Has anybody gotten so good they can tell PR69 vs PR70?

nationaltreasureshop

I know there are a lot of experts on here - just wondering: has anybody gotten to the point where they can fairly reliably detect the difference between a PR69 and a PR70?

If so, over many long years of looking at coins, what have you learned to look for?

AUandAG

Not me,

bob

DoubleEagle59

I sometimes think there is no difference between a pr69 and a pr70. Regrade a pr70 and you're taking a huge chance on it being graded a pr69.

That is why I will never, and I repeat never, buy a pr70 coin at sky high prices.

Artist

Its So Easy!

If the holder says its a 69 its a 69, if it says its a 70 its a 70 -



Think I am being funny? No way - just try to sell a 70 outisde of the holder and see how much you get for it - that will prove my point.

Zoins

Some people have claimed to be able to dramatically increase their probability of getting 70s by looking at raw coins before submission.

DoubleEagle59

Think I am being funny? No way - just try to sell a 70 outisde of the holder and see how much you get for it - that will prove my point

Exactly my point. You summed it up perfectly 'Artist'!

Zoins

<< <i>Think I am being funny? No way - just try to sell a 70 outisde of the holder and see how much you get for it - that will prove my point >>

Try selling a PCGS toner out of the holder. Better yet, try that with most classic coins.

morgansforever

sometimes think there is no difference between a pr69 and a pr70. Regrade a pr70 and you're taking a huge chance on it being graded a pr69.

I'm with you. I don't think the graders know either. Maybe they just flip a coin, hopefully not the one their grading.

ricko

Not routinely, but I have on occasion been able to detect a bright 'tic' on a 69 when held properly... and have not seen one on the 70's I have examined. The difference is mainly for the number chasers and flippers. 69's are remarkably cheaper (and can/have upgraded to 70) and for all collectors purposes, a better buy. Cheers, RickO

tahoe98

best way to check the difference is with a scale...................the 70 will weigh more.

cladking

This isn't easy and certainly didn't come naturally to me but I can
separate proofs into six or eight different levels depending on how
wide their spread is fronm the mint.

All the 70's will be in the best category, no doubt. The size of this
category tends to be reasonably reflective of the pops. Generally
it's around 2% but varies from issue to issue. Some of the newer
proofs have a lot of 70's.

Joflax

Its easy !!

If my name is on the submission form its a 69.

ILikeMercs

SGS is GREAT at it.

ozzyfan269

curly

Brother, I may be "so good", but I ain't "that good". ( did I say that right? )

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>Think I am being funny? No way - just try to sell a 70 outisde of the holder and see how much you get for it - that will prove my point >>

Try selling a PCGS toner out of the holder. Better yet, try that with most classic coins. >>



Not necessarily. Plenty of fabulous coins are raw, and bring very strong money.

TOners are another story

roadrunner

I looked at an MS70 NGC ASE this past weekend and within 5 seconds with a 5X glass spotted a small luster break in the obverse field. There were also some light spots on the coin. I'm still looking for my first true MS70 silver coin. I won't spend any time trying to look at modern PF69's and 70's. That's just too painful.

roadrunner

Coxe

<< <i>SGS is GREAT at it. >>



LOL! Excellent.

Texast

Basically if you look at a proof and see the slightest tic, break in frosting, ejection doubling, spot toning, anything that would distract from the coin it is not a 70, it's easier to disqualify something than it is to qualify it. Out of 9 Silver Eagle submissions I got 5 70's, coins that went out without tics came back with them, you have to hope and pray that the grading service (NGC in this case) sends back the coins you sent them or handles them with enough care that they don't add problems to the coins. Out of 4 Platinum Eagles sent to PCGS I got two 70's, I knew two had problems but wanted them slabbed.

seateddime

not I

veryfine

Not me!
Most of us have trouble distinguishing among Proof 65, 66, 67 and 68. Of course some are better at it then others, but none are always right. This applies to ms grades as well.

AngryTurtle

On a small sample, 10's of coins, I think I can bat around 50% in "disqualifying" 70's - seeing a problem that will cause a coin to be a 69. Still half of my 70's come back as 69s.

Snapdragon

I'm batting 0 for 5 on NGC crossovers. The only thing I have learned is that the difference cannot be determined by photographs of coins no matter how pretty they are. The lighting on a coin in a photo just doesnt reveal enough detail. But I'm working on it....

Snapdragon

PrivateCoinCollector

Yes! If the dealer is selling it it is PF 70, If I am selling it to the dealer than it is PF 69.

RBinTex

No

PrivateCoinCollector

<< <i>I looked at an MS70 NGC ASE this past weekend and within 5 seconds with a 5X glass spotted a small luster break in the obverse field. There were also some light spots on the coin. I'm still looking for my first true MS70 silver coin. I won't spend any time trying to look at modern PF69's and 70's. That's just too painful.

roadrunner >>



That's your problem right there. Real men don't use loops.

wondercoin

Mastering the 69/70 line is no different than mastering the MS66RD/MS67RD Lincoln cent line, the MS65/MS66 Liberty nickel or any other critical grading line where the price moves up sharply between single grade points. Yes, it does take a great deal of work and study to master any of these lines (and seeing a ton of coins).

Last Summer, my two kids (15 and 17 now) had the pleasure of spending a sizeable portion of their Summer vacation screening between 10,000 - 15,000 1 oz Buffalo Gold pieces (first year of the series coins) in PCGS-MS69 and PCGS-MS70 holders. Without question, each of them is now a master at understanding the "line" between MS69 and MS70 $50 Buffalo gold coins. They had a unique opportunity to screen nearly $10,000,000.00 worth of graded coins in a specific series over a 60 day time period and learn the nuances of that particular coin and exactly what PCGS was looking for in their MS70 specimens. IMHO, these (2) kids could outgrade anyone out there (even virtually any professional coin grader working at a grading service) in this specific series now and the 69/70 line is SIMPLE for them to determine.

I believe anyone has any opportunity to become the very best grader in whatever specialized series they chose and the 69/70 line is no different than any other 1 point line once one has mastered it.

Wondercoin

DJCoinz

<< <i> sometimes think there is no difference between a pr69 and a pr70. Regrade a pr70 and you're taking a huge chance on it being graded a pr69.

I'm with you. I don't think the graders know either. Maybe they just flip a coin, hopefully not the one their grading. >>

shuckins

roll dem bones

lordmarcovan

Some say they can.

I ain't one of them.



<< <i>Its So Easy!

If the holder says its a 69 its a 69, if it says its a 70 its a 70 >>

That pretty much sums up how I tell the difference.

In fact, I personally will grade raw coins only up to 65, even if I know they are 66, 67, maybe even 68. I leave the 66-70 supergrades to the TPGs to figure out.

claychaser

Here's how my YN did on MS coins:

1 13880816 150442 2007-W $5 Eagle US MS70
1 2 13880817 150442 2007-W $5 Eagle US MS70
2 1 13880818 150441 2007-W $10 Eagle US MS70
2 2 13880819 150441 2007-W $10 Eagle US MS70
2 3 13880820 150441 2007-W $10 Eagle US MS70
2 4 13880821 150441 2007-W $10 Eagle US MS69


It was a good day.......

tr8cer

<< <i>Its So Easy!

If the holder says its a 69 its a 69, if it says its a 70 its a 70 -



Think I am being funny? No way - just try to sell a 70 outisde of the holder and see how much you get for it - that will prove my point. >>



You said it before I could.

notwilight

<< <i>I'm batting 0 for 5 on NGC crossovers. The only thing I have learned is that the difference cannot be determined by photographs of coins no matter how pretty they are. The lighting on a coin in a photo just doesnt reveal enough detail. But I'm working on it.... Snapdragon >>



That's not suprising. NGC usually (but not always) grades NCLT loosely. Perhaps you're getting tired of me pointing out that they grade 2/3 of all MS buffalos as MS70. PCGS in 07 is about 8%. So crossovers shouldn't be expected to work very often. This is reflected in prices as well. --jerry

jdimmick

I basically began by assessing the coin from a perfect 70 standpoint, if I see a tic, spec, discoloration spot, luster break or any other distraction, then I begin to drop the grading points based on what I see using the 9x eschenbach. So basically if I see something , that pretty much eliminates the so called 70 grade for me.

The problem I have is if you find one that is perfect, your not always insured a 70 as the tpg will only give out so many anyway, so you may have a 69 coin that has a shot at upgrading, but more importantly, many 70's today if cracked and re-submitted raw probably woulnd't necesarilly go back into a 70 holder the second time around.

IMO, a 70 coin has registry driven value only and truly not worth the multiple premiums of a real nice 69 coin !!!!!

MoneyLA

this question came up on the registry forum a couple of years ago.

When I had my proof silver washington registry set, I had the only date run of 1960 to 1964 proof 70s. at one time I owned about one-third of all the pcgs pr70 silver washingtons, so I have examined many of them.

while I never "made" a pr70 myself, I certainly can tell the difference between a pr70 and a pr69... and it doesnt take much special skill to tell the difference.

in the case of the pr70 silver washingtons (1960 to 1964) the proof 70s will scream out at you... they have much sharper strikes and details than even the pr69s.

I do not know other series well enough to say that I could tell the difference between other pr70s and other pr69s, but I certainly know the Washington silver series well enough to tell the difference.

put the two coins side by side, a pr69 and a pr70, and you will be able to tell the difference as well.

link to my retired (sold) pcgs registry set

cheers, Alan Mendelson
BestDealsTVshow.com

Zoins

A little while ago someone posted 2 PCGS MS70 and 2 PCGS MS69 AGEs. I could tell with ~80% accuracy. My first guess was correct but the MS70s also had flaws so it was an issue of deciding which flaws were worse.

TwoSides2aCoin

Differentiating between 2 grades is not hard.
Grading across the entire spectrum within the Sheldon Scale is the key.

NeoStar

I believe anyone has any opportunity to become the very best grader in whatever specialized series they chose and the 69/70 line is no different than any other 1 point line once one has mastered it.

Wondercoin

ttown

In my view there's just no perfect coin so PR/MS 69 should really be the highest level unless there's those few really special coins that stand out in the crowd. 69 is my faviorite number!

veryfine

How about distinguishing a 67 from a 68? Even if you are an "expert" in your series, it is often the case that you would send the "68" to your favorite grading service, only to be disappointed that it comes back as a 67 or even 66!

jmski52

So the naysayers thought that they would get an overwhelming negative response and instead - got some pretty good indications that there are indeed more than just a few people who have good batting averages in profiting from the differences between a 69 and a 70.

If you look at enough coins in the same series, you should be able to see the differences. I've stopped selling my raw coins and sets simply because I can't afford not to screen them and send them in for certification.

If you truly can't tell the difference between PR-69 and PR-70, then you probably have a difficult time grading any coin. Just my opinion, of course.

cmerlo1

I did get lucky in this sense a few weeks ago...I submitted a presidential proof set to NGC for grading and encapsulation in one of their multi-holders. One of the coins came back PR-70, the other 3 were 69's. I spent quite a bit of time comparing the 70 to the 69's. There definitely seems to be 'a look' for a 70 coin, but I'm not sure I could spot it every time, and that it would come back graded 70 every time...None of the four coins had a mark anywhere on them. The biggest difference was in the fields- the 70's were deep black with no distractions from metal flow anywhere...the 69's were deep, but had some flow lines.

--Christian

Merc

I was able to tell the 69s from the 70s in the PCGS grading contest for the modern coins. It can be done! A 69 will look just like a 70 except for 1 small flaw somewhere on the coin at 5x power. Still, I think the 70 grade is just a temporary grade. In time, a coin will develop some toing or spotting that will knock down the grade. Look at all the spotty SAE in high grade holders.

SeattleSlammer

In keeping with my genuine enthusiasm for bashing those that collect modern coins in 70, this thread is like a giant heap of affirmation.

Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! Dang, it went 69! (crack out)
Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! Dang, it went 69! (crack out)
Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! YES, IT WENT 70! Finally. Whew. Hey, wanna buy a 70?

ttown

I'm sure if you send in a graded PCGS coin in several times it will always come back a 70, right? Yea RIGHT.

57loaded

i am no expert, yet looking at 70's 69's 68's and 67's regarding ASE, i can be pretty good at telling why it was graded a ceratin way, but no way to send one in with the same bravado or certainty.

besides "defects" i would like to know if there are any telltails in the strike that would make that so called perfect grade as far as being clean wind up being a 69 soley because of a sign of a weaker strike.

ps to WonderCoin....can I borrow your kids to look through some 2006-W Z6F

wondercoin

"ps to WonderCoin....can I borrow your kids to look through some 2006-W Z6F"

"Winter hours" are now in effect - I only get them for an hour after school and Saturday mornings. But, the good news is they together can now screen about 200-300 coins an hour for the 69/70 line.

One other thing I wanted to mention - just because coins are screened for the 70 grade does not mean they are going to get it. One can be disappointed with grading results whether they are hunting for 70's or any other grade coin. If coins are screened properly, you are often times dealing with "liner" coins, which could go either way. If only 1 out of 20 carefully screened coins makes the 70 grade, that does not mean they were screened poorly (or PCGS did a bad job grading them) - just as making -1- MS67RD key date Lincoln cent out of -20- carefully screened high, high end MS66RD coins might be a good result.

Wondercoin

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>In keeping with my genuine enthusiasm for bashing those that collect modern coins in 70, this thread is like a giant heap of affirmation.

Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! Dang, it went 69! (crack out)
Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! Dang, it went 69! (crack out)
Could it be 70? It might go 70! Go 70! YES, IT WENT 70! Finally. Whew. Hey, wanna buy a 70?

>>



No, but I will trade you a non FirstStrike™ Proof 70 Deep Cameo 2007 S George Washington small dollar for a non FirstStrike™ Proof 70 Deep Cameo 2007 S James Madison small dollar. That would be nice of ya. That is... if you can differentiate the two

ziggy29

Show me a bona fide 70 and a WEAK 69, and yes, probably so. But a weak 70 and a strong 69, or even an *average* 70 and an *average* 69? Highly doubtful.

FatMan

For those who have mentioned they are capable of telling the difference between the PCGS 69/70 standards, I take you at your word. I learned a long time ago that one should not collect what they do not understand. I do not understand the difference as graded by PCGS, therefore I do not collect 70 graded coins. I strongly suggest to all collectors to live by this lesson.

I have complete sets of PCGS graded Modern Silver Commems and Proof Silver Eagles. I own a few 70s that I have made while keeping my 69 sets up to date, but the fact is I cannot tell the difference so the making of my 70s are more an accident than anything else.

IGWT

-- "Has anybody gotten to the point where they can fairly reliably detect the difference between a PR69 and a PR70?" --

At least one ex-professional grader has commented that the difference between receiving a 69 and a 70 is likely a matter of luck. But detecting the difference is no problem when you have the right tools: