<< <i>We will revisit this thread once L.T is done- he will end up with much better numbers than Faulk... >>
I think that may be true. But I would not be surprised if L.T. ended up ringless, e.g., no Super Bowl victories.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Normally I would not hold that against a guy and in his case I most likely still wont however Im still suprised that he sat out against the Patriots in this past years playoffs, granted Turner was a very nice option to fall back on but I cant help second guessing him not playing.
<< <i>We will revisit this thread once L.T is done- he will end up with much better numbers than Faulk... >>
Quite possible..While LT is a great threat catching the ball out of the backfield, Faulk often lined up at split end and in the slot and ran WR routes...He was also a like a coach on the field...I've heard Kurt Warner say that Faulk would give him adjustments and things to look for in the defense while in the huddle that helped Warner go from being an Arena League guy to an NFL MVP...
LT is the closest current player to Faulk's style though, and I agree that he could end up ranking higher on my all-time rankings..But I don't think he'll ever be or has ever been more versatile than Faulk...LT has Faulk in the speed category though, and is a little better inside the tackles, although Faulk could cut, stop and start with the best of them...Definitely similar backs. Will be interesting to see what LT has left in the tank as he heads down the backend of his career..
Faulk still has a little over 5,000 yards more from scrimmage in his career..LT will need another 4 strong seasons without injury to get there...He's going into year 8, so again, will be interesting to watch...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Teams are measured by championships and Barry's teams never got one. >>
I don't think that is Sanders fault- I would imagine if Emmitt were on those Lions teams he wouldn't have dragged them to any greater heights than Barry was able to. I'd go as far as to say if Emmitt and Barry switched teams, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Barry would be over 20k and Emmitt would be another Curtis Martin, great but not in this discussion. Anyone agree?
<< <i> Teams are measured by championships and Barry's teams never got one. >>
I don't think that is Sanders fault- I would imagine if Emmitt were on those Lions teams he wouldn't have dragged them to any greater heights than Barry was able to. I'd go as far as to say if Emmitt and Barry switched teams, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Barry would be over 20k and Emmitt would be another Curtis Martin, great but not in this discussion. Anyone agree?
John >>
Disagree.
The Cowboys would have been forced to run a similar offense as the Lions..Putting a FB in front of Barry and calling a running play to a specific hole would be counter-productive to his running style. Barry's game was to improvise and that massive Cowboys O-Line was a drive blocking unit..They weren't going to sustain blocks any longer than the Lions O-line did while Barry looked for a 50 yard seam...The Cowboys ran a north/south offense. Their running plays were predicated on read and react, hit the hole and follow your blocking scheme..I think Emmitt would have done fine with the Lions but I doubt he could have ever made any of the Lions QBs as good as Troy Aikman...I think Lomas Brown would be a HOF lock and Michael Irvin probably wouldn't be in the HOF..I also don't think the Cowboys would have won 3 Super Bowls with Barry. I just don't think he would have fit into Jimmy Johnson's system and for Johnson to change it all for Barry would have hurt his overall success..
Both were talented enough to likely be considered HOFers no matter who they played for..But I certainly think the Cowboys would not have been as good with a Sanders style RB vs. an Emmitt style guy.
Jimmy Johnson passed on drafting Barry Sanders in the 1989 draft...He didn't fit his style of play, simple as that...It would be akin to putting Marshall Faulk on the Bill Cowher Steeler teams..He wouldn't have fit in, and the best coaches look for players that fit into what they want to do...With Barry, they had to find an offense that could exploit his strengths, which they did by spreading the offense and giving Barry more room to invent his unbelievable runs...This is why Barry and Wayne Fontes got along initially..Fontes was willing to revolve the offense around Barry..When Ross came in and wanted to put his own spin on things, Barry wasn't happy with it. He didn't like being told where to run..He needed to improvise to be the player he was.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How in the heck can this post be on #157 ??? It could have been done in just one.
Do we really need to argue this???
Oh and between Emmitt and Barry.....hands down Emmitt. #1 intangible =heart...no one played with more heart than Emmitt. #1 tangible=toughness...few tougher...few backs had longevity, number of carries, and production of Emmitt.. took the beating he did, and kept coming back....he was like the energizer bunny! Barry was like a toy minus the batteries..err heart.. Emmitt had the heart of a champion! (Disclaimer...I am very biased..Cowboy fan forever..so take it for what its worth)
<< <i>Do you actually think any bum could do what Emmitt did simply because there was talent around him? >>
No one has said being perhaps fourth best ever is a bum. But it is still not best ever
It is interesting that anyone who thinks Sanders was the best ever must have a Detroit bias, yet it almost has to go along with seeing the Lions as an absolute joke. Does thinking the Cowboys had the greatest line in NFL history require a Dallas bias? What percentage of Smith's yards came while the team was up by at least 20 points in the fourth quarter? How about for Sanders? That would offer far more insight than percentage of yards of the teams offense (especially about how often the two teams were able to secure big leads. . .)
<< <i>Again, your blowing things a little out of proportion...He is the all-time lost yardage leader because he spent more time in the backfield looking for holes than any other RB I've ever watched...And it wasn't always because there was no hole, it's because he was looking to hit a home run everytime..If yo uwatched him as you say you did, you must have seen this as well...For every person you say UNDERRATES Sanders, there is someone else who OVERRATES him... >>
Man, you must be the king of generalization. Everytime? C'mon, pick up a video Jason. The guy could improvise, but it wasn't something he did on the majority of their plays. I'll concede he may have done it more than any back you've ever watched simply because I don't know how much football you've watched. And where did I say Barry was underrated as you claim I've said? I've said there's misconceptions of him, but don't recall saying he was underrated.
<< <i>I have no misconceptions about Barry. I rank him at the 3rd greatest RB of all-time..Behind Jim Brown, behind Walter Payton, ahead of everyone else. He isn't #1 on my list because of the particular holes in his game that I have pointed out during this thread, but he is #3 because of the amazing open field runner that he was. There are pros and cons to ALL of these RBs. It's simply a matter of balancing the pros VS. the cons and seeing how the stack up based on each of our opinions. When I add it all up, IMO Barry wasn't as good as Brown or Payton...If you think otherwise, you are entitled to that. I haven't tried to change your mind, simply pointing out WHY I think he is 3rd and not 1st.. >>
You have no misconceptions? LOL, please don't make me point them out again. Again, I haven't disagreed with anyones rankings. I'd take any of these backs in a heartbeat if I had to start a new organization. I don't care if people don't put Barry on their top 50 list. It means nothing to me.
The fact that many others (media, players, coaches) feel the same as I do simply validates my argument. Same goes for you, there are plenty of Detroit fans out there who feel the same.
Jason >>
LOL, Detroit fans? Apparently enough to put Barry at #2 on this list and not Payton as you claim Man, never knew the Lions had so many fans. Shocking
<< <i>Not to suggest anything other than presenting the numbers:
Back A: 991 rushes, 4956 yards, 5.0 yard per rush, 39 rushing TD's Back B: 722 rushes, 4239 yards, 5.9 yards per rush, 43 rushing TD's
Back A is Gale Sayers. Regarded as one of the Top 10 running backs of all-time and a member of the Hall of Fame.
Back B? Never once mentioned in anyone's top 50 as far as running backs of all-time. Back B is Hall of Fame QUARTERBACK Steve Young! >>
Young, the best running quarterback with the most accurate arm.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>We will revisit this thread once L.T is done- he will end up with much better numbers than Faulk... >>
I think that may be true. But I would not be surprised if L.T. ended up ringless, e.g., no Super Bowl victories.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Normally I would not hold that against a guy and in his case I most likely still wont however Im still suprised that he sat out against the Patriots in this past years playoffs, granted Turner was a very nice option to fall back on but I cant help second guessing him not playing.
<< <i>We will revisit this thread once L.T is done- he will end up with much better numbers than Faulk... >>
Quite possible..While LT is a great threat catching the ball out of the backfield, Faulk often lined up at split end and in the slot and ran WR routes...He was also a like a coach on the field...I've heard Kurt Warner say that Faulk would give him adjustments and things to look for in the defense while in the huddle that helped Warner go from being an Arena League guy to an NFL MVP...
LT is the closest current player to Faulk's style though, and I agree that he could end up ranking higher on my all-time rankings..But I don't think he'll ever be or has ever been more versatile than Faulk...LT has Faulk in the speed category though, and is a little better inside the tackles, although Faulk could cut, stop and start with the best of them...Definitely similar backs. Will be interesting to see what LT has left in the tank as he heads down the backend of his career..
Faulk still has a little over 5,000 yards more from scrimmage in his career..LT will need another 4 strong seasons without injury to get there...He's going into year 8, so again, will be interesting to watch...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Teams are measured by championships and Barry's teams never got one. >>
I don't think that is Sanders fault- I would imagine if Emmitt were on those Lions teams he wouldn't have dragged them to any greater heights than Barry was able to. I'd go as far as to say if Emmitt and Barry switched teams, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Barry would be over 20k and Emmitt would be another Curtis Martin, great but not in this discussion. Anyone agree?
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>
<< <i>
Teams are measured by championships and Barry's teams never got one. >>
I don't think that is Sanders fault- I would imagine if Emmitt were on those Lions teams he wouldn't have dragged them to any greater heights than Barry was able to. I'd go as far as to say if Emmitt and Barry switched teams, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Barry would be over 20k and Emmitt would be another Curtis Martin, great but not in this discussion. Anyone agree?
John >>
Disagree.
The Cowboys would have been forced to run a similar offense as the Lions..Putting a FB in front of Barry and calling a running play to a specific hole would be counter-productive to his running style. Barry's game was to improvise and that massive Cowboys O-Line was a drive blocking unit..They weren't going to sustain blocks any longer than the Lions O-line did while Barry looked for a 50 yard seam...The Cowboys ran a north/south offense. Their running plays were predicated on read and react, hit the hole and follow your blocking scheme..I think Emmitt would have done fine with the Lions but I doubt he could have ever made any of the Lions QBs as good as Troy Aikman...I think Lomas Brown would be a HOF lock and Michael Irvin probably wouldn't be in the HOF..I also don't think the Cowboys would have won 3 Super Bowls with Barry. I just don't think he would have fit into Jimmy Johnson's system and for Johnson to change it all for Barry would have hurt his overall success..
Both were talented enough to likely be considered HOFers no matter who they played for..But I certainly think the Cowboys would not have been as good with a Sanders style RB vs. an Emmitt style guy.
Jimmy Johnson passed on drafting Barry Sanders in the 1989 draft...He didn't fit his style of play, simple as that...It would be akin to putting Marshall Faulk on the Bill Cowher Steeler teams..He wouldn't have fit in, and the best coaches look for players that fit into what they want to do...With Barry, they had to find an offense that could exploit his strengths, which they did by spreading the offense and giving Barry more room to invent his unbelievable runs...This is why Barry and Wayne Fontes got along initially..Fontes was willing to revolve the offense around Barry..When Ross came in and wanted to put his own spin on things, Barry wasn't happy with it. He didn't like being told where to run..He needed to improvise to be the player he was.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Do we really need to argue this???
Oh and between Emmitt and Barry.....hands down Emmitt. #1 intangible =heart...no one played with more heart than Emmitt. #1 tangible=toughness...few tougher...few backs had longevity, number of carries, and production of Emmitt.. took the beating he did, and kept coming back....he was like the energizer bunny! Barry was like a toy minus the batteries..err heart.. Emmitt had the heart of a champion! (Disclaimer...I am very biased..Cowboy fan forever..so take it for what its worth)
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
<< <i>Do you actually think any bum could do what Emmitt did simply because there was talent around him? >>
No one has said being perhaps fourth best ever is a bum. But it is still not best ever
It is interesting that anyone who thinks Sanders was the best ever must have a Detroit bias, yet it almost has to go along with seeing the Lions as an absolute joke. Does thinking the Cowboys had the greatest line in NFL history require a Dallas bias? What percentage of Smith's yards came while the team was up by at least 20 points in the fourth quarter? How about for Sanders? That would offer far more insight than percentage of yards of the teams offense (especially about how often the two teams were able to secure big leads. . .)
Back A: 991 rushes, 4956 yards, 5.0 yard per rush, 39 rushing TD's
Back B: 722 rushes, 4239 yards, 5.9 yards per rush, 43 rushing TD's
Back A is Gale Sayers. Regarded as one of the Top 10 running backs of all-time and a member of the Hall of Fame.
Back B? Never once mentioned in anyone's top 50 as far as running backs of all-time. Back B is Hall of Fame QUARTERBACK Steve Young!
<< <i>Again, your blowing things a little out of proportion...He is the all-time lost yardage leader because he spent more time in the backfield looking for holes than any other RB I've ever watched...And it wasn't always because there was no hole, it's because he was looking to hit a home run everytime..If yo uwatched him as you say you did, you must have seen this as well...For every person you say UNDERRATES Sanders, there is someone else who OVERRATES him... >>
Man, you must be the king of generalization. Everytime? C'mon, pick up a video Jason. The guy could improvise, but it wasn't something he did on the majority of their plays. I'll concede he may have done it more than any back you've ever watched simply because I don't know how much football you've watched. And where did I say Barry was underrated as you claim I've said? I've said there's misconceptions of him, but don't recall saying he was underrated.
<< <i>I have no misconceptions about Barry. I rank him at the 3rd greatest RB of all-time..Behind Jim Brown, behind Walter Payton, ahead of everyone else. He isn't #1 on my list because of the particular holes in his game that I have pointed out during this thread, but he is #3 because of the amazing open field runner that he was. There are pros and cons to ALL of these RBs. It's simply a matter of balancing the pros VS. the cons and seeing how the stack up based on each of our opinions. When I add it all up, IMO Barry wasn't as good as Brown or Payton...If you think otherwise, you are entitled to that. I haven't tried to change your mind, simply pointing out WHY I think he is 3rd and not 1st.. >>
You have no misconceptions? LOL, please don't make me point them out again. Again, I haven't disagreed with anyones rankings. I'd take any of these backs in a heartbeat if I had to start a new organization. I don't care if people don't put Barry on their top 50 list. It means nothing to me.
The fact that many others (media, players, coaches) feel the same as I do simply validates my argument. Same goes for you, there are plenty of Detroit fans out there who feel the same.
Jason >>
LOL, Detroit fans? Apparently enough to put Barry at #2 on this list and not Payton as you claim
<< <i>Not to suggest anything other than presenting the numbers:
Back A: 991 rushes, 4956 yards, 5.0 yard per rush, 39 rushing TD's
Back B: 722 rushes, 4239 yards, 5.9 yards per rush, 43 rushing TD's
Back A is Gale Sayers. Regarded as one of the Top 10 running backs of all-time and a member of the Hall of Fame.
Back B? Never once mentioned in anyone's top 50 as far as running backs of all-time. Back B is Hall of Fame QUARTERBACK Steve Young! >>
Young, the best running quarterback with the most accurate arm.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.