?
buy low, sell high. ones bought in 2005 and later were expensive at the time. Now. . . just a drop in the bucket. There's no quick money in gold. It's all longer term money.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Comments
Increase in consumer spending (sharp increase in retail sales data) is fooling the market into believing that economic recovery is a reality. This puts dollar insurance on the back burner.
Consumers are spending because it will cost more next week. They are also spending more because they are borrowing more.
Economic recovery?
We've been down this road before, and no, it is not different this time. Get gold or get silver.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Yet its ok for derryb to post about a 200 year hold on a gold coin? Id like to see the 200 year old dude walking into the coin shop.
Why do you not use your failed logic on your troll master? Hypocrisy runs thick on this forum.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Derryb made no such argument - he simply posted a chart about the cost in USD per ounce of gold. Right on cue you built a strawman in another misguided attempt to dunk on him.
For as long as you've trolled this forum, you should know your intellectual leap isn't even close to getting that frame of yours to the rim...
Anyone else pulling for $1200-1300 gold? I have some pieces to add to the Pre-33 collection and that would help a lot. Melt is under $1700 so we are well on the way from the recent top. The only issue appears to be premiums and dealers saying they need to get what they paid out of the coin.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
He didnt? You are funny and deserving of a giant LOL.
BTW....has anyone ever computed the return of $20 over 200 years if it just earned the average of 4% per year interest during that time? Try it sometime. One wouldnt have even had to buy land to realize more than the performance of an ounce of gold.
Im surprised a man of your great intellect continues to write such boring and uninspiring comment.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
And this is exactly why metals have a tendency to languish for years. There is no velocity. Even derryb talks of the needed velocity of money to increases prices. And y'all consider gold to be money, so wheres the velocity going to come from?
Housing prices went into a 10 years slump because banks didnt want sell for a loss. At least with housing and a rising population and constrained supply by the builders, demand for homes eventually exceeded supply and we've had another boom. Metals need similar "fundamentals".
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
There was no need to hold gold prior to 1971 as dollar insurance became a need only after the dollar was no longer pegged to gold. Between January 1971 and December 2019, gold had average annual returns of 10.61 percent.
Why do you buy gold? I buy it for protection. I buy other assets for performance.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Then why did you post a chart of gold price from 1800?
You state you buy gold for protection yet you state performance numbers. ???
I believe you will find that gold has performed about in line with other asset classes during your define timeline on a price basis but has underperformed on a total return basis because it does not throw off an income stream.
Im not basing gold...i actually like it. But lets not let fact get in the way of healthy debate.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
to show the dramatic impact of central bank monetary influence since that fateful 1971 date. The chart reinforces my claim that there was no need to hold gold prior to 1971.
The chart in question:
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Didnt individuals hold gold prior to 1971? If so, then why did they?
Do other asset classes have similar charts? What is the performance of those assets? Is better performance not better protection?
Yes, derryb, there are lots of questions one should ask.
We all get your points and objectives but without context and relativity, those points can be either under or overstated. Lets keep looking at things holistically.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
When comparing gold to dollars, everything prior to 1971 is irrelevant to comparing performance of each. Only after gold was decoupled from dollars does it's dollar value have any real meaning.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Been in a coin shop lately? It is mostly a bunch of 200 year old dudes.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
It was illegal for American citizens to have gold bullion during the years 1933-1974. Exceptions were made for most jewelry items and each person could retain a limited number of "collectible" coins if they were minted prior to 1934.
Didn't you know that already ?
Yes. In violation of our own constitution, by where only silver and gold were the legal means for "money", as debt settlement.
We increased debt and we continue to increase it. Detaching from gold and our bylaws.
It is our money and pays our debts. So who is welching on debt ? Nobody. It's fiscal responsibility raising the debt ceiling.
Money managers are playing tricks.
Our stimulus checks should have been ounces of gold we could buy stuff with.
Tell an American it is illegal to violate the constitution.
Looking good today.
Just think, 100 years ago these were $20 each. Hey, nothing to be concerned about. Just move along. Dollar is fine. No worries. No inflation.
At least it's not gutter. You will do just fine. Sleep well. RGDS!!!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Blitz,
I live in the gutter. Buy it for a buck, sell it for $1.12 the next day. Buyer already lined up. I don't keep much around. Best to push it across the table and let other people play with it.
Article 1, section 10 is about the powers denied to the states. It doesn't have anything to do with personal/private debts. Considering they were stamping out copper coins when the Mint opened a few years after the Constitution was ratified, I don't think they meant to restrict it to just gold and silver.
Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 5 has the relevant part about Congress's authorizations regarding money: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
I don't keep much around. Best to push it across the table and let other people play with it.
Works good - until the Music's Over.
I knew it would happen.
So coin gold and silver, as money. and let us commence in commerce fairly, without a premium attached. After all it is OUR money.
Sure would like to see gold act as the inflation hedge it is supposed to be.
Strange world. Everything is skyrocketing in price, except for gold, that just dumps.
The takedown continues another day. There must be some significance when Powell was re-nominated at the Fed and gov.com shows no sign of letting up on money creation. There must be some significance, but I haven't figured out what it might be yet.
Prolly has nothing to do with market manipulation. Sarc/off.
I knew it would happen.
Derryb posted the reason in another thread. Think interest rates.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Powell remains for one reason; he's Joe's scapegoat down the road.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Bingo.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Anytime it falls off a cliff, another miner has to dig down deeper for it. Interesting paradox.
Guy who started this thread is Jeff Zarit I believe... he sold me a nice Ionian Islands coin a decade ago that NGC graded MS64 and that's still in my collection. Hope he loaded up on gold under $1000/ozt.
I've been paying $150 over spot for gold coins in MintID holders lately. Premium for gold bar is so high might as well spend an extra $50-$60 for a real coin. The MintID holders are the same size as Valcambi bars so they fit in my box too, which is nice for long-term storage. PCGS slabs just take up too much room -- I miss the little ANACS ones.
Here we go again.
Wouldn't you know, the day after the 4th of July.
as the euro drops further, so will gold.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Anyone making big purchases? That falling knife looks pretty sharp....
I'm waiting till after the next rate hike announcement at the end of July. Fed meeting is planned for 7/26-7/27, so I'll be waiting till that next drop. I still think there is more downside after that, but may start buying on the way back down.
picked up three gold eagles MS70 @ $1952 ea. and five 10 oz. RCM bars for $238 ea. all from bullion exchanges.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Today that’s more than $200 over spot. Don’t think that label is worth it.
I have never lost money on an MS70 gold eagle (or buffalo) and I have bought and sold many of them over the years.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
You would today.
only on the ones I bought yesterday. I have gold eagles that were bought all along the price chart since 2005.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If you have them since 2005 how do you determine which to sell you never lost money on ?
I've been adding to my UUP position along with GLD, and I like it.
Interest rates are moving up and the dollar is getting stronger.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
So if Gold has fallen off the cliff,can any one tell where the cliff is, because I need to take a road trip tomorrow.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
buy low, sell high. ones bought in 2005 and later were expensive at the time. Now. . . just a drop in the bucket. There's no quick money in gold. It's all longer term money.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey