PCGS has a $50,000 reward for anyone who can solve the ASE milk spotting problem.

fivecents

Time to don your lab coats boys and girls lets get to work and figure this one out.

I don't know about you, but $50,000 would really help improve my collection.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Time to don your lab coats boys and girls lets get to work and figure this one out.

I don't know about you, but $50,000 would really help improve my collection. >>



I predict some 'quality control MANAGER" working for the government will make fifty G's soon.

SUMORADA

Got a link ?

dorkkarl

what's the "problem"?

milkspotting happens. live w/ it.

K S

CoinHusker

If they are willing to offer $50,000 just think what they must be losing on their "grade guarantee" on these things.

PerryHall

<< <i>what's the "problem"?

milkspotting happens. live w/ it.

K S >>



What if it doesn't have to happen and can be prevented in some way? Do you like milk spots?

ProofCollection

I reckon a coat of clear lacquer would solve the poblem.

messydesk

Last I heard, HRH said that PCGS already spent at least this much trying to fix the problem. I assume NCS has been working at it as well and would just love HRH to hand over a check for 50 large.

ricko

At last... incentive... Cheers, RickO

Gemineye

Unless one can be there to visualy see the operation taking place it would be difficult to track down.The slab of metal into strip from the rollers etc. The rollers being cleaned before-hand as an example.Who knowns what the metal was in contact prior to being pressed into strip.There are many processes going on before the blanking is done.......
..there might be a cooling solution between the rollers....

guitarwes

my local dealer has figured out a way, but it kinda makes 'em look like '86 SAE's.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>At last... incentive... Cheers, RickO >>




I gotta hand it to you Rick. You hit my funnybone.

tmot99

I would think an ultrasonic bath with a rinse in high purity acetone would remove whatever it is that the mint leaves on them. I've never tried it and I don't collect them. I'm also not sure that PCGS wants to do the treatment either.

ILikeMercs

solve to prevent or solve to remove?

TwoSides2aCoin

In a previous thread, I said this :

"I still think if better care were taken in the rinsing/drying of the metal prior to "punching" the planchets, that this would not occur. It's a theory, but it's the only one I think will work. The drying of these strips need air and rotation. This is a layman's brain thinking."


I don't know how many remember Conder101, but he is as objective and technical a man as I've talked to behind the scenes. He responded with this :


The planchets are annealed, then burnished, washed and dried AFTER they are punched from the strip and edges upset. It is the rinsing and drying at this stage that is the problem, not the washing of the strip. (The annealing of the planchets caises a heavy oxide layer to form on them, that is why they have to be burnished afterwards and that burnishing basicly "removes" the existing surface so a washing problem from the strip would be removed.)

Thanks Conder101

Scavenger

As far as I know NGC and ANACS dont have the milk spotting problem, or at least not to the extent that PCGS does. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but isnt Newport Beach, CA geographically located between the Pacific Ocean and Newport Bay. The salt in the air is so thick you can smell it. When employees come in from outside it's on their clothes and in their hair so any special filtration systems or clean rooms are instantly contaminated.

hubird

solution? autoclave them.

13PacesEast

don't buy em and you won't have milk spots.

problem solved.

where my 50k?

57loaded

well all the top four have spot problems with ASE's, even OGP mint capsules...just look in my "bullion" tube.

something precipitates the appearance of the spotting.

start with the minting process, it's not the slabbing

2manycoins2fewfunds

<< <i>As far as I know NGC and ANACS dont have the milk spotting problem, or at least not to the extent that PCGS does. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but isnt Newport Beach, CA geographically located between the Pacific Ocean and Newport Bay. The salt in the air is so thick you can smell it. When employees come in from outside it's on their clothes and in their hair so any special filtration systems or clean rooms are instantly contaminated. >>




That is a very good point. It wouldn't be too hard for PCGS to buy 1000 ASE and run them through current grading processand location and then compare them to the same number of ASE run through same process at an alternative location say Palm Springs. That should answer the salt air question fairly quickly.

I've read way too many threads here of clean coins being submitted only to return with spots. I think the problem lies in part with PCGS and their location/process.

Russ

A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces BEFORE submitting solves the problem. I'd like my $50K in small bills, please.

Russ, NCNE

csw

A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces before ENCAPSULATING solves the problem.

Big bills, please.

dorkkarl

<< <i>

<< <i>what's the "problem"?

milkspotting happens. live w/ it.

K S >>



What if it doesn't have to happen and can be prevented in some way? Do you like milk spots? >>

i don't care about milkspots. we're talking about basically silver rounds.

the issue is people getting all worked up about "GRADE", has nothing really to do w/ milkspots.

K S

tradedollarnut

Stop slabbing bullion - problem solved.

oxy8890

<< <i>A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces BEFORE submitting solves the problem. I'd like my $50K in small bills, please.

Russ, NCNE >>



I thought Russ had this conversation with Ron Guth about a year ago on these boards and Ron said he was going back to his "lab" to check on this theory. I wonder what happened.

saintguru

Don't drink milk when you handle your coins??

Russ

<< <i><< A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces BEFORE submitting solves the problem. I'd like my $50K in small bills, please.

Russ, NCNE >>

I thought Russ had this conversation with Ron Guth about a year ago on these boards and Ron said he was going back to his "lab" to check on this theory. I wonder what happened. >>



You have an excellent memory.

Russ, NCNE

relicsncoins

The first step would be to take a milk spotted coin and remove a sample of the milk spot and run it through spectrum annalsys and determin the chemical makeup of the the milk spot. This should tell you what is milkspotting the coin and steer you in a direction toward solving it if it's solvable.

JJ

Newcomp103

Modern Crap!

COINB0Y

A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces BEFORE submitting solves the problem. I'd like my $50K in small bills, please.

What is the brand name of the dip you use, Russ?

Is it just acetone or an actual silver dip?

TIA!

LonerAnger

Maybe call Northwest Territory Mint and ask em how they strike their rounds?

Naaaah, too simple.

ProofCollection

<< <i>Stop slabbing bullion - problem solved. >>



The Reverse Proof ASE is not bullion...

ricko

Relicsncoins is correct.... as I have stated here at least a dozen times, a spectrum analysis or atomic absorption test will reveal the chemical components of the 'milkspot'... once known, the source will become obvious. The 'cure', if possible, may also be determined from said analysis... the 'cure' being the preventive action as well as a possible corrective action. Cheers, RickO

Fountainhead

I like to think PCGS has been working on the salt problem, I complained about it to HRH several years ago. No, this is something else.

homerunhall

This is a huge problem and were totally serious about the reward.

We've already spent close to that amount on scientific analysis, and the numerous people we've worked with are baffled.

Find a solution...and we'll write the $50k check in a heartbeat.

hrh

BECOKA

<< <i>what's the "problem"?

milkspotting happens. live w/ it.

K S >>



I stopped collecting this series because of this. I might start again if it were solved.

sneaky

UV sterilization before,


or sandpaper afterwards...........

Mike C

BECOKA

<< <i>This is a huge problem and were totally serious about the reward.

We've already spent close to that amount on scientific analysis, and the numerous people we've worked with are baffled.

Find a solution...and we'll write the $50k check in a heartbeat.

hrh >>



So what happened to the idea of just doing a quick dip in Acetone for each coin? Should not hurt the coin, although it adds a minute to the process it might be worth it.

Doogy

<< <i>Stop slabbing bullion - problem solved. >>



Bingo! buy 'em, put 'em in a roll, and throw 'em in your safe as a hedge against inflation; like they were intended to do

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>This is a huge problem and were totally serious about the reward.

We've already spent close to that amount on scientific analysis, and the numerous people we've worked with are baffled.

Find a solution...and we'll write the $50k check in a heartbeat.

hrh >>



What does the mint say about it? Why isn't it a problem with other silver coins? Offer to dip them as Russ says if the submitter doesn't want to do it themselves. For coins that have been dipped put a little symbol ala CAC on the insert to indicate that the coin has been dipped.

morgansforever

Appears that PCGS is done with buying back milked ASE's. I can't blame them.

I wonder how much "milking" has cost PCGS, bet it's staggering.

I'm sick of the problem myself, but I really like the design.

No more Eagles from the Slaughter House, until they can figure out how to rinse a coin.

You would think the resource rich R&D department at the Mint, could get the rinse right.

Seems like an elementary part of the process.

No milk yet, keeping my fingers crossed.


Edit to op: Why not use 90% silver planchets, 10%copper.

My Morgans don't milk. Just throwing it out there.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>what's the "problem"?

milkspotting happens. live w/ it.

K S >>



What if it doesn't have to happen and can be prevented in some way? Do you like milk spots? >>

i don't care about milkspots. we're talking about basically silver rounds.

the issue is people getting all worked up about "GRADE", has nothing really to do w/ milkspots.

K S >>



I do not agree with your assessment.

Specifically, these are NOT "Silver Rounds". These are US government issued ONE DOLLAR coins that many people collect. They are no more a Silver Round than a 40% Silver Clad Half Dollar or a 90% Silver Morgan!

Further more, milk spotting is as bad for silver as a carbon spot or worse yet corrosion on copper and it most certainly does affect grade. Appearance plays a big factor in a coins grade and given the fact that the milk spotting cannot be removed without damaging the coins says alot in terms of long term storage and future collectibility.

Milk spotting is not reserved just for SAE's as early Kennedy Proofs and some silver IKE's get em too. Its just that Silver Eagles get all the attention.

<End of Rant>

Fountainhead

Mr. Hall, I'm toying with this hypothesis: the sound waves from the sonic sealing process are interacting with the coin surface to create metastable nodes where contaminants - solid, liquid, and gaseous - get concentrated. Gases heavier than air like evaporated salt water or vaporized lubricant or and solid particles of whatever the Mint leaves on the coin will concentrate in these nodes naturally.

Sound waves can actually lift up and levitate solids and liquids in mid-air while doing this - I recall NASA actually built special equipment to demonstrate it. The node of contamination may then stick to a nearby surface and even change state - that is, precipitate from a gaseous node or microscopic drop to a solid particle. Precipitation is more likely to take place once energy is removed from the system - that is, after the sonic sealer has been turned off.

If this is the case there are a few solutions to the problem. If a cleaner environment is not possible - and it may not be if the contamination is something on the coin and the sealing process merely concentrates it into "milk drops" - I would try altering the frequency and intensity of the sonic applicator:

1) A longer application at lower intensity might avoid levitating contaminants.
2) A shorter application at higher intensity might not give the nodes time to form.
3) Choosing a different frequency to seal the slabs would alter where nodes form above the coin, and maybe eliminate the problem altogether.

fastrudy

The salt air? Salt doesn't vaporize very readily. Whenever people come to the ocean and say, "Smell that salt air!", I have to bite my tongue. Salt has no smell. The only time you get salt deposited on a surface is when salt water hits the surface and then the water evaporates. Wind borne salt spray will do this, but certainly not the air near a body of salt water. The characteristic smell of a beach or the ocean is from gases emitted by beach organisms, not from salt. One has to experiment on a non-milk-spotted ASE to see if exposure to salt induces milk spots. I don't believe that experiment has been performed yet.
Other questions that need to be addressed:
1. Will all ASE's eventually get milk spots?
2. If no, which ones will?
3. Why?

I would look with a critical eye at the minting process. BTW, I miss Conder 101 and his wisdom.

BECOKA

Note this is not just on the eagles. I see it on other silver coins like the silver proof sets and even a 1964 dime.

Deadhorse

OK, I've seen them on both Proof and Business strikes on Silver Eagles.

I've only seen them on proofs when it comes to 90% coinage.

Not sure what that means, but I suppose it narrows it down some.

Anybody ever see them on any other coins?

Deadhorse

<< <i>Note this is not just on the eagles. I see it on other silver coins like the silver proof sets and even a 1964 dime. >>



A non-proof '64 dime?

Hmm, the plot thickens.

57loaded

<< <i>A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces BEFORE submitting solves the problem. I'd like my $50K in small bills, please.

Russ, NCNE >>



that would obviously kill any sealed first strike submissions or special 20th anniv labeling (after the 30day window)

Fountainhead

Fastrudy: Correct. However, sound waves can lift and suspend sea salt particles into nodes whcih can then mix with node-concentrated water vapor. I was trying to keep the explanation as short as possible.

Fountainhead

The test for sea salt should be pretty simple: an SEM-XRD scan of a milk spot for iodine.

tradedollarnut

Specifically, these are NOT "Silver Rounds". These are US government issued ONE DOLLAR coins that many people collect. They are no more a Silver Round than a 40% Silver Clad Half Dollar or a 90% Silver Morgan!