<< <i> Smith gets my vote because I believe he was the most complete back. Not just good in all phases of the position, but great in all phases. >>
Smith would rank 2nd if i were listing most complete backs..I couldn't put him above Walter Payton in that regard, as Walter was great in every phase as well, and did it on mostly bad teams with a weak supporting cast..Even in the Super Bowl year at the end of his career, how many other HOFers did the Bears have on the offensive side of the ball during Walter's years? ZERO..None even close..Payton was the best combination of style and substance of any RB I've ever watched...
Emmitt's right there with him though, easily the 2 most complete backs in history...Nice write up BTW...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for...
As are the misguided individuals who base the opinions not on facts but upon the opinions other misguided individuals that have no clue.... >>
I agree with you there...
Thank goodness I've watched enough football of enough players through NFL history to be able to trust my own eyes and stick with my own rankings regardless of what anyone else (ESPN, Sporting News, etc, etc.) tries to tell me.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for... >>
The unfortunate thing about using books or articles is that you are seeing the guy through someone else's eyes rather than your own. As Scott (otwcards) has stated a couple of times in this thread "Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know..."
For MANY NFL fans, NFL history began in 1980 simply because they never took the time or have had the opportunity to spend time paying attention to the guys that came before them...There is a lot of footage out there, and I wish the NFL and NFL Films would resolve whatever issues they are having and use the NFL Network offseason to show more of the old timers and expound on the rich history of the pre-1980's NFL.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for... >>
The unfortunate thing about using books or articles is that you are seeing the guy through someone else's eyes rather than your own. As Scott (otwcards) has stated a couple of times in this thread "Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know..."
For MANY NFL fans, NFL history began in 1980 simply because they never took the time or have had the opportunity to spend time paying attention to the guys that came before them...There is a lot of footage out there, and I wish the NFL and NFL Films would resolve whatever issues they are having and use the NFL Network offseason to show more of the old timers and expound on the rich history of the pre-1980's NFL.
Jason >>
I hear ya but this all we have in many instances. It is really impossible to objectively compare the all-time greats across so many years but it is just for fun and is an interesting exercise. THis is why I would still recommend the Jenkinson book about Ruth to you. Admittedly, I have always been fascinated by the mythical stature of Ruth but this book really validated much of that mythicism in my opinion. It is well-researched and highly entertaining. Check it out if you get a chance. "The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home RUns."
Barry is still #1 on my list, Marshall Faulk gets a bonus push or two because of his receiving and Marcus Allen knocks off Eric Dickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson at the bottom rung. I will give L.T. he will likely pass Dickerson before it is done. Adrian Peterson is the real deal and will be in the top three when all is done. That kid is amazing.
1- Barry Sanders 2- Jim Brown 3- Emmitt Smith 4- Walter Payton 5 Earl Campbell 6- Gale Sayers 7- Marshall Faulk 8- O. J. Simpson 9- Marcus Allen 10- LaDanian Tomlinson
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
One in particular, Bo Jackson running over Brian Bosworth, then outrunning Kenny Easley down the sideline. That was monday night football in Seattle, hyped as The Boz v.s. "Bo Knows"
As a die hard Seahawk fan, even I could appreciate what I was witnessing that night watching Bo, it was killer
As far as THE best running back ever, Jim Brown.
Thats just not my (or Scotts ) opinion, that was the opinion of a poll taken by the HOF committee.
<< <i>Barry is still #1 on my list, Marshall Faulk gets a bonus push or two because of his receiving and Marcus Allen knocks off Eric Dickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson at the bottom rung. I will give L.T. he will likely pass Dickerson before it is done. Adrian Peterson is the real deal and will be in the top three when all is done. That kid is amazing.
1- Barry Sanders 2- Jim Brown 3- Emmitt Smith 4- Walter Payton 5 Earl Campbell 6- Gale Sayers 7- Marshall Faulk 8- O. J. Simpson 9- Marcus Allen 10- LaDanian Tomlinson >>
Nice list..I've always found Marcus Allen very hard to rank...I was always amazed that he could do what he could do with his body type and style of running..He came in to the league with such a bang his first 3-4 seasons only to fall off the map..Much of which had to do with Bo Jackson's arrival and Al Davis' craziness. He was always very good at everything he did, but never GREAT at anything other than getting in the end zone..He was absolutely money inside the 5..He also fumbled pretty often...I wonder how he would have been remembered if it were not for his rebirth in KC? I don't know that he even makes the HOF without that...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Stevek, with an observation that "Jim Brown caught everything thrown his way", sounds like you must have watched him play during his career (as opposed to watching highlight films).
For people that criticize Barry for lost yardage & goal line failures, most probably never watched enough of his games to understand the circumstances involved. Many try to say he had some good lineman here, but there weren't many. Lomas was good and I think Glover was underrated. People always mention Hartings, but he basically sucked when he was here. Most were happy to see him go, assuming he was never going to "get it". The rest of this line was continually changing. Utley was paralyzed. Andolsek was killed by a truck that drove into his driveway. Many other guys came and went. He also never really had a good blocking tight end, and they rarely ran a fullback in front of him. Also their coaching was terribly predictable. Lions fans will tell you every third and fifteen was always a friggin draw and every team knew it. And sure, they did have another weapon. Moore was very good, but that was it. They had something like 7 different QB's that started in the time Barry was here. They ran 3-4 different offenses, including the run & shoot which limited the number of blockers for him. They continually faced 7 and even 8 men in the box. Teams would even use their goal line D against Detroit on third and short... at midfield! Before they started using a fullback in short yardage, if Barry got stopped once near the goal line they usually pulled him and started using Derrick Moore.
Simply put, when you played Detroit you only needed to stop Barry. With other teams like Dallas, you had to stop Emmitt, Aikman, Irvin, Novacek, etc... With the 49'ers, it was Montana, Rice, Taylor, Craig, Young, etc... The Giants had Simms, Bavaro, Morris... Detroit was basically one dimensional. Moore was so succesful because he was always in single coverage because every spare person was usually in the box or headed that way after the snap to stop Barry.
The year before Barry came, Detroit was rated 27 or 28 in nearly every major rushing statistic. Their leading rusher averaged 3.0 yards per attempt and the entire team only averaged 3.2. They were 28 in the league in scoring. They had 2 rushing TD's from their back for the entire season. Their team was 4-12.
When Barry arrived they only moved up to 20th in rushing attempts, but up to 8th in yardage and first in rushing TD's (14 from Barry) and yards per attempt (4.9 - Barry was 5.3). They also rose to 19th in scoring offense, yet their passing was in the bottom third in nearly every statistic. They had 4 different QB's play during the season. Their team finished 7-9. Barry is a first-team pro bowler.
The next year, he had 13 rushing TD's and again they were first in yards per attempt (5.3). Their offense was ranked 5th in scoring, yet their passing was only ranked in the middle of the pack. Team finishes 6-10. Barry, first-team pro bowler.
Third year, 16 rushing TD's and 5th in YPA. Scoring offense was 9th, yet passing offense was weak again with everything being ranked between 14th - 24th. Barry was up to 41 receptions. Team finished 12-4 and goes to the playoffs for the first time since Sims was here. They beat Dallas, then lose to the Skins in the conference championship. Barry, first-team pro bowler.
The rest of his career with Detroit shows a lot of the same. Their team basically makes the playoffs every other year, and then they have an early exit. Their team usually managed to contend for a playoff in most of those years. Their QB play was typically lousy and they usually had a huge lack of talent from the skill position, yet Barry kept putting up huge numbers. His TD numbers dropped in some years, but as I mentioned some of that had to do with offensive & coaching changes.
In his final season, they changed coaches (Bobby Ross). Barrys attempts and yards reflected the change as both dropped, but still managed to rank third in yards per attempt and end up with 1491 yards. The team sucked, but he still was performing VERY well.
Then he retires. The team dropped to 24th in yards per attempt. Their best back is averaging only 3.8 per carry. Their starting back gets 2 rushing TD's and their whole backfield basically becomes receivers because they cannot run the ball. They basically suck from then on. Some will mention James Stewart rushing for 1100 the next season, but he did so with only a 3.5 average and a lot of carries. Stewart ends up taking a ton of abuse, things which Barry basically managed to elude. I think Barry missed only 5 games one year from a broken rib if I recall correctly. Stewart plays less and less until he's gone. Their team sank right back into the festering craphole it is now.
As I've mentioned with Brown, I've seen footage and read a lot about the guy. Footage is sometimes funny though as you mainly see the good plays and not the bad ones. If you only saw a "best of Barry" video, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Brown was a stud. But how much of that was his team. Because Bobby Mitchell was a stud too statistically, he just didn't get as many opportunities as Brown. But during the 4 years they played together, he shined too. The first year they played together, they had almost identical receiving numbers. Brown had more carries and yardage, but Mitchell had a higher YPC by .4. The next year, Mitchell carries nearly half the times, but averaged 1.1 more YPC. He also had more receptions and a higher YPR than Brown. The next year Brown had him by 1.2 YPC, but Mitchell had 26 more receptions and at nearly 4 more YPR. The next year Mitchell carried the ball 1/3 as much, but averaged almost a yard more per carry. Brown had 12 more receptions, but Mitchell still averaged 1.5 more YPR. Then after Mitchell was gone, Green usually put up similar average numbers to Brown as well in both running and receiving while he was there. Brown averaged 5.3 YPC his final year. The next year, his 2 replacements both made the pro bowl (Kelly started) and Kelly averaged 5.5 YPC and Green averaged 5.2. A very similar situation the next year. Both to the pro bowl and Kelly started. 5.1 and 4.9 YPG respectively. Kelly continued that pace for another couple years before slowing down.
Further, it's not like Brown played on a bad team like Barry did. His team had just won their second straight championship 2 years before he arrived. The year before those, they were 11-1. Plus this team had a great coach and lots of talent. Plum and Ryan were the two main QB's during Browns career. Both were very good. I've already mentioned the other backs. And this team had some great receivers too in Renfro, Warfield, Collins, Kreitling & Brewer. They had great O lineman too including Hickerson and Groza (HOF'ers). Brown had a stud team around him. Barry NEVER did. Brown had guys to take the pressure off. Barry NEVER did. Brown had other guys to help carry the ball. Barry NEVER did. Brown went to a winning team with a HOF coach. Barry DIDN'T.
Now I'm not saying that this proves anything. I find it hard to argue about who's better than who unless they played in identical situations, which is impossible. I will say that Brown was given a lot more opportunities where he went. A LOT MORE. Barry made the best of what he was given. He made a crap team competitive for about 10 years, and when he left they immediately sucked again.
I was wondering how long until the Barry lovers would come out...lol
You can quote all the stats and situations you want...The argument you make can also be viewed as players like Jim Brown made the players around them better..While guys like Barry never met a run play he followed through on..Hard to have team success or strong blocking when the runner never goes where he is supposed to..I don't remember him ever doing much to help anyone but himself..He never cared about his team or his teammates..Many of them have been interviewed and stated as much...Not to mention he threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus...Had Emmitt Smith played for the Lions, maybe Herman Moore and Lomas Brown would be in the HOF rather than Irvin and Aikman...
Also, Walter Payton played on MUCH WORSE teams than Barry ever did, and with MUCH WORSE talent around him on offense..Look back at how many Pro Bowl offensive players the Bears had during Payton's career..The difference is that if it was 3rd and 3, you could depend on Walter to get those 3 yards on the ground, or make the block on a blitzing LB or get open for the QB to have a checkdown...Barry wasn't even in the game on MANY 3rd downs because you couldn't depend on him to do those things..If I am building a team, I value that consistency more than i do a few highlight film runs every game...The reason Barry is the all-time yardage lost leader is NOT because defenses were stacking against him..Defenses stack against ALL of the GREAT RBs..What caused Barry to lose all those yards was BARRY dancing in the backfield looking for way to break a 50 yard run...How many times were defensive players in his backfield BEFORE Barry had the handoff and made his first move???Not often...Emmitt Smith rarely hesitated and would hit the first hole available and he would get you 4-5 yards on a consistent basis..That kept the Cowboys offense on the field and successful.
In the end, I have to trust my eyes...And Barry had too many negatives in his game to put him above Jim Brown or Walter Payton on my list.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm gonna settle this once and for all. Two words for ya;
Merril Hoge
Not only was he selected in the 1987 draft by the Pittsburgh Steelers in the tenth round with the 261st pick he went on to become an a star tv personality.
His mind numbing stats speak for themselves 825 attempts 3139 yards 21 td's. The best part of this was he did it in 8 seasons! That's an average of 2.63 td's per year!
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember.
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Craig James wasn't too bad.
In the 1985 he rushed for 1,220 plus yards, He was also the last white player to rush for more than 1,000 yards in a season (Wikipedia)
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Craig James wasn't too bad.
In the 1985 he rushed for 1,220 plus yards, He was also the last white player to rush for more than 1,000 yards in a season (Wikipedia) >>
Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much, not because he was some God.
In 190 games Payton garnered 21,264 yards from scrimmage In 226 games Smith garnered..21,579 yards from scrimmage.
Payton was by far the superior blocker.
Emmitt had the luxury of the teammates as mentioned above.
Payton could even pass the ball!
In summary, Payton was a better runner, a better receiver, a better blocker, and a better passer....and he did it with an inferior supporting cast.
Quite frankly, there really isn't much of an argument.
<< <i>Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much >>
I don't think it is a "bash" to Emmitt to say Walter Payton was better...Emmitt himself would tell you that...
Emmitt vs. Barry can be debated all day...Emmitt vs. Walter or Emmitt vs. Jim Brown, there is really no debate. And anyone trying to does so based on either lack of awareness or an agenda towards a particular player (i.e. Cowboys fans voting for Emmitt)...
Brown and Payton were IMO, easily the top 2 RBs of all-time..The other rankings can be argued and such, but really these 2 shouldn't be. Much like Rice and Hutson, its a clear separation, the top 2, then everybody else.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think it is a "bash" to Emmitt to say Walter Payton was better...Emmitt himself would tell you that >>
and I agree with that Jason. My foolishness reply to pinchy was in regards to this statement
<< <i><< Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much >>
...which was why I qouted it.
Yes Emmitt was surrounded by a excellent supporting cast but pinchy is making it sound like he had no ability at all and all his td's were the result of "giant holes" when in fact they were not. This tells me one thing, he is simply repeating what he has heard through the years and did not experience first-hand. All the Emmitt detractors always harp on the same things, it's qetting quite old if you ask me.
Yes Emmitt was surrounded by a excellent supporting cast but pinchy is making it sound like he had no ability at all and all his td's were the result of "giant holes" when in fact they were not. This tells me one thing, he is simply repeating what he has heard through the years and did not experience first-hand. All the Emmitt detractors always harp on the same things, it's qetting quite old if you ask me. >>
Very true..I've been on the Emmitt side of the Barry vs. Emmitt argument many times...If I were drafting a team, I would want Emmitt over Barry. Simply because you could depend on Emmitt to run the play that was called. He was a perfect fit into that system and that team..People always like to say "Boy, what would Barry Sanders have done with the Cowboys supporting cast" and my response is, he wouldn't have made them look as good as Emmitt did. Smith did everything he was asked, and he made the players around him look better and play harder. Its the alternate argument to the one always used for Sanders..POOR Barry, he never played with good supporting cast..Which is hogwash..Not they weren't great, but he had solid players on the offensive side of the ball. BETTER supporting cast than Walter Payton that's for sure...The Lions did EVERYTHING in their power to help Barry get off as many highlight film runs as he could..Problem is, when he wasn't making them, most of his other plays resulted in negative results and lots of 3rd and longs...Go back and look at the score sheets and the play-by-plays at how many 3rd and 7+ the Lions had to overcome..I guarantee the defenses weren't stacking for the run on those, mainly because Barry wasn't even on the field for many of them.
No Emmitt did not have the sick moves that Barry had..No one short of Gale Sayers has...But he made better decisions and helped his team more than Barry did..As someone mentioned earlier, if you want to rate "BEST OPEN FIELD RUNNER" of all-time, it would be close between Barry Sanders and Gale Sayers..But there is more to being a great RB than being great in the open field..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I watched more than my fair shair of Cowboy games. I would routinely go to the local bar with a dish and watch the Cowboys. I saw as much as most Cowboy fans did.
The reality still remains...Emmitt had a superior supporting cast, and it is probably one of the best supporting casts in history. Yes he did have many big holes to run through, and I am not comparing that just to Sanders...I am comparing that to the other elite backs in football.
Emmitt was also part of that supporting cast, and he in turn supported Aikman & Co. That is why they were a great team, because they had guys like that all over the field. But that is also why their single players are often overrated, or think so highly of themselves(like Aikman does). Their coach was also instrumental in putting it all together.
It worked out great for Emmitt that his skill set fit perfectly into that team, in that situation, with all those great players...but that still doesn't make him better than other RB's who didnt' have that luxury of finding a perfect match...and whom also performed just as well or better in spite of the disadvange they had.
<< <i>I was wondering how long until the Barry lovers would come out...lol
You can quote all the stats and situations you want...The argument you make can also be viewed as players like Jim Brown made the players around them better..While guys like Barry never met a run play he followed through on..Hard to have team success or strong blocking when the runner never goes where he is supposed to..I don't remember him ever doing much to help anyone but himself..He never cared about his team or his teammates..Many of them have been interviewed and stated as much...Not to mention he threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus...Had Emmitt Smith played for the Lions, maybe Herman Moore and Lomas Brown would be in the HOF rather than Irvin and Aikman...
Also, Walter Payton played on MUCH WORSE teams than Barry ever did, and with MUCH WORSE talent around him on offense..Look back at how many Pro Bowl offensive players the Bears had during Payton's career..The difference is that if it was 3rd and 3, you could depend on Walter to get those 3 yards on the ground, or make the block on a blitzing LB or get open for the QB to have a checkdown...Barry wasn't even in the game on MANY 3rd downs because you couldn't depend on him to do those things..If I am building a team, I value that consistency more than i do a few highlight film runs every game...The reason Barry is the all-time yardage lost leader is NOT because defenses were stacking against him..Defenses stack against ALL of the GREAT RBs..What caused Barry to lose all those yards was BARRY dancing in the backfield looking for way to break a 50 yard run...How many times were defensive players in his backfield BEFORE Barry had the handoff and made his first move???Not often...Emmitt Smith rarely hesitated and would hit the first hole available and he would get you 4-5 yards on a consistent basis..That kept the Cowboys offense on the field and successful.
In the end, I have to trust my eyes...And Barry had too many negatives in his game to put him above Jim Brown or Walter Payton on my list.
Jason >>
Barry Lovers? Nah, I don't love Barry. Don't even know him. I am a Detroit fan and did watch every game he played here, but that just means I may be more knowledgable about his professional career than some. Why does someone have to be a "Barry lover" if they argue he may have been better than another player? Are you a Jim Brown lover? C'mon, I love the game. I've watched and read a lot about tons of players. Barry just happens to be the guy I probably know a lot more about than anybody else simply because I watched every game. I still have probably 60 games transferred to DVD of him playing here. I've seen all of them multiple times as we used to run them all day long in the card shop I used to work at.
You could try to argue that Brown made the players around him better, but they were already a team that won two of the last three championships before Brown arrived so that arguement would be hard to substantiate. You can also grossly generalize that Barry never followed through on a run play when he obviously did so way more often than not. You can spew all of the negatives you've heard on ESPN or read in a fortune cookie about this guy, but apparently you never bothered to many games. He usually went where the play was designed to. He sometimes winged it, but it wasn't as if he did it by a staggering percentage. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. This team was clearly MUCH better with him. I think only an idiot would argue otherwise. Further, his teammates loved the guy. Some griped when he held out or about how he chose to leave the team, but I doubt anybody was loved more when he played here. All of these supposed "interviews" you claim to have seen must have been repeats of the same guy. He threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus??? Where do you pull your facts from? Your rectum? He only had two while he was here. Fontes and him were like best buddies. He never said a bad thing about Wayne that I ever heard. In fact, he was one of the loudest to complain when Wayne was fired. He did have his problems with Ross, but Ross created most of the issues. He publicly called out Barry when Barry held out for a new contract. Before Ross arrived, Barry was also allowed to miss mini camp (like many other star players). Ross called him out publicly on that, questioning his devotion to the team. In fact, it was Ross who continually threw Barry "under the bus". He is the reason Barry retired. Everybody here knows that. Most who knew anything about the situation knew that. That's why after Ross was fired, Moeller, Mornhinweg and Mooch all called Barry when they were hired asking if he'd consider returning.
And you can argue why you think Barry lost all of that yardage, but dancing in the backfield wasn't the only reason. Guys like Emmitt and Brown had backfield mates to lead block. Barry almost never had a fullback to lead in and open the whole, or to pick up the first LB that was filling it. Even in many short yardage opportunities, they stayed with the single back. I would bet Emmitt rarely ran in a single back in 3rd and short, especially on the goalline. Further, many of Barrys losses (where you claim he was looking to break a 50 yard run) in the backfield happened in situations where it was 3rd and 8, not 3rd and 2. And again, your facts come from a Cracker Jack box. Barry was in for the large majority of the third downs when he was here. They really didn't start pulling him on third down until Ross arrived and that was at the end of his career.
Lets break down this YARDAGE LOST BS. All of the people who bring this up have probably never had it put into perspective for them, or they would realize it's basically a non-issue. He lost 7 yards a game on average. When spanned acrossed his entire career, it averages into about 2 - 3.5 yard losses per game. Whoooopie!!! His average per carry acrossed his entire career is 5 yards, even with these losses. People make it sound like he was tripping over himself his entire career with "all of those losses". I think 2 short losses a game is acceptable collateral damage for a guy who averaged 5 yards a carry and could bust the big one at any time. Further, people just think he had one 80 yard run and then 15 runs of 1 yard. Sure, he had some games where he struggled before hitting a huge run. Especially during the run and shoot days when their team was all about big plays, but couldn't sustain a drive. But if you actually watched enough games, you'd realize this guy mainly had average length runs like any other back. It's just games like the Green Bay playoff game got a ton of publicity because they got dominated and Barry didn't do a thing (nor did anyone else on their team). Further, look at some of the films or review some games. Barry OFTEN turned a likely 5 yard loss into only a one yard loss. He made plenty of blitzers miss him 5-8 yards deep and somehow managed to get back near line of scrimmage. His losses weren't always because he was dancing as some generalize.
Further, Lomas probably deserves the Hall but will likely never get there based on the fact they never won a championship. Moore would be a shoe-in if he played longer. He led the league in receptions for 2 years. He has the second highest season total ever. He just started to suffer from injuries and back pain. If he played another 5 years at the level he was, he would have made it easily. But instead, he played healthy for only 8 seasons before injuries got the best of him. And his rookie year, he basically sat the bench. Herman put up 670 receptions, basically in 8 seasons. That guy was a stud, just not a healthy one for very long. I would argue he was at least as good as Irvin, but his numbers don't match because he didn't play for as long.
So in the end, you can go ahead and trust your eyes, but take the blinders off first It's evident to me you didn't watch many Lions games. Do I think Barry was the best at everything? No. Great runner. Good speed. Fair receiver who got better during his career. Fairly poor blocker. Great teammate. He did some things better than others and some things worse. Would he have had more success playing for a better team. I have no doubt, but it's mere speculation in reality. But don't try to say this guy didn't try his best or care about the team. When he was playing in his last game, the guy was crying on the sidelines as the game was ending. Nobody really knew why at the time. Lots of whispers and guessing. I think it's obvious he was upset because he likely knew he was playing his last game. Detroit never did anything to bring in known talent to this team. They never picked up a quality free agent. Many of their draft picks were failures. They let their best players leave. They did nothing to show Barry they were committed to winning. This organization is still being run this way for the most part. He was smart to retire when he did.
Where did you get your facts in regard to Sanders average lose per carry, game, etc...?
Your argument/reasoning is more thought out and less bias than what is typically written from Emmitt fans...I would have to tip my cap to your ability to separate yourself a bit from your 'love'...I know you don't like that term, but it is easy to use.
You also bring up some interesting points in regard to Brown and his supporting cast. A lot of people make it seem as if it was Jim Brown and then 44 other guys in ugly uniforms. Others seemed to have glossed over that aspect that you seem to have spent some time on, and it may warrant a deeper look.
As I mentioned above, Emmitt had one of the best supporting casts in football. NO RUNNING BACK would win titles without that luxury, or NECESSITY! That is partly where these guys get the extra credit, yet it is an aspect that is in a great part out of their control individually.
One thing in regard with comparing the second running back oon the team though is that sometimes he gets the 'easy' carries on third and long, and rarely gets the pure short yardage carries that can bring down your average.
I would be more curious on a breakdown on Sanders' losses, etc...
<< <i>I don't think it is a "bash" to Emmitt to say Walter Payton was better...Emmitt himself would tell you that...
Emmitt vs. Barry can be debated all day...Emmitt vs. Walter or Emmitt vs. Jim Brown, there is really no debate. And anyone trying to does so based on either lack of awareness or an agenda towards a particular player (i.e. Cowboys fans voting for Emmitt)...
Brown and Payton were IMO, easily the top 2 RBs of all-time..The other rankings can be argued and such, but really these 2 shouldn't be. Much like Rice and Hutson, its a clear separation, the top 2, then everybody else.
Jason >>
And not that it means anything, but right after Emmitt broke Paytons record they showed and interview with him on either CBS or NBC before his next game. He apparently owns a card or memorabilia shop in Florida and they did the interview there. They were asking him about where he thought it put him in regards to the greatest of all-time. He laughed and said something to the effect of if Barry had a better team and played a couple more years, they wouldn't even be interviewing him on that day. He said if Barry played 5 more years (which Emmitt felt Barry was more than capable of doing), he would have easily shattered the record and eclipsed 20,000 yards. He went on to say Barry would have put the record where no player would ever be able to break it. He also said he felt Barry was the best ever. Again, better or best is up for debate.
Where did you get your facts in regard to Sanders average lose per carry, game, etc...?
Your argument/reasoning is more thought out and less bias than what is typically written from Emmitt fans...I would have to tip my cap to your ability to separate yourself a bit from your 'love'...I know you don't like that term, but it is easy to use.
You also bring up some interesting points in regard to Brown and his supporting cast. A lot of people make it seem as if it was Jim Brown and then 44 other guys in ugly uniforms. Others seemed to have glossed over that aspect that you seem to have spent some time on, and it may warrant a deeper look.
As I mentioned above, Emmitt had one of the best supporting casts in football. NO RUNNING BACK would win titles without that luxury, or NECESSITY! That is partly where these guys get the extra credit, yet it is an aspect that is in a great part out of their control individually.
One thing in regard with comparing the second running back oon the team though is that sometimes he gets the 'easy' carries on third and long, and rarely gets the pure short yardage carries that can bring down your average.
I would be more curious on a breakdown on Sanders' losses, etc...
-Skin >>
I saw a breakdown before of the number of losses he had, compiled with the yardage lost and the number of games he played in. I believe it was in an article in the Detroit Free Press. It said something like he had nearly 300 carries that resulted in a loss. He lost a total of 1,114 yards over his career. That was in a total of 150+ games. All the math was there. They also had a breakdown of carries for no yards, 1 yard, 2 yards and up to 10 and then everything over 10 yards. It was pretty balanced considering, which proved the "Sanders was a homerun or bust" thought was more of a myth.
I'm not what I would consider biased about Barry. I had what I would label "borderline inappropriate man-love" for this guy in college. I was thrilled when the Lions drafted him. But I didn't stop watching other games. I enjoyed watching all of the great backs around that time. Bo, Thurman, Emmitt, Bettis, etc... Lots of very good players. Again, I'm not saying Barry was the best or the worst. I'm not saying he was better than anybody else. I will argue some players had better situations where they had a higher likelihood of success. It's obvious to me that Jas hasn't really watched any of his games, or at least not many. He's bought into the same myth others have about Barry getting minus 5 yards, and then gaining 10 on the next. It's simply bogus. But hey, it's all good.
<< <i> I am a Detroit fan and did watch every game he played here, but that just means I may be more knowledgable about his professional career than some. >>
Nuff said...
Barry Sanders -- Overrated
Barry Sanders, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2004 (his first year of eligibility), scored one touchdown for every 35 touches in his 153 regular-season games, but just one touchdown in 112 postseason touches in six playoff games.
Indeed, Sanders' only career playoff touchdown was a 47-yard run against the Dallas Cowboys in a 1991 divisional-round playoff game in the Pontiac Silverdome. The Lions won that game 38-6. Sanders' touchdown came in the final minutes of the fourth quarter with Detroit already leading 31-6. The following week, the Lions went on the road to play the Washington Redskins at RFK Stadium. Sanders was not a factor. Detroit took a 41-10 beating.
Barry Sanders
US Presswire
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home. Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points.
Nobody is suggesting that a bust of Barry should not be in Canton. He's the third-leading rusher of all time with 15,269 yards. He holds the all-time NFL record for consecutive 1,000 seasons with 10, from 1989 to 1998. Sanders was the first player to rush for 1,500 yards in a season five times. He was selected to 10 Pro Bowls. In 1997, when he rushed for 2,053 yards, he was NFL co-MVP, an honor he should have not had to share with Brett Favre that season. In 1988, Sanders won the Heisman Trophy at Oklahoma State.
But this picture of perfection has a nasty blemish. Once Sanders got to the big stage, and got out of the Silverdome, he was a bust.
Take the wild-card playoff game at Lambeau Field in 1994. That season, Sanders averaged 5.7 yards per carry -- the second-highest total of his career. In the first round of the playoffs against the Green Bay Packers, on Lambeau Field's frozen tundra, Sanders set an NFL postseason record for rushing futility. He had 13 carries for minus-one yard. He had four catches that day -- for four yards. Which means he had 16 touches for a total of three yards -- 2.7 yards less than he averaged per rush in the regular season.
Now, the spirited defense of putting him in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot always includes the theory that Sanders was the only thing the Lions had going for them in The Barry Sanders Era. That's exactly what it is -- a theory, and a bad one at that.
Did we forget about wide receivers Herman Moore and Brett Perriman? The Lions stretched the field for Sanders -- especially in the Dome. This helped him be wildly successful -- in the regular season. And in the years when the Lions went to the playoffs, their defense was not awful. It was middle of the pack -- ranked 11th in 1991, 15th in 1993, 19th in 1994, 14th in 1995 and 10th in 1997.
There is another ugly scar on Sanders' career: His Greta Garbo act on the way out the door.
After rushing for 1,491 yards in 1998, Sanders abruptly and mysteriously retired. At the time, he was 1,457 yards shy of Walter Payton's all-time rushing record. His defenders say Sanders -- who played the game with dignity and class -- did not owe anybody anything. As long as he was at peace with the decision, that was enough. That's bunk.
Here was a man who benefited greatly from the support of his teammates, his organization and his fans -- and he just turned his back on them without a word of gratitude. He left his teammates and a franchise in the lurch, to the point that the Lions demanded he return $7.3 million of his signing bonus.
Years later, when it was time for him to become eligible for Canton, Sanders had to be coaxed into providing some kind of explanation for his untimely retirement.
It was too little, too late.
Postscript: Of the five leading rushers in NFL history, Sanders is the only one to never reach a Super Bowl. The others -- Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis -- all reached at least one Super Bowl. And all but Martin won at least one NFL championship ring.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Again, I'm not saying Barry was the best or the worst. I'm not saying he was better than anybody else. I will argue some players had better situations where they had a higher likelihood of success. It's obvious to me that Jas hasn't really watched any of his games, or at least not many. He's bought into the same myth others have about Barry getting minus 5 yards, and then gaining 10 on the next. It's simply bogus. But hey, it's all good. >>
Wow..This is a first..I've been accused of many things, but never accused of watching TOO LITTLE footage of anyone..lol
Being that NFL history has been my #1 hobby for the past 20 years, I can assure you, I've watched as much Barry as anyone short of his position coaches..In all honesty, I think it is those who tout his greatness that didn't watch ALL of Barry, but rather go by what they saw on the ESPN highlight shows...My collection of DVDs and vintage game footage is not Barry or Lion-centric however. I own quite a bit of footage of many teams, games and players but not all games and players...My scoresheets and play-by-play records are fairly extensive as well..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it!
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it! >>
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home. Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It is too bad Sayers career was effected by knee problems no doubt he would have been that much better- I have seen minimal footage of Sayers and a lot of Barry Sanders, leaving out the "who's better" debate I will say Sanders has had some breathtaking scampers in the open field however I remember in the early days of my fantasy football career a bunch of guys saying to the guy who drafted Sanders- "Nice you got about 1800 yards to go along with 3 TD's " Sanders would be out of gas after all those moves and get caught inside the 5 a bunch of times, so in the open field to the endzone maybe Sayers was better? I dont know because I did not see enough footage of Sayers to make that claim, maybe I shouldnt have claimed Sanders was either.
<< <i>It is too bad Sayers career was effected by knee problems no doubt he would have been that much better- I have seen minimal footage of Sayers and a lot of Barry Sanders, leaving out the "who's better" debate I will say Sanders has had some breathtaking scampers in the open field however I remember in the early days of my fantasy football career a bunch of guys saying to the guy who drafted Sanders- "Nice you got about 1800 yards to go along with 3 TD's " Sanders would be out of gas after all those moves and get caught inside the 5 a bunch of times, so in the open field to the endzone maybe Sayers was better? I dont know because I did not see enough footage of Sayers to make that claim, maybe I shouldnt have claimed Sanders was either. >>
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And he did it with a WORSE supporting cast than Barry had...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it! >>
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home. Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points. >>
Again, not true... Barry's stats from his 1997 campain (2000+ yards). He averaged 6.1 yards for the season, but averaged more than that in away games at Chicago (19/161/8.5 /grass), Tampa (24/215/9.0 /grass) & Washington (15/105/7.0 /grass). In his other away games on grass, he averaged 4.3 (25/107) at Buffalo, 4.6 (23/105) at Green Bay and 4.6 (30/137) at Miami... all games in which he ran for over 100 yards.
1989 - In his rookie year, he only played on grass twice... Green bay. 30 - 181 yards (6.1 avg). Giants 12 - 57 (4.8)
1990 - Second year. Tampa - 15/52/3.5 - Kansas City - 16/90/5.6 - Giants 11/69/6.3 - Chicago 17/61/3.6 - Green Bay - 19/133/7.0
1991 - Third year - San Fran - 7/26/3.7 - Chicago 18/63/3.5 - Green Bay 27/85/3.1 - Buffalo - 26/108/4.2
1992 - Chicago 19/109/5.7 - Washington 14/34/2.4 - Tampa 21/122/5.8 - Pittsburgh 21/94/4.5 - Green Bay 16/114/7.1 - San Fran 19/104/5.5
1993 - New England 32/148/4.6 - Tampa 22/130/5.9 - LA 26/91/3.5 - Green Bay 17/75/4.4
1994 - Tampa 20/166/8.3 - Giants 26/146/5.6 - Green Bay 15/74/3.1 - Chicago 11/42/3.8 - Miami 12/52/4.3
Supports? LOL. Again, looks like you bought into some BS about the guy struggling on grass. Looks pretty much like he was equally impressive in most games on grass (I think all of these stadiums are grass - lol) during the regular season. In fact, the ones he struggled in were usually against great D's or divisional teams, which could be said for most players. You can mention all of those poor playoff games, but a lot of those games they were being punished and gave up on running the ball to try to catch up.
So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed.
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
Barry averaged 4.2 YPC in the playoffs. Emmitt averaged 4.5. You also have an enormous problem with sample size, since Barry played in exactly 6 post-season games, if you want to use postseason results as an indicator of who was the superior back.
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
LOL, you keep spewing crap that I disprove or shed light on, and then you finally come up with the obvious. Well... my dad can beat up your dad
Emmitt came up big, but so did his teammates. None of Barrys teammates ever did crap in the playoffs, so I guess it became easier for opposing teams to stop one man. Yawn...
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
Barry averaged 4.2 YPC in the playoffs. Emmitt averaged 4.5. You also have an enormous problem with sample size, since Barry played in exactly 6 post-season games, if you want to use postseason results as an indicator of who was the superior back. >>
Yes, but Emmitt had a much bigger heart. Seriously, the measured and weighed it!!!
Comments
<< <i>
Smith gets my vote because I believe he was the most complete back. Not just good in all phases of the position, but great in all phases. >>
Smith would rank 2nd if i were listing most complete backs..I couldn't put him above Walter Payton in that regard, as Walter was great in every phase as well, and did it on mostly bad teams with a weak supporting cast..Even in the Super Bowl year at the end of his career, how many other HOFers did the Bears have on the offensive side of the ball during Walter's years? ZERO..None even close..Payton was the best combination of style and substance of any RB I've ever watched...
Emmitt's right there with him though, easily the 2 most complete backs in history...Nice write up BTW...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The Greatest runningbacks of all time
Man, I wish Bo would have focused on football!!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>...But homers are people too..
Jason >>
As are the misguided individuals who base the opinions not on facts but upon the opinions other misguided individuals that have no clue....
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for...
<< <i>
<< <i>...But homers are people too..
Jason >>
As are the misguided individuals who base the opinions not on facts but upon the opinions other misguided individuals that have no clue....
I agree with you there...
Thank goodness I've watched enough football of enough players through NFL history to be able to trust my own eyes and stick with my own rankings regardless of what anyone else (ESPN, Sporting News, etc, etc.) tries to tell me.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for... >>
The unfortunate thing about using books or articles is that you are seeing the guy through someone else's eyes rather than your own. As Scott (otwcards) has stated a couple of times in this thread "Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know..."
For MANY NFL fans, NFL history began in 1980 simply because they never took the time or have had the opportunity to spend time paying attention to the guys that came before them...There is a lot of footage out there, and I wish the NFL and NFL Films would resolve whatever issues they are having and use the NFL Network offseason to show more of the old timers and expound on the rich history of the pre-1980's NFL.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
>>
I think that you may need to read some more about Babe Ruth. He WAS that good. I have read much about him. Bill Jenkinson recently wrote a very compelling book that I would recommend to you. In this interesting book, many factors are meticulously detailed comparing the modern era to Ruth's...with some surprising results IMHO. In fact, it can be argued that Babe Ruth was actually better than we now give him credit for... >>
The unfortunate thing about using books or articles is that you are seeing the guy through someone else's eyes rather than your own. As Scott (otwcards) has stated a couple of times in this thread "Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know..."
For MANY NFL fans, NFL history began in 1980 simply because they never took the time or have had the opportunity to spend time paying attention to the guys that came before them...There is a lot of footage out there, and I wish the NFL and NFL Films would resolve whatever issues they are having and use the NFL Network offseason to show more of the old timers and expound on the rich history of the pre-1980's NFL.
Jason >>
I hear ya but this all we have in many instances. It is really impossible to objectively compare the all-time greats across so many years but it is just for fun and is an interesting exercise. THis is why I would still recommend the Jenkinson book about Ruth to you. Admittedly, I have always been fascinated by the mythical stature of Ruth but this book really validated much of that mythicism in my opinion. It is well-researched and highly entertaining. Check it out if you get a chance. "The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home RUns."
1- Barry Sanders
2- Jim Brown
3- Emmitt Smith
4- Walter Payton
5 Earl Campbell
6- Gale Sayers
7- Marshall Faulk
8- O. J. Simpson
9- Marcus Allen
10- LaDanian Tomlinson
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Great video on this subject (turn the sound off though...lol):
The Greatest runningbacks of all time
Man, I wish Bo would have focused on football!!
Jason >>
Killer video jason!!
One in particular, Bo Jackson running over Brian Bosworth, then outrunning Kenny Easley down the sideline. That was monday night football in Seattle, hyped as The Boz v.s. "Bo Knows"
As a die hard Seahawk fan, even I could appreciate what I was witnessing that night watching Bo, it was killer
As far as THE best running back ever, Jim Brown.
Thats just not my (or Scotts ) opinion, that was the opinion of a poll taken by the HOF committee.
My
Opinon
Only
Joe
<< <i>Barry is still #1 on my list, Marshall Faulk gets a bonus push or two because of his receiving and Marcus Allen knocks off Eric Dickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson at the bottom rung. I will give L.T. he will likely pass Dickerson before it is done. Adrian Peterson is the real deal and will be in the top three when all is done. That kid is amazing.
1- Barry Sanders
2- Jim Brown
3- Emmitt Smith
4- Walter Payton
5 Earl Campbell
6- Gale Sayers
7- Marshall Faulk
8- O. J. Simpson
9- Marcus Allen
10- LaDanian Tomlinson >>
Nice list..I've always found Marcus Allen very hard to rank...I was always amazed that he could do what he could do with his body type and style of running..He came in to the league with such a bang his first 3-4 seasons only to fall off the map..Much of which had to do with Bo Jackson's arrival and Al Davis' craziness. He was always very good at everything he did, but never GREAT at anything other than getting in the end zone..He was absolutely money inside the 5..He also fumbled pretty often...I wonder how he would have been remembered if it were not for his rebirth in KC? I don't know that he even makes the HOF without that...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Simply put, when you played Detroit you only needed to stop Barry. With other teams like Dallas, you had to stop Emmitt, Aikman, Irvin, Novacek, etc... With the 49'ers, it was Montana, Rice, Taylor, Craig, Young, etc... The Giants had Simms, Bavaro, Morris... Detroit was basically one dimensional. Moore was so succesful because he was always in single coverage because every spare person was usually in the box or headed that way after the snap to stop Barry.
The year before Barry came, Detroit was rated 27 or 28 in nearly every major rushing statistic. Their leading rusher averaged 3.0 yards per attempt and the entire team only averaged 3.2. They were 28 in the league in scoring. They had 2 rushing TD's from their back for the entire season. Their team was 4-12.
When Barry arrived they only moved up to 20th in rushing attempts, but up to 8th in yardage and first in rushing TD's (14 from Barry) and yards per attempt (4.9 - Barry was 5.3). They also rose to 19th in scoring offense, yet their passing was in the bottom third in nearly every statistic. They had 4 different QB's play during the season. Their team finished 7-9. Barry is a first-team pro bowler.
The next year, he had 13 rushing TD's and again they were first in yards per attempt (5.3). Their offense was ranked 5th in scoring, yet their passing was only ranked in the middle of the pack. Team finishes 6-10. Barry, first-team pro bowler.
Third year, 16 rushing TD's and 5th in YPA. Scoring offense was 9th, yet passing offense was weak again with everything being ranked between 14th - 24th. Barry was up to 41 receptions. Team finished 12-4 and goes to the playoffs for the first time since Sims was here. They beat Dallas, then lose to the Skins in the conference championship. Barry, first-team pro bowler.
The rest of his career with Detroit shows a lot of the same. Their team basically makes the playoffs every other year, and then they have an early exit. Their team usually managed to contend for a playoff in most of those years. Their QB play was typically lousy and they usually had a huge lack of talent from the skill position, yet Barry kept putting up huge numbers. His TD numbers dropped in some years, but as I mentioned some of that had to do with offensive & coaching changes.
In his final season, they changed coaches (Bobby Ross). Barrys attempts and yards reflected the change as both dropped, but still managed to rank third in yards per attempt and end up with 1491 yards. The team sucked, but he still was performing VERY well.
Then he retires. The team dropped to 24th in yards per attempt. Their best back is averaging only 3.8 per carry. Their starting back gets 2 rushing TD's and their whole backfield basically becomes receivers because they cannot run the ball. They basically suck from then on. Some will mention James Stewart rushing for 1100 the next season, but he did so with only a 3.5 average and a lot of carries. Stewart ends up taking a ton of abuse, things which Barry basically managed to elude. I think Barry missed only 5 games one year from a broken rib if I recall correctly. Stewart plays less and less until he's gone. Their team sank right back into the festering craphole it is now.
As I've mentioned with Brown, I've seen footage and read a lot about the guy. Footage is sometimes funny though as you mainly see the good plays and not the bad ones. If you only saw a "best of Barry" video, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Brown was a stud. But how much of that was his team. Because Bobby Mitchell was a stud too statistically, he just didn't get as many opportunities as Brown. But during the 4 years they played together, he shined too. The first year they played together, they had almost identical receiving numbers. Brown had more carries and yardage, but Mitchell had a higher YPC by .4. The next year, Mitchell carries nearly half the times, but averaged 1.1 more YPC. He also had more receptions and a higher YPR than Brown. The next year Brown had him by 1.2 YPC, but Mitchell had 26 more receptions and at nearly 4 more YPR. The next year Mitchell carried the ball 1/3 as much, but averaged almost a yard more per carry. Brown had 12 more receptions, but Mitchell still averaged 1.5 more YPR. Then after Mitchell was gone, Green usually put up similar average numbers to Brown as well in both running and receiving while he was there. Brown averaged 5.3 YPC his final year. The next year, his 2 replacements both made the pro bowl (Kelly started) and Kelly averaged 5.5 YPC and Green averaged 5.2. A very similar situation the next year. Both to the pro bowl and Kelly started. 5.1 and 4.9 YPG respectively. Kelly continued that pace for another couple years before slowing down.
Further, it's not like Brown played on a bad team like Barry did. His team had just won their second straight championship 2 years before he arrived. The year before those, they were 11-1. Plus this team had a great coach and lots of talent. Plum and Ryan were the two main QB's during Browns career. Both were very good. I've already mentioned the other backs. And this team had some great receivers too in Renfro, Warfield, Collins, Kreitling & Brewer. They had great O lineman too including Hickerson and Groza (HOF'ers). Brown had a stud team around him. Barry NEVER did. Brown had guys to take the pressure off. Barry NEVER did. Brown had other guys to help carry the ball. Barry NEVER did. Brown went to a winning team with a HOF coach. Barry DIDN'T.
Now I'm not saying that this proves anything. I find it hard to argue about who's better than who unless they played in identical situations, which is impossible. I will say that Brown was given a lot more opportunities where he went. A LOT MORE. Barry made the best of what he was given. He made a crap team competitive for about 10 years, and when he left they immediately sucked again.
You can quote all the stats and situations you want...The argument you make can also be viewed as players like Jim Brown made the players around them better..While guys like Barry never met a run play he followed through on..Hard to have team success or strong blocking when the runner never goes where he is supposed to..I don't remember him ever doing much to help anyone but himself..He never cared about his team or his teammates..Many of them have been interviewed and stated as much...Not to mention he threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus...Had Emmitt Smith played for the Lions, maybe Herman Moore and Lomas Brown would be in the HOF rather than Irvin and Aikman...
Also, Walter Payton played on MUCH WORSE teams than Barry ever did, and with MUCH WORSE talent around him on offense..Look back at how many Pro Bowl offensive players the Bears had during Payton's career..The difference is that if it was 3rd and 3, you could depend on Walter to get those 3 yards on the ground, or make the block on a blitzing LB or get open for the QB to have a checkdown...Barry wasn't even in the game on MANY 3rd downs because you couldn't depend on him to do those things..If I am building a team, I value that consistency more than i do a few highlight film runs every game...The reason Barry is the all-time yardage lost leader is NOT because defenses were stacking against him..Defenses stack against ALL of the GREAT RBs..What caused Barry to lose all those yards was BARRY dancing in the backfield looking for way to break a 50 yard run...How many times were defensive players in his backfield BEFORE Barry had the handoff and made his first move???Not often...Emmitt Smith rarely hesitated and would hit the first hole available and he would get you 4-5 yards on a consistent basis..That kept the Cowboys offense on the field and successful.
In the end, I have to trust my eyes...And Barry had too many negatives in his game to put him above Jim Brown or Walter Payton on my list.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm gonna settle this once and for all. Two words for ya;
Merril Hoge
Not only was he selected in the 1987 draft by the Pittsburgh Steelers in the tenth round with the 261st pick he went on to become an a star tv personality.
His mind numbing stats speak for themselves 825 attempts 3139 yards 21 td's. The best part of this was he did it in 8 seasons! That's an average of 2.63 td's per year!
Emmitt, Jim, Barry....Ha! I laugh in your face!
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
I'll accept that.
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember.
45% complete.
<< <i>How about a variation on the OP?
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Jim Taylor!
<< <i>How about a variation on the OP?
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Craig James wasn't too bad.
In the 1985 he rushed for 1,220 plus yards, He was also the last white player to rush for more than 1,000 yards in a season (Wikipedia)
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>How about a variation on the OP?
Quick, name the greatest white RB's off all times. At least for pro football players who played after 1960, I bet the list is very short.
Larry Csonka, Rocky Blier, the other Steeler who played with Blier [his name escapes me at the moment] and Bobby Anderson are the only white RB's who played post 1960 that I remember. >>
Craig James wasn't too bad.
In the 1985 he rushed for 1,220 plus yards, He was also the last white player to rush for more than 1,000 yards in a season (Wikipedia) >>
How did I forget him!
BTW-Hi Matt!
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much, not because he was some God.
In 190 games Payton garnered 21,264 yards from scrimmage
In 226 games Smith garnered..21,579 yards from scrimmage.
Payton was by far the superior blocker.
Emmitt had the luxury of the teammates as mentioned above.
Payton could even pass the ball!
In summary, Payton was a better runner, a better receiver, a better blocker, and a better passer....and he did it with an inferior supporting cast.
Quite frankly, there really isn't much of an argument.
<< <i>Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much >>
Typical Emmitt bashing foolishness
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Emmitt was certainly helped by these aspects, and he still wasn't as good as Payton. Payton was better than him in every aspect of the game.
Emmitt vs. Barry can be debated all day...Emmitt vs. Walter or Emmitt vs. Jim Brown, there is really no debate. And anyone trying to does so based on either lack of awareness or an agenda towards a particular player (i.e. Cowboys fans voting for Emmitt)...
Brown and Payton were IMO, easily the top 2 RBs of all-time..The other rankings can be argued and such, but really these 2 shouldn't be. Much like Rice and Hutson, its a clear separation, the top 2, then everybody else.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think it is a "bash" to Emmitt to say Walter Payton was better...Emmitt himself would tell you that >>
and I agree with that Jason. My foolishness reply to pinchy was in regards to this statement
<< <i><< Smith by far had the greater supporting cast...and yes we all saw those games too...and what we saw were giant holes opened up for Emmitt to waltz in for a TD. With Novacek and Irving occupying the minds of the defense, Emmitt had it far easier to get past the line of scrimmage for positive yards...that is why he didn't lose yards much >>
...which was why I qouted it.
Yes Emmitt was surrounded by a excellent supporting cast but pinchy is making it sound like he had no ability at all and all his td's were the result of "giant holes" when in fact they were not. This tells me one thing, he is simply repeating what he has heard through the years and did not experience first-hand. All the Emmitt detractors always harp on the same things, it's qetting quite old if you ask me.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
Yes Emmitt was surrounded by a excellent supporting cast but pinchy is making it sound like he had no ability at all and all his td's were the result of "giant holes" when in fact they were not. This tells me one thing, he is simply repeating what he has heard through the years and did not experience first-hand. All the Emmitt detractors always harp on the same things, it's qetting quite old if you ask me. >>
Very true..I've been on the Emmitt side of the Barry vs. Emmitt argument many times...If I were drafting a team, I would want Emmitt over Barry. Simply because you could depend on Emmitt to run the play that was called. He was a perfect fit into that system and that team..People always like to say "Boy, what would Barry Sanders have done with the Cowboys supporting cast" and my response is, he wouldn't have made them look as good as Emmitt did. Smith did everything he was asked, and he made the players around him look better and play harder. Its the alternate argument to the one always used for Sanders..POOR Barry, he never played with good supporting cast..Which is hogwash..Not they weren't great, but he had solid players on the offensive side of the ball. BETTER supporting cast than Walter Payton that's for sure...The Lions did EVERYTHING in their power to help Barry get off as many highlight film runs as he could..Problem is, when he wasn't making them, most of his other plays resulted in negative results and lots of 3rd and longs...Go back and look at the score sheets and the play-by-plays at how many 3rd and 7+ the Lions had to overcome..I guarantee the defenses weren't stacking for the run on those, mainly because Barry wasn't even on the field for many of them.
No Emmitt did not have the sick moves that Barry had..No one short of Gale Sayers has...But he made better decisions and helped his team more than Barry did..As someone mentioned earlier, if you want to rate "BEST OPEN FIELD RUNNER" of all-time, it would be close between Barry Sanders and Gale Sayers..But there is more to being a great RB than being great in the open field..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Excellent analysis. I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly.
I watched more than my fair shair of Cowboy games. I would routinely go to the local bar with a dish and watch the Cowboys. I saw as much as most Cowboy fans did.
The reality still remains...Emmitt had a superior supporting cast, and it is probably one of the best supporting casts in history. Yes he did have many big holes to run through, and I am not comparing that just to Sanders...I am comparing that to the other elite backs in football.
Emmitt was also part of that supporting cast, and he in turn supported Aikman & Co. That is why they were a great team, because they had guys like that all over the field. But that is also why their single players are often overrated, or think so highly of themselves(like Aikman does). Their coach was also instrumental in putting it all together.
It worked out great for Emmitt that his skill set fit perfectly into that team, in that situation, with all those great players...but that still doesn't make him better than other RB's who didnt' have that luxury of finding a perfect match...and whom also performed just as well or better in spite of the disadvange they had.
<< <i>I was wondering how long until the Barry lovers would come out...lol
You can quote all the stats and situations you want...The argument you make can also be viewed as players like Jim Brown made the players around them better..While guys like Barry never met a run play he followed through on..Hard to have team success or strong blocking when the runner never goes where he is supposed to..I don't remember him ever doing much to help anyone but himself..He never cared about his team or his teammates..Many of them have been interviewed and stated as much...Not to mention he threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus...Had Emmitt Smith played for the Lions, maybe Herman Moore and Lomas Brown would be in the HOF rather than Irvin and Aikman...
Also, Walter Payton played on MUCH WORSE teams than Barry ever did, and with MUCH WORSE talent around him on offense..Look back at how many Pro Bowl offensive players the Bears had during Payton's career..The difference is that if it was 3rd and 3, you could depend on Walter to get those 3 yards on the ground, or make the block on a blitzing LB or get open for the QB to have a checkdown...Barry wasn't even in the game on MANY 3rd downs because you couldn't depend on him to do those things..If I am building a team, I value that consistency more than i do a few highlight film runs every game...The reason Barry is the all-time yardage lost leader is NOT because defenses were stacking against him..Defenses stack against ALL of the GREAT RBs..What caused Barry to lose all those yards was BARRY dancing in the backfield looking for way to break a 50 yard run...How many times were defensive players in his backfield BEFORE Barry had the handoff and made his first move???Not often...Emmitt Smith rarely hesitated and would hit the first hole available and he would get you 4-5 yards on a consistent basis..That kept the Cowboys offense on the field and successful.
In the end, I have to trust my eyes...And Barry had too many negatives in his game to put him above Jim Brown or Walter Payton on my list.
Jason >>
Barry Lovers? Nah, I don't love Barry. Don't even know him. I am a Detroit fan and did watch every game he played here, but that just means I may be more knowledgable about his professional career than some. Why does someone have to be a "Barry lover" if they argue he may have been better than another player? Are you a Jim Brown lover? C'mon, I love the game. I've watched and read a lot about tons of players. Barry just happens to be the guy I probably know a lot more about than anybody else simply because I watched every game. I still have probably 60 games transferred to DVD of him playing here. I've seen all of them multiple times as we used to run them all day long in the card shop I used to work at.
You could try to argue that Brown made the players around him better, but they were already a team that won two of the last three championships before Brown arrived so that arguement would be hard to substantiate. You can also grossly generalize that Barry never followed through on a run play when he obviously did so way more often than not. You can spew all of the negatives you've heard on ESPN or read in a fortune cookie about this guy, but apparently you never bothered to many games. He usually went where the play was designed to. He sometimes winged it, but it wasn't as if he did it by a staggering percentage. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. This team was clearly MUCH better with him. I think only an idiot would argue otherwise. Further, his teammates loved the guy. Some griped when he held out or about how he chose to leave the team, but I doubt anybody was loved more when he played here. All of these supposed "interviews" you claim to have seen must have been repeats of the same guy. He threw more than one of his head coaches under the bus??? Where do you pull your facts from? Your rectum? He only had two while he was here. Fontes and him were like best buddies. He never said a bad thing about Wayne that I ever heard. In fact, he was one of the loudest to complain when Wayne was fired. He did have his problems with Ross, but Ross created most of the issues. He publicly called out Barry when Barry held out for a new contract. Before Ross arrived, Barry was also allowed to miss mini camp (like many other star players). Ross called him out publicly on that, questioning his devotion to the team. In fact, it was Ross who continually threw Barry "under the bus". He is the reason Barry retired. Everybody here knows that. Most who knew anything about the situation knew that. That's why after Ross was fired, Moeller, Mornhinweg and Mooch all called Barry when they were hired asking if he'd consider returning.
And you can argue why you think Barry lost all of that yardage, but dancing in the backfield wasn't the only reason. Guys like Emmitt and Brown had backfield mates to lead block. Barry almost never had a fullback to lead in and open the whole, or to pick up the first LB that was filling it. Even in many short yardage opportunities, they stayed with the single back. I would bet Emmitt rarely ran in a single back in 3rd and short, especially on the goalline. Further, many of Barrys losses (where you claim he was looking to break a 50 yard run) in the backfield happened in situations where it was 3rd and 8, not 3rd and 2. And again, your facts come from a Cracker Jack box. Barry was in for the large majority of the third downs when he was here. They really didn't start pulling him on third down until Ross arrived and that was at the end of his career.
Lets break down this YARDAGE LOST BS. All of the people who bring this up have probably never had it put into perspective for them, or they would realize it's basically a non-issue. He lost 7 yards a game on average. When spanned acrossed his entire career, it averages into about 2 - 3.5 yard losses per game. Whoooopie!!! His average per carry acrossed his entire career is 5 yards, even with these losses. People make it sound like he was tripping over himself his entire career with "all of those losses". I think 2 short losses a game is acceptable collateral damage for a guy who averaged 5 yards a carry and could bust the big one at any time. Further, people just think he had one 80 yard run and then 15 runs of 1 yard. Sure, he had some games where he struggled before hitting a huge run. Especially during the run and shoot days when their team was all about big plays, but couldn't sustain a drive. But if you actually watched enough games, you'd realize this guy mainly had average length runs like any other back. It's just games like the Green Bay playoff game got a ton of publicity because they got dominated and Barry didn't do a thing (nor did anyone else on their team). Further, look at some of the films or review some games. Barry OFTEN turned a likely 5 yard loss into only a one yard loss. He made plenty of blitzers miss him 5-8 yards deep and somehow managed to get back near line of scrimmage. His losses weren't always because he was dancing as some generalize.
Further, Lomas probably deserves the Hall but will likely never get there based on the fact they never won a championship. Moore would be a shoe-in if he played longer. He led the league in receptions for 2 years. He has the second highest season total ever. He just started to suffer from injuries and back pain. If he played another 5 years at the level he was, he would have made it easily. But instead, he played healthy for only 8 seasons before injuries got the best of him. And his rookie year, he basically sat the bench. Herman put up 670 receptions, basically in 8 seasons. That guy was a stud, just not a healthy one for very long. I would argue he was at least as good as Irvin, but his numbers don't match because he didn't play for as long.
So in the end, you can go ahead and trust your eyes, but take the blinders off first
Where did you get your facts in regard to Sanders average lose per carry, game, etc...?
Your argument/reasoning is more thought out and less bias than what is typically written from Emmitt fans...I would have to tip my cap to your ability to separate yourself a bit from your 'love'...I know you don't like that term, but it is easy to use.
You also bring up some interesting points in regard to Brown and his supporting cast. A lot of people make it seem as if it was Jim Brown and then 44 other guys in ugly uniforms. Others seemed to have glossed over that aspect that you seem to have spent some time on, and it may warrant a deeper look.
As I mentioned above, Emmitt had one of the best supporting casts in football. NO RUNNING BACK would win titles without that luxury, or NECESSITY! That is partly where these guys get the extra credit, yet it is an aspect that is in a great part out of their control individually.
One thing in regard with comparing the second running back oon the team though is that sometimes he gets the 'easy' carries on third and long, and rarely gets the pure short yardage carries that can bring down your average.
I would be more curious on a breakdown on Sanders' losses, etc...
-Skin
<< <i>I don't think it is a "bash" to Emmitt to say Walter Payton was better...Emmitt himself would tell you that...
Emmitt vs. Barry can be debated all day...Emmitt vs. Walter or Emmitt vs. Jim Brown, there is really no debate. And anyone trying to does so based on either lack of awareness or an agenda towards a particular player (i.e. Cowboys fans voting for Emmitt)...
Brown and Payton were IMO, easily the top 2 RBs of all-time..The other rankings can be argued and such, but really these 2 shouldn't be. Much like Rice and Hutson, its a clear separation, the top 2, then everybody else.
Jason >>
And not that it means anything, but right after Emmitt broke Paytons record they showed and interview with him on either CBS or NBC before his next game. He apparently owns a card or memorabilia shop in Florida and they did the interview there. They were asking him about where he thought it put him in regards to the greatest of all-time. He laughed and said something to the effect of if Barry had a better team and played a couple more years, they wouldn't even be interviewing him on that day. He said if Barry played 5 more years (which Emmitt felt Barry was more than capable of doing), he would have easily shattered the record and eclipsed 20,000 yards. He went on to say Barry would have put the record where no player would ever be able to break it. He also said he felt Barry was the best ever.
Again, better or best is up for debate.
<< <i>Dirtmonkey,
Where did you get your facts in regard to Sanders average lose per carry, game, etc...?
Your argument/reasoning is more thought out and less bias than what is typically written from Emmitt fans...I would have to tip my cap to your ability to separate yourself a bit from your 'love'...I know you don't like that term, but it is easy to use.
You also bring up some interesting points in regard to Brown and his supporting cast. A lot of people make it seem as if it was Jim Brown and then 44 other guys in ugly uniforms. Others seemed to have glossed over that aspect that you seem to have spent some time on, and it may warrant a deeper look.
As I mentioned above, Emmitt had one of the best supporting casts in football. NO RUNNING BACK would win titles without that luxury, or NECESSITY! That is partly where these guys get the extra credit, yet it is an aspect that is in a great part out of their control individually.
One thing in regard with comparing the second running back oon the team though is that sometimes he gets the 'easy' carries on third and long, and rarely gets the pure short yardage carries that can bring down your average.
I would be more curious on a breakdown on Sanders' losses, etc...
-Skin >>
I saw a breakdown before of the number of losses he had, compiled with the yardage lost and the number of games he played in. I believe it was in an article in the Detroit Free Press. It said something like he had nearly 300 carries that resulted in a loss. He lost a total of 1,114 yards over his career. That was in a total of 150+ games. All the math was there. They also had a breakdown of carries for no yards, 1 yard, 2 yards and up to 10 and then everything over 10 yards. It was pretty balanced considering, which proved the "Sanders was a homerun or bust" thought was more of a myth.
I'm not what I would consider biased about Barry. I had what I would label "borderline inappropriate man-love" for this guy in college. I was thrilled when the Lions drafted him. But I didn't stop watching other games. I enjoyed watching all of the great backs around that time. Bo, Thurman, Emmitt, Bettis, etc... Lots of very good players. Again, I'm not saying Barry was the best or the worst. I'm not saying he was better than anybody else. I will argue some players had better situations where they had a higher likelihood of success. It's obvious to me that Jas hasn't really watched any of his games, or at least not many. He's bought into the same myth others have about Barry getting minus 5 yards, and then gaining 10 on the next. It's simply bogus. But hey, it's all good.
<< <i>
I am a Detroit fan and did watch every game he played here, but that just means I may be more knowledgable about his professional career than some. >>
Nuff said...
Barry Sanders -- Overrated
Barry Sanders, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2004 (his first year of eligibility), scored one touchdown for every 35 touches in his 153 regular-season games, but just one touchdown in 112 postseason touches in six playoff games.
Indeed, Sanders' only career playoff touchdown was a 47-yard run against the Dallas Cowboys in a 1991 divisional-round playoff game in the Pontiac Silverdome. The Lions won that game 38-6. Sanders' touchdown came in the final minutes of the fourth quarter with Detroit already leading 31-6. The following week, the Lions went on the road to play the Washington Redskins at RFK Stadium. Sanders was not a factor. Detroit took a 41-10 beating.
Barry Sanders
US Presswire
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home.
Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points.
Nobody is suggesting that a bust of Barry should not be in Canton. He's the third-leading rusher of all time with 15,269 yards. He holds the all-time NFL record for consecutive 1,000 seasons with 10, from 1989 to 1998. Sanders was the first player to rush for 1,500 yards in a season five times. He was selected to 10 Pro Bowls. In 1997, when he rushed for 2,053 yards, he was NFL co-MVP, an honor he should have not had to share with Brett Favre that season. In 1988, Sanders won the Heisman Trophy at Oklahoma State.
But this picture of perfection has a nasty blemish. Once Sanders got to the big stage, and got out of the Silverdome, he was a bust.
Take the wild-card playoff game at Lambeau Field in 1994. That season, Sanders averaged 5.7 yards per carry -- the second-highest total of his career. In the first round of the playoffs against the Green Bay Packers, on Lambeau Field's frozen tundra, Sanders set an NFL postseason record for rushing futility. He had 13 carries for minus-one yard. He had four catches that day -- for four yards. Which means he had 16 touches for a total of three yards -- 2.7 yards less than he averaged per rush in the regular season.
Now, the spirited defense of putting him in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot always includes the theory that Sanders was the only thing the Lions had going for them in The Barry Sanders Era. That's exactly what it is -- a theory, and a bad one at that.
Did we forget about wide receivers Herman Moore and Brett Perriman? The Lions stretched the field for Sanders -- especially in the Dome. This helped him be wildly successful -- in the regular season. And in the years when the Lions went to the playoffs, their defense was not awful. It was middle of the pack -- ranked 11th in 1991, 15th in 1993, 19th in 1994, 14th in 1995 and 10th in 1997.
There is another ugly scar on Sanders' career: His Greta Garbo act on the way out the door.
After rushing for 1,491 yards in 1998, Sanders abruptly and mysteriously retired. At the time, he was 1,457 yards shy of Walter Payton's all-time rushing record. His defenders say Sanders -- who played the game with dignity and class -- did not owe anybody anything. As long as he was at peace with the decision, that was enough. That's bunk.
Here was a man who benefited greatly from the support of his teammates, his organization and his fans -- and he just turned his back on them without a word of gratitude. He left his teammates and a franchise in the lurch, to the point that the Lions demanded he return $7.3 million of his signing bonus.
Years later, when it was time for him to become eligible for Canton, Sanders had to be coaxed into providing some kind of explanation for his untimely retirement.
It was too little, too late.
Postscript: Of the five leading rushers in NFL history, Sanders is the only one to never reach a Super Bowl. The others -- Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis -- all reached at least one Super Bowl. And all but Martin won at least one NFL championship ring.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Again, I'm not saying Barry was the best or the worst. I'm not saying he was better than anybody else. I will argue some players had better situations where they had a higher likelihood of success. It's obvious to me that Jas hasn't really watched any of his games, or at least not many. He's bought into the same myth others have about Barry getting minus 5 yards, and then gaining 10 on the next. It's simply bogus. But hey, it's all good. >>
Wow..This is a first..I've been accused of many things, but never accused of watching TOO LITTLE footage of anyone..lol
Being that NFL history has been my #1 hobby for the past 20 years, I can assure you, I've watched as much Barry as anyone short of his position coaches..In all honesty, I think it is those who tout his greatness that didn't watch ALL of Barry, but rather go by what they saw on the ESPN highlight shows...My collection of DVDs and vintage game footage is not Barry or Lion-centric however. I own quite a bit of footage of many teams, games and players but not all games and players...My scoresheets and play-by-play records are fairly extensive as well..
Typical Barry:
Barry, Barry, Barry
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it!
<< <i>
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it! >>
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home.
Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Seems that Jason and I may be twin sons of different mothers...
Oh well.
<< <i>It is too bad Sayers career was effected by knee problems no doubt he would have been that much better- I have seen minimal footage of Sayers and a lot of Barry Sanders, leaving out the "who's better" debate I will say Sanders has had some breathtaking scampers in the open field however I remember in the early days of my fantasy football career a bunch of guys saying to the guy who drafted Sanders- "Nice you got about 1800 yards to go along with 3 TD's " Sanders would be out of gas after all those moves and get caught inside the 5 a bunch of times, so in the open field to the endzone maybe Sayers was better? I dont know because I did not see enough footage of Sayers to make that claim, maybe I shouldnt have claimed Sanders was either. >>
Here's a small taste perk:
Gale Sayers
From NFL Network
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sayers-6 TDs in One Game
And he did it with a WORSE supporting cast than Barry had...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How about this then, in the open field nobody was better than Barry Sanders? >>
Perk:
I may have to disagree to an extent. Gale Sayers was at least Sanders equal before the knee injuries. And Sayers did it on dirt and grass. Does Barry have ANY highlight runs on natural surface?
I recall that Barry's per game numbers on natural surface were a far cry from his numbers on the synthetic surface.
Can you imagine Sayers, with two good knees, playing on synthetic surface?!?!? I'm sporting just thinking about it! >>
Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home.
Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.
In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points. >>
Again, not true... Barry's stats from his 1997 campain (2000+ yards). He averaged 6.1 yards for the season, but averaged more than that in away games at Chicago (19/161/8.5 /grass), Tampa (24/215/9.0 /grass) & Washington (15/105/7.0 /grass). In his other away games on grass, he averaged 4.3 (25/107) at Buffalo, 4.6 (23/105) at Green Bay and 4.6 (30/137) at Miami... all games in which he ran for over 100 yards.
1989 - In his rookie year, he only played on grass twice... Green bay. 30 - 181 yards (6.1 avg). Giants 12 - 57 (4.8)
1990 - Second year. Tampa - 15/52/3.5 - Kansas City - 16/90/5.6 - Giants 11/69/6.3 - Chicago 17/61/3.6 - Green Bay - 19/133/7.0
1991 - Third year - San Fran - 7/26/3.7 - Chicago 18/63/3.5 - Green Bay 27/85/3.1 - Buffalo - 26/108/4.2
1992 - Chicago 19/109/5.7 - Washington 14/34/2.4 - Tampa 21/122/5.8 - Pittsburgh 21/94/4.5 - Green Bay 16/114/7.1 - San Fran 19/104/5.5
1993 - New England 32/148/4.6 - Tampa 22/130/5.9 - LA 26/91/3.5 - Green Bay 17/75/4.4
1994 - Tampa 20/166/8.3 - Giants 26/146/5.6 - Green Bay 15/74/3.1 - Chicago 11/42/3.8 - Miami 12/52/4.3
Supports? LOL. Again, looks like you bought into some BS about the guy struggling on grass. Looks pretty much like he was equally impressive in most games on grass (I think all of these stadiums are grass - lol) during the regular season. In fact, the ones he struggled in were usually against great D's or divisional teams, which could be said for most players. You can mention all of those poor playoff games, but a lot of those games they were being punished and gave up on running the ball to try to catch up.
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
Barry averaged 4.2 YPC in the playoffs. Emmitt averaged 4.5. You also have an enormous problem with sample size, since Barry played in exactly 6 post-season games, if you want to use postseason results as an indicator of who was the superior back.
<< <i>
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
LOL, you keep spewing crap that I disprove or shed light on, and then you finally come up with the obvious. Well... my dad can beat up your dad
Emmitt came up big, but so did his teammates. None of Barrys teammates ever did crap in the playoffs, so I guess it became easier for opposing teams to stop one man. Yawn...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So to add after doing a bit of math, for these seasons (I can check the others if you need help) he averaged 4.2 yards per carry. Sure, not quite up to his lifetime average per carry of 5.0, but merely equal to Emmitts lifetime average... and this all on grass that he is said to have struggled on. Pretty solid I say indeed. >>
Not the same story in the playoffs..Emmitt came up big in the biggest games..Barry didn't..
Jason >>
Barry averaged 4.2 YPC in the playoffs. Emmitt averaged 4.5. You also have an enormous problem with sample size, since Barry played in exactly 6 post-season games, if you want to use postseason results as an indicator of who was the superior back. >>
Yes, but Emmitt had a much bigger heart. Seriously, the measured and weighed it!!!
Jason >>>
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject