<< <i>You do not state whether there was Signature Confirmation. If not, you lose, period.
I had a buyer make a claim where I sent to a confirmed address using Priority Mail, and delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation showed he reccieved it. I did NOT use "signature" confirmation.
He filed a claim, and I lost.
I dealt with Rob at Paypal, and he told me that without signature confimation, I lose, no matter what, even if the buyer gave me positive feedback, and even if i had e-mails confirming the delivery. (though I had neither). Without "Signature Confirmation" you lose, period.
PLUS this dude Rob at Paypal was really getting his jollies telling me this, no kidding, he was really rude and sarcastic about it. I couldn't belive how crass he was. That is how I know all this, he basically said to me "I don't care if you have tracking, or if it is confirmed he recieved it. I don't care if you have e-mails from him saying you have it, or even if you have positive feedback from him. The rules say signature confirmation, and without it, they buyer wins."
SO, if you did not do the Signature Confirmation part, you lose. And believe me, I've been there, and feel for ya. Let me add that any type of "signed" verification, if it can be documented is usually acceptable, not ust the USPS version.
I am convinced that there are ebay buyers who intentionally set you up for this. Beware, I was set up, and lost almost $600.
Oh, and if you ever meet Rob from Paypal, please slap him up-side the head for me. >>
According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>But with paypal the seller is forced to buy insurance or risk losing every single package. We stopped taking paypal years ago and have never been happier. As a longtime visa/mc merchant, we don't need them. >>
As a longtime Visa/Mastercard merchant, you have to meet exactly the same requirements as PayPal. If you process a credit card transaction and the buyer files a chargeback, you have to prove delivery to the billing address - just like PayPal.
Russ, NCNE >>
Just to set the record straight again, Paypal, Credit Cards, Banks, ebay, or any other entity involved in the transaction must find in favor of the buyer if the seller cannot prove delivery. And proof requires a signature at the delivery address. It is the law of the land, not any scheme or attempt to screw sellers. About the only time you can bypass the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) is if you are not a merchant and the transaction takes place with buyer and seller in the same state. Anytime a third party is involved ie: ebay, bank by way of check or Credit Card, paypal, whatever or the transaction is interstate in nature the UCC rules. That is unless you can get all parties involved (buyer, seller, bank, ebay, credit card company, paypal, etc.) to sign off on specific terms to the sale in question in advance. Bottom line, seller is responsible for delivery and without delivery the transaction did not take place. You can put all the disclaimers in place you want it doesn't matter. You lose.
The whole purpose of the UCC was to make a common set of rules that all businesses are required to follow. It is a good thing. Otherwise lawyers would have a field day with every transaction and you would spend your entire life reading fine print just to buy a five dollar item.
<< <i>According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal. >>
Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
As some have stated they have had 1000's of transactions with never a packaged lost.
I too can confirm this. At $1.00 per transaction that is $1000's of dollars spent on insurance.
So last year I started added insurance to my shipping fee and most times do not indicate that in the auction. (because insurance is for me and not the buyer)
I have had a few buyers ask how much to insure the package, so I would tell them and then insure it.
At one point last year I stopped insuring items and put away the insurance fee. The amount of money soon climbed to $200 at which point I stopped doing it and now I only ship insured if I do not want to assume the risk (so far the risk has been 0, none lost) or have a bad feeling about the buyer for whatever reason.
Signature confirmation has recently been something I am doing more often even on items under $250. The cost is $1.90 versus $.80-.90 for deliovery confirmation.
I think it makes sense in the long run not to insure items but that would depend on well you can sleep without it and how often you ship items and at what cost.
This is a subject that has been discussed over and over again and will continue in the future. We need to be convinced in our own mind what is right for us and do it.
<< delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount. >>
Affirmative and when you get right down to it, so is Priority Mail, INSURED & with Signature Confirmation.
Case & Point:
The carriers that delivered to my old address were screwing up constantly, for NO good reason.
Scenario - A fellow Board Member went through a LOT of trouble & expense to send a fairly large amount of coins to me at the old residence 2016 W. O SP Trl and after personally checking Track & Confirm, it showed I had received the pkg AND signed for it. I became quite livid.
I went down the road and like so many times before, right there at 2106 W. O SP Trl there sat my package all friggin' weekend. Anyone could have simply opened the box and taken all those coins.
Monday rolled around and I had the Postmaster come down and witness it's whereabouts personally. I DEMANDED to see my so-called Signature. Naturally there was none. The carrier had scribbled something that resembled a signature byt it sure as hell wasn't mine! I documented the entire situation with Camcorder.
Oh, to make matters worse, the sender had even paid for a return receipt to show that I had signed for it. After I was done with the local Postmaster I went to the State Postmaster's Office and ultimately THE Postmaster General's and filed a formal complaint against my stupid ass carriers, none of whom presently work in that capacity anymore.
The ONLY sure fire way to cover your ass is to send Registered Insured as PayPal's so called Seller's Protection Plan is about as useless as teets on a Boar Hog. Just thought I'd share that with you.
As for the question, I hope I'm wrong but I am with everyone else on this one. I'm sorry for your loss but I believe you lose. From now on incorporate Insurance into your listings. Make it mandatory/ no choices - included in the rate you charge.
You seem to be very passsionate about this subject.
In its simplest form isn't it the responsibility of the buyer to get payment to the seller and the seller's responsibility to get the item in the condition it was sold to the buyer.
The ethical breakdown begins with whomever doesn't fulfill their part.
<< <i>Given the way Paypal is set up, the seller just needs to REQUIRE insurance at all times instead of making it optional. >>
It has nothing to do with how paypal is set up. It has to do with the law of the land. Paypal has no option but to find in favor of the buyer. See my other posts regarding the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). You are correct, the seller should insure every package he sends. Or at least send the package uninsured with signature confirmation if he choses to self insure. He should list the appropriate postage in his auction description. Where most problems come into play is that the sellers are charging outrageous shipping charges and then pulling this insurance is optional BS. If sellers just charged what it actually cost this would not be much of an issue.
You seem to be very passsionate about this subject.
In its simplest form isn't it the responsibility of the buyer to get payment to the seller and the seller's responsibility to get the item in the condition it was sold to the buyer.
The ethical breakdown begins with whomever doesn't fulfill their part.
Rookie Joe >>
Frankly, I don't care. I don't actively sell on ebay and if I did, I would require insurance.
However, ebay allows the seller to make insurance optional, and technically they give the seller the "option" to not pay for insurance. Ethically, if a buyer declines insurance, he should be willing to assume the risk of loss or damage, especially if the seller provides proof that the item was mailed. However, buyers who know how Paypal works may decline insurance and then file a Paypal chargback if they lose. This is unethical, because if they were not willing to assume the risk they should have purchased insurance, instead of, in effect, getting "free" insurance for gaming the Paypal system.
Also, as a buyer I look at it this way -- If a cherrypick a $300 coin for $75, and insurance is optional, do I want to risk not receiving the coin if I decline insurance? I'd rather have the $300 coin than the $75 Paypal chargeback.
The ONLY sure fire way to cover your ass is to send Registered Insured as PayPal's so called Seller's Protection Plan is about as useless as teets on a Boar Hog. Just thought I'd share that with you.
Actually, this doesn't work either. If the buyer files a non-receipt claim (even though they did receive and sign the registered mail slip), PayPal will find in the buyer's favor because they require the ability to confirm receipt on-line (neither Registered or Insured provide this). PayPal will take the money away from you and give it to the buyer. You will similarly be left holding the bag with the USPS. Because the buyer signed for the package, they will deny your insurance claim.
"(Buyers) are just gaming the way Paypal is set up, which they can get away with, but is unethical. Given the way Paypal is set up, the seller just needs to REQUIRE insurance at all times instead of making it optional."
ALL the more reason for sellers to make sure that packages are insured.
The easiest way is to simply include the insurance-fee in the S+H quote.
I offer "FREE" insured-mailing on all EBAY items. The buyer is paying for it because it is included in the price of the item. (NOTE: This scheme does not always work well for auctions. I do 99.9% BINs.)
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Has anyone ever been involved in a transaction other than an ebay transaction where the seller says he is not liable if the buyer declines insurance? There may be a few out there somewhere, but I have never even seen this practice used elsewhere, much less been involved in it. Wake up sellers!
Just to set the record straight again, Paypal, Credit Cards, Banks, ebay, or any other entity involved in the transaction must find in favor of the buyer if the seller cannot prove delivery. And proof requires a signature at the delivery address. It is the law of the land, not any scheme or attempt to screw sellers. About the only time you can bypass the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) is if you are not a merchant and the transaction takes place with buyer and seller in the same state. Anytime a third party is involved ie: ebay, bank by way of check or Credit Card, paypal, whatever or the transaction is interstate in nature the UCC rules. That is unless you can get all parties involved (buyer, seller, bank, ebay, credit card company, paypal, etc.) to sign off on specific terms to the sale in question in advance. Bottom line, seller is responsible for delivery and without delivery the transaction did not take place. You can put all the disclaimers in place you want it doesn't matter. You lose.
The whole purpose of the UCC was to make a common set of rules that all businesses are required to follow. It is a good thing. Otherwise lawyers would have a field day with every transaction and you would spend your entire life reading fine print just to buy a five dollar item.
Well put and exactly the case. However, the crux of the issue around PayPal is what constitutes proof of delivery. For their purposes, they have narrowly defined that to be something that is verifiable online, etc. etc. which essentially reduces it to Signature Confirmation in the case of USPS (although Express may also apply -- haven't checked or thought about that). All of the other parties (credit cards, banks, etc.) will look at a variety of evidence of receipt (e.g., Registered Mail signature, Insured Mail signature, email from buyer, etc.).
So, in short, the shipper's obligation remains the same (proof of delivery) but when PayPal is used the shipper greatly narrows the scope of acceptable proof of delivery. While no one has articulated this as the issue, I believe it really is the crux of the problem and I believe that PayPal's construction of proof of delivery is overly narrow. However, those are the rules they have established.
In my case, I feel the value of having PayPal as a payment method on eBay auctions greatly outweighs the risks and concerns around proof of delivery and thus continue to offer it as a payment method for eBay sales. However, no where else is PayPal so dominate as the means of payment. Therefore, largely because of the concern around proof of delivery, I no longer accept PayPal for purchases where it is not already the dominate payment method. For example, for several years it was an optional payment method on our website shopping cart. However, ecommerce outside of eBay fuctions very well without PayPal using credit cards. When we eliminated it as a website payment method several months ago no one seemed to notice and no one has complained since.
ALL the more reason for sellers to make sure that packages are insured.
The easiest way is to simply include the insurance-fee in the S+H quote.
Insurance covers you from loss of the parcel by the carrier. Insurance does not cover you from the unethical buyer who receives the package but claims he did not. This is the case whether or not you accepted payment by PayPal.
<< <i>According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal. >>
Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ ... Now I'm confused...the following is from PayPal's Seller Protection Policy
11. A Chargeback is covered if it was due to non-receipt of merchandise, or an unauthorized payment.
11.3 Qualification Requirements. In order to qualify for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements: a. You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,
h. You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an approved shipping to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>If the buyer files a non-receipt claim (even though they did receive and sign the registered mail slip), PayPal will find in the buyer's favor because they require the ability to confirm receipt on-line (neither Registered or Insured provide this). PayPal will take the money away from you and give it to the buyer. You will similarly be left holding the bag with the USPS. Because the buyer signed for the package, they will deny your insurance claim.
Yes, but not to the standard required for PayPal. For PayPal, it must be "signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online". The online Registered Mail information is like this:
"Your item was delivered at X:XX pm on XXXX XX, 200X in Xxxxxxxxx, XX XXXXX. A proof of delivery record may be available through your local Post Office for a fee. "
This effectively renders Registered Mail equivalent to Delivery Confirmation for PayPal purposes. It will not suffice for amounts over $250. It might be fine for amounts under $250 although PayPal's website does not definitively state which USPS services are acceptable under $250 and their representatives will also not state an acceptable USPS service for packages with values under $250.
"Insurance covers you from loss of the parcel by the carrier. Insurance does not cover you from the unethical buyer who receives the package but claims he did not. This is the case whether or not you accepted payment by PayPal."
If a crooked buyer claims he did not receive a package - but actually did - he will be having a chat with the USPS postal inspector when I file my insurance claim.
Insurance covers "lost packages." If the buyer lies about the issue to the PI, the seller still gets paid on the claim.
Delivery Confirmation does NOT constitute "proof" of delivery to the USPS. They well recognize that many parcels are delivered to the wrong address. They will still pay a claim, if DC shows delivery, AND the buyer claims non-receipt; they simply investigate and make a decision.
I have never had USPS deny a claim.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Somehow you're still not understanding the situation with a crooked buyer.
A crooked buyer is going to file his claim with PayPal and get his money back for them. He is not going to entertain you while you make your claim with the PO. In fact, the only communication you'll get with him is through the PayPal dispute resolution system.
If you have a crooked buyer he is going to tell PayPal he did not receive the package. They are going to refund his money because you don't have proof of delivery. He won't be talking to the PI because you will not hear from him again. He won't tell the PO he didn't get the package and won't sign the insurance claim form when you sent it to him. All he has to do is log into his PayPal account and state there that he did not get it. Then you are toast.
Hey Wayne are you still planning on being in Long Beach in a few weeks?
With Jimmy?
I have a few things I want to show ya-
not to take away from the thread-
I recently had an issue with a seller for being a PITA- she never sent the item and after 30 days refunded my $$ probably due to the stupid emails she sent and were copied back to both paypal and Ebay- but nonetheless- if the dispute is legit- paypal gets the $$ back to the buyer and the buyer has little alternative in the matter unless he has signed proof of the delivery.
Insurance is good for the seller- unless the buyer paid not using paypal but the old fashion way- check or MO- then the insurance can work in both favors- the aseller is protected via the claim that must be filed and the buyer will get his refund once paperwork has been filed and of course the PO has completed there investigation into the matter.
Which does not appear to be the case here, unfortunately.
Once PayPal declares the package "lost," the USPS insurance claim is guaranteed to finish in the money.
The PayPal resolution-notice is the only non-USPS doc you need to open a USPS claim for non-delivery. The signature of the corruptnik is not required; the PI will go to his address, and attempt to interview him. If the bad guy refuses to talk, the claim will still be paid. The USPS may or may not pursue the crook; absent a confession, proof is difficult.
The item is insured against "loss." The seller is the beneficiary of the insurance. An item not delivered as addressed, is lost; the insurance pays.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
storm888, okay I'll guess I'll have to take your word for it. I've never tried to file a claim based on the PayPal non-receipt only. The form I've seen requires the addressee's signature and PO clerks won't even take the form without it from my experience.
MORGANHUNTER2, yes, I'll be at LB and JMS is sharing the table again.
Yes, but not to the standard required for PayPal. For PayPal, it must be "signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online". The online Registered Mail information is like this:
"Your item was delivered at X:XX pm on XXXX XX, 200X in Xxxxxxxxx, XX XXXXX. A proof of delivery record may be available through your local Post Office for a fee. "
This effectively renders Registered Mail equivalent to Delivery Confirmation for PayPal purposes. It will not suffice for amounts over $250. It might be fine for amounts under $250 although PayPal's website does not definitively state which USPS services are acceptable under $250 and their representatives will also not state an acceptable USPS service for packages with values under $250.
WH >>
That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice?
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
<< <i> Fatman said it best: "The UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) clearly places the responsibility of delivery on the seller. In fact, no transaction exists until the buyer takes physical possession." >>
Too bad that's not what the UCC says.....
"the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier"
While credit cards and Paypal operate under special rules, under the UCC (and maritime law going back 500 years) once the seller loads it on the ship, the UPC truck, or hands it to the clerk at the post office, the buyer owns it, and YES insurance protects the BUYER while HIS PROPERTY is being shipped to him.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>It has nothing to do with how paypal is set up. It has to do with the law of the land. Paypal has no option but to find in favor of the buyer. See my other posts regarding the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). >>
Ah...it's the Fair Credit Billing Act administered by the Federal Trade Commission, not the UCC.
<< <i>Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
Russ, NCNE >>
You, Sir, are incorrect. The seller is protected against claims of non-delivery for any reason if the non-signature delivery confirmation shows "delivered" and the amount is under $250
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
If I sell anything over $10.00 . Insurance is included in the shipping and handling.
Using Paypal shipping you can insure to $500.00 If its over 500.00, I go to the post office.
Always confirm delivery and insure , it protects you. If its over 100.00 , I get signature confirmation and also include that in shipping costs. Costs are stated in the auction and not negotiable. I charge postal costs plus 1.00 on most items. I can safely pack just about anything for about a dollar.
Shipping is not a way I make any money, for some sellers it makes more money than the auction , and thats just as wrong as the guy who complains about insurance costs and signature confirmation.
In this case after 3 weeks and delivery is not confirmed you probably will be charged back.
You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller.
Tom always makes sense. As a seller, you should always mandate insurance..
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i> Fatman said it best: "The UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) clearly places the responsibility of delivery on the seller. In fact, no transaction exists until the buyer takes physical possession." >>
Too bad that's not what the UCC says.....
"the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier" >>
Too bad you were reading about a Shipment Contract, and not the general provision of the UCC which says...
"The U.C.C. provides that, unless a contrary agreement is explicitly made, title passes to the buyer at the time the goods are physically delivered to the buyer."
The shipment contract is a contrary agreement. A typical shipment contract is "FOB Atlanta" for a shipment to Dallas. Yes, in that arrangement risk of loss is transfered upon transfer to the common carrier in Atlanta.
<< <i>We have concluded our investigation and have determined that the buyer is due a refund. >>
So put my in the camp of "everything goes with mandatory insurance" now. What a crock of crap. Was only $130, and frankly it was coins I inherited from my grandfather so it's all "found money", but dammit!
<< <i>Shipped several proof sets to a guy via USPS Priority Mail. Used Paypal shipping, shipped to confirmed address. Buyer was offered insurance, but refused.
Delivery confirmation shows not delivered after two weeks. He opened a dispute with Paypal. I escalated to a claim.
Total cost of items was $130.
So what is it going to be:
(1) I lose
(2) He loses
(3) Paypal loses
??? >>
I pick "door # (1)"
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller. >>
Exactly!!!!! Insurance for PAY PAL sales should never be an option! I always make delivery confirmation/signature, shipping and handling including insurance part of the DELIVERY price. Change an extra buck or two and save your reputation for the long run!
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
Thank you for the information regarding this I was not aware this was the case regarding registered mail! I will make sure that I add the signature confirmation in the future.
The said thing is, this may be frustrating to many of us but I would rather follow the rules to the letter and try to persuade the frameworkers to change these rules during the process, than ignore the rules and potetially but forced to pay hundreds/thousands of $$$.
Comments
<< <i>You do not state whether there was Signature Confirmation. If not, you lose, period.
I had a buyer make a claim where I sent to a confirmed address using Priority Mail, and delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation showed he reccieved it. I did NOT use "signature" confirmation.
He filed a claim, and I lost.
I dealt with Rob at Paypal, and he told me that without signature confimation, I lose, no matter what, even if the buyer gave me positive feedback, and even if i had e-mails confirming the delivery. (though I had neither). Without "Signature Confirmation" you lose, period.
PLUS this dude Rob at Paypal was really getting his jollies telling me this, no kidding, he was really rude and sarcastic about it. I couldn't belive how crass he was. That is how I know all this, he basically said to me "I don't care if you have tracking, or if it is confirmed he recieved it. I don't care if you have e-mails from him saying you have it, or even if you have positive feedback from him. The rules say signature confirmation, and without it, they buyer wins."
SO, if you did not do the Signature Confirmation part, you lose. And believe me, I've been there, and feel for ya. Let me add that any type of "signed" verification, if it can be documented is usually acceptable, not ust the USPS version.
I am convinced that there are ebay buyers who intentionally set you up for this. Beware, I was set up, and lost almost $600.
Oh, and if you ever meet Rob from Paypal, please slap him up-side the head for me. >>
According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal.
<< <i>
<< <i>But with paypal the seller is forced to buy insurance or risk losing every single package. We stopped taking paypal years ago and have never been happier. As a longtime visa/mc merchant, we don't need them. >>
As a longtime Visa/Mastercard merchant, you have to meet exactly the same requirements as PayPal. If you process a credit card transaction and the buyer files a chargeback, you have to prove delivery to the billing address - just like PayPal.
Russ, NCNE >>
Just to set the record straight again, Paypal, Credit Cards, Banks, ebay, or any other entity involved in the transaction must find in favor of the buyer if the seller cannot prove delivery. And proof requires a signature at the delivery address. It is the law of the land, not any scheme or attempt to screw sellers. About the only time you can bypass the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) is if you are not a merchant and the transaction takes place with buyer and seller in the same state. Anytime a third party is involved ie: ebay, bank by way of check or Credit Card, paypal, whatever or the transaction is interstate in nature the UCC rules. That is unless you can get all parties involved (buyer, seller, bank, ebay, credit card company, paypal, etc.) to sign off on specific terms to the sale in question in advance. Bottom line, seller is responsible for delivery and without delivery the transaction did not take place. You can put all the disclaimers in place you want it doesn't matter. You lose.
The whole purpose of the UCC was to make a common set of rules that all businesses are required to follow. It is a good thing. Otherwise lawyers would have a field day with every transaction and you would spend your entire life reading fine print just to buy a five dollar item.
have gotten insurance...
<< <i>According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal. >>
Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
Russ, NCNE
I too can confirm this. At $1.00 per transaction that is $1000's of dollars spent on insurance.
So last year I started added insurance to my shipping fee and most times do not indicate that in the auction.
(because insurance is for me and not the buyer)
I have had a few buyers ask how much to insure the package, so I would tell them and then insure it.
At one point last year I stopped insuring items and put away the insurance fee. The amount of money soon climbed to $200 at which point I stopped doing it and now I only ship insured if I do not want to assume the risk (so far the risk has been 0, none lost) or have a bad feeling about the buyer for whatever reason.
Signature confirmation has recently been something I am doing more often even on items under $250.
The cost is $1.90 versus $.80-.90 for deliovery confirmation.
I think it makes sense in the long run not to insure items but that would depend on well you can sleep without it and how often you ship items and at what cost.
This is a subject that has been discussed over and over again and will continue in the future.
We need to be convinced in our own mind what is right for us and do it.
Rookie Joe
<< <i>The buyers are just being smart, when they refuse to pay
extra for insurance.
The sellers are the ones who are being "cheap" when they
fail to insure items.
The buyer receives ZERO benefit from insurance, provided
he/she pays with PayPal or a credit-card. >>
No they are not. They are just gaming the way Paypal is set up, which they can get away with, but is unethical.
Given the way Paypal is set up, the seller just needs to REQUIRE insurance at all times instead of making it optional.
Affirmative and when you get right down to it, so is Priority Mail, INSURED & with Signature Confirmation.
Case & Point:
The carriers that delivered to my old address were screwing up constantly, for NO good reason.
Scenario - A fellow Board Member went through a LOT of trouble & expense to send a fairly large amount of coins to me at the old residence 2016 W. O SP Trl and after personally checking Track & Confirm, it showed I had received the pkg AND signed for it. I became quite livid.
I went down the road and like so many times before, right there at 2106 W. O SP Trl there sat my package all friggin' weekend. Anyone could have simply opened the box and taken all those coins.
Monday rolled around and I had the Postmaster come down and witness it's whereabouts personally. I DEMANDED to see my so-called Signature. Naturally there was none. The carrier had scribbled something that resembled a signature byt it sure as hell wasn't mine! I documented the entire situation with Camcorder.
Oh, to make matters worse, the sender had even paid for a return receipt to show that I had signed for it. After I was done with the local Postmaster I went to the State Postmaster's Office and ultimately THE Postmaster General's and filed a formal complaint against my stupid ass carriers, none of whom presently work in that capacity anymore.
The ONLY sure fire way to cover your ass is to send Registered Insured as PayPal's so called Seller's Protection Plan is about as useless as teets on a Boar Hog. Just thought I'd share that with you.
As for the question, I hope I'm wrong but I am with everyone else on this one. I'm sorry for your loss but I believe you lose. From now on incorporate Insurance into your listings. Make it mandatory/ no choices - included in the rate you charge.
Good Luck. I'm afraid you're going to need it.
You seem to be very passsionate about this subject.
In its simplest form isn't it the responsibility of the buyer to get payment to the seller and the seller's responsibility to get the item in the condition it was sold to the buyer.
The ethical breakdown begins with whomever doesn't fulfill their part.
Rookie Joe
<< <i>Given the way Paypal is set up, the seller just needs to REQUIRE insurance at all times instead of making it optional. >>
It has nothing to do with how paypal is set up. It has to do with the law of the land. Paypal has no option but to find in favor of the buyer. See my other posts regarding the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). You are correct, the seller should insure every package he sends. Or at least send the package uninsured with signature confirmation if he choses to self insure. He should list the appropriate postage in his auction description. Where most problems come into play is that the sellers are charging outrageous shipping charges and then pulling this insurance is optional BS. If sellers just charged what it actually cost this would not be much of an issue.
You look like a professional seller and with that it is your obligation to deliver. Non-pros can often slide through on the insurance thingy.
<< <i>Connecticoin,
You seem to be very passsionate about this subject.
In its simplest form isn't it the responsibility of the buyer to get payment to the seller and the seller's responsibility to get the item in the condition it was sold to the buyer.
The ethical breakdown begins with whomever doesn't fulfill their part.
Rookie Joe >>
Frankly, I don't care. I don't actively sell on ebay and if I did, I would require insurance.
However, ebay allows the seller to make insurance optional, and technically they give the seller the "option" to not pay for insurance. Ethically, if a buyer declines insurance, he should be willing to assume the risk of loss or damage, especially if the seller provides proof that the item was mailed. However, buyers who know how Paypal works may decline insurance and then file a Paypal chargback if they lose. This is unethical, because if they were not willing to assume the risk they should have purchased insurance, instead of, in effect, getting "free" insurance for gaming the Paypal system.
Also, as a buyer I look at it this way -- If a cherrypick a $300 coin for $75, and insurance is optional, do I want to risk not receiving the coin if I decline insurance? I'd rather have the $300 coin than the $75 Paypal chargeback.
Actually, this doesn't work either. If the buyer files a non-receipt claim (even though they did receive and sign the registered mail slip), PayPal will find in the buyer's favor because they require the ability to confirm receipt on-line (neither Registered or Insured provide this). PayPal will take the money away from you and give it to the buyer. You will similarly be left holding the bag with the USPS. Because the buyer signed for the package, they will deny your insurance claim.
WH
Given the way Paypal is set up, the seller just needs to REQUIRE insurance at all times instead of making it optional."
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MANY bad buyers are gaming the system.
ALL the more reason for sellers to make sure that packages
are insured.
The easiest way is to simply include the insurance-fee in the S+H quote.
I offer "FREE" insured-mailing on all EBAY items. The buyer is
paying for it because it is included in the price of the item. (NOTE:
This scheme does not always work well for auctions. I do 99.9% BINs.)
There may be a few out there somewhere, but I have never even seen this practice used elsewhere, much less been involved in it.
Wake up sellers!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
The whole purpose of the UCC was to make a common set of rules that all businesses are required to follow. It is a good thing. Otherwise lawyers would have a field day with every transaction and you would spend your entire life reading fine print just to buy a five dollar item.
Well put and exactly the case. However, the crux of the issue around PayPal is what constitutes proof of delivery. For their purposes, they have narrowly defined that to be something that is verifiable online, etc. etc. which essentially reduces it to Signature Confirmation in the case of USPS (although Express may also apply -- haven't checked or thought about that). All of the other parties (credit cards, banks, etc.) will look at a variety of evidence of receipt (e.g., Registered Mail signature, Insured Mail signature, email from buyer, etc.).
So, in short, the shipper's obligation remains the same (proof of delivery) but when PayPal is used the shipper greatly narrows the scope of acceptable proof of delivery. While no one has articulated this as the issue, I believe it really is the crux of the problem and I believe that PayPal's construction of proof of delivery is overly narrow. However, those are the rules they have established.
In my case, I feel the value of having PayPal as a payment method on eBay auctions greatly outweighs the risks and concerns around proof of delivery and thus continue to offer it as a payment method for eBay sales. However, no where else is PayPal so dominate as the means of payment. Therefore, largely because of the concern around proof of delivery, I no longer accept PayPal for purchases where it is not already the dominate payment method. For example, for several years it was an optional payment method on our website shopping cart. However, ecommerce outside of eBay fuctions very well without PayPal using credit cards. When we eliminated it as a website payment method several months ago no one seemed to notice and no one has complained since.
WH
ALL the more reason for sellers to make sure that packages
are insured.
The easiest way is to simply include the insurance-fee in the S+H quote.
Insurance covers you from loss of the parcel by the carrier. Insurance does not cover you from the unethical buyer who receives the package but claims he did not. This is the case whether or not you accepted payment by PayPal.
WH
<< <i>
<< <i>According to PayPal.....Signature confirmation is only required on sales of $250 & above. Under $250 .. Only Delivery Confirmation is required. I've had several cases, as a seller, that were under $250 & the Delivery Confirmation indicated the date the Item was Delivered. If the P.O. showes Item Delivered, the buyers claim of non delivered item(s), will be denied by PayPal. >>
Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ ... Now I'm confused...the following is from PayPal's Seller Protection Policy
11. A Chargeback is covered if it was due to non-receipt of merchandise, or an unauthorized payment.
11.3 Qualification Requirements. In order to qualify for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements:
a. You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,
h. You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an approved shipping to the address on the “Transaction Details” page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online.
<< <i>If the buyer files a non-receipt claim (even though they did receive and sign the registered mail slip), PayPal will find in the buyer's favor because they require the ability to confirm receipt on-line (neither Registered or Insured provide this). PayPal will take the money away from you and give it to the buyer. You will similarly be left holding the bag with the USPS. Because the buyer signed for the package, they will deny your insurance claim.
WH >>
You can track Registered Mail online.
Yes, but not to the standard required for PayPal. For PayPal, it must be "signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online". The online Registered Mail information is like this:
"Your item was delivered at X:XX pm on XXXX XX, 200X in Xxxxxxxxx, XX XXXXX. A proof of delivery record may be available through your local Post Office for a fee. "
This effectively renders Registered Mail equivalent to Delivery Confirmation for PayPal purposes. It will not suffice for amounts over $250. It might be fine for amounts under $250 although PayPal's website does not definitively state which USPS services are acceptable under $250 and their representatives will also not state an acceptable USPS service for packages with values under $250.
WH
Insurance does not cover you from the unethical buyer who
receives the package but claims he did not. This is the case
whether or not you accepted payment by PayPal."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
If a crooked buyer claims he did not receive a package -
but actually did - he will be having a chat with the USPS
postal inspector when I file my insurance claim.
Insurance covers "lost packages." If the buyer lies about
the issue to the PI, the seller still gets paid on the claim.
Delivery Confirmation does NOT constitute "proof" of delivery
to the USPS. They well recognize that many parcels are
delivered to the wrong address. They will still pay a claim,
if DC shows delivery, AND the buyer claims non-receipt;
they simply investigate and make a decision.
I have never had USPS deny a claim.
I won one of his auctions and got it lickety split- unlike 2 other sellers. AT is cool.
ENTER at your own RISK
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Somehow you're still not understanding the situation with a crooked buyer.
A crooked buyer is going to file his claim with PayPal and get his money back for them. He is not going to entertain you while you make your claim with the PO. In fact, the only communication you'll get with him is through the PayPal dispute resolution system.
If you have a crooked buyer he is going to tell PayPal he did not receive the package. They are going to refund his money because you don't have proof of delivery. He won't be talking to the PI because you will not hear from him again. He won't tell the PO he didn't get the package and won't sign the insurance claim form when you sent it to him. All he has to do is log into his PayPal account and state there that he did not get it. Then you are toast.
WH
With Jimmy?
I have a few things I want to show ya-
not to take away from the thread-
I recently had an issue with a seller for being a PITA- she never sent the item and after 30 days refunded my $$ probably due to the stupid emails she sent and were copied back to both paypal and Ebay- but nonetheless- if the dispute is legit- paypal gets the $$ back to the buyer and the buyer has little alternative in the matter unless he has signed proof of the delivery.
Insurance is good for the seller- unless the buyer paid not using paypal but the old fashion way- check or MO- then the insurance can work in both favors- the aseller is protected via the claim that must be filed and the buyer will get his refund once paperwork has been filed and of course the PO has completed there investigation into the matter.
Which does not appear to be the case here, unfortunately.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Once PayPal declares the package "lost," the USPS
insurance claim is guaranteed to finish in the money.
The PayPal resolution-notice is the only non-USPS doc you need
to open a USPS claim for non-delivery. The signature
of the corruptnik is not required; the PI will go to his
address, and attempt to interview him. If the bad
guy refuses to talk, the claim will still be paid. The
USPS may or may not pursue the crook; absent a
confession, proof is difficult.
The item is insured against "loss." The seller is
the beneficiary of the insurance. An item not
delivered as addressed, is lost; the insurance
pays.
MORGANHUNTER2, yes, I'll be at LB and JMS is sharing the table again.
Thanks,
WH
<< <i>He won't tell the PO he didn't get the package and won't sign the insurance claim form when you sent it to him. >>
One thing of note: Blue label insurance does not require the buyer to participate in the claims process.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You can track Registered Mail online.
Yes, but not to the standard required for PayPal. For PayPal, it must be "signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online". The online Registered Mail information is like this:
"Your item was delivered at X:XX pm on XXXX XX, 200X in Xxxxxxxxx, XX XXXXX. A proof of delivery record may be available through your local Post Office for a fee. "
This effectively renders Registered Mail equivalent to Delivery Confirmation for PayPal purposes. It will not suffice for amounts over $250. It might be fine for amounts under $250 although PayPal's website does not definitively state which USPS services are acceptable under $250 and their representatives will also not state an acceptable USPS service for packages with values under $250.
WH >>
That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice?
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Fatman said it best: "The UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) clearly places the responsibility of delivery on the seller. In fact, no transaction exists until the buyer takes physical possession." >>
Too bad that's not what the UCC says.....
"the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier"
While credit cards and Paypal operate under special rules, under the UCC (and maritime law going back 500 years) once the seller loads it on the ship, the UPC truck, or hands it to the clerk at the post office, the buyer owns it, and YES insurance protects the BUYER while HIS PROPERTY is being shipped to him.
<< <i>It has nothing to do with how paypal is set up. It has to do with the law of the land. Paypal has no option but to find in favor of the buyer. See my other posts regarding the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). >>
Ah...it's the Fair Credit Billing Act administered by the Federal Trade Commission, not the UCC.
Link
<< <i>Incorrect. What you are citing applies to fraud cases only. In the case of a non-delivery complaint, delivery confirmation is useless regardless of dollar amount.
Russ, NCNE >>
You, Sir, are incorrect. The seller is protected against claims of non-delivery for any reason if the non-signature
delivery confirmation shows "delivered" and the amount is under $250
Using Paypal shipping you can insure to $500.00 If its over 500.00, I go to the post office.
Always confirm delivery and insure , it protects you. If its over 100.00 , I get signature confirmation and also include that in shipping costs.
Costs are stated in the auction and not negotiable. I charge postal costs plus 1.00 on most items. I can safely pack just about anything for about a dollar.
Shipping is not a way I make any money, for some sellers it makes more money than the auction , and thats just as wrong as the guy who complains about insurance costs and signature confirmation.
In this case after 3 weeks and delivery is not confirmed you probably will be charged back.
Azcoindevil
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That is correct.
Tom always makes sense. As a seller, you should always mandate insurance..
So, what happens if the sender makes a claim yet the recipient has signed for it (e.g., the dishonest buyer approach)?
WH
<< <i> "One thing of note: Blue label insurance does not require the buyer to participate in the claims process."
So, what happens if the sender makes a claim yet the recipient has signed for it (e.g., the dishonest buyer approach)?
WH >>
If the recipient signed for it, the post office will have record of it and claim will be denied.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Fatman said it best: "The UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) clearly places the responsibility of delivery on the seller. In fact, no transaction exists until the buyer takes physical possession." >>
Too bad that's not what the UCC says.....
"the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier" >>
Too bad you were reading about a Shipment Contract, and not the general provision of the UCC which says...
"The U.C.C. provides that, unless a contrary agreement is explicitly made, title passes to the buyer at the time the goods are physically delivered to the buyer."
The shipment contract is a contrary agreement. A typical shipment contract is "FOB Atlanta" for a shipment to Dallas. Yes, in that arrangement risk of loss is transfered upon transfer to the common carrier in Atlanta.
<< <i>We have concluded our investigation and have determined that the buyer is due a refund. >>
So put my in the camp of "everything goes with mandatory insurance" now. What a crock of crap. Was only $130, and frankly it was coins I inherited from my grandfather so it's all "found money", but dammit!
<< <i>Shipped several proof sets to a guy via USPS Priority Mail. Used Paypal shipping, shipped to confirmed address. Buyer was offered insurance, but refused.
Delivery confirmation shows not delivered after two weeks. He opened a dispute with Paypal. I escalated to a claim.
Total cost of items was $130.
So what is it going to be:
(1) I lose
(2) He loses
(3) Paypal loses
??? >>
I pick "door # (1)"
<< <i>You lose. Why does anyone leave insurance as an option if the loss would bother them? We read this story on the boards every week, though from a different seller. >>
Exactly!!!!! Insurance for PAY PAL sales should never be an option! I always make delivery confirmation/signature, shipping and handling including insurance part of the DELIVERY price. Change an extra buck or two and save your reputation for the long run!
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
Russ, NCNE >>
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>
<< <i>That is bulls**t. You friggin have to sign for a Registered Package, and you can track online that is was delivered. Why should you have to pay $2.50 extra to have someone sign for a package twice? >>
It is BS, but it's also PayPal rules. Like Wayne said, they have drawn their definition of received far more narrowly than the rest of the world.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
Thank you for the information regarding this
The said thing is, this may be frustrating to many of us but I would rather follow the rules to the letter and try to persuade the frameworkers to change these rules during the process, than ignore the rules and potetially but forced to pay hundreds/thousands of $$$.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
"Shipping and Handling Fee Includes USPS Insurance and Delivery Confirmation."
Language in a listing stating "insurance is mandatory," is NOT the
positive and friendly way to do it.
Buyers never think negatively about the issue, IF it is simply "included."
Sorry about the OP's loss, but that is just life in the PayPal world.