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PSA's pack graders are clueless!

I submitted seven "star" cello packs to PSA for grading on September 9th. One was pulled directly from a sealed cello box, and the other six were bought from six different sellers. All seven came back as "altered".

First of all, how the heck do you alter a cello pack without it being visible to the naked eye??? Yeah, you can open the back and try reseal the pack, but it's impossible to do this without either glue being visible or tearing the pack.

Second, who the heck would open a pack and then INSERT star cards??? Don't people usually tamper with packs to remove star cards?

Third, what are the odds that six packs from six different sellers would ALL be "altered". One or two, maybe, but all six????

What really sucks is that now that GAI appears to be kaput, PSA will be the only pack grader left on the market. Given that their pack graders appear to be pretty clueless (I'm guessing that I'm both older and a more experienced collector than most of them), this is not a good thing.
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Comments

  • RipublicaninMassRipublicaninMass Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
    image
    image

    nO BASHING
  • A pack with a star showing will definitely sell for more than the card out of the pack so there is definitely a reason to do it. I can't tell you if it's possible or not
    Tom
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    ha-i like yer 2nd video ted-guy didnt put up a whole lot of resistance from 1st punch of his beatdown did he lmao!!!!!!i like it


    that sucks about the cellos-esp from 6 diff places,maybe stupid people were grading that day,idcall em up and ask em exactly how they were altered????
  • CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092
    No one ever asked me to hide a gun before. I have to admit, it turned me on.
  • chaz43chaz43 Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭


    << <i>No one ever asked me to hide a gun before. I have to admit, it turned me on. >>






    LOL !!!! image



    chaz


  • << <i>ha-i like yer 2nd video ted-guy didnt put up a whole lot of resistance from 1st punch of his beatdown did he lmao!!!!!!i like it


    that sucks about the cellos-esp from 6 diff places,maybe stupid people were grading that day,idcall em up and ask em exactly how they were altered???? >>




    I was under the impression that all packs are sent out to Steve Hart .
    Steve gives them the thumbs up or thumbs down, then the packs are returned to PSA where a grader then assigns a grade to the pack
  • Carew29Carew29 Posts: 4,025 ✭✭

    Easy way to catch PSA. Buy from Steve Hart and submit. Glad i could help.image
  • Who the heck is Steve Hart?
  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
    Let me guess, you spent just as much time examining the packs as you did thinking about your alias name.

    That's what you get for trying to pull a fast one on PSA and they thank you for your money.

    image

    Edited to add:



    << <i>Who the heck is Steve Hart? >>



    Yeah, I call BS on this. Care to share your submission results?
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • Actually,

    I examine everything I buy pretty damn carefully....if I didn't think the packs were fine I wouldn't have submitted them for grading.

    And is Steve Hart so famous that everyone should know who he is? I've been collecting since 1977 (i.e. 31 years), and I have never heard of him....
  • BunchOBullBunchOBull Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭
    Steve Hart, if you're reading, who are you?
    Collector of most things Frank Thomas. www.BigHurtHOF.com
  • goyegoye Posts: 454 ✭✭
    You so sneaky,,,,,,the first 2 guess's dont countimage
    1985-86 O Pee Chee PSA 910 Hockey
  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Actually,

    I examine everything I buy pretty damn carefully....if I didn't think the packs were fine I wouldn't have submitted them for grading. >>



    Then you shouldn't mind providing your submission number and zip code, in addition to scans of the packs in question. A lot here will know if the packs appear to have been tampered.



    << <i>And is Steve Hart so famous that everyone should know who he is? I've been collecting since 1977 (i.e. 31 years), and I have never heard of him.... >>



    If you are into unopened material, yes, you should know who he is. Heck, I rarely mess with unopened items and knew of him prior to joining the boards. If you haven't heard of him until now, I suggest that you do some research ASAP.
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • TreetopTreetop Posts: 1,474
    probably 3-4 of the cello's are actually altered. PSA see's this and then to be on the safe side makes the entire submission altered thinking you are a certifiable cello hacker.

    I suggest you change your name and address before submitting to PSA again. You are most definitely on the "your doomed forever" list which is posted twice yearly at PSA headquarters

    image
    Link to my current Ebay auctions

    "If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
  • EchoCanyonEchoCanyon Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭
    PSA doesn't even grade packs in-house, which is total BS.

    I dropped off some sealed packs at a show in NY. 60 days later not only were they returned to me 'altered", the were returned OPENED!

    More total BS.
  • Stown,

    Since you are a "Master Collector", why don't you enlighten the rest of us as to who Steve Hart is....I did a Google search and came up with absolutely nothing.

    Treetop,

    Not to worry....I'll never submit anything to PSA again anyway!
  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    Here is a start on Steve:

    link
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,955 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Stown,

    Since you are a "Master Collector", why don't you enlighten the rest of us as to who Steve Hart is....I did a Google search and came up with absolutely nothing.

    Treetop,

    Not to worry....I'll never submit anything to PSA again anyway! >>




    First try I Googled "Steve Hart" baseball cards, and his website is at the top of the list. That was a tough one to figure out.


    -


  • << <i>Stown,

    Since you are a "Master Collector", why don't you enlighten the rest of us as to who Steve Hart is....I did a Google search and came up with absolutely nothing. >>



    Steve Hart owns Baseball Card Exchange and he authenticates unopened material for PSA. Those are some pretty strong accusations against PSA and all Stown is asking you to do is post the submission results on the boards to back up those claims. Just copy and past the results from the email that PSA sent you.
  • jrinckjrinck Posts: 1,321 ✭✭
    Steve Hart appears to be legit, but what happens when Steve decides he doesn't want to grade packs anymore and PSA goes with somebody else, somebody else perhaps not as honest as Steve?

    By sending packs outside of PSA headquarters, there is a very real threat of compromise. Suppose I send a '52 Topps pack out, and the authenticator believes it's legit, TAKES THE PACK FOR HIMSELF, then substitutes a searched pack in its place and calls the searched pack legit, too? Would PSA even know what happened?

    If PSA really sends these packs out of their hands for any length of time, then no way in heck will I ever submit a pack to them or buy one graded by them.
  • Thanks for the info!

    That said, can anybody answer my original question of how a cello pack could be altered without it being visible to the naked eye?
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,449 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PSA's pack graders are clueless! >>

    Hmmmm...

    Well, let's start with - a newbie would never come on a PSA board and make such a sweeping generalization.

    Quite frankly - I find it hard to take seriously anyone new to the boards who would do this.

    You're the second person this week to be pulling - no wait - yanking on my leg and I'm too old for that.

    Now you've gone and done it!

    I have a digustingly disfiguring limp!

    image
    Mike
  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
    Does this mean you aren't going to post your sub results or scans?
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts


  • << <i>Thanks for the info!

    That said, can anybody answer my original question of how a cello pack could be altered without it being visible to the naked eye? >>




    Actually theres quite a few ways. I dont care to list them as it would aid future scams. Honestly resealing cello and wax is too easy. Some people make a living on it...

    If you look around for Mark Murphy aka BBCKid he sells a book with tips on what to look for. Corners, folds et cetera.
    imageimageimage
  • Here are the items in question:

    07245777 1968 TOPPS BASEBALL CELLO PACK 4th SERIES Not Holdered, Altered
    07245778 1968 TOPPS BASEBALL CELLO PACK N/A Not Holdered, Altered
    04788991 1981 TOPPS FOOTBALL CELLO PACK JOE MONTANA-TOP Not Holdered, Altered
    04788992 1980 TOPPS BASEBALL CELLO PACK RICKEY HENDERSON-TOP Not Holdered, Altered
    04788993 1985 TOPPS BASEBALL CELLO PACK KIRBY PUCKETT-TOP Not Holdered, Altered
    04788994 1983 TOPPS BASEBALL CELLO PACK TONY GWYNN-TOP Not Holdered, Altered
    04788995 1984 TOPPS FOOTBALL CELLO PACK ERIC DICKERSON-TOP Not Holdered, Altered
  • If anyone would seriously think that PSA would "RISK" its reputation on a "QUESTIONABLE" authenticator,
    whether it is packs, singles or whatever, well........come on !

    Millions and millions of dollars at stake, not to mention the liability and they are going to throw it all
    away for 5 or 6 packs of unopened sportscards? Let's try to be a little realistic here.

    This is not to say, however, that they don't make mistakes, we all know they do, after all they
    are like everyone else, only humans.

    I don't think PSA is perfect, on the contrary. It's all a judgement call, and if you were the grader
    and would throw caution, you would err on the conservative side.

    I'm not saying your packs are not what they are supposed to be, I am just talking about the
    comment made about "QUESTIONABLE" people that do the grading.
  • bifff257bifff257 Posts: 751 ✭✭


    << <i>and the other six were bought from six different sellers >>




    WOW, does Gary have 6 ebay sellers accounts nowimage
  • The problem is that customers don't pay them to "err on the conservative side". They pay them to be accurate!

    If they are going to take my money and return my packs to me as "altered", the least they could do is explain why they think that they are altered!!
  • I assume they dont explain why because then scammers would know what they need to "fix".

    Your not going to ever get 100% accuracy as its all opinion and everyone has a different one. Plus humans make mistakes, even computers do too. Nothing is guaranteed 100% in life...uh well death and taxes are. lol
    imageimageimage
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    do any of the cellos look differnet on the backs sealed from the other ones?seems cellos would be a whole lot harder to mess with than wax,but ive never tried to reseal a cello, ive just opened em,havnt opened one for years lol
    maybe they were all resealed lol, or maybe humberto the pack grader smoked to much crack on his lunch break !id ask em why-they have a phone-id give em a ring, i like to yell, it was my job!image:crazyimage
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,449 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The problem is that customers don't pay them to "err on the conservative side". They pay them to be accurate!

    If they are going to take my money and return my packs to me as "altered", the least they could do is explain why they think that they are altered!! >>

    Mr Nameshimselfwithnumbers

    Good point and I'm sure if you took the time to call - perhaps someone might explain it.

    When it comes to cards, I believe they don't give a lot of explanation due to the time - it's a cost effectiveness thing IMO.

    Now, if you pay enough - e.g. if you submit a Ruth sig which is gonna cost ya 150$ - they will give you a detailed reason for not giving it the ok.

    Having said all this - I would hardly accuse them of being clueless just because they happen not to agree with you.

    mike
    Mike
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    I think he just got burned on a submission that he knew little about, and's looking for someone to blame. Look in the mirror, chief! image
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    Mr Nameshimselfwithnumbers haaaaaa-he is the chief!you gave him a indain name mike!!!!!!!i watched apocolypto about the mayans last night so i gots indains on my mind, like crazy dancing turtle or dances with wolves-maybe this guy is gary the pack resealer guy checking psas stuff now that gai went gown the toilet ,1980s junkie-is that him????????
  • Agreed the title is a bit harsh. They grade MANY packs and since yours got rejected THEY are clueless. So you are the expert? You must have knowledge if you know they are clueless. If so, tell us why they got rejected. What signs do you see? Also agree with teh statement that if a few look bad its assumed they all are. Dont think PSA would acknowledge this practice but I can see the validity.

    Many submitters that send in subs later find a surface wrinkle or a missed dinged corner or a disagreement of centering.

    What makes you so sure these packs are legit?

    Its just too easy to open a pack and put a star on top and the pack will sell for 2-3x its value w/o the star showing.
    imageimageimage
  • A) Because at least one of them (the 1980 Henderson pack) I pulled directly from a sealed cello box.

    B) Because I've yet to figure out how somebody could open and reseal a cello pack without it being visible to the naked eye. You would have to use some sort of glue to reseal the pack, and that would definitely be visible to the naked eye. Even if a clear-colored glue was used, it would still be noticeable.
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    well, i suppose if they can send guys to a space station in outer space,somebody can prob reseal a cello without anyone noticing-i would think you could use heat or steam /iron,and a towel to do it, i dont have 1 to try it on or i would, i need a 88 or 89 donruss cello!
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the bottom line here may be if you bought 7 cello packs from imascammer at "too good to be true" prices, then don't be surprised if all the packs come back rejected as altered from PSA.
  • Rube,

    How would heat or a steam iron help someone re-seal the pack?
  • SteveK,

    They were bought from six different people, and the 1980 Henderson cello was pulled directly from a sealed cello box.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭
    Steve Hart is as honest as they get. At the very least a new person questioning his integrity is going to raise a few eyebrows and cast doubt on the credibility of the poster. A couple of suggestions-

    -Buy Murphy's book. It's about $8 and well worth it.
    -Read up on packs a bit both here and on the ebay pack group before making accusations. They will mean a lot more.
    -With all due respect, if you don't know who Steve Hart is you should slow down on the buying a bit before you get burned more. Take a look at his site, and shoot him an email or give him a call. He's a great guy and I've found him to be very willing to share his knowledge. Buy a cello pack from him and use it to see the differences between the legit one and yours.
    -buying ungraded unopened material on ebay is like playing russian roullete with all the chambers full.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    the same way wax packs are resealed-dont know if that would melt the plastic on cellos or just reheat the glue back to the way it was
    id give em a call myself!i hope they didnt come from 6 diff of garys aliases on ebay
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,955 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>SteveK,

    They were bought from six different people, and the 1980 Henderson cello was pulled directly from a sealed cello box. >>



    I hear ya and I read the posts - there are hundreds if not many thousands of scammers out there selling resealed packs as "unopened" - it seems clear to me that you bought from 6 of them. If they resealed a cello pack then they can and will reseal a cello box. A lot of people get ripped off by these scams - the key is to learn from it.
  • Since it was mentioned, yes heat can be used to reseal packs. It works quite well. I have tried it on cello and wax when I collected unopened so I knew what to look for.

    "You pulled the cello from a sealed cello box." Sealed? case? or box? As Im unaware of cello boxes being selaed or shrink wrapped. I could be wrong. Now I know a certain scammer shrink wraps boxes and sells them as legit but they didnt come from the factory that way. When you say sealed, do you mean the flap was closed?

    imageimageimage
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭
    Or any of PAOutdoorsmans alias. Were any from Pennsylvania? Red Barn computers or something of the like? They had numerous ebay id's with tons of cellos, all of them bogus.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • I think it stands to reason that pack grading is much more subjective than grading baseball cards, which is very subjective.


  • << <i>A) Because at least one of them (the 1980 Henderson pack) I pulled directly from a sealed cello box.

    B) Because I've yet to figure out how somebody could open and reseal a cello pack without it being visible to the naked eye. You would have to use some sort of glue to reseal the pack, and that would definitely be visible to the naked eye. Even if a clear-colored glue was used, it would still be noticeable. >>




    they use crazy glue, just need a faint amount to seal cello pack, barely noticable....

    and you think you just lucked out to find these "star" cello packs.....

    resealers are realizing these bring more money from people gullable enough to buy them, so they are making more "star" packs...

    you are actually contributing to the problem by buying these.....
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think a good analogy might be if there are 1,000 street vendors in New York City selling Rolex watches for $20 each, and you buy a Rolex watch from 6 different of these vendors, well...of course if you send the watches to Rolex authenticators, each watch will of course be returned as fake.
  • detroitfan2detroitfan2 Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭✭
    <<"You pulled the cello from a sealed cello box." Sealed? case? or box? As Im unaware of cello boxes being selaed or shrink wrapped. I could be wrong. Now I know a certain scammer shrink wraps boxes and sells them as legit but they didnt come from the factory that way. When you say sealed, do you mean the flap was closed?>>

    My thoughts exactly. Here's a photo of an unopened 1980 Cello Box, and she ain't sealed:

    image
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    good anaogly steve,if this guys been in it for 31 years, he knows all this though,its not like resealing techniques are known to only a select few people in the world or anything?
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