My first Paypal dispute, guess the outcome...
AlteredTone
Posts: 304
Shipped several proof sets to a guy via USPS Priority Mail. Used Paypal shipping, shipped to confirmed address. Buyer was offered insurance, but refused.
Delivery confirmation shows not delivered after two weeks. He opened a dispute with Paypal. I escalated to a claim.
Total cost of items was $130.
So what is it going to be:
(1) I lose
(2) He loses
(3) Paypal loses
???
Delivery confirmation shows not delivered after two weeks. He opened a dispute with Paypal. I escalated to a claim.
Total cost of items was $130.
So what is it going to be:
(1) I lose
(2) He loses
(3) Paypal loses
???
0
Comments
Is it still enroute?
99% of the time, paypal will side with the buyer, so you will reimburse him/get the paypal reversed.
Insurance would have protected you, not him. Not sure what recourse you can pursue through the PO, but the bidder will be made whole, I am fairly sure of that.
If you go read most of the similar threads in the last few years, the shipper/seller almost always last posts that insurance will be mandatory from now on to protect themselves.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>1) You lose.
99% of the time, paypal will side with the buyer, so you will reimburse him/get the paypal reversed.
Insurance would have protected you, not him. Not sure what recourse you can pursue through the PO, but the bidder will be made whole, I am fairly sure of that.
If you go read most of the similar threads in the last few years, the shipper/seller almost always last posts that insurance will be mandatory from now on to protect themselves. >>
make sure that the item purchased through EBAY
is delivered as sold.
There is nothing wrong with trying to talk the uninformed
buyer into paying for the USPS insurance, but when they
refuse to do so the experienced seller buys it anyway.
As as buyer, the only insurance I need is PayPal and my
credit card.
And if you have a COD that originates outta that area... it could be months before the post office gets around to sending the money!
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Absolutely.
PayPal routinely grants sellers extra time (up to 30-days)
for delivery to be accomplished.
Bumping up to a claim, when delivery is still likely, is always
a mistake for sellers. (Buyers, OTOH, should try to escalate
to a claim as rapidly as possible.)
<< <i>(3) Paypal loses
??? >>
Even if it were insured, it'd be too early to initiate a claim with the post office.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
http://216.138.164.31/t/67/476549/
entire fiasco. Either eat the dollar or two and pay for insurance or charge more money for shipping in the future. If the buyer didn't receive his coin
I'm afraid you'll probably lose.
Bruce
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
insurance covers YOUR ass. Don't make it an option, make it included in S&H.
I hope it turns out well for you.
Good Luck to you.
<< <i>You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller. >>
I was just about to say the same thing...
<< <i>You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller. >>
Yup. And cheapass buyers routinely decline insurance knowing Paypal will cover their ass.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Yup. And cheapass buyers routinely decline insurance knowing Paypal will cover their ass. >>
Why call the buyer a cheapass? Do you voluntairly pay for something you don't have to pay for?
For the umpteenth time - insurance is for the seller, not the buyer.
You jumped the gun on the claim though. What are you claiming? The BUYER should file a claim to get their money back, but not before 30 days have passed. I've had Priority Mail take 3 weeks before. Sometimes things get lost for a while. How did you package this item? You're might silent after your initial post. I expect shortly that you'll post that you'll make insurance a part of your normal shipping routine from now on. Just add that cost to your shipping & INSURANCE cost on each item.
Jonathan
confimation, A few of my packages I never recieved, After 3 Weeks or more, The Seller told me to go to the post office, and sure enough
it was at my local post office In LIMBO Just sitting there never recieved a slip in the mail box or anything Just sitting there!!!!
So sometimes our Wonderful Post Office Just forgets about them ! Good luck
So someone remind me again - just what in the hell are they taking our money for?
You ever stop to figure just how much these SOBs make every single day, day after day?
Best remedy - turn the friggin' tables. As money is funneled into our accounts drain the damned things dry every stinking day. Let's see how they like that!
<< <i>So, just what is this Sellers' Protection Plan? If we do all we are supposed to, of what value is PayPal to us, without whom they wouldn't have Squat?
So someone remind me again - just what in the hell are they taking our money for?
You ever stop to figure just how much these SOBs make every single day, day after day?
Best remedy - turn the friggin' tables. As money is funneled into our accounts drain the damned things dry every stinking day. Let's see how they like that!
Well, I like to have money in my account for purchases. I keep my coin money separate from my "real" money and also like the high interest PayPal pays me for keeping my money in my account.
As a seller the fees they charge are for being able to accept instant payments. If you don't like it, get a merchant account and take credit cards yourself. See how you like those fees.
I am not a salesperson for PayPal. I actually had them freeze my account for 3 months several years ago and I still have a little trouble trusting them. But the class action suit did pay me a bit of cash, so they did sort of make it right.
If you don't like PayPal fees, again, try accepting credit cards on your own and pay those fees or only accept checks and/or money orders. I know of several sellers that do that.
Jonathan
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>you will lose. >>
Yup...you will lose, if delivery confirmation does not show up as item delivered, but I believe PayPal will allow you more time in hopes that it will be delivered. 2 weeks is not enought time to file a claim.
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
<< <i>Why call the buyer a cheapass? Do you voluntairly pay for something you don't have to pay for? >>
No, if the buyer voluntarily declines the insurance, then ethically, he should accept the consequences of the gamble, especially if the seller has proof the package was mailed (i.e. delivery confirmation receipt). The cheapass buyer who declines insurance knowing Paypal will cover him is trying to get insurance for nothing, which is unethical. However, because of the way Paypal is structured, buyers can game the system, but it does not make it right.
<< <i>For the umpteenth time - insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. >>
Well, the numerous sellers who make insurance optional obviously do not realize this.
<< <i>Well, the numerous sellers who make insurance optional obviously do not realize this. >>
Obviously!
<< <i>
<< <i>Why call the buyer a cheapass? Do you voluntairly pay for something you don't have to pay for? >>
No, if the buyer voluntarily declines the insurance, then ethically, he should accept the consequences of the gamble, especially if the seller has proof the package was mailed (i.e. delivery confirmation receipt). The cheapass buyer who declines insurance knowing Paypal will cover him is trying to get insurance for nothing, which is unethical. However, because of the way Paypal is structured, buyers can game the system, but it does not make it right.
<< <i>For the umpteenth time - insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. >>
Well, the numerous sellers who make insurance optional obviously do not realize this. >>
No. The cheapass SELLER should pay for the insurance or make it mandatory. If you are worried about a higher amount of SHI causing less bids or a lower price, then deal with it.
When you buy from Amazon, LLBean, etc, do you get to choose insurance in the shipping? I didn't think so.
If you ship it, and you can't afford the loss, then YOU insure it.
Too many people wanting to point fingers and have their cake and eat it too. You sell it, YOU make sure it gets to the buyer or YOU eat the loss (or get the item replaced if you had insurance).
How hard is it to understand that people? Ethics don't come into play if the buyer never received it, even if insurance was offered and declined.
If you are losing money by selling and including insurance, then DON'T SELL...you suck at it!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Once the PayPal dispte is opened, the PayPal transaction shows as a hold status. Meaning, the USPO will not accept a copy of the PayPal transaction as proof of payment being made. The PayPal transaction must show as completed to be acceptable by the USPO. >>
The only way the post office would even know that is if you told them. Otherwise, you just provide a copy of the original PayPal transaction receipt.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller. >>
Yup. And cheapass buyers routinely decline insurance knowing Paypal will cover their ass. >>
I really resent this comment. The insurance does NOTHING for the buyer. It's to protect the seller. As a buyer why would I want to spend more money when I get zero value in return?
<< <i>Shipped several proof sets to a guy via USPS Priority Mail. Used Paypal shipping, shipped to confirmed address. Buyer was offered insurance, but refused.
Delivery confirmation shows not delivered after two weeks. He opened a dispute with Paypal. I escalated to a claim.
Total cost of items was $130.
So what is it going to be:
(1) I lose
(2) He loses
(3) Paypal loses
??? >>
I am not psychic or anything, but I see you buying a large jar of vaseline on this one!
<< <i>Under the PayPal scheme, the seller is obligated to
make sure that the item purchased through EBAY
is delivered as sold.
There is nothing wrong with trying to talk the uninformed
buyer into paying for the USPS insurance, but when they
refuse to do so the experienced seller buys it anyway.
As as buyer, the only insurance I need is PayPal and my
credit card. >>
What is the seller states in the item desciption that he will not be held liable for items that are not delivered or are damaged? Is the seller still held liable???
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
held liable for items that are not delivered or are damaged? Is the
seller still held liable??? "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
Sellers must deliver items as sold. NONE of their
written nonsense changes that fact.
<< <i>Your screwed! Paypal has buyer protection and zippo seller protection when push comes to shove. >>
It is pretty clear cut in about every case where delivery can not be proven. Paypal, credit cards, even my bank has a online shopping protection thing which can reverse my personal check being payed after the fact if I don't get the item.
Even for those who didn't use one of the above methods (money order, cash <god forbid> or some other form) if it goes to court, they will win. For those of you saying who wants to pay court costs for something silly - many states will now add the court costs to the winners verdict, so not spending $1.30 for insurance for that $20 item in the long run can end up costing you hundreds or more. I really don't see why eBay doesn't just make it mandatory to begin with.
Fatman said it best: "The UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) clearly places the responsibility of delivery on the seller. In fact, no transaction exists until the buyer takes physical possession."
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
What is the seller states in the item desciption that he will not be held liable for items that are not delivered or are damaged? Is the seller still held liable??? >>
If it's a paypal transaction...YES. In the real world many sellers will offer insurance to the buyers with the understanding that the buyer is taking the risk. But with paypal the seller is forced to buy insurance or risk losing on every single package. We stopped taking paypal years ago and have never been happier. As a longtime visa/mc merchant, we don't need them. Life gives us enough hoops to jump through, paypal makes it exponentially more difficult.
tradernick
Tradernicks Coins & Collectibles
<< <i>depending on the value you should always insure that way you can never lose. >>
Never lose? Simple math indicates otherwise! A group of 4 of us mostly selling modern coins have this experience: out of about 4,000 lots shipped over 4-5 years, we have had about 10 "lost in the mail".
Say the average value was $75 for each shipment: insurance would cost almost $10,000 assuming all were insured. Weigh that against roughly $750 in out of pocket losses.
The USPS is good enough that we all lose!
Any wonder that some of us "self-insure"?
I do (under $200, unless I do not trust the buyer for some reason), and I will try not to let my testosterone (what I have left at 66) get in the way of a polite no-question refund of all costs to the buyer if shipment has not arrived in 30 days. "Will" because it has not yet happened in nearly 1,000 shipments. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>But with paypal the seller is forced to buy insurance or risk losing every single package. We stopped taking paypal years ago and have never been happier. As a longtime visa/mc merchant, we don't need them. >>
As a longtime Visa/Mastercard merchant, you have to meet exactly the same requirements as PayPal. If you process a credit card transaction and the buyer files a chargeback, you have to prove delivery to the billing address - just like PayPal.
Russ, NCNE
I had a buyer make a claim where I sent to a confirmed address using Priority Mail, and delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation showed he reccieved it. I did NOT use "signature" confirmation.
He filed a claim, and I lost.
I dealt with Rob at Paypal, and he told me that without signature confimation, I lose, no matter what, even if the buyer gave me positive feedback, and even if i had e-mails confirming the delivery. (though I had neither). Without "Signature Confirmation" you lose, period.
PLUS this dude Rob at Paypal was really getting his jollies telling me this, no kidding, he was really rude and sarcastic about it. I couldn't belive how crass he was. That is how I know all this, he basically said to me "I don't care if you have tracking, or if it is confirmed he recieved it. I don't care if you have e-mails from him saying you have it, or even if you have positive feedback from him. The rules say signature confirmation, and without it, they buyer wins."
SO, if you did not do the Signature Confirmation part, you lose. And believe me, I've been there, and feel for ya. Let me add that any type of "signed" verification, if it can be documented is usually acceptable, not ust the USPS version.
I am convinced that there are ebay buyers who intentionally set you up for this. Beware, I was set up, and lost almost $600.
Oh, and if you ever meet Rob from Paypal, please slap him up-side the head for me.
If you use Paypal's postage/shipping label generator, it clearly states that Signature Guarantee is required for amounts of $250.
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I ONLY sell on EBAY, unless I can REALLY steal something.
The buyers are just being smart, when they refuse to pay
extra for insurance.
The sellers are the ones who are being "cheap" when they
fail to insure items.
The buyer receives ZERO benefit from insurance, provided
he/she pays with PayPal or a credit-card.
<< <i>
<< <i>Under the PayPal scheme, the seller is obligated to
make sure that the item purchased through EBAY
is delivered as sold.
There is nothing wrong with trying to talk the uninformed
buyer into paying for the USPS insurance, but when they
refuse to do so the experienced seller buys it anyway.
As as buyer, the only insurance I need is PayPal and my
credit card. >>
What is the seller states in the item desciption that he will not be held liable for items that are not delivered or are damaged? Is the seller still held liable??? >>
Yes, and they should be (and, I sell as well, so I am not just talking as a buyer).
Pay for the insurance or make it mandatory.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment