<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
Again, people have coins that this happens to that ARE NOT slabbed. It may get worse, or more of them, when slabbed but the slab is not the issue from what it sounds like.
I don't do much with ASE's, but have heard that NGC coins don't spot as often. Check out what differences there are between your slab composition and theirs, and see what the difference is.
I've seen a number of green label PCI slabbed ASE's with absolutely no spots, maybe you should model your plastic after theirs.
<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
Again, people have coins that this happens to that ARE NOT slabbed. It may get worse, or more of them, when slabbed but the slab is not the issue from what it sounds like. >>
Does it ever happen to raw coins? Or does it happen to coins in Mint plastic? It might be something in the Mint's plastic too
I'd bet there gonna be pretty festive looking in a couple months............ >>
Yep. I sandwiched them together, milkspotted side out and paperwrapped like endrolls. Not to deceive but because I like that effect. Both affected sides will look like endroll toners and the other sides will be lustrous white with some migrating rim toning hopefully.
Okay, Mr. HRH, here is an explanation for the milk spot problem.
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
<< <i>Mr. Hall, I'm toying with this hypothesis: the sound waves from the sonic sealing process are interacting with the coin surface to create metastable nodes where contaminants - solid, liquid, and gaseous - get concentrated. Gases heavier than air like evaporated salt water or vaporized lubricant or and solid particles of whatever the Mint leaves on the coin will concentrate in these nodes naturally.
Sound waves can actually lift up and levitate solids and liquids in mid-air while doing this - I recall NASA actually built special equipment to demonstrate it. The node of contamination may then stick to a nearby surface and even change state - that is, precipitate from a gaseous node or microscopic drop to a solid particle. Precipitation is more likely to take place once energy is removed from the system - that is, after the sonic sealer has been turned off.
If this is the case there are a few solutions to the problem. If a cleaner environment is not possible - and it may not be if the contamination is something on the coin and the sealing process merely concentrates it into "milk drops" - I would try altering the frequency and intensity of the sonic applicator:
1) A longer application at lower intensity might avoid levitating contaminants. 2) A shorter application at higher intensity might not give the nodes time to form. 3) Choosing a different frequency to seal the slabs would alter where nodes form above the coin, and maybe eliminate the problem altogether. >>
I have no idea what you said----but it sounds awfully good.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
<< <i>Okay, Mr. HRH, here is an explanation for the milk spot problem.
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
Regards, PLE >>
I'm pretty sure if they wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars on this problem they've investigated this obvious possibility, and I doubt it is the culprit.
The tpg's oughta douse um in rubbin alcohol. set um on fire........then whizz the hell outta um and slab um..........then call it a day ! every 15th one is a 70 period!
I'm just trying to get to 1000 posts so I can give something away...........
<< <i>This is a huge problem and were totally serious about the reward.
We've already spent close to that amount on scientific analysis, and the numerous people we've worked with are baffled.
Find a solution...and we'll write the $50k check in a heartbeat.
hrh >>
Is there a link with more info ? If I found a solution, how do I submit it ? And are you looking for the cause of the milk spots, or the solution to preventing them ?
<< <i>Okay, Mr. HRH, here is an explanation for the milk spot problem.
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
<< <i>good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! & again! & keep dipping till the cows come home & you can get your milk the way you want it!
GOOD GRIEF!!!
& yes, they are freaking silver rounds. i don't care if the federal gov't made them, they are shiny little silver disks that look exactly the same from 1 to the next.
K S >>
And, rants like this, and your own projections to everyone to think the way you do, are why your posts mean so little to most everyone here. At one time, a few years ago, I remember a few of your posts may have had a reasonable point. However, lately, you want people to collect the way you want, think the way you want, and you belittle things just because of your own beliefs.
If there is a denomination, backed by the US Govt, on them, they aren't "silver rounds". They may be NCLT, but they aren't silver rounds. If you don't want to collect them, fine. If you don't think people collecting them are true collectors, or smart, then that is fine.
It's just too bad you show how small-minded you are and continue to read threads that you know don't interest you other than to be negative about it. Makes me wonder...is "FC" your alt? >>
Yes, I am serious. I suspect that the encapsulation process basically turns the slab into a "petry dish" and that the "milk spots" are, in effect, cultures from the moisture spots. I similarly think that the milk spots on coins from the mint are caused by the coins with similar moisture drops placed in capsules (or boxes) where there is limited air circulation
One obvious point no one has made is that the spots are round or nearly so suggesting that whatever is there ended up there thru some contact with liquid which then evaporated. The contaminant I would guess at a later time is activated by moisture or heat thereby reacting with the silver surface. I'd say it all goes back to the washing proces wherein the planchets are cleaned/etched or whatever. Either there is a contaminant in the water that is not being looked for and removed or there is something like Jet Dry added to the water to facilitate water removal.
this problem cannot be fixed by PCGS. the mint has to correct this. somewhere in the process they are being cleaned and dried. i do electroplating and we go thru a drying process and if any of the "watershedding" or hot water rinses are slightly dirty the parts WILL spot. the clad/gold/plat coinage the mint pumps out is less reactive and has no problems. its all in the rinsing.....
2sides to a coin said it, QC at the mint must know.
the spots are a residue from dirty rinse water and improper drying. only the mint can correct this.
Not sure if this helps, but you can see the milk spots more easily under the light of an LED flashlight. This is especially the case for uncirculated eagles and on the frosted devices of proof eagles.
<< <i>Whenever people come to the ocean and say, "Smell that salt air!", I have to bite my tongue. ... The characteristic smell of a beach or the ocean is from gases emitted by beach organisms, not from salt. >>
"Mmm.. smell that dimethyl sulfide bacteria fart air!" >>
As I posted here once before, I'd guess the reason that spotting of ASEs is more prevalent is that there are a ton more of them struck compared to other silver coins and for some reason due to the sheer volume being struck production quality gets sacrificed, either intentionally or otherwise. I remember years ago when GM had a problem with paint sticking to the metallic surfaces of car bodies during to or prior to assembly. My employer's founder was able to trace it back to their water purification system which was releasing large amounts of silica into the rinse wter. Perhaps something similar is happening here.
As others have stated its not likely that PCGS can really fix the problem short of screening the coins via some special light source and then dipping those which may spot. I know I'd definitely be dipping ANYTHING that was gonna get a 70. If it was known what the composition of the spot is i.e. some type of silver compound its likely they could be removed tho probably not cost effective.
<< <i><< good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! & again! & keep dipping till the cows come home & you can get your milk the way you want it!
GOOD GRIEF!!!
& yes, they are freaking silver rounds. i don't care if the federal gov't made them, they are shiny little silver disks that look exactly the same from 1 to the next.
K S >>
And, rants like this, and your own projections to everyone to think the way you do, are why your posts mean so little to most everyone here. At one time, a few years ago, I remember a few of your posts may have had a reasonable point. However, lately, you want people to collect the way you want, think the way you want, and you belittle things just because of your own beliefs.
If there is a denomination, backed by the US Govt, on them, they aren't "silver rounds". They may be NCLT, but they aren't silver rounds. If you don't want to collect them, fine. If you don't think people collecting them are true collectors, or smart, then that is fine.
It's just too bad you show how small-minded you are and continue to read threads that you know don't interest you other than to be negative about it. Makes me wonder...is "FC" your alt? >>
i don't care if the pope backs 'em up w/ his direct connection the almighty, they are FREAKING SILVER BULLION
<< <i><< good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! >>
You're showing your ignorance, Karl. Once milk spots form, they are permanent - they cannot be dipped off.
Russ, NCNE >>
duh, uh, i KNOW that russ. dip the coins BEFORE the spots appear. i said to dip them if the spots START coming back.
"ignorance" is assuming you can't predict that the milkspots will appear.
this is totally not a new problem w/ silver rounds whatsoever. been around since the days of proof walkers & before.
<< <i>Its easy to be glib or makes jokes about others collecting habits, or choice of purchases if you are not the one suffering the consequences of something like this. We are not all "experts" and we all started somewhere. If someone chooses to start by collecting modern stuff, maybe they gradually move towards the classics as their knowledge and confidence builds. That's how it was with me. It seems as there is an effort to belittle folks for collecting modern coins to the point of running them out of the hobby. It just seems a little short-sighted to me >>
"collecting moderns" is not the point at all. the point is "collecting moderns in slabs". that is what's stupid. there is no reason whatsoever to spend $25 to slab a $15 silver round (which is what those ase's cost a few years ago).
w/out question, if you choose to collect those NOT IN PLA$TIC, you will easily be able to maintain a totally spot-free collection of silver rounds.
i still say it originates at the mint...................leave mr. hall alone! we should be screaming at mr. moy!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>i still say it originates at the mint...................leave mr. hall alone! we should be screaming at mr. moy! >>
Mr Hall is the one who offered the reward and has also decided to take responsibilty for some of the financial aspects via pcgs guarantee. I doubt that Mr. Moy gives a chit.
<< <i>During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. >>
It's just too bad you show how small-minded you are and continue to read threads that you know don't interest you other than to be negative about it. Makes me wonder...is "FC" your alt?
interestingly enough i agree with dorkkarl. he makes more sense then most here in every post.
his delivery is designed to sock you in the head to wake you up but i am thinking he is realizing it is a waste of time with most here.
and yes, they are just bullion rounds. coins is just shorter to type.
keep up the good work dorkkarl. why people want to slab a bullion round is beyond me. most people are suckers for advertising/marketing/ and the lemming type thinking. i battle constantly with my gf to wake her up to this problem and how it is designed to shape the way she thinks.
bochiman always goes on and on about people he dislikes and disagrees with. he could just ignore us, but nope ;-)
Do other pure silver coins spot as much? For example slab up a test batch of maple leafs and others at the same time as some eagles. Place all in the same controlled but varied setting environment... ie.. temp, humidity etc. Is the problem worse on one group versus another. If so the mint would look to be the problem.
If they all spot then I'd look to the process and materials of slabbing. Has the composition of the slabs or gaskets (I don't know what they're called) changed?
Russ... I'm not sure how you can rule out the coughing, sneezing, etc... whether at the mint or at the TPG.
Maybe the graders should wear hairnets...
Are the coins blown off by compressed air? If so maybe the dryer on the system isn't functioning properly. I don't know for sure but I'd think that if the mint washes during the manufacturing process they likely blow dry the coins. If the air dryer is not working properly there can be moisture in the blown air.
Just some thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know "it's bullion". But if all you are going to add to this thread are "pot-shots" then "gitalife"™
<< <i>Russ... I'm not sure how you can rule out the coughing, sneezing, etc... whether at the mint or at the TPG. >>
I can rule it out at the TPG. If that were the cause, then I could not have solved the problem by stabilizing the surfaces with a quick dip before submission.
Dorkkarl, FC.....Do you two consider all the stamped gold assay bars from the 1800's just bullion also? Or do they have numismatic value and substance?
<< <i>what do you consider them? spending money? pocket change? >>
Bullion that's worth a whole lot more than melt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Unlike you, I consider them much, much more than mere bullion.
how so?
getting off topic in this post but i like my precious ;o)
miners stood in a stream picking out gold from the rock/ dug in an old stream bed to the bedrock/sluiced/panned/etc.. until they had a big pan full of gold.
took it to one of 5? major firms in cali: Blake and Company, Kellogg & Humbert, Justh and Hunter Harris, Marchand & Company, Henry Henstch...
melted, poured, tested and then stamped.
besides being very very historical and cool how do you consider them more then mere bullion?
I am an occasional collector of ASE but the topic seemed interesting enough. I thought I might throw out a couple of ideas on this. Not being familiar with the milk spotting, hopefully you can steer me where I am wrong.
When we stamp metals the following is considered: impurities that are embedded into the desired surface and impurities that can be added during the stamping process. Impurities that are embedded into the surface usually show roll marks. If the coins do not have any of these visible blemishes before being put into the cases then that can probably be thrown out. Impurities that can be added during the stamping process can be metallic (particles in the process) or organic (usually from the stamping lubricant). Again, if no metallic impurities are found before hand then they most likely are not being stamped in. Organic lubricant can cause a variety of issues. Depending on the type of lubricant it can be slightly acidic or basic. Both of which, given extended contact with silver, will form a reaction product. Another problem with the lubricant is anions that be in the oil such as chloride and fluorine. Chloride is extremely bad as it will willingly form silver chloride.
A couple of tests that could be done to determine if either of these is a problem is to examine the spots with SEM/EDS (Scanning electron microscopy) and FTIR (Fourier Transform Infrared) spectroscopy. SEM/EDS will help identify the composition of the milky spot. Once you know the composition it takes a lot of the guessing out of it. FTIR, if organic, will give a fingerprint of what the material is. This can help identify if it is the stamping lubricant or some oil that is getting on the surface.
Another fun one that we experience is when dealing with injection molding of plastics. Stability of plasticizer and UV inhibitor agents can become an issue. If they are too old or have experienced temperature conditions outside of their tolerance they can leach to the surface of the part, in this case right onto the coin. Another thing sometimes used is mold release agents, usually containing silicone. These are evil because they are a pain to remove due to solubility constraints. Even acetone will not remove these. They also often look cloudy when they begin to break down.
If I had some of the coins that had milky spots, access to the equipment and time to do it I think I would do the following:
1. Photograph the entire surface of the coin in the hold under high magnification. This is to insure that the location of the spots are recorded for future purposes.
2. Examine the surface of the spots by: SEM/EDS, Auger - These are surface analysis tools that with take high resolution pictures of the surface and identify elemental compound in the milky area. The SEM will allow you to understand if it is a corrosion problem eating into the coin, an adherent layer on the coin or a growth of oxide growing out of the coin. Auger will let you determine the chemical composition of the milky substance as a function of depth. Doing this will tell you if there is chloride, iodide, silicon, oxide, etc.
3. Examine the holder in the area where the milky spots is on the coin. Use high magnification to see if there are any microscopic holes in these areas. Holes will let in moisture at slow rates and could cause the problem. Analyze the surface of the holder with FTIR to understand if there is any adherent organic liquid (oil, plasticizer, UV stabilizer).
Once you understand the composition of the material is you can eliminate a lot of things. It will also help you find where in the process it could be coming from.
Couple of questions that could also help on this: What is the rate of failure? - 1%, 10% etc. Rate can help locate it in the process
What is the time to failure? days, weeks, months years etc. Timing can indicate failure mechanism
What surface are is showing up on? silver, nickel, copper, gold etc Substrate can indicate conditions. Nickel is pretty resistant to corrosion so if it is showing up on there then it is a very aggressive contaminant or is not a corrosion product.
Are there storage conditions that can make it worse? If you store it at high temperature does it show up faster? If you storage at high humidity does it grow larger? I know it would be a waste but if you lose a few coins at these elevated temperatures to find the answer it would be worth it. If increased temperature accelerates it then a corrosion product is likely. If high humidity makes it grow more maybe it is a greater moisture transmission through the holder.
What is the location of the defect? Is it always on the same side of the coin? Is it always on the same portion of the holder? Same side of the coin could indicate the storage. Portion of the holder could indicate a process related issue.
I am probably missing a few things and my lack of familiarity with some of the process steps are most likely making me miss something. Twenty or so of these coins and time down at a local university would help answer a lot of these questions.
Or maybe I am completely off. This is just some of the logic that I would use to help identify the root cause. Open to comments or questions on the logic or the process. Feel free to email me.
I said to autoclave them in partial jest because I, too, believe there is some microbiological-type process going on here. Maybe not biological, but the spots sure remind me of stuff we cultured in microbiology classes I've been in. That was so long ago...
I wish I could find where I suggested the micro- slant to this mess. It was a few months ago, wasn't it? I should be doing the study, as I have a decent micro- lab just across the bay from me a couple of miles away at my old university.
Who was it that had the macro- pictures of the small specks on an ASE? That is quite interesting and would be a great place to begin additional study as well. There sure could be some type of oily residue causing this problem, very easily. There's a contamination source somewhere.
Unfortunately/fortunately, I only have spots on one MS ASE I bought off the 'bay for somebody, ...that they never got!
It would be interesting to see the spot incidence for:
1960s proofs in OGP ASEs stored in OGP capsules ASEs stored in OGP capsules in FoodSaver bags ASEs stored in OGP tubes ASEs stored in PCGS holders ASEs stored in NGC holders ASEs stored in ANACS holders ASEs stored in PCI holders ASEs stored in ??? in humid conditions ASEs stored in ??? in dry conditions ....
There are anecdotal stories of spots in some situations and not other situations but is there any clear view on the level of the issue across different scenarios? Do we know if one or a few areas are affected at higher rates?
If this happens at a very low rate for OGP coins but at higher rates for TPG holdered coins, would the US Mint necessarily consider it a high priority issue?
Well first off does the mint make their own planchets or are they contracted out? I would, if possible be analyzing any rinse water/solutions as this would narrow down the list of possibilities since if it aint in the water it won't be on the coin.
Comments
Change the plastic composition of the slab.
<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
Again, people have coins that this happens to that ARE NOT slabbed. It may get worse, or more of them, when slabbed but the slab is not the issue from what it sounds like.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I've seen a number of green label PCI slabbed ASE's with absolutely no spots, maybe you should model your plastic after theirs.
idk, food for thought
<< <i>
<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
Again, people have coins that this happens to that ARE NOT slabbed. It may get worse, or more of them, when slabbed but the slab is not the issue from what it sounds like. >>
Does it ever happen to raw coins? Or does it happen to coins in Mint plastic? It might be something in the Mint's plastic too
<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
I had a couple '95 ASEs spot in those Mint tubes. They are presently on my window sill wrapped in high-sulfur phonebook page paper.
NSDR - Life Member
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<< <i>
<< <i>Is there an chemical in the composition of the slab reactant to silver?
Change the plastic composition of the slab. >>
I had a couple '95 ASEs spot in those Mint tubes. They are presently on my window sill wrapped in high-sulfur phonebook page paper. >>
Perhaps something in the Mint Tube plastic?
I'd bet there gonna be pretty festive looking in a couple months............
<< <i>Coxe
I'd bet there gonna be pretty festive looking in a couple months............ >>
Yep. I sandwiched them together, milkspotted side out and paperwrapped like endrolls. Not to deceive but because I like that effect. Both affected sides will look like endroll toners and the other sides will be lustrous white with some migrating rim toning hopefully.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
Regards,
PLE
I got my 2006 ASE RP direct from the mint with milk spots.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>HMMMMMM, those milkspots sure DO look like petri dish cultures. >>
Hehe...just when people stopped worrying about getting diseases from incuse Indian gold.........
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Mr. Hall, I'm toying with this hypothesis: the sound waves from the sonic sealing process are interacting with the coin surface to create metastable nodes where contaminants - solid, liquid, and gaseous - get concentrated. Gases heavier than air like evaporated salt water or vaporized lubricant or and solid particles of whatever the Mint leaves on the coin will concentrate in these nodes naturally.
Sound waves can actually lift up and levitate solids and liquids in mid-air while doing this - I recall NASA actually built special equipment to demonstrate it. The node of contamination may then stick to a nearby surface and even change state - that is, precipitate from a gaseous node or microscopic drop to a solid particle. Precipitation is more likely to take place once energy is removed from the system - that is, after the sonic sealer has been turned off.
If this is the case there are a few solutions to the problem. If a cleaner environment is not possible - and it may not be if the contamination is something on the coin and the sealing process merely concentrates it into "milk drops" - I would try altering the frequency and intensity of the sonic applicator:
1) A longer application at lower intensity might avoid levitating contaminants.
2) A shorter application at higher intensity might not give the nodes time to form.
3) Choosing a different frequency to seal the slabs would alter where nodes form above the coin, and maybe eliminate the problem altogether. >>
I have no idea what you said----but it sounds awfully good.
<< <i>Okay, Mr. HRH, here is an explanation for the milk spot problem.
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
Regards,
PLE >>
I'm pretty sure if they wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars on this problem they've investigated this obvious possibility, and I doubt it is the culprit.
I'm just trying to get to 1000 posts so I can give something away...........
<< <i>This is a huge problem and were totally serious about the reward.
We've already spent close to that amount on scientific analysis, and the numerous people we've worked with are baffled.
Find a solution...and we'll write the $50k check in a heartbeat.
hrh >>
Is there a link with more info ?
If I found a solution, how do I submit it ?
And are you looking for the cause of the milk spots,
or the solution to preventing them ?
<< <i>Okay, Mr. HRH, here is an explanation for the milk spot problem.
During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. The fluid could also come from graders simply talking while looking at a coin. When the coin is sealed in plastic, the drops of moisture are unable to rapidly evaporate. They are sealed with the coin. Since the plastic is not air-tight, some airborne contaminants interact with the moisture and, eventually, cause the appearance of spots on Silver.
This same process causes the milk spots found on silver coins within the mint's plastic capsules. You see fewer spots in mint capsules, however, because, they are not handled as much as coins during the grading process. During the grading process more than one person touches the coin (and, possibly, breathes on it).
If my hypothesis is correct, here is how you can correct the problem: Air Dry the coins prior to encapsulation. In other words, simply use high pressure air to make sure that there is no moisture on the coin before you seal it in plastic. Additionally, you might consider asking that the graders (and other handlers) wear surgical masks while working with the coins.
Here is how you can test this theory. Have a number of people cough on a bunch of silver coins, encapsulate them, and wait a few weeks/months. (It might help if somebody has a cold).
Regards,
PLE >>
you can't be serious
<< <i>
<< <i>good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! & again! & keep dipping till the cows come home & you can get your milk the way you want it!
GOOD GRIEF!!!
& yes, they are freaking silver rounds. i don't care if the federal gov't made them, they are shiny little silver disks that look exactly the same from 1 to the next.
K S >>
And, rants like this, and your own projections to everyone to think the way you do, are why your posts mean so little to most everyone here.
At one time, a few years ago, I remember a few of your posts may have had a reasonable point. However, lately, you want people to collect the way you want, think the way you want, and you belittle things just because of your own beliefs.
If there is a denomination, backed by the US Govt, on them, they aren't "silver rounds". They may be NCLT, but they aren't silver rounds.
If you don't want to collect them, fine. If you don't think people collecting them are true collectors, or smart, then that is fine.
It's just too bad you show how small-minded you are and continue to read threads that you know don't interest you other than to be negative about it.
Makes me wonder...is "FC" your alt?
Hence the dork komponent to his handle.
<< <i>Time to don your lab coats boys and girls lets get to work and figure this one out.
I don't know about you, but $50,000 would really help improve my collection.
TwoSides2aCoin and dcarr know what the problem is.....and how to solve it
more later
2sides to a coin said it, QC at the mint must know.
the spots are a residue from dirty rinse water and improper drying. only the mint can correct this.
<< <i>
<< <i>Whenever people come to the ocean and say, "Smell that salt air!", I have to bite my tongue. ... The characteristic smell of a beach or the ocean is from gases emitted by beach organisms, not from salt. >>
"Mmm.. smell that dimethyl sulfide bacteria fart air!" >>
LOL!
This is a great forum.
I remember years ago when GM had a problem with paint sticking to the metallic surfaces of car bodies during to or prior to assembly. My employer's founder was able to trace it back to their water purification system which was releasing large amounts of silica into the rinse wter. Perhaps something similar is happening here.
As others have stated its not likely that PCGS can really fix the problem short of screening the coins via some special light source and then dipping those which may spot. I know I'd definitely be dipping ANYTHING that was gonna get a 70. If it was known what the composition of the spot is i.e. some type of silver compound its likely they could be removed tho probably not cost effective.
<< <i><< good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! & again! & keep dipping till the cows come home & you can get your milk the way you want it!
GOOD GRIEF!!!
& yes, they are freaking silver rounds. i don't care if the federal gov't made them, they are shiny little silver disks that look exactly the same from 1 to the next.
K S >>
And, rants like this, and your own projections to everyone to think the way you do, are why your posts mean so little to most everyone here.
At one time, a few years ago, I remember a few of your posts may have had a reasonable point. However, lately, you want people to collect the way you want, think the way you want, and you belittle things just because of your own beliefs.
If there is a denomination, backed by the US Govt, on them, they aren't "silver rounds". They may be NCLT, but they aren't silver rounds.
If you don't want to collect them, fine. If you don't think people collecting them are true collectors, or smart, then that is fine.
It's just too bad you show how small-minded you are and continue to read threads that you know don't interest you other than to be negative about it.
Makes me wonder...is "FC" your alt? >>
i don't care if the pope backs 'em up w/ his direct connection the almighty, they are FREAKING SILVER BULLION
<< <i><< good god, the answer is simple! dip the danged things!!!
then, don't stick 'em in slabs so that if the spots start coming back, you can dip 'em again! >>
You're showing your ignorance, Karl. Once milk spots form, they are permanent - they cannot be dipped off.
Russ, NCNE >>
duh, uh, i KNOW that russ. dip the coins BEFORE the spots appear. i said to dip them if the spots START coming back.
"ignorance" is assuming you can't predict that the milkspots will appear.
this is totally not a new problem w/ silver rounds whatsoever. been around since the days of proof walkers & before.
<< <i>Its easy to be glib or makes jokes about others collecting habits, or choice of purchases if you are not the one suffering the consequences of something like this. We are not all "experts" and we all started somewhere. If someone chooses to start by collecting modern stuff, maybe they gradually move towards the classics as their knowledge and confidence builds. That's how it was with me. It seems as there is an effort to belittle folks for collecting modern coins to the point of running them out of the hobby. It just seems a little short-sighted to me >>
"collecting moderns" is not the point at all. the point is "collecting moderns in slabs". that is what's stupid. there is no reason whatsoever to spend $25 to slab a $15 silver round (which is what those ase's cost a few years ago).
w/out question, if you choose to collect those NOT IN PLA$TIC, you will easily be able to maintain a totally spot-free collection of silver rounds.
K S
i still say it originates at the mint...................leave mr. hall alone! we should be screaming at mr. moy!
<< <i>i still say it originates at the mint...................leave mr. hall alone! we should be screaming at mr. moy! >>
Mr Hall is the one who offered the reward and has also decided to take responsibilty for some of the financial aspects via pcgs guarantee. I doubt that Mr. Moy
gives a chit.
<< <i>A quick dip to stabilize the surfaces before ENCAPSULATING solves the problem.
Big bills, please. >>
Put the coin and the dipping solution in the slab and seal it in there with the coin during encapsulation.
Moderate size bills, please.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>During the grading process, the coins are exposed to "oral disfluencies". An "disfluency" occurs when somebody coughs or clears their throat. These events cause small drops of water (and other fluids) to stick to the coin. >>
Wrong.
Russ, NCNE
interestingly enough i agree with dorkkarl. he makes more sense
then most here in every post.
his delivery is designed to sock you in the head to wake you up
but i am thinking he is realizing it is a waste of time with most here.
and yes, they are just bullion rounds. coins is just shorter to type.
keep up the good work dorkkarl. why people want to slab a bullion
round is beyond me. most people are suckers for advertising/marketing/
and the lemming type thinking. i battle constantly with my gf to wake
her up to this problem and how it is designed to shape the way she
thinks.
bochiman always goes on and on about people he dislikes and disagrees with. he could just ignore us, but nope ;-)
Do other pure silver coins spot as much? For example slab up a test batch of maple leafs and others at the same time as some eagles. Place all in the same controlled but varied setting environment... ie.. temp, humidity etc. Is the problem worse on one group versus another. If so the mint would look to be the problem.
If they all spot then I'd look to the process and materials of slabbing. Has the composition of the slabs or gaskets (I don't know what they're called) changed?
Russ... I'm not sure how you can rule out the coughing, sneezing, etc... whether at the mint or at the TPG.
Maybe the graders should wear hairnets...
Are the coins blown off by compressed air? If so maybe the dryer on the system isn't functioning properly. I don't know for sure but I'd think that if the mint washes during the manufacturing process they likely blow dry the coins. If the air dryer is not working properly there can be moisture in the blown air.
Just some thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know "it's bullion". But if all you are going to add to this thread are "pot-shots" then "gitalife"™
<< <i>Russ... I'm not sure how you can rule out the coughing, sneezing, etc... whether at the mint or at the TPG. >>
I can rule it out at the TPG. If that were the cause, then I could not have solved the problem by stabilizing the surfaces with a quick dip before submission.
Russ, NCNE
---
yes. historical bullion. very neat large honking gold bars that are
rare because, well, lol, they were melted down and made into other
things...
what do you consider them? spending money? pocket change?
i can never get enough of this picture.
<< <i>what do you consider them? spending money? pocket change? >>
Bullion that's worth a whole lot more than melt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>what do you consider them? spending money? pocket change? >>
Of course not silly.
Unlike you, I consider them much, much more than mere bullion.
how so?
getting off topic in this post but i like my precious ;o)
miners stood in a stream picking out gold from the rock/
dug in an old stream bed to the bedrock/sluiced/panned/etc..
until they had a big pan full of gold.
took it to one of 5? major firms in cali: Blake and Company, Kellogg & Humbert,
Justh and Hunter Harris, Marchand & Company, Henry Henstch...
melted, poured, tested and then stamped.
besides being very very historical and cool how do you consider them
more then mere bullion?
some info ripped right from the cool coinfacts website where i found that pic to post: http://www.coinfacts.com/pioneer_gold/assay_bars/california_gold_assay_bars.htm
<< <i>besides being very very historical and cool how do you consider them more then mere bullion? >>
You just answered your question with your own question FC.
I am an occasional collector of ASE but the topic seemed interesting enough. I thought I might throw out a couple of ideas on this. Not being familiar with the milk spotting, hopefully you can steer me where I am wrong.
When we stamp metals the following is considered: impurities that are embedded into the desired surface and impurities that can be added during the stamping process. Impurities that are embedded into the surface usually show roll marks. If the coins do not have any of these visible blemishes before being put into the cases then that can probably be thrown out. Impurities that can be added during the stamping process can be metallic (particles in the process) or organic (usually from the stamping lubricant). Again, if no metallic impurities are found before hand then they most likely are not being stamped in. Organic lubricant can cause a variety of issues. Depending on the type of lubricant it can be slightly acidic or basic. Both of which, given extended contact with silver, will form a reaction product. Another problem with the lubricant is anions that be in the oil such as chloride and fluorine. Chloride is extremely bad as it will willingly form silver chloride.
A couple of tests that could be done to determine if either of these is a problem is to examine the spots with SEM/EDS (Scanning electron microscopy) and FTIR (Fourier Transform Infrared) spectroscopy. SEM/EDS will help identify the composition of the milky spot. Once you know the composition it takes a lot of the guessing out of it. FTIR, if organic, will give a fingerprint of what the material is. This can help identify if it is the stamping lubricant or some oil that is getting on the surface.
Another fun one that we experience is when dealing with injection molding of plastics. Stability of plasticizer and UV inhibitor agents can become an issue. If they are too old or have experienced temperature conditions outside of their tolerance they can leach to the surface of the part, in this case right onto the coin. Another thing sometimes used is mold release agents, usually containing silicone. These are evil because they are a pain to remove due to solubility constraints. Even acetone will not remove these. They also often look cloudy when they begin to break down.
If I had some of the coins that had milky spots, access to the equipment and time to do it I think I would do the following:
1. Photograph the entire surface of the coin in the hold under high magnification. This is to insure that the location of the spots are recorded for future purposes.
2. Examine the surface of the spots by:
SEM/EDS, Auger - These are surface analysis tools that with take high resolution pictures of the surface and identify elemental compound in the milky area. The SEM will allow you to understand if it is a corrosion problem eating into the coin, an adherent layer on the coin or a growth of oxide growing out of the coin. Auger will let you determine the chemical composition of the milky substance as a function of depth. Doing this will tell you if there is chloride, iodide, silicon, oxide, etc.
3. Examine the holder in the area where the milky spots is on the coin.
Use high magnification to see if there are any microscopic holes in these areas. Holes will let in moisture at slow rates and could cause the problem.
Analyze the surface of the holder with FTIR to understand if there is any adherent organic liquid (oil, plasticizer, UV stabilizer).
Once you understand the composition of the material is you can eliminate a lot of things. It will also help you find where in the process it could be coming from.
Couple of questions that could also help on this:
What is the rate of failure? - 1%, 10% etc. Rate can help locate it in the process
What is the time to failure? days, weeks, months years etc. Timing can indicate failure mechanism
What surface are is showing up on? silver, nickel, copper, gold etc Substrate can indicate conditions. Nickel is pretty resistant to corrosion so if it is showing up on there then it is a very aggressive contaminant or is not a corrosion product.
Are there storage conditions that can make it worse? If you store it at high temperature does it show up faster? If you storage at high humidity does it grow larger? I know it would be a waste but if you lose a few coins at these elevated temperatures to find the answer it would be worth it. If increased temperature accelerates it then a corrosion product is likely. If high humidity makes it grow more maybe it is a greater moisture transmission through the holder.
What is the location of the defect? Is it always on the same side of the coin? Is it always on the same portion of the holder? Same side of the coin could indicate the storage. Portion of the holder could indicate a process related issue.
I am probably missing a few things and my lack of familiarity with some of the process steps are most likely making me miss something. Twenty or so of these coins and time down at a local university would help answer a lot of these questions.
Or maybe I am completely off. This is just some of the logic that I would use to help identify the root cause. Open to comments or questions on the logic or the process. Feel free to email me.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I knew it would happen.
I said to autoclave them in partial jest because I, too, believe there is some microbiological-type process going on here. Maybe not biological, but the spots sure remind me of stuff we cultured in microbiology classes I've been in. That was so long ago...
I wish I could find where I suggested the micro- slant to this mess. It was a few months ago, wasn't it? I should be doing the study, as I have a decent micro- lab just across the bay from me a couple of miles away at my old university.
Who was it that had the macro- pictures of the small specks on an ASE? That is quite interesting and would be a great place to begin additional study as well. There sure could be some type of oily residue causing this problem, very easily. There's a contamination source somewhere.
Unfortunately/fortunately, I only have spots on one MS ASE I bought off the 'bay for somebody, ...that they never got!
Congratulations to whoever wins the $50K!
If I sent in 80 2006-W ASE PCGS MS69 with milkspots for "spot review"...and they all had milkspots.....what would be the PCGS compensation?
FloridaBill
1960s proofs in OGP
ASEs stored in OGP capsules
ASEs stored in OGP capsules in FoodSaver bags
ASEs stored in OGP tubes
ASEs stored in PCGS holders
ASEs stored in NGC holders
ASEs stored in ANACS holders
ASEs stored in PCI holders
ASEs stored in ??? in humid conditions
ASEs stored in ??? in dry conditions
....
There are anecdotal stories of spots in some situations and not other situations but is there any clear view on the level of the issue across different scenarios? Do we know if one or a few areas are affected at higher rates?
If this happens at a very low rate for OGP coins but at higher rates for TPG holdered coins, would the US Mint necessarily consider it a high priority issue?