Home U.S. Coin Forum

Don't collect ugly coins, even if they are rare.

One of the top dealers(and authors) has started collecting again-Doug Winter.

In his OP on collecting National Bank notes, he states that he isn't going to buy the worn ugly notes, though rare, and perhaps needed for the series he is collecting.

I understand, and agree. Every time I look at the XF or lower grades in my Bust half collection, I cringe. I have tried to assemble a group of AU or better early dates, and MS for the later ones. But the bug/addiction to complete a series sometimes overcomes the best of plans.

This is not to say you shouldn't collect any grade below AU. But if your set is mostly F to AU, why include a problem G, or an ugly F. Better to leave that one blank, or wait til your resources allow a better grade.

The coin I am regretting is the 1795/1795 3 leaves. They just don't come nice, even for the assigned grade. But to find the only AU or better, is a goal that cannot be achieved. Most likely.
TahoeDale
«1

Comments

  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    if the price is right and low enough i will consider cleaned, ugly, and
    etc coins. the discount has to be quite beefy though to get me interested.

    for example, any southern gold lib half eagles for less then 500.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Collect what you want... standards are personal taste and pocket book guided. Cheers, RickO


  • << <i>Collect what you want... standards are personal taste and pocket book guided. Cheers, RickO >>



    I tried to post a thread about posting what you like and it got poofed! Good advice though! image
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
    I subscribe to the same theory, sort of.

    To me the key criteria is: "Will I enjoy looking at this coin?"

    If the answer is 'no', then I don't care how cheap it is, or how rare it is, I just can't see a reason to own it.
  • FinallyHereFinallyHere Posts: 821 ✭✭✭
    Edited because I meant to reply to another thread - hey, it's a Monday so cut me a break!
    Mike Printz
    Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
    https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,193 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Don't collect ugly coins, even if they are rare. >>

    Love it when people tell other people what to collect. image
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    Love it when people tell other people what to collect.

    my sarcasm detector just exploded. hm.

  • This is a hobby, and it's all about the enjoyment of the coins. If you aren't enjoying it (weather it's the coins themselves or for some people even just the thrill of the hunt to find that rare coin or that killer deal), you shouldn't be doing it.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    one of the hardest things to master in the hobby is patience. way too many collectors feel that if they pass on a certain coin they'll be shut out and that type of thinking has caused more than a few to deviate from what their original thinking might have been when starting a set. certainly there are some rare/scarce items that won't come around very often but those are few and far between, being the exception for most of us and most series/sets. i figure that if i'm really obsessed with buying-buying-buying it'll be better in the long run if i try to improve what i already have instead of compromising myself just to fill a hole. i'm currently in the midst of a 2+ year wait on the right 1805 Half-Cent and don't feel compelled to buy "any coin" just to have it.

    FWIW, i'm also not one to subscribe to the thinking that says "buy the best coin you can afford" when that coin is one i'm not totally satisfied with.
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Depending on Doug's scope, he is going to have a tough time finding "non ugly" Nationals.

    Some in the census dont exist above VG.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beauty (or ugliness) is in the eye of the beholder.
  • JamericonJamericon Posts: 439 ✭✭✭
    As someone who has seriously collected paper money for the last few years, this topic has different meanings for paper and coin.

    Especially as it pertains to Nationals, quite often the only note known, or the very few notes known, are the ratty, dirty VGs. Sometimes there is no such thing as "waiting for a better example to show up". That's it. For the most part, the chance to own a better example of any coin happens much, much more than it does for paper money.

    But I do respect what anyone chooses to collect, even in a way that Mr. Winter suggests. Heck, an ugly piece, no matter how rare, is ugly. And sometimes that cannot be overlooked.

    Jamie Yakes - U.S. paper money collector, researcher, and author. | Join the SPMCUS Small-Size Notes, National Bank Notes, and NJ Depression Scrip
  • Well I guess it comes down to these two options referring to most "rare" coins-

    1. Never completing the set because there are no pleasing examples available.

    2. Completing the set with a key date that has one of the few examples available.

    I'll go with option #2.
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will buy an ugly coin if it is a rare die marriage or remarriage for my set of capped bust half dimes. I will not settle for that coin in the long run, for I will continue to seek an upgrade until I am satisfied with the eye appeal of my set piece. I'd rather have a slightly bent Fine-minus 1833 LM-5/V-10 (four known) than no example at all.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buy National Banknotes....before they are promoted.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • This content has been removed.
  • TahoeDaleTahoeDale Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
    "Who cares what others think about what to collect"

    If you don't care what others think, that's great. Collect what you like.

    But Doug Winter, among several others we rely on, has some great insights to collecting, buying, selling that come with only years of experience.

    Depending on your budget, maybe only raw problem coins can be collected. But if the series you are interested in can be assembled in higher grades, and you are committed to putting together a comparable group of similar grades, then the ugly (and expensive) rarities may have to be omitted.

    Just an approach that you might think about, before you buy a coin that is not satisfactory for the overall collection.
    TahoeDale
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buy the best you can afford.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,193 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Doug Winter, among several others we rely on >>

    We rely on Doug Winter?
  • DoctorPaperDoctorPaper Posts: 616 ✭✭✭
    Think it's OK to show this national currency note on the coin board-it's got coins on the back. It's a ratty VG/F National Bank Note. Look at those creases, faded serial and treasury seal, not to mention the clipped corner and rough edges. Guess what, it's scarce, I like it and I'm keeping it!!

    image
    Wisconsin nationals: gotta love 'em....
  • To each his own. I would rather do without than buy an ugly coin (even one sharply discounted). Quality comes before quantity.
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will buys those ugly unwanted coins and most likely get them at a steep discount due to lack of demand.

    Well I sure can't argue with that. Go for it!
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,780 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I disagree...

    Each coin really needs to be evaluated on its own merits... it becomes even more critical in terms of evaluating rarity. Is the coin really just ugly, possibly environmentally impaired or damaged or is the coin a low grade and perhaps it is not likely many better examples will come your way?

    There are low grade examples worth owning... the skill is determining which ones they are...image

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭

    To not complete a collection just because a particular date is unaffordable in the grade one wishes to own doesn't make sense to me. Yes, the coin may not "match" the rest of the collection, but if it's an ultra-rare piece, one should still be proud to own it. Just be sure it's a piece you enjoy looking at even if the coin is low grade. I prefer MS pieces for my Buffalo nickel collection. But I've seen several attractive rare dates in circulated grades that I would be happy to own if MS examples were out of my price range.

    As Keets already stated, patience is the key. I've waited years (and still am waiting in some cases) for the right piece to come along in a particular date/mm. But when the right piece presents itself, the satisfaction of acquisition is all the greater irregardless of the grade.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition. A lower quality coin can be a placeholder for a later upgrade. And there will always be someone looking for a placeholder of their own at that point.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug and Dale have always given me good advice. Ignore it at your own peril.

    one of the hardest things to master in the hobby is patience. way too many collectors feel that if they pass on a certain coin they'll be shut out and that type of thinking has caused more than a few to deviate from what their original thinking might have been when starting a set. certainly there are some rare/scarce items that won't come around very often but those are few and far between, being the exception for most of us and most series/sets. i figure that if i'm really obsessed with buying-buying-buying it'll be better in the long run if i try to improve what i already have instead of compromising myself just to fill a hole. i'm currently in the midst of a 2+ year wait on the right 1805 Half-Cent and don't feel compelled to buy "any coin" just to have it.

    Keets has also given me good advice, and I agree with him completely. I certainly have made buying mistakes attributable to my lack of patience, and this is like to surface again if/when I get active.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭


    << <i> and this is like to surface again if/when I get active. >>




    You're already back, man. image
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • CCU has nailed it-


    << <i>To me the key criteria is: "Will I enjoy looking at this coin?" >>


    edited to add- I have bought some real barkers with rare cuds or terminal die states that are unique or nearly so, and will again if sufficiently interesting.
  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭
    I've never understood it when I see some lump of metal that totally looks like crap and a collector brags about the acquisition. Yep....just my opinion. But if the thing looks like junk but is ultra-ultra rare, I personally still don't care. I like to collect to share and show others. If I show off some ugly piece of junk to someone and they look at it and want to puke, that's not a coin I want to have in my collection. Every time you pull that coin out, you'll go wow, what an ugly, rare coin this is!

    I recall seeing a thread about a 1796 quarter that ended up in a PCGS slab and it was scratched into oblivion. That's an example of something I wouldn't want to own for free (barring of course that I'd be allowed to immediately resell it so fast that heads would spin).
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    I have never, ever bought an "ugly" coin.

    However, I have bought many coins in the Ag-G range.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    I have a slightly different view, if you mean collect expensive coins that are ugly I would agree. I was an American History major undergraduate. There are coins that many here would say are ugly but to me they are historically significant to me, not just because of the date but because of the travels they could tell. I am not alone in picking up these coins for my stated reasons as I know many local collectors who feel the same way. I can look past a nasty scratch and wonder to myself how many towns, how many stores and how many families has this coined traveled through while we struggled to become the nation we have today. Some of my coins have come down through 3 generations or were coins I picked out of circulation in the 50's, to me they have intrinsic value. So yes by all means collect them.
  • PipestonePetePipestonePete Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey DoctorPaper,

    I might add that's a REALLY SWEET ratty VG/F National Bank note.
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I actually prefer mixed grades in my collection from VG to AU, and consider a coin on its individual merits rather than trying to match it to a set. I enjoy the lower grades coins, they have a lot of character, and when I sell my collection I will keep the lower grade dupes. I also use my coins for reference in numismatic research, quality is not a factor when analyzing the attributes of coins, but for common varieties, I go for better quality.

    Dale's advice is better than my collecting habits, a PQ coin is always an easy sell. That AU three leaves will be a long wait though, since there are probably no more than 3 or 4 in true XF or AU. A VF would not be that bad
    image
    image
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
    If you chose to collect a particular series because you like the appearance of brilliant or beautifully toned examples, you may not be happy owning pieces in VF. Why spend a lot of money on something from which you will only derive disappointment?

    CG
  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭
    Let me also add, I have some "beautiful" coins in the G/VG range. I have no problem with low grades down to G. Once all the details are gone or the coin is damage, I have no interest in that lump of metal.
  • speetyspeety Posts: 5,424


    << <i>
    To me the key criteria is: "Will I enjoy looking at this coin?"
    >>



    image
    Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!

  • I also enjoy mixed grade collecting. I like to have an asortment of grades, usally from VF to MS. SOmehow, it is more interesting to me.
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    It is all about defining the collection.

    If the parameters are only attractive coins that are part of a certain collection, then that is fine.

    If completeness is critical and you wish to get different die varieties, die states, etc., such as Jules Reiver did then forget about attractive high grade coins.

    Again, DEFINE your collection.

    I have collected early currency from different areas and have found that some notes may not even be available complete, let alone beautiful. If I want a note, it may be that one that is missing a portion may be the only one in existence. Completeness makes strange bedfellows.

    CCU's statement is appropriate for his collection and it may be for your collection.

    I do not agree with Dale's statement, in general, however.

    DEFINITION!!
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    an overlooked point about settling on an "ugly coin" by whatever the definition might be: what will happen when the time comes to sell??? nice stuff is easier to sell than problem stuff just as rare/scarce stuff is easier to sell than common stuff. i've found that the best of all worlds is trying to sell a nice rare/scarce item!!! they tend to be as easy to sell as they are hard to find.
  • bluelobsterbluelobster Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭
    As someone posted earlier..... ugly is in the "eye of the beholder"and I tend to agree, but primarily because I am a type collector and for me, it makes no sense to me to fill a type set with non pq coins, whether or not they are rare date or a tough variety makes very little difference to me.

    On the other hand, set and variety collectors are driven by a whole different focus. and I imagine an r6 would be sought after even if it wore pocket protectors, had zits and missing teeth!
  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭
    Here's the "offending coin" I was referring to...

    1796
  • "I will buy[s] those ugly unwanted coins and most likely get them at a steep discount due to lack of demand."

    Yes, and if you decide to sell them later on, they will sell at a steep discount. What goes around, comes around.


    Ugly does not necessarily mean low grade (G-VG). I have seen plenty of ugly coins that are graded MS65. Perhaps a better description would be 'no eye appeal whatsoever,' and this still leaves lots of room for disagreement. To me, ugly does mean bent, corroded, spot-tooled, whizzed, harshly cleaned, AT (in wacky colors), and sometimes NT (especially dark, 'toning-burn'). Most MS60-61 coins look ugly to me because of too many contact marks (especially big coins like silver dollars and double eagles). Some collectors derive pleasure from any new coin added to their collection, and others (like me) are probably overly critical, always glaring at the imperfections in coins in our collections.
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>one of the hardest things to master in the hobby is patience. way too many collectors feel that if they pass on a certain coin they'll be shut out and that type of thinking has caused more than a few to deviate from what their original thinking might have been when starting a set. FWIW, i'm also not one to subscribe to the thinking that says "buy the best coin you can afford" when that coin is one i'm not totally satisfied with. >>



    I concur with you on this! image
    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Don't collect ugly coins, even if they are rare. >>

    that's the usual dumb advice that's always blabbered about by those who are only capable of viewing coins thru a $$$.

    much better to collect what YOU like, & let those who think they are leaders wander around aimlessly w/ their blinders on

    K S
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    I buy Bust coins because I like their look. Filling holes is not very important to me, as evidenced by my collecting multiples of certain varieties I especially like.

    If a Bust variety is so rare that I cannot afford anything but an ugly lower grade or damaged specimen, I don't bother looking to buy the variety. Sure, I might gee whiz it, but would not consider buying it.

    Busties in grades below XF 40, and problem coins, simply do not fill my ownership needs. I have no problem appreciating why other collectors buy only lower grades, it just doesn't do it for me.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree - no Barbers in MY collection. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • Well, he is going to have a tough time with some rare national bank notes, because many rare ones are ugly ugly.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Agree - no Barbers in MY collection. image >>

    Theodore Roosevelt agrees!
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree - no Barbers in MY collection. Tim, you're a smart man.

    It took me a few years to find a business strike dime and quarter that I feel proud enough to show to friends. It took nearly four years to find a Half like that. Business strike Shield Nickels are just as tough, as are toned SLQs.

    A friend with LOTS of money put together a very impressive (ie., expensive) set of Half Cents by date and variety. It was so impressive that even the auction catalogue re the sale of this collection is a collector's item.

    I asked him why he sold his collection. His comment was, "I just got tired of paying $20,000 or more for something that looked like a piece of dog****."
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file