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Is the future of numismatics at risk if collectors primarily use forums such as these for informatio
Longacre
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I have a grave concern for the future of numismatics. Because of human nature, people tend to take the easy way out of things or try to shortcut processes that typically take a long time. For example, let's take numismatic knowledge. I am surprised by the number of people here who say that they don't read no stinkin' numismatic books, and they get all of their coin information from forums such as these. As we have seen in the past week, all of the pump and dump information about the First Spouse coins spouted out by the sock puppets and Alts, can be very dangerous indeed.
Do you have any concerns about the future of numismatics and new collectors if they use these forums as their primary knowledge tools? Of course, there can be inaccuracies in books, but the writing and publishing of a book is usually a more methodical process, with many checks and balances along the way. Information on forums is free flowing, and subject to error. What do you think?
Do you have any concerns about the future of numismatics and new collectors if they use these forums as their primary knowledge tools? Of course, there can be inaccuracies in books, but the writing and publishing of a book is usually a more methodical process, with many checks and balances along the way. Information on forums is free flowing, and subject to error. What do you think?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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Numismatics will be fine. I feel that the people who get all their knowledge from these forums would essentially opt for getting no knowledge if these forums didn't exist. At least they are getting some useful information here (better than nothing at all.)
Also, don't forget that these forums have actually encouraged people to read books (that's what happened to me!)
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
2. How has anything related to the spouse coins been "dangerous"? They sold out and are now selling for a modest premium. What's the big deal?
And the funny thing about books is this: until you've consumed their contents, you don't know what you're missing. I fear that many of the folks here, despite an insatiable curiosity to learn more, seem to have a library whose contents can be counted on one hand, despite the ease of finding and purchasing THOUSANDS of standard references via internet booksellers and eBay.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
I didn't get rid of the really important sales like Garrett etc. but the other stuff had to go.
I think that this forum (and others) increases knowledge and stimulates numismatics. And if it gets just a handful of people out of 100 to read a book or do research on their own then we have acheived our goal. Then, hopefully those people will bring that knowledge back to these forums, to their constituencies, their elders, to their juniors etc.
Obviously, the danger comes from ther rest of that 100 who dont do their homework, we (numismatics) could lose those people. But is that bad? Not necessarily. Not everyone is supposed to be a numismatic scholar nor a collector. How many people became 'collectors' with the state quarters and the new presidential dollars? But just because they 'collect' these two series does not make them numismatic collectors; they are just responding to the marketing that surrounds these two programs. It is the handful of people that decide to look deeper that we welcome and embrace and in turn the ones that return for more.
Hopefully I did not ramble too much...
i think it wise to learn all you can about the hobby. i think the forums are a great place to learn but it is only a part and should be used in addtion to literature.
<< <i>Also, don't forget that these forums have actually encouraged people to read books (that's what happened to me!) >>
BINGO. The Redbook was pretty much my only coin book until I found these forums. Now most of my roll searching change goes into coinstar for Amazon gift certificates for books, and I just sent my first mail order bids to Lake Books. I have really started to enjoy reading anything and everything. Just like a coin budget, I have to keep a book budget too though. As long as there are $20 books out there I want to read, I don't need any $200 books yet
Longacre - I don't think there is anything wrong with somone only using the forums/Internet if they find what they're looking for. Take the Accented Hair Kennedys - Russ has a great webpage, and there are a few others out there, but with all the quality information, I doubt I would buy a book on AHK's unless it is something I someday specialize in.
But on the other hand, webpages can sometimes not give you the same experience as a book. I almost didn't buy Coppercoins "Looking through cents" book because I tried to rationalize I could get the info from his website and spend the $$ on a different book. I am glad I bought the book, it is so much more than just pictures.
I'm not for or against either method - if a person gets what they need, use the forums. If they want more, or desire a deeper understanding, 99% of the people know there are books out there and how to find them, that's up to them. There are some nice older books popping up on google's book project too - so there's the 3rd side to the coin as both worlds collide.
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Dennis (Dentuck) has outlined some excellent strategies for Whitman (and other information-based companies) in the numismatic market. Overall, numismatics will fare no worse than in the past if a majority of collectors rely on superficial, chat-room/message board postings. This isn’t much different than for other subjects and it simply means there will be increased stratification of knowledge. Those for whom hearsay, innuendo, rumor and fabrication are “facts” will gain more of the same; those with more critical thinking capability can still rely on Whitman and others to provide new information, new ideas and challenge the “accepted wisdom.”
The increase of superficial information sources does, however, give the scammers and hype-mongers a way to reach greater numbers of victims. Notice how such low-life have distorted common coin items such as the “golden” dollars, silver dollars, imitation coins, “GSA hoards” and a seemingly endless run of intentional distortion.
So, keep collecting southern mint gold, or Lincoln cents or whatever pleases – there will be knowledgeable researchers, comrades and buyers in the future.
collectors if they use these forums as their primary knowledge tools?"
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
No.
The internet is the "new library."
It is early, but we may actually see a hike in literacy rates
as more kids discover the internet. Young people stopped
reading books a long time ago. The medium is not really
relevant; getting the information distributed is all that
matters.
Hmmmm.........
1. Who are these sock puppies? Name names.
2. How has anything related to the spouse coins been "dangerous"? They sold out and are now selling for a modest premium. What's the big deal?
The future of numismatics is in danger because collectors are on this forum, exchanging info and ideas? And the First Spouses are dangerous?
Okay, I give. What's the agenda?
I knew it would happen.
I learned long to ago to not worry about things I can't change, and human nature is one of those things.
Seriously, people are better informed than ever. Fools are going to be fools no matter how many books are published. There are more numismatic books now, than 20 years ago. Yes, there are more scams than ever as well. However, on the Internet information travels fast. Topics such as enhanced coins (putty, lasers, accelerated toning), or low end for the grade coins in top tier holders, are rarely if ever discussed in books. If they are, by the time the information gets out there, the scammers are two years ahead and on to the next alteration, often already processing any book diagnostics so their altered coins can pass muster.
As for sock puppets, it seems they will always be with us. A well run sock puppet is undetectable to casual observers. The moderators don't have the time or resources to do a serious cleaning out. Even if they did, sock puppet folks have a lot of free time and decent imaginations, so will almost always stay one step ahead. As for what their agenda is, the agenda is to play the forum for marks and score some big bucks. Combine a sock puppet campaign and some well placed shill bids, and it can generate a lot of excitement. For those that say it can't be done, I say it is naive to say it can't. Stock market boards are full of them and over the years, millions of dollars have been scammed away. Some of these cases are very well documented. The coin market is a lot smaller, and easier to manipulate than the stock market. Coin collectors are no more intelligent than stock investors. Again, fools are going to be fools, no matter what the information source.
<< <i>"Do you have any concerns about the future of numismatics and new
collectors if they use these forums as their primary knowledge tools?"
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
No.
The internet is the "new library."
It is early, but we may actually see a hike in literacy rates
as more kids discover the internet. Young people stopped
reading books a long time ago. The medium is not really
relevant; getting the information distributed is all that
matters. >>
There are concerns in academic circles that too many students are just using the internet (primarily Google) to find out all of
the information they can on a subject and do not go to any other sources but that, to fight this trend some professors are requiring
certain information for a report that they know is not on the internet thereby forcing students to actually check out books and do
more indepth research that way. Google can make finding a lot of information very easy and creating lazy students in the process.
For collectors, there isn't so much an aversion to books (or learning) as a dislike for spending money on books. I've seen a collector drop $500 on a coin and then wail about the cost of a $50 book. I've seen 5 collectors quibble over how to split a $50 lunch bill. We are soooooo cheap as a group.
<< <i>Numismatics will survive. The value of my library of numismatic literature, however, will not.
And the funny thing about books is this: until you've consumed their contents, you don't know what you're missing. I fear that many of the folks here, despite an insatiable curiosity to learn more, seem to have a library whose contents can be counted on one hand, despite the ease of finding and purchasing THOUSANDS of standard references via internet booksellers and eBay. >>
As impotant as the reference books are, and they are important, the forums are vital too.....
In some instances, a forum member can point the way to the correct reference; in others, unpublished information might be provided.....
I've had occasion (on the darkside), to be in communication with the authors of various reference books; highly specialized collectors who can provide more information than some of the published works, etc.....
There is certainly room for both to co-exist...... New discoveries made and the information added to revised editions, etc....
References are VITAL, but so are public forums, both to provide that PUBLIC FORUM and also to provide a clearinghouse for information......
There is ALWAYS something to learn, and these forums provide the means to learn it....... Just think of it as an extension of your local dealer network or a worldwide coin club.........
When I started my Bust and Seated Dime collection, I went into Stacks and purchased 3 appropriate reference works.......
I now specialize in Great Britain Bronze & Copper..... There are published references available, as well as supplementary published works expanding upon those works.... HOWEVER, there are MANY NEWLY DISCOVERED varieties that have yet to be incorporated into revised editions.... In the interim, though, the internet, public forums, and the like, are tools to be used to diseminate and share this information.....
These forums are no less important than a reference book..... Both are vital to the hobby...... In another 20 years there will probably be something new available, and we will be having the same discussion about that venue at that time......
people interact, overall I think it is a good thing.
The internet is a conduit through which can flow useful, accurate information, or garbage, commercially tainted hype or anything in between. No one tries to check content for accuracy, as the paper encyclopedia companies attempt, or as peer reviewed journals do.
The internet is therefore less “library” than it is “magazines in the doctor’s office.”
Undoubtedly, forums such as this and NCG’s can help collectors connect with other hobbyists and professionals. This can promote the use of good sources of information provided the participants actually know what those sources are. These people-to-people connections are valuable in their own right and constitute, in my opinion, the primary benefit of internet access.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
A. Only if they read Saintguru's posts
Seriously. Just over a year ago I was wanting to get back into numismatics which I'd dabbled in as a kid. In my case, this forum actually has helped and encouraged me tremdously. I've met fellow collectors, bought, sold, and had fun. I give it a big
without books and original resource material then they are making an er-
ror. By the same token if you're waiting for the book to come out on every-
thing before you collect it then you may be waiting a very long time. At some
point someone has to just grab the bull by the horns and see if there's a ride
in the offing.
This is the first time I'm really at disagreement with the premise of one of
Longacre's threads. I believe this is being overthought here. If someone
suggests that a new issue will increase a great deal in price, it's mere op-
inion. If he says it must go higher or lower than it's an error in fact. If any-
one acts on the opinion then it's speculation. None of this has much to do
with numismatics except to the degree that someone buys the coin to study
or collect.
If you want one then it might be wise to buy it rather than wait for the book.
<< <i>I think the sky is falling and I need to buy more Twinkies.
Seriously, people are better informed than ever. Fools are going to be fools no matter how many books are published. There are more numismatic books now, than 20 years ago. Yes, there are more scams than ever as well. However, on the Internet information travels fast. Topics such as enhanced coins (putty, lasers, accelerated toning), or low end for the grade coins in top tier holders, are rarely if ever discussed in books. If they are, by the time the information gets out there, the scammers are two years ahead and on to the next alteration, often already processing any book diagnostics so their altered coins can pass muster.
As for sock puppets, it seems they will always be with us. A well run sock puppet is undetectable to casual observers. The moderators don't have the time or resources to do a serious cleaning out. Even if they did, sock puppet folks have a lot of free time and decent imaginations, so will almost always stay one step ahead. As for what their agenda is, the agenda is to play the forum for marks and score some big bucks. Combine a sock puppet campaign and some well placed shill bids, and it can generate a lot of excitement. For those that say it can't be done, I say it is naive to say it can't. Stock market boards are full of them and over the years, millions of dollars have been scammed away. Some of these cases are very well documented. The coin market is a lot smaller, and easier to manipulate than the stock market. Coin collectors are no more intelligent than stock investors. Again, fools are going to be fools, no matter what the information source. >>
Here I gotta disagree. Coin collectors are a mighty sharp bunch.
Other than rocket science forums and Mensa meetings it would be tough to find a sharper bunch.
Box of 20
<< <i>
There are concerns in academic circles that too many students are just using the internet (primarily Google) to find out all of
the information they can on a subject and do not go to any other sources but that, to fight this trend some professors are requiring
certain information for a report that they know is not on the internet thereby forcing students to actually check out books and do
more indepth research that way. Google can make finding a lot of information very easy and creating lazy students in the process. >>
If they got more books and resource material on the net and damatically
improved the performance of the search engines then the net would be
an ideal place to learn about nearly anything. It will probably take anot-
her twenty years though.
If someone uses these forums for all of their information, then they will learn the hard way, by making loads of mistakes.
<< <i>This forum is a learning tool, as are books, coin shows, dealers shops and clubs. Just one of many forums. Some will utilize all resources, some will not. Some will learn lessons by getting burned, others by using the tools/resources I have mentioned. The internet is just another, albeit newer, tool. Cheers, RickO >>
<< <i>Before the internet there was much less interaction between collectors, the ease of communication has made a huge difference in how
people interact, overall I think it is a good thing. >>
Case in point: More than once, in the past few years, New Discoveries have been made in my current area of specialization (darkside, Great Britain Copper & Bronze).... In the "OLD DAYS" worldwide comunications would have been limited to snail mail to exchange images etc.... Now the discoveries can be shared in minutes, the experts consulted, and the information be diseminated for ALL collectors later that same day.....
The Internet and the Forums have enhanced the ability to communicate, but it is still only a tool...... The user must still consider the source of whatever information they are gleaning.... Everything available on the Internet should NOT be accepted as gospel.....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I grew up with the red book and brown and dunn. >>
I still have my copies....
Although the comment appears sarcastically intended, the answer is that Breen and many other earlier researchers were often cross-checked by other collectors and researchers. This still occurs on a more limited scale today, with some writers distributing "comment copies” and drafts of articles and books to others who might be able to provide additional insights or catch errors. This is helpful whether the source material has been previously published, or is new to numismatists. It is, however, time consuming, often difficult to do and requires a certain degree of trust in the other party. Regrettably, many hobby articles are not peer reviewed, vetted, or, seemingly, read by anyone with basic numismatic knowledge. Thus quite a few neophytes reading certain "reliable" hobby publications can be mislead or confused by basic mistakes in content.
I apologize if the tone conveyed sarcasm. I was asking about Breen in particular as much of his work contained errors, and some of the research and source material now appears dubious. I agree that the internet is a mixed bag, but one of this forum's strengths is the easy access it provides to people who've dedicated a lifetime to research. Similarly, NGC's moderated forum is a useful tool, as is Coneca's site, and others. I'd expect most of the material is as well vetted as much of what's written, but my opinion isn't based on personal research.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Only if they read your posts!!
(Sorry, but that was too easy to resist!
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Numismatists are more studious.
The forums give us the freedom to share experiences, opinions and knowledge, and they're a place for social interaction. Some problems faced with sharing this information and dissemination of information from Specialists are the "challenges" from people who are vocal and know nothing except to stir up trouble or create controversy, thereby diluting the subject into a HUMAN interaction rather than a Numismatic one.
Books are necessary as well as the promotion of them and direction to them.
Too much social interaction doesn't leave time for study, but I really don't think the future of Numismatics is at risk until collectors stop caring about money
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I have had the pleasure to visit with, and view the collections of major, passionate collectors. These individuals obtained, and continue to grow their knowledge, not from these forums, but from hard intensive hours of
1. Viewing thousands of coins in hand
2. Comparing their thoughts on grading with experts in the series.
3. Having the the best dealers in their series buy coins for their collections, knowing their needs and financial abilities.
4. Becoming independent in their opinions of grade and price, by attending shows, & major auctions( including previewing all auction lots of interest).
For the collector who wishes to become proficient in his/her series, and advance the cause of Numismatics, attending these Forums is the last knowledge one needs.
But for talking with other collectors, it is great.
<< <i>I have a grave concern for the future of numismatics. Because of human nature, people tend to take the easy way out of things or try to shortcut processes that typically take a long time. For example, let's take numismatic knowledge. I am surprised by the number of people here who say that they don't read no stinkin' numismatic books, and they get all of their coin information from forums such as these. As we have seen in the past week, all of the pump and dump information about the First Spouse coins spouted out by the sock puppets and Alts, can be very dangerous indeed.
Do you have any concerns about the future of numismatics and new collectors if they use these forums as their primary knowledge tools? Of course, there can be inaccuracies in books, but the writing and publishing of a book is usually a more methodical process, with many checks and balances along the way. Information on forums is free flowing, and subject to error. What do you think? >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's easy to tell by reading these forums who are the potential TRUE future coin collectors,, and who are flippers, and who are just plain Ignorant,, greedy,, mean spirited,. paranoid,, jealous,, misinformed,, hateful,, delibertly misleading,, and or just plain jerks... .... My mama use to tell me... "If you don't have anything good to say about someone.. Then don't say anything at all".... That is easier to say than to do...I,, personaly get small bits and pieces of good honest informative information/insight/humor, from this forum from time to time... But,, you have to just pass by the mean spirited crap.. The sad thing is when someone who does not know any better believes all the negitive crap, and takes it to heart, and as the total truth.... This is the poison
<< <i>I tend to agree with Longacre, to the extent that if most of your knowledge about coins( strike variance due to mint, AT vs NT, prices for rarities, what series are hot, and good values, what modern coins have a reasonabler chance for profit) is due to your reading threads here, YOU, not Numismatics, are in trouble.
I have had the pleasure to visit with, and view the collections of major, passionate collectors. These individuals obtained, and continue to grow their knowledge, not from these forums, but from hard intensive hours of
1. Viewing thousands of coins in hand
2. Comparing their thoughts on grading with experts in the series.
3. Having the the best dealers in their series buy coins for their collections, knowing their needs and financial abilities.
4. Becoming independent in their opinions of grade and price, by attending shows, & major auctions( including previewing all auction lots of interest).
For the collector who wishes to become proficient in his/her series, and advance the cause of Numismatics, attending these Forums is the last knowledge one needs.
But for talking with other collectors, it is great. >>
Great answer, Dale, and I am glad to hear that you are okay.
You have outlined the blueprint for a successful collection.
The forum is primarily for socializing, and secondarily for superficial coin knowledge. If you want to get serious, you need to do numbers 1-4 above.
Is the forum perfect... not really... but it is significantly better than not having it at all.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>You left out the most important aspect......."Have deep pockets." As such, it eliminates a majority of ordinary present day collectors. >>
No,,,, This is the whole misunderstanding.......It's not about Having MONEY to collect 'Money',,, It's not about Collecting For a Profit'.. It's about the Beauty.... The Art... The History... The 'CHASE'..................... It's about the Desire,, The Selfish Desire...... Only till Your eaten up with the need,, the Want,, N,, Desire,, Will you ever become A 'True Collector'.....
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