Greatest RB of All-Time
JasP24
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in Sports Talk
Ahhh, the age old debate surfaces again...9 of these 10 are also in my personal rankings, but I think Earl Campbell should be here instead of Lenny Moore...Being a great receiving RB is all fine and dandy, but its all about what they do when they take a handoff..And I would take Campbell over Moore every time in that case...
Bottom line is, for all the Barry Sanders lovers here is another dose of reality...It's Jim Brown, hands down...
Top 10 RBs of All Time
Don Shula, Marv Levy, Emmitt Thomas, Jack Bushofsky, Dan Reeves, Jerry Richardson, Robert Smith and Floyd Reese helped ESPN.com evaluate the best running backs in NFL history. ESPN.com weighed their contributions, balancing rankings with anecdotal evidence and statistics to create the following list: (ZOOM gallery)
1. JIM BROWN
Career: Upon retiring before '66 season, the Browns' RB was all-time leader in rushing yards (12,312), all-purpose yards (15,549) and touchdowns (126).
Quick quote: "Incredible combination of speed and power. As a defensive back, I'm happy he retired just as I came into the league, because my career might have been a lot shorter if I had to tackle him.'' -- Thomas
2. BARRY SANDERS
Career: Sudden retirement in '99 came with the Lions' RB trailing only Walter Payton on the all-time rushing list. Ran for more than 1,500 yards in a season five times.
Quick quote: "He's the only guy I've ever seen who could hurt defenders without touching them. He'd have them twisting their ankles and running into each other.'' -- Reese
3. WALTER PAYTON
Career: Played on mediocre Bears teams until late in career but retired as leading rusher (16,726) in history.
Quick quote: "The most complete back ever."' -- Shula
4. EMMITT SMITH
Career: Smith, who played 13 seasons for Dallas and two for Arizona, took over as all-time rushing leader in '02. His 164 rushing touchdowns are the most in history.
Quick quote: "Phenomenal and extremely tough player. Incredible balance and leverage.'' -- Reeves
5. GALE SAYERS
Career: Knee problems forced him to retire in '71 after seven seasons with the Bears. At 33, he was the youngest person selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Quick quote: "I used to watch him and say, 'How can anybody be that good?'" -- Levy
6. LADAINIAN TOMLINSON
Career: The Chargers' RB has at least 1,200 rushing yards and 50 receptions in each of his first seven seasons.
Quick quote: "He brings as much versatility as any running back ever has.'' -- Smith
7. MARSHALL FAULK
Career: Began career with Indianapolis in '94 but was traded to St. Louis in '99 and became cornerstone of "Greatest Show on Turf." First running back in history to lead his team in receptions in five different seasons.
Quick quote: "Could have been an All-Pro as a wide receiver.'' -- Bushofsky
8. O.J. SIMPSON
Career: The Bills' great became the first player in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards in a season when he gained 2,003 in '73.
Quick quote: "He had it all. He had the same type balance as Jim Brown, and he could just keep going and going.'' -- Reeves
9. LENNY MOORE
Credentials: One of Johnny Unitas' key weapons for the Colts, he scored a touchdown in 18 straight regular-season appearances between '63 and '65.
Quick quote: "He may be underappreciated, but he was very similar to what Marshall Faulk has been more recently.'' -- Richardson, who was Moore's teammate for two years in Baltimore.
10. ERIC DICKERSON
Credentials: Reached 10,000 rushing yards in 91 games (the fastest pace in history) and rushed for 2,105 yards in '84. Played for Rams, Colts, Falcons and Raiders.
Quick quote: "He didn't look fast, but he was so long-legged that he could go the distance.'' -- Reeves
ESPN Total SportsNation Votes: 11,999
(#1 Votes)Points
1 Jim Brown (4,318) 102,075
2 Barry Sanders (3,535) 100,614
3 Walter Payton (2,587) 100,134
4 Emmitt Smith (945) 66,205
5 Gale Sayers (88) 57,258
6 LaDainian Tomlinson (337) 56,489
7 Eric Dickerson (55) 55,401
8 O.J. Simpson (65) 47,875
9 Marshall Faulk (55) 44,542
10 Lenny Moore (14) 25,661
My personal rankings:
1- Jim Brown
2- Walter Payton
3- Barry Sanders
4- OJ Simpson
5- Emmitt Smith
6- Gale Sayers
7- Earl Campbell
8- Marshall Faulk
9- LaDanian Tomlinson
10- Eric Dickerson
Jason
Bottom line is, for all the Barry Sanders lovers here is another dose of reality...It's Jim Brown, hands down...
Top 10 RBs of All Time
Don Shula, Marv Levy, Emmitt Thomas, Jack Bushofsky, Dan Reeves, Jerry Richardson, Robert Smith and Floyd Reese helped ESPN.com evaluate the best running backs in NFL history. ESPN.com weighed their contributions, balancing rankings with anecdotal evidence and statistics to create the following list: (ZOOM gallery)
1. JIM BROWN
Career: Upon retiring before '66 season, the Browns' RB was all-time leader in rushing yards (12,312), all-purpose yards (15,549) and touchdowns (126).
Quick quote: "Incredible combination of speed and power. As a defensive back, I'm happy he retired just as I came into the league, because my career might have been a lot shorter if I had to tackle him.'' -- Thomas
2. BARRY SANDERS
Career: Sudden retirement in '99 came with the Lions' RB trailing only Walter Payton on the all-time rushing list. Ran for more than 1,500 yards in a season five times.
Quick quote: "He's the only guy I've ever seen who could hurt defenders without touching them. He'd have them twisting their ankles and running into each other.'' -- Reese
3. WALTER PAYTON
Career: Played on mediocre Bears teams until late in career but retired as leading rusher (16,726) in history.
Quick quote: "The most complete back ever."' -- Shula
4. EMMITT SMITH
Career: Smith, who played 13 seasons for Dallas and two for Arizona, took over as all-time rushing leader in '02. His 164 rushing touchdowns are the most in history.
Quick quote: "Phenomenal and extremely tough player. Incredible balance and leverage.'' -- Reeves
5. GALE SAYERS
Career: Knee problems forced him to retire in '71 after seven seasons with the Bears. At 33, he was the youngest person selected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Quick quote: "I used to watch him and say, 'How can anybody be that good?'" -- Levy
6. LADAINIAN TOMLINSON
Career: The Chargers' RB has at least 1,200 rushing yards and 50 receptions in each of his first seven seasons.
Quick quote: "He brings as much versatility as any running back ever has.'' -- Smith
7. MARSHALL FAULK
Career: Began career with Indianapolis in '94 but was traded to St. Louis in '99 and became cornerstone of "Greatest Show on Turf." First running back in history to lead his team in receptions in five different seasons.
Quick quote: "Could have been an All-Pro as a wide receiver.'' -- Bushofsky
8. O.J. SIMPSON
Career: The Bills' great became the first player in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards in a season when he gained 2,003 in '73.
Quick quote: "He had it all. He had the same type balance as Jim Brown, and he could just keep going and going.'' -- Reeves
9. LENNY MOORE
Credentials: One of Johnny Unitas' key weapons for the Colts, he scored a touchdown in 18 straight regular-season appearances between '63 and '65.
Quick quote: "He may be underappreciated, but he was very similar to what Marshall Faulk has been more recently.'' -- Richardson, who was Moore's teammate for two years in Baltimore.
10. ERIC DICKERSON
Credentials: Reached 10,000 rushing yards in 91 games (the fastest pace in history) and rushed for 2,105 yards in '84. Played for Rams, Colts, Falcons and Raiders.
Quick quote: "He didn't look fast, but he was so long-legged that he could go the distance.'' -- Reeves
ESPN Total SportsNation Votes: 11,999
(#1 Votes)Points
1 Jim Brown (4,318) 102,075
2 Barry Sanders (3,535) 100,614
3 Walter Payton (2,587) 100,134
4 Emmitt Smith (945) 66,205
5 Gale Sayers (88) 57,258
6 LaDainian Tomlinson (337) 56,489
7 Eric Dickerson (55) 55,401
8 O.J. Simpson (65) 47,875
9 Marshall Faulk (55) 44,542
10 Lenny Moore (14) 25,661
My personal rankings:
1- Jim Brown
2- Walter Payton
3- Barry Sanders
4- OJ Simpson
5- Emmitt Smith
6- Gale Sayers
7- Earl Campbell
8- Marshall Faulk
9- LaDanian Tomlinson
10- Eric Dickerson
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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Comments
Jason you being a Football Historian I am absolutely SHOCKED you didnt mention his name let alone be in your top 5! Is that because he was a Fullback and played Defense as well?
My Personal Rankings
1-Bronko Nagurski
2-Jim Brown
3-Barry Sanders
4-Walter Payton
5-Emmitt Smith
6-Gayle Sayers
7-Eric Dickerson
8-Earl Cambell
9-Marshal Faulk
10-Tony Dorsett
Im going to let L.T finish his career before I rank him, also it should be known that if it wasnt for injury Bo Jackson might have been the best Running back of our generation.
Edit- Had to add Tony Dorsett in my top 10
Yea, how they leave Earl Campbell off that top ten list baffles me - I never saw any running back just crush and run over defenders like Earl Campbell did - he didn't even need blockers.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Barry Sanders HAS to be the best RB of all-time. If for no other reason that he accomplished so much with so little around him, from the offensive line, to the head coach to the quarterback, to the ... For his career, the Lions were 78-82 ... not even .500.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
I used to think that way as well but I really dont think Sanders had the toughness in him to play the game like it was in the early days of Pro Football. He certainly had the best ability as far as athleticism though IMO
<< <i>I used to think that way as well but I really dont think Sanders had the toughness in him to play the game like it was in the early days of Pro Football. He certainly had the best ability as far as athleticism though IMO >>
And the players from the early days didn't have the athletic skills to even make D1 NCAA in modern football
All you can do is judge a player by what he did while on the field. And while on the field only one running back ever could have made the worst sports franchise into a perennial playoff team. One player being able to make the Lions into a good football team is pretty amazing
Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know...
1. Sanders
2. Sweetness
<< <i>Anyone who suggests ANY modern back over Jim Brown needs to view some video of Brown playing. He was Earl Campbell AND Walter Payton AND Emmitt Smith all rolled into one. He could rush over you, run around you, and if the defender had a bead on him he could sidestep him and if he couldn't sidestep him, he'd lower his shoulder and lay the hit on the defender.
Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know... >>
Well there is always that argument that Brown would not rush over a very althletic 275llb LB or 300llb lineman- both of which he never encountered in his day, Brown played in a much more violent era but Sanders played in a more athletic era..
I have given this some thought and the only fair way to break NFL greats down is by decade.
1) Gale Sayers
2) The Juice
3) Barry Sanders
4) Sweetness
5) Jim Brown
Dave
PS Why is Dickerson even on the list?
I think you have to look at level of success and dominance over the competition. Jim Brown was so far beyond any of his peers. It has little to do with the change of style or the difference in the size and speed of today's player.
Sanders was a dominant performer, but he couldn't lead his team to victory. Too many times, he'd dance behind the line on third and 2, lose yardage and the Lions would punt. Brown, Payton, Emmitt . . . they got that first down. They understood that moving the ball meant a drive of 11 straight 4 yard carries and then a TD. Sanders was too busy trying to find room to bust off 44 yards on one carry.
Sanders was great, but he wasn't head and shoulders above his contemporaries. Emmitt, Terrell Davis, Dickerson, and Faulk were all considered the top RB's at some point during their careers and they all played during Sanders career. And that's not even counting others like O.J. Simpson, Walter Payton, Marcus Allen and Earl Campbell that played the decade before him.
<< <i>I think you have to look at level of success and dominance over the competition. >>
Of course you have to. Then you have to look at how capable the competition was. He was playing against many athletes who didn't even approach the game as a full-time job.
There was one year Jim Brown had nearly twice as many rushing yards as the second highest total. There were two other years he had about 80% more. Are you seriously suggesting Tomlinson or anyone else in the modern NFL would have to rush for close to 3 000 yards to equal the level of Brown?
<< <i>Of course you have to. Then you have to look at how capable the competition was. He was playing against many athletes who didn't even approach the game as a full-time job.
There was one year Jim Brown had nearly twice as many rushing yards as the second highest total. There were two other years he had about 80% more. Are you seriously suggesting Tomlinson or anyone else in the modern NFL would have to rush for close to 3 000 yards to equal the level of Brown? >>
TomG,
You can apply many of those same things to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Lou Gehrig, etc... Players from that 'weaker' era of less competition(due to many factors), yet just dominate fans' all-time lists.
A player would have to hit over 200 HR to equal Ruth's feat of outhomering every team in the league. It isn't because Ruth was that much better than the competition, but rather the circumstances that allowed him to do that.
Emmitt Smith wasn't any faster than Brown. He certainly wasn't any tougher...yet he was able to do quite fine against these athletic 275 pound guys. Why couldn't Brown?
Ruth, Brown, Cobb, Wilt...all these guys are not as good as their 'numbers' suggest, and none of them are as bad as the naysayers promote.
Some promote the concept that size isn't as important in baseball, and that may be partially true...but a lack of the same number of MLB caliber players certainly is a dominating factor contributing to the myth of Ruth and other old time playres that unfairly domiante the all-time list landscape.
If you have that stance against Brown, I would hope then that you have the same against Ruth.
No doubt about it.
RB
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Emmitt Smith wasn't any faster than Brown. He certainly wasn't any tougher...yet he was able to do quite fine against these athletic 275 pound guys. Why couldn't Brown?
>>
In my eyes, Brown was better than Smith, so there is no question he could have. The problem is that because Brown ran over less able players to degree unmatched by anyone else does not automatically "hands down" make him the best
I consider Williams and Bonds to be better than Ruth. Being the third best baseball player over 150+ years is not in anyway a slight against Ruth. If someone else sees Ruth as being the best ever that is certainly reasonable. But if they say a modern player needs to hit more homeruns than entire teams, to surpass Ruth, that is absolutely wrong
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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His 1st 7 years in the league. Havent done the research but I would have to imagine this is the best 7 year stretch in nfl history? When he retired he was the 2nd leading rusher of all time, still 6th at 13,259. That might be why.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
link
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Barry Sanders was one exciting player. Dominate? Come on, 3rd and short and your not in the game? The All-time yards lost from scrimage king was many exciting things, But a dominate back he was not. He simply did not have the heart and soul toughness Emmitt had thats for sure.
I VERY much agree Earl Campbell belongs on that top 10 list somewhere. He was a one man wrecking crew! The likes Ive not seen since.
The Greatest? well I don't know about all that silliness, But when the chips are down and its third to go... I want a north/south guy.
My picks for the guy I want on my team thats going to give me the best chance of winning.
JIM BROWN
Power, Size, Speed, He had it all and was the total package. What more can you say?
GALE SAYERS
The "Kansas Comet" The Best pure runner the NFL has ever seen. If not for the career ending knee injury I truely believe Gale Sayers
would have been at the top of most rushing records. That is of course the one's he didn't already have.
EMMITT SMITH
Without Question the Greatest modern day back. His heart and soul determination to win is unmatched, with numbers to prove it.
He had great field vision and balance. He had an uncanny and subtle way of making people miss. The Cowboys don't win those
championships in the 90's without Emmitt. I knew Emmit was going to be a special player when I seen him almost single handedly
stun the Eagles on a Monday Night game early in his carreer.
EARL CAMPBELL
The NFL has not seen the likes since. Campbell was the most devastating runner I have ever seen. His highlight footage is like Godzilla
destroying Tokyo. I think he and the Oilers were robbed in the 79 AFC Chamionship against the Steelers on the "Renfro" Call.
Not only did Earl literally destroy linebackers, he then had the speed to out run the secondary. 3rd and short..... Yeah, I'll gladly take
Earl Campbell without question. His omisson from the ESPN Top 10 list is just plain wrong.
WALTER PAYTON
One day I think God sat down and said, "Im going to make me a Half Back" He wasn't the biggest, or the Fastest. Walter was a
blue collar back. What he may have lacked in size and speed he more than made up for with sheer heart and soul toughness.
His work Ethic, leadership and personality transended the football field. He was all out weather the Bears were winning or losing and
never once did I see him "Skip out of bounce" He was one of the toughest most durable backs the NFL has ever seen. But more than
anything he was the type of human being we should all aspire to be.
BRONCO NAGURSKI
It is hard to dispute the devastion Nagurski demonstrated on the gridiron at a time when football was a truely brutal game.
The numbers and chamionships do not lie. It doesn't matter what era you talk about, for a player to be so totally dominate is no
small feat. A devestating runner who made the other team pay everytime he touched the ball.
OJ SIMPSON
Even though he is pretty much the lowest form of a human being. There is no dispute that "The Juice" had it all. Size, Speed and Power.
The first back to EVER rush for 2000 yards (and the ONLY to do it in a 14 game season) OJ was the greatest back of the seventies by far.
FRANCO HARRIS
The seventies Steelers dynasty is not so likely without "Franco's Army" . With the "Steel Curtain" and the HOF Recevers, I think the
Steeler running game and Franco are always overlooked. Franco not only pile up big yards, but important game winning yards for those seventies Steeler's teams. Catching the most famous pass in NFL history doesn't hurt your legend either.
JIM THORPE
Arguably not only one of the greatest football players of all time. But one of the greatest all around athletes of the past century.
Probably should be ranked higher, maybe even #1. Thorpe's domination was so complete that it is VERY unlikely we will ever see anyone
athlete dominte across the board as Thorpe did.
TERRELL DAVIS
I know your all saying.... WHAT? But those few years for the Broncos were quite possibly the greatest performances by a back Ive
ever seen. Im far from a Broncos fan and will go as far as saying that John Elway is one of the most overrated QB's of all-time (along
with Dan Marino) Boy this is really going to get some blood boiling! Marino never could win and without those spectacular seasons by
Terrell Davis, Elway would have never won either.
Davis was a brusing north/South runner and his performances over that 2, 3,4 year span may have been the most inspirational and single
greatest years ever put up by a player and included a 2000 yard season. Some of the toughest gittiest running Ive ever seen.
I mean this guy was Absolute MONEY when the chips were down.
Honorable Mention:
Tony Dorsett, Barry Sanders, Steve Van Buren, John Riggins, Eric Dickerson, Larry Csnoka, Jerome Bettis, Willbert Montgomery,
Paul Hornig, Lenny Moore, Curtis Martin.
<< <i>Personally, I would not call Jim Brown a great pass receiver. He averaged 29 catches a year for less than 10 yards a reception. Lenny Moore was the best RB/WR of his era by far. >>
Once again...a stats guy who doesn't look at the overall picture - Please remember that the passing game is totally different today, there weren't nearly as many passes thrown when Brown was playing as today, especially to running backs. Brown didn't catch as many passes simply because there weren't as many pass plays called to him, but he caught "everything" thrown his way...catching everything thrown your way to me is a great pass receiver.
<< <i>Anyone who suggests ANY modern back over Jim Brown needs to view some video of Brown playing. He was Earl Campbell AND Walter Payton AND Emmitt Smith all rolled into one. He could rush over you, run around you, and if the defender had a bead on him he could sidestep him and if he couldn't sidestep him, he'd lower his shoulder and lay the hit on the defender.
Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know... >>
AMEN!
Barry was great for the highlight reel, but carry for carry he hurt the Lions as much as he helped them. I'll never understand the "he had no talent around him" argument..
He had blockers who went to multiple Pro Bowls (Lomas Brown, Kevin Glover, Jeff Hartings, Bill Fralic)..He had a WR catching 100 balls a year and going to Pro Bowls (Herman Moore)..He played in a spread offense that allowed him to improvise and keep defenses honest...A FB blocker or pulling Guard would be worthless to Barry and his running style BECAUSE HE WOULD NEVER FOLLOW THEM. He was the king of improvise, and while it was great for the highlight reel plays, it was not a winning formula..The Lions ended up in way too many 2nd and 11 or 3rd and 10s because of Barry and his knack for losing yardage because of his dance routine.
That being said, what Barry could do with his stop and go, hard cutting moves was unbelievable at times and the reason he ranks so highly on the list...But that was really his only positive. He wasn't an outspoken leader of the team, he wasn't great in short yardage, wasn't a great receiver out of the backfield and didn;t always pick up the blitz as a blocker...If you needed 3 or 4 yards for a 1st down or TD, Barry wasn't your guy. Jim Brown could do it all, and he did it in a run heavy offense with defenses stacking to stop him on every play...As someone stated before, to do what he did is equal to someone today rushing for 3,000 yards in a season..That is how dominant he was in his era..Watch the film.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Barry was great for the highlight reel, but carry for carry he hurt the Lions as much as he helped them. I'll never understand the "he had no talent around him" argument..
<< <i>
Sanders hurt his team so much, the Lions have had a lot of success
Why do you think their one-back offense was successful because of everyone other than the running back? Why have no other teams been able to match that success with equal or better quarterbacks, line and recievers?
<< <i>As someone stated before, to do what he did is equal to someone today rushing for 3,000 yards in a season..That is how dominant he was in his era..Watch the film.
>>
If you truly believe it is necessary to rush for that many yards to equal the success of Brown you know nothing about how sports performance changes over time
In the early Olympics, the 200m was won by almost one full second. Could something so routine from so many decades ago ever happen now? Probably not. If it is that close to being impossible for a modern athlete to achieve, holding them to such a standard is silly
It is reasonable to think Brown is the best running back ever. To say no one is close, or that they need to rush for 3000 yards is unreasonable and illogical
Grange played offense and defense, he was a major force in bringing professional football to the forefront to compete for fans with college football. People paid to see Red Grange play, not to see the Bears play.
None of us saw him play but that isn't enough to discount him enough to keep him off the list if you're going to call it greatest EVER.
<< <i>If you're going to mention all time and you're going to include bronko nagurski then you maybe should at least consider Red Grange. Admittedly the competition wasn't what it is today. Defenses were made of guys named ernie nevers and red grange.
Grange played offense and defense, he was a major force in bringing professional football to the forefront to compete for fans with college football. People paid to see Red Grange play, not to see the Bears play.
None of us saw him play but that isn't enough to discount him enough to keep him off the list if you're going to call it greatest EVER. >>
I mentioned Nagurski because Grange himself was in awe of Bronko, Im telling you, pick up the book "Monsters of the Midway" and you will see why I peg Bronko as high as I do- The game of football ( Pre War style ) was in its infant stages and a guy like Bronko instilled fear in 95% of the league, he never had a 1000 yard season or even more than 140 carries in a season but neither did Grange or anyone except the brittle Beattie Feathers- and after his 1K season it took him another 5 seasons to gain the next 1K ! This guy played with injuries, and litterally knocked guys out of games- on a stretcher style- and was immpenitrable on Defense to boot.
Like I realized as the responses and opinions grow in this thread I dont think its fair for any player mentioned to give the best ever without breaking it down by Decade.
Why not give this a try?
Pre War- Bronko Nagurski
40's- Marion Motley? Steve Van Buren?
50's- Joe Perry? Lenny Moore?
60's-Jim Brown
70's-OJ Simpson?
80's-Walter Payton
90's-Sanders
00's-
I think for the sake of this discussion that is a fair assessment.
Top 10 PRE-modern era RBs
1- Steve Van Buren
2- Bronko Nagurski
3- Clark Hinkle
4- Cliff Battles
5- Ken Strong
6- Red Grange
7- Ernie Nevers
8- Bill Dudley
9- Tuffy Leemans
10-Tony Canadeo
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
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His 1st 7 years in the league. Havent done the research but I would have to imagine this is the best 7 year stretch in nfl history? When he retired he was the 2nd leading rusher of all time, still 6th at 13,259. That might be why.
John
In open field, Dickerson, was a thing of beauty. But he got stuffed on short yardage plays with regularity. That drops him from my list. IMO, converting on 4th and 1 separates the men from the boys.
Dave
<< <i>By decade? that may be taking it a little too far...The Pro Football HOF makes the distinction of Modern era vs. Pre-modern era at the year 1946. Pre-Modern Era is defined as the majority of a members' career that occurred prior to 1946. Modern Era is defined as a majority of a members' career that occurred after 1946.
I think for the sake of this discussion that is a fair assessment.
Top 10 PRE-modern era RBs
1- Steve Van Buren
2- Bronko Nagurski
3- Clark Hinkle
4- Cliff Battles
5- Ken Strong
6- Red Grange
7- Ernie Nevers
8- Bill Dudley
9- Tuffy Leemans
10-Tony Canadeo
Jason >>
With all due respect to the HOF but thats crazy to distinquish the Modern era as AFTER 1946. The game was so much different from the 1950's as opposed from 60's through the 00's
For example:
1932-The average team attempted 131 passes and 405 rushes (76-24 rush-to-pass)
1940-The average team attempted 225 passes and 413 rushes (65-35 rush-to-pass)
1950-The average team attempted 331 passes and 445 rushes (57-43 rush-to-pass)
1960-The average team attempted 316 passes and 391 rushes (55-45 rush-to-pass)
1970-The average team attempted 377 passes and 440 rushes (54-46 rush-to-pass)
1980-The average team attempted 490 passes and 514 rushes (51-49 rush-to-pass)
2007-The average team attempted 533 passes and 437 rushes (45-55 rush-to-pass)
So really, the run-to-pass ratios only changed by 6% in a 30 year period from 1950-1980..Not that different..From 1950 to 1970 only 3% change and the average number of plays per team per season only changed by 5% increase...From 1932-1950, the run-pass ratio changed by 19% and plays per game increased 31%...THAT is a huge shift...If we were to see a shift like that today QBs would be throwing 718 passes a season...
1946 is actually about dead on when modern era football that we see today became the norm..The 1920s and 1930s stuff is unrecognizable to what we see today..The 1960s game really isn't that different..Of course you have bigger and faster athletes these days as well as more rule changes that again helped the passing game...I think we might see that pass % scale back a tad this year now that the "force out" rule has been taken away..receivers gets pushed out, he's out..That helps the Defense and its ABOUT TIME!lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The cleveland rams moved west, making it a national league instead of a league extending as far west as green bay.
They allowed black players again after the ban that started in the early 1930s.
New commissioner Bert Bell started in 1946.
WW2 was over and no teams were losing players to the war effort.
The rival league AAFC started play. The Browns, Colts, and 49ers eventually ended up in the NFL from that league.
Don Hutson was really the driving force behind the change to a more pass-oriented offense, that happened before 1946, but more teams started passing with quality QBs like Luckman and Baugh, and then Otto Graham led the Browns to their dominance of the AAFC and then the NFL with his passing.
I think all that combined to make the NFL label 1946 as a cutoff year for pre-modern and modern since it wasn't a rule change that made offenses go to passing more.
Hutson played from 1935-1945.
In 1934, Before Hutson arrived, Green Bay already had the #1 passing offense in the league via QB Arnie Herber. They remaining the leagues #1 passing attack from 1935-1937.
In 1938, Sammy Baugh and the Redskins were #1 and the Packers were #2.
In 1939, Sid Luckman and the Bears were #1, the Packers #2.
1940, the Redskins were back to #1, the Eagles #2 and the Packers 3rd.
1941, Bears #1 Packers #2.
1942, Hutson's greatest season the Packers were back to #1 with 2407 yards passing. The league average was 1360, but the Bears and Redskins were 2nd and 3rd and not too far off from the Packers.
1943, Bears were back to #1 and Packers #2
1944, Packers fell to 4th. Redskins, Bears, and Lions were all better.
1945, The Packers were down to 5th in passing offense while the Bears (Luckman) and the Redskins (Baugh) continued to dominate.
IMO, it was Slingin Sammy Baugh who really brought the passing game into prominence. By 1947 Baugh was setting league passing records throwing for over 2900 yards and 25 TDs...Shattering Sid Luckmans record of 2,194 yards from 1943...As great as I think Hutson was, its really hard for me to credit a receiver as the leader of the passing revolution. He was on the cutting edge, and most certainly led to a new era of route running that before him, receivers weren't doing. His 1942 season, over a 16 game schedule would have worked out to 108 catches, 1,761 yards and 25 TDs in 1942!!!
Amazing receiver, right there with Jerry Rice, and was definitely one of the pieces to the passing game puzzle, but he was not the driving force to the league wide change in philosophy.
Just my opinion of course,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't think that there is anything close to a correct way to adjust for different circumstances as there is in baseball. Yes, old-time running backs had much smaller defensive players facing them, but they also had much smaller offensive linemen blocking in front of them. More importantly, baseball is an individual game, played by 9 people wearing the same uniform but otherwise almost entirely unaffected by anything their teammates do. Football is a team game - if you are a running back on a team with no passing game you will get stopped for no gain many, many times; if you have a lousy offensive line you will not break as many big runs as a back with a great line. I watched them both play many times, and I will tell you that I thought Earl Campbell was much better than Emmitt Smith. Put the Cowboys offensive line and receivers on the Oilers when Campbell played and (1) Campbell's career lasts much longer and (2) he would be listed in the top 3 on that list. >>
I agree...The worst part is the Earl Campbell didn't even MAKE ESPN's top 10 list...Eric Dickerson and LaDanian Tomlinson were/are great backs, but I'm sorry Earl Campbell was easily better..The thing that puts Emmitt Smith higher on MY list was his consistency over such a long period...If you needed 3 yards he would get it...He had quite a few different blockers during his years, but even when there wasn't a hole, he could find a crease and hit it...He didn't hesitate north and south..He didn't blow blitz pickups and seemed to always give Aikman a nice outlet to throw to if he got in trouble or if coverage was good...
If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME during their prime, my list would look like this:
1- Gale Sayers
2- Jim Brown
3- Earl Campbell
4- Barry Sanders
5- OJ Simpson
6- Walter Payton
7- Marshall Faulk
8- Adrian Peterson
9- LaDanian Tomlinson
10- Emmitt Smith
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME during their prime, my list would look like this:
1- Gale Sayers
2- Jim Brown
3- Earl Campbell
4- Barry Sanders
5- OJ Simpson
6- Walter Payton
7- Marshall Faulk
8- Adrian Peterson
9- LaDanian Tomlinson
10- Emmitt Smith >>
Jason I am quite offended at your list
If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME THAT I WANTED TO WIN AND COULD SCORE TD'S during their prime, my list would look
like this:
1- Emmitt Smith
2-10 Does it really matter?
Thank you, drive thru
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
Jason I am quite offended at your list
If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME THAT I WANTED TO WIN AND COULD SCORE TD'S during their prime, my list would look
like this:
1- Emmitt Smith
2-10 Does it really matter?
Thank you, drive thru
LOL..Well my aplogies to you and Emmitt...He's one of my favorites as well, but much of his positives in my eyes come from his consistency and durability rather than game breaking abilities. Don't get me wrong, Emmitt could break one every now and again, but the other guys I put above him in the "If I had him for ONE GAME" were virtually unstoppable at times. If you watch Gale Sayers at his best and then watch Emmitt, there is no comparison as to what each could do with the ball in their hands..At the same time, Sayers wasn't consistently good on almost every down like Emmitt was..He also got injured while Emmitt avoided contact so well that he rarely took crushing blows..And when he was hurt, he still played...But he can't match what Sayers or Earl or even last years Adrian Peterson could do in a ONE GAME setting. Those guys could single handedly take over a game...
Just my opinion of course...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME during their prime, my list would look like this:
1- Gale Sayers
2- Jim Brown
3- Earl Campbell
4- Barry Sanders
5- OJ Simpson
6- Walter Payton
7- Marshall Faulk
8- Adrian Peterson
9- LaDanian Tomlinson
10- Emmitt Smith >>
Jason I am quite offended at your list
If I were ranking RBs based strictly on who I would want for ONE GAME THAT I WANTED TO WIN AND COULD SCORE TD'S during their prime, my list would look
like this:
1- Emmitt Smith
2-10 Does it really matter?
Thank you, drive thru
I lost all respect for Emmitt Smith when he prostituted himself by being on Dancing With The Stars.
<< <i>8- Adrian Peterson >>
Jumping the gun on this one a little bit? He's not even close to being in his prime. Suprised to see him on your list..
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>8- Adrian Peterson >>
Jumping the gun on this one a little bit? He's not even close to being in his prime. Suprised to see him on your list.. >>
As an "If I had to pick a guy for ONE GAME"..What I saw from Peterson at times last year was some of the best combination power, speed and elusiveness I have seen in a LONG time..It is what Jim Brown did for a 9 year period..
I agree, he's not even in his prime yet..If he can stay healthy, and gets BETTER than he was last year...He could easily end up on my top 10 ALL-TIME list..Of course, we are talking 10 years or so down the line before we can make that determination. But for ONE GAME, I've watched years worth of football game film and his performances were among some of the finest I have witnessed.
I'd be shocked if you could name 9 better that you'd rather have for one game..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>...But he can't match what Sayers or Earl or even last years Adrian Peterson could do in a ONE GAME setting. Those guys could single handedly take over a game... >>
Emmitt not only took over one game he took over many. A few that come to mind: (I dug up alot of this info on the puter. I remembered the games but needed to find the stats and such)
1993 Monday Night Football against the Eagles at Veterans Stadium. Ask SteveK or any other Eagle fan, they remember what happened
237 yards rushing in a game where both teams had to run due to a monsoon they were playing in. He established a new club record with 237 yards rushing on 30 carries and posted the highest rushing total in the NFL in 1993. That day he tied Jim Brown for the 6th best single game performance in NFL history. It was also the highest single game rushing total since Walter Payton ran for 275 against the Vikings in 1977. In addition he finished off the game with a 62 yard td run
1993 regular-season finale against the New York Giants, the Cowboys had the NFC East title, a bye week, home-field advantage throughout the playoffs, and a third consecutive rushing title for Smith on the line. The Cowboys rode Smith that game, betting on his heart against the Giants defense
Forty-two touches and 229 total yards later, Smith was stretched out in the Giants Stadium training room, writhing in pain. Despite playing more than half the game with a separated right shoulder, Smith led the Cowboys to a 16-13 overtime win and earned his rightful place in NFL lore.
"It was just all guts," says NFL analyst John Madden, who called that game. "It was Emmitt just taking over. Sometimes we throw `great' around too much. We throw `warrior' around too much, but in that game against the Giants, Emmitt Smith was a true warrior. You talk about emptying your tank, leaving everything on the field. I'll guarantee you in that game, Emmitt Smith emptied his tank and left everything on the field."
*Not only did he take over the game, he did it with ONE arm. How many times did Barry, Jim or Walter do that?
Superbowl XXVIII:
Trailing 13-6 at halftime, Dallas tied the score on a James Washington fumble return. Then they turned the ball over to Smith, and he took it from there. Nineteen of his 30 carries came in the second half, as did both his touchdowns.
His first score, which gave Dallas the lead for good, came after an 8-play, 64-yard drive in which Smith carried the ball seven times. Buffalo knew he was going to get the ball and they still could not stop him! His 15-yard run capped off the drive. In the fourth quarter, he put the game on ice with a 1-yard touchdown run on fourth-and-goal.
Here is an article I found that sums up the total lack of respect he gets when compared to the other great RB's of the NFL
Emmitt Smith: The game's greatest
Erwin McIntosh III
Issue date: 2/7/05
Emmitt Smith is the most underrated running back in the history of the NFL.
For a running back to have done what he did during his playing days and not be regarded as the best ever is a catastrophic mistake.
Smith was deceptively fast and surprisingly strong for his size. At 5-foot-10 and 216 pounds, Smith not only broke tackles, he blocked well, too.
Pepper Johnson, a great linebacker from the New York Giants, remembered Smith as a blocker. "I remember when he picked me up on a blitz, and when he hit me, he was like 'shocked you with that one didn't I?'"
In an ESPN.com profile, Hugh Douglas of the Philadelphia Eagles remembers Smith as a runner. "I remember we played against him in a Monday Night game the first year I played in Philadelphia. I tried to tackle him with one arm on a lead option; he almost tore my arm off. I tried to grab him; he kept running and almost tore my arm out of the socket. That was when everyone said he was slowing down."
Smith was not only consistent, but he was also tough. In a game against the New York Giants, Smith, "with a separated shoulder, gained 229 yards rushing in a crucial victory," according to ESPN.com.
Smith had great vision and rarely went out of bounds. To do the things he did and yet still have people say other backs were better is not giving this man his due credit. There are five categories to base how great a back is: competition, stats, championship victories and performance in big games.
First, let's look at competition. Who was better than Smith when he played? No one. Not even Barry Sanders. Barry couldn't run from people, nor could he run people over, yet Smith could. Smith led the NFL in rushing touchdowns three times.
He was NFL MVP during 1993 and that year also won the Super Bowl MVP by rushing for 130 yards and two touchdowns. He led the NFL in rushing yards from 1991 until 1993 and again during 1995.
Now that that's out of the way, Smith's stats are off the charts. 18,355 rushing yards, 164 rushing touchdowns, and 78 games with 100-yards rushing are all records in the NFL.
The most amazing thing is how well he would catch the ball out of the backfield. He caught 515 passes for 3,224 yards receiving and 11 touchdowns. Only Jerry Rice has more total touchdowns, and he has played longer. Based on stats alone, Smith should be regarded not only as the best running back ever, but he should be looked at as one of the best football players ever.
Smith anchored three Super Bowl teams in a four-year span, winning the MVP award in one. When it comes to performance in big games, to gain 229 yards period is a significant feat by itself, but to do it with a separated shoulder for playoff implications is amazing. Smith did what he had to do when called upon. He dominated in the post season.
He could catch, run, block, had great vision, stepped up in big games and, above all, did it for 15 years.
At a position that requires receiving so much punishment, Smith was dependable. He is the best running back of all time and there is no doubt of that.
I can go on and on with countless gams he took over but really don't want to type anymore. Plus I'm hungry
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
He's still 5th on my all-time greatest list and 10th on my "If I could pick anyone for one game" list...ESPN ranked him 4th as well did the Sportsnation fan vote...Sorry to disappoint, and I completely understand the color of your glasses..lol
What's your take on this:
"In 1999, three years before becoming the game's all-time rushing yardage leader, he was ranked number 68 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Football Players."
This was AFTER his best seasons had already passed, and he was 68th of 100 greatest players of all-time..RBs ranked before him:
#1- Jim Brown
#8- Walter Payton
#12 Barry Sanders
#21 Gale Sayers
#26 OJ Simpson
#32 Marion Motley
#33 Earl Campbell
#35 Bronko Nagurski
#38 Earl Dickerson
#53 Tony Dorsett
Now what exactly did he do after 1999 to move up this list???Hmm..He stayed consistent and was durable enough to play long enough to break the all-time rushing yardage record. He wasn't dominant after 1999, all of his dominating performances you named were prior to 1999.
"Emmitt is a great player in a great system, a system that suits him perfectly. He is a hell of a warrior, and he fits the Dallas scheme better than anybody."
Jim Brown, 1997, TSN Pro Football Yearbook
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Now what exactly did he do after 1999 to move up this list???Hmm..He stayed consistent and was durable enough to play long enough to break the all-time rushing yardage record. He wasn't dominant after 1999, all of his dominating performances you named were prior to 1999. >>
What does this really have to do with anything? Who cares what he did or did not do after 1999.
The plain and simple truth is that Emmitt Smith was underrated out of college. He was given the tag of too small and too slow. Yeah, he was too small, he was hurt every week and sat out many games because of his small feeble frame. He was also too slow because those countless long td's runs and 18,000 + yards had everything to do with his o-line and not his quickness or ability.
I don't expect people that didn't watch his games to get it. Just like all the so called "experts" that make up these dumb lists. People that didn't see him perform really need to stop talking.
Barry Sanders was a quiter, Jim Brown retired too early. If you ask me both lacked the mental toughness to hang in there. So what it comes down to is 2 quiters ranked higher than Emmitt. Truely laughable at best
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
I don't expect people that didn't watch his games to get it. Just like all the so called "experts" that make up these dumb lists. People that didn't see him perform really need to stop talking.
Barry Sanders was a quiter, Jim Brown retired too early. If you ask me both lacked the mental toughness to hang in there. So what it comes down to is 2 quiters ranked higher than Emmitt. Truely laughable at best >>
I followed Emmitt Smith's career from High School. I am from Florida (Jacksonville) and my high school played Emmitt's (Pensacola Escambia) when I was a sophmore..He was High School player of the year in Florida, and then played for the Gators which I watched him in person quite a few games...With the exception of games I missed while serving overseas I've probably watched 75% of the snaps Emmitt took in his college/pro career. I never said, and would never say he is/was too small or too slow to be a dominant back. Because he was dominant at every level..But to say he was a better player than Jim Brown tells me you either never watched or had any interest in what Jim Brown did OR you are blinded by your Emmitt love..
Seriously though, Emmitt is arguably somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best back in the history of the game..I'm not sure why you would take exception to that ranking...Trying to put him at #1, because you are a fan is terribly misguided and really too bad. If you a true FOOTBALL fan and not just an Emmitt fan, I think the all around talent and dominance shown by Jim Brown and Walter Payton during their careers makes them the clearly better than Emmitt...It could be argued that Emmitt was better in some ways than Barry Sanders and Gale Sayers, but fans of those players have very valid arguments for them as well...
We are all allowed to have our favorites, but let's call them that, your #1 FAVORITE RB of all-time, but please don't disparage the 2 players in history that were unequivocally better than Emmitt Smith. It really makes you look like an Emmitt homer and not a very knowledgeable fan of the game...But homers are people too..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Oddly enough, Emmitt Smith is one of those rare athletes (like Rocky Marciano, Hank Aaron, and Wilt Chamberlain), who qualify as both the most overrated and underrated at his position. His detractors will say that he is overrated because he ran behind the best O-line in football. Yet, all other runners who ran behind the same line put up numbers that can only be considered mediocre at best. Guys like Derrick Lassic, Sherman Williams, Troy Hambrick, and Blair Thomas ran behind the same line and I doubt if any averaged as much as 4.0 yds per carry. Smith's supporters will say he is the best simply because he had the most yards and the most touchdowns, plus 4 NFL rushing titles. Let's face it. Barry Sanders would have obliterated the record if he chose to play longer, and who knows how many touchdowns Marcus Allen would have scored had Al Davis not sabotaged his final seasons as a Raider. Oh yes, and then there's Jim Brown who retired very early.
Smith gets my vote because I believe he was the most complete back. Not just good in all phases of the position, but great in all phases.
<< <i>JasP24,
I think almost all of your points have been spot on but I would take particular exception to:
<<Emmitt avoided contact so well that he rarely took crushing blows>>
I think Emmitt made plenty of contact, at his behest, with all to many defenders. That's why I personally think he is as durable as they come. He certainly didn't have that much speed nor all that much quickness, relative to the supreme RBs in the NFL. >>
I think maybe you read it wrong, or I just simply didn't state it well...I agree he took a lot of contact, and he was one of the best at breaking tackles..What I was trying to point out is that what he did NOT do was take really HARD crushing hits on a regular basis..He had a knack for slightly turning his body at the moment of impact in order to avoid the full brunt of the defenders hit..This helped him shed tackles, and made it hard for defenders to wrap him up...Even when he was going short yardage he would jump the pile or slip through the smallest crease rather than simply plow head first into oncoming traffic (ala Earl Campbell)...I believe this is one of the main reasons he stayed mostly healthy over his career, plus a little luck of course..lol
Make no bones about though, I've touted his consistency and durability throughout this thread..In fact, he's probably the 2nd most consistent and durable RB in the history of the game. Jim Brown of course would be #1 on that list as he never missed a single NFL game in his career. Emmitt was right there though...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anyone who suggests ANY modern back over Jim Brown needs to view some video of Brown playing. He was Earl Campbell AND Walter Payton AND Emmitt Smith all rolled into one. He could rush over you, run around you, and if the defender had a bead on him he could sidestep him and if he couldn't sidestep him, he'd lower his shoulder and lay the hit on the defender.
Jim Brown . . . Well . . . if you don't know that he's the greatest, then you just don't know...