<< <i>The best thing to do would be to refund the amount bid.
The coin is not a gem and obviously cleaned. Listing it as problem free and using gem in the title seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.
The seller needs some education, though the buyer needs it more. The price of tuition is a lot steeper for the buyer, between the grading fee, and all the shipping charges, the buyer probably has about $60 in this coin. For any new collectors reading along, that $60 would buy a decent certified example though not a gem MS65 one. The ideal solution would be for the seller to refund the $22.50 bid and chalk it up as inexpensive tuition. The seller is under no obligation to refund the money. However, if I were judge and jury, that is the settlement that seems most fair, and the one that will make the seller much more reluctant to buy the next cleaned junk coin and list it as a "gem, problem free" coin on Ebay. >>
I bought a raw '24 Saint that looked nice but had some slight rub marks in one section of it. The dealer had it listed as a 63, but I told him I thought it would BB if sent to PCGS. He said no way, and he'd refund my $ if it did. I said OK, we shook hands, and I paid him 20% over spot.
It got BB'd, and when I see him again in May I'll mention it to him. It'll be interesting to see his reaction. I like the coin and want to keep it, but maybe he'll take care of me on another purchase. We'll see.
Now on the flip side, I also bought a raw '08 NM from him that he had listed as UNC for 7% over spot that got a 65 from PCGS, so there's a part of me that says it all kind of evens out.
<< <i>I'd rather not discuss the actual condition or grade of the coin, the point being that when he received the coin, he AGREED with my opinion of the coin's condition. He only wants a refund after getting bagged by TPG. >>
There was a lot more to this transaction, and a lot of communication between me and the buyer after the auction was over. One of the things the buyer and I discussed was whether the coin had been cleaned. This communication took place before the coin was shipped.
So everyone who has criticized me and (correctly, I admit to my embarassment) said I overstated the coin is indeed correct, but there were other factors that went into this transaction.
Not the least of which was a promise by me that he could return the coin for any reason -- after he had a chance to examine it in hand. He was not held to any time particular frame, just that he get a chance to examine the coin and decide if he wanted to keep it. My whole problem is that he extended his 'examination' to include certification. I think his examination should be considered complete when he left positive feedback.
Plus, the buyer is no babe in the woods. He sells 20 times more coins than I do and he thought enough of the coin (IN HAND) to send it for grading. He had plenty of time to unwind the deal without further ado and recoup every cent.
Reality check! Let me see if I got this straight... the buyer liked the coin upon receipt enough to leave glowing feedback... then decided he liked the coin enough to send a $20 coin in for certification... and now all of a sudden a full 4 weeks after the expiration of the return period, without EVER broaching the subject of certification OR extension of the return period with the seller, he wants not only a refund but grading fees as well?
'The proper course of action for me to take was not the topic of the thread. I already knew what I was going to do.
The topic is what would YOU do given THIS situation?
My communications with the buyer gave me a perfectly clear conscience before shipping the coin. I had an 'examination and approval agreement' with the buyer and he changed things afterward.
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse.
You are not obligated to refund the coin at this point.
However, I'd offer him a refund anyways in the interest of taking the higher road. He's not happy with the coin, you can likely still sell the coin at a profit to a happy buyer, i'd just let him out of it.
I would *not* reimburse grading fees as you had no agreement regarding TPG of the coin. you have no guarantee that the coin would be TPG'd anyways.
<< <i>Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue >>
I think the opposite. The original post, has a one-sided view to make the hypothetical buyer look bad. Based on that limited information, almost every objective person would say, no to a refund. When some of the missing details such as gem in the title, no problem in the description, and the verdict changes.
I'm not sure what the deal was with the person who sold this coin to you for $9 in a holder marked MS63. If that person thought it a no-problem MS63, they would have charged triple that price. Again, I think the readers are only getting one part of the story. The alarm bells for a problem coin should have sounded for that listed grade at that price.
Based on what I have seen here, I would block BOTH the buyer and the seller from future transactions. I think that the buyer believed the seller, and therein lies the problem. I do give the seller some credit for refunding the buyer his money, but he should have done it because it was the right thing to do, not because the forum told him to do so.
Another case where the initial information only gives part of the story.
Based on the initial post, I was in the "no" category. However, seeing the auction and hearing about the "more communication" part, I would say that the seller is doing the right thing to give the refund, that the seller is not one I would buy from right now (overhyping a knowingly problem coin and being self-admittedly lazy with the listings) and the buyer, who is a seller of many things coin related, should have known better. I have V nickels and even I, before reading all the comments and just seeing the pics, knew it had been cleaned and was a problem coin.
Seeing the pics, and seeing the auction with "I am not a coin dealer" (said in a Richard Nixon type voice ....you know which voice I am talking about ), would have made me close that auction page faster than spit.
<< <i>The coin is obviously cleaned (its fairly easy to tell from the photos) . The buyer has little recourse and probably should have known better. But on the other hand I sure won't be buying any "gem problem free coins" from you. >>
Agree. The auction was misleading at best and the seller was being less than honest about the coin's condition. Like I've always said, if you want a slabbed coin, buy a slabbed coin. Don't waste your time and money buying raw crap from dishonest sellers on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>tell him no or that youwill charge a significant restocking fee (25% or so).
It is the buyer's fault and he assumes risks when he buys the coin >>
What risks? That the seller lied when he said "Gem" and "Problem free"? It's because of this attitude that I will never buy a raw coin on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>'The proper course of action for me to take was not the topic of the thread. I already knew what I was going to do.
The topic is what would YOU do given THIS situation?
My communications with the buyer gave me a perfectly clear conscience before shipping the coin. I had an 'examination and approval agreement' with the buyer and he changed things afterward.
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse. >>
The way the auction was written and all the information you have mentioned, I would refund the coin but not the grading fees. With that said, you mentioned that you had "discussions" with him before shipping the coin. I would have been very definitive by email in these discussions to avoid this issue. I find that some people will ask for almost anything (such as your buyer did) if parameters are left vague.
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse. >>
I disagree, as soon as you said "problem free" you really exposed yourself to an unfavorable situation. In your defense, speaking with the buyer and agreeing that the coin was OK after he received it helped your cause. But again I would recommend definitive parameters in writing if a similar situation arises in future transactions.
I think it is fair for the buyer to get a refund on the auction, but not fair to the seller to pay the grading fees. The seller did not compel the buyer to send the coin in for grading, that was the buyer's decision and responsibility. The seller did however, represent the coin as problem free, which is was not. If the buyer sounds like an unreasonable hot-head, yes, the seller should feel free to bar him from auctions.
<< <i>It would help to see a link to the auction in question. It depends on if you offered a grade opinion in the auction. If I buy a coin from a dealer as a 63, and I send it to PCGS or NGC, and it BB, I would expect him to stand behind his grade and refund part or all of the purchase price.
-Paul >>
And if it came back a 64 would you call the seller and offer to split the profit? What nonsense! Some of the sharpest eyes in the business get disappointed on a continual basis by the tpgs. The crackout artists can be heard screaming in dispair when they get their coins back. No one can predict what the tpgs will grade their coin. If I ever bought a raw coin sight unseen (which I never do) I would mostly ignore any hype from the seller,including grade, judge the coin for myself, and either keep it or send it back within the time limit. Oh yes, and I would live with my decision without whining. Dave W
After seeing the coin I now have a problem with the "no problems" statement. However I do believe ANACS would grade this in a holder as MS 60 details cleaned. No return of grading fee should be considered as the coin was not guaranteed to grade at a tpgs.
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
the coin is obviously cleaned looking at the picture. People claim coins are "problem free" all the time... I say it's up to the buyer to decide for themselves by getting a good picture of the coin and using some common sense.
Sellers like Ernie offer a 10 day return policy for a reason.. after you get the coin, you should be the one who determines if it's problem free... to submit an obviously cleaned coin to NGC seems kind of strange in my opinion and the buyer should have to deal with his loss.
I am not sure why the coin was bodybagged. You may have overhyped the coin a bit by saying it was problem free. Other than that, I see nothing in the listing that indicates you need to refund the money. I avoid selling raw coins on EBAY for one simple reason, I do not want buyers trying to use me as a free way to keep coins that slab, and attempt to return coins that do not. Like many here, I have often bought coins that get bodybagged. That is a risk I assume as the buyer, I do not expect the seller to gaurantee that. This guy is trying to use you as a source to prevent bodybagging costs. He needs to be educated.
If you had been up front with the condition of the coin in the first place, non of this happens. If you don't think you are up to professional grading standards, then don't put opinions in about the condition. Leave that to your photo and the buyer's skills.
The auction was misleading. 95% or more of the buyers on ebay have no real clue as to how to grade. That should be expected. I'd certainly give the refund and would consider paying the grading fee as well....because the coin was cleaned and it was no surprise to you.
As already stated. I too don't buy raw on ebay for the above reasons.
I swear that some of you people need to take a reading comprehension course. The seller already realizes that it was a poorly stated auction listing and that he and the buyer [apparently an experienced one at that] had discussions {and an agreement} about the coin BEFORE it was shipped. Sounds like the buyer was unhappy and reneged on said agreement AFTER some TPG BB'd it. He is asking how YOU would have handled it not what he should do; his plan was already formed before he posted.
<< <i>The damage from cleaning that you see in the photo is just not visible in hand or with a simple magnifying glass. (Now we discuss whether that's true or not.) >>
If most here can see from your pix that the coin was cleaned didn't you see the same thing when you looked at your listing? For most sellers describing a coin as gem or unc and then posting a pic that make the coin look otherwise should set off some sort of alarm. I guess you missed the boat there.
Looking at the auction photo, I can clearly tell the coin would BB for cleaning. IMO, you are not required to refund the money as he is not in accordance with your return policy. However, you clearly state the coin is problem free, which it is not, also you post on your listing about honesty & intergrity (ENRB). It might be in your best intrest to refund the purchase price at least. your choice!
The picture in the auction shows the coin at its worst. The hairlines are accentuated by that picture. You cannot see a single hairline with the eye -- even under single-lens magnification. (I didn't look with a loupe.) You know the coin looked good enough in-hand to fool both buyer and seller by reading the feedback he left for me.
I had multiple emails with the buyer after the auction, before shipping the coin. FULL disclosure was made at that time. I assured him that he could return examine the coin and let me know if he wanted to keep it or not. I promised him that (because his feedback is 99+) I would refund his PayPal payment instantly, before receiving the returned coin, if he so desired.
I already explained my misinterpretation of 'GEM'. Putting 'problem-free' in the description was a mistake. I had about 10 of these coins at the time and used a template for the auction. The templates have been a source of other mistakes in other auctions. (Wrong date, wrong category, wrong picture, wrong description in general.) I had already taken 'problem free' out of other auctions and templates. I left it in this auction because the coin looks so good in hand and by being a little lazy. Any problem with any description in the auction was rendered moot by the 'examination agreement' we had.
To those who say they will 'block both buyer and seller': You will be blocking a seller with full return privileges, 100% positive feedback, speedy shipping, great communication and decent pictures in auctions. And yes, still learning every day. As a buyer, never a retracted bid, never a slow pay, never a return, have left just a single negative due to extraordinary circumstances. When you put a block on me, please let me know.
To those who say I only decided to refund after board members "told me to": I had already made that decision before posting the thread. The problem was the buyers insistance that I cough up these other charges.
The buyer wants this:
Full refund on coin Full refund on shipping Shipping charges to NGC Return shipping from NGC Grading fees paid to NGC
To those who say they will 'block both buyer and seller': You will be blocking a seller with full return privileges, 100% positive feedback, speedy shipping, great communication and decent pictures in auctions. And yes, still learning every day. As a buyer, never a retracted bid, never a slow pay, never a return, have left just a single negative due to extraordinary circumstances. When you put a block on me, please let me know.
I'll take my chances.
"This is a VERY NICE coin! "
This appeared in your subtitle. Anyone who has collected coins for more than a month can recognize that this coin is a pig. Therefore, either you do not know what a nice coin is or you are trying to deceive me. Either way, I do not want to take the chance. Sorry.
Unless there is some "rest of the story" that we don't know about, I say no refund of expenses associated with submitting the coin to a TPG. Otherwise you did the best thing.
This should be a lesson in taking extra care when composing eBay listings that will be out there for all the world to see.
<< <i>Unless there is some "rest of the story" that we don't know about, I say no refund of expenses associated with submitting the coin to a TPG. Otherwise you did the best thing. >>
This was foolish, and the buyer does not deserve to be compensated for such. Next time, the buyer will think long and hard before submitting a coin for grading.
For those who haven't read the entire post, this is an excellent example of what to do and what not to do when buying and selling coins, especially on ebay !
Hype only works when you are the US MINT and a THIRD PARTY GRADING service .
It works well for politicians, too.
RYK, maybe the seller used a little too much hype, but at least he's come clean. I cannot say the same for the buyer. He is a sneak, a low life, a cheat and will use any technicality he chooses to make sure he don't get screwed, but his attempt to extort grading fees out of the buyer are bordering on INSANITY, in my opinion. The buyer may be a good business man, but he is a bad numismatist. He's the one I have the issues with, not so much the OP.
It's looking like the cat is outta the bag, though.
I've already posted to this thread twice, but each time I go back to read it I find there are more nuggets of the transaction history that are shared, which were not shared prior to the new readthrough. If you want to refund the buyer then that is up to you, though I still believe each person should be responsible for their decision in every instance, but I would in no way refund the additional expenses if for no other reason than you cannot be certain that the coin was indeed submitted for certification. I write that last statement because the buyer has been painted as a fairly experienced coin seller and, if so, then the buyer might be flipping a poorly worded auction win back to the seller for a profit by claiming expenses that never actually took place. Sounds weird, but much of this thread is weird, too.
After so much time, there's no way you're responsible for either a refund or grading fees. If you feel the need, refund the bid, but the grading fees are on the buyer. And remember, refunding the bid won't make the buyer happy. He's clearly a jerk to want grading fees too 5 weeks later.
I recently purchased a very nice looking large cent from a seller on Ebay, In hand it looked like it may have been laquered. Ive never seen a laquered coin, but this had a certain something to it. I sent it in to PCGS just for fun and it came back as a BB, altered surface. I was disappointed, not entirely surprised, I still like the coin, I am a big boy, I stand by my actions. I will probably do an acetone wash and see what lies beneath, but I would never have asked for my money back.
On the other hand, if I EVER sell a cleaned coin to anybody, you can bet the farm Im giving a refund. I dont want to ever be known for selling problem coins, or problem free coins that have problems.
I sold a Reverse Proof PCGS Pr70 2006 Silver Eagle to a guy who sent it back saying it wasnt a 70. The slab said 70, it was a PCGS 70, it should have been a 70. But i looked at the coin and it had a ding, right next to Libertys head. I went through all my 70s and found a real 70 and sent it to him.
On a $20 cleaned coin, I would have refunded this guy in a heartbeat, probably told him to keep the coin and put it into a type set and move on.
<< <i>I recently purchased a very nice looking large cent from a seller on Ebay, In hand it looked like it may have been laquered. Ive never seen a laquered coin, but this had a certain something to it. I sent it in to PCGS just for fun and it came back as a BB, altered surface. I was disappointed, not entirely surprised, I still like the coin, I am a big boy, I stand by my actions. I will probably do an acetone wash and see what lies beneath, but I would never have asked for my money back.
On the other hand, if I EVER sell a cleaned coin to anybody, you can bet the farm Im giving a refund. I dont want to ever be known for selling problem coins, or problem free coins that have problems.
I sold a Reverse Proof PCGS Pr70 2006 Silver Eagle to a guy who sent it back saying it wasnt a 70. The slab said 70, it was a PCGS 70, it should have been a 70. But i looked at the coin and it had a ding, right next to Libertys head. I went through all my 70s and found a real 70 and sent it to him.
On a $20 cleaned coin, I would have refunded this guy in a heartbeat, probably told him to keep the coin and put it into a type set and move on. >>
This is the kind of buyer/seller with whom I would prefer to deal.
This is why I don't like ebay, and I want to buy my coins from someone in person! No offense to the seller. I'm sure you are ethical and know your stuff inside and out. But for someone like me who has just started collecting coins in the past six months, I need advice from the seller. If you tell me its a good coin, problem free, etc etc, then that puts me at ease. I realize i need to learn a lot more and maybe after I do ebay would be okay with me. Right now I avoid that place at all costs!
If I had bought this coin from you (10 bucks or 400), with the same criteria I would have never asked for a refund; however, I would never look at another coin of yours again.
Again no offense intended, just the thoughts of a newer collecter, but I need the expertise of a seller when I am buying a coin! The exception being if I were buying a Morgan, Peace or something else I have studied enough to have a bit of a personal comfort level reguarding that coin.
Refund the purchase price (minus any fee's incurred, unless you can get those back) as a courtesy, explaining that this is not your regular policy & this courtesy will not be given again.
As a buyer I understand when sellers say "I am not a professional coin grader.....", big red flag. But you do mention "This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60.". In this case the coin did have (alledged) problems, but only a TPG was able to detect it, and there was no way that could have been identified within the return time limit you provided.
Explain that you will not refund grading costs as he had the coin in hand & he decided to send it in, also proving that the coin did not look cleaned to him either.
Then decide whether to block him from future auctions or not, and just as importantly, what to do with the coin.
I feel that we are represented most clearly in a buy/sell transaction. If there is any misunderstanding, it is the way we approach the problem that defines us.
If the original poster had realized this before he posted this laundry, he should have realized that it did him no service.
Now the board members know he knowingly sells cleaned coins, they know he has a problem with buyers when they cant count on his descriptions. Most board members will now doubt any coin he sells. So, that didnt work to his advantage. Other board members who may not care about that may place him into a category of one who buys problem coins, so maybe they will try to put him on their favorite buyers list, also, not doing him any real favors.
Selling and buying is learning as well. And I think we all learned some very valueable information in this post.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting very tired of these threads where somebody asks for opinions while telling only the part of the story that favors themselves.
I only read the first 2 pages but I did see the coin and understand why some would say refund the money and some wouldn't. For me he had 7 days to take it to "anyone" including a coin shop and return it and he didn't so he's SOL. I've been disappointed on 20 dollar coins too that didn't have the good pictures you included and I just ate it.
One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. I can see that a local coin dealer could deliver an opinion, but that opinion could lack the credibility of that delivered by a paid service from NGC or PCGS. Given the realities of TPG submissions I don't think that five weeks is an excessively long period.
However I do agree that the buyer should have notified the seller before sale of his intentions to have it graded, and to return if it came back BB'ed.
Anyway, as I pm'd our OP, I really do think he's made an honest effort to learn something here and made himself publicly vulnerable in the process. Good for him, and I thank him for sharing his experience for board members to learn from.
Well no one that sells coins assume your going to send it to a TPG, anyone could have graded that coin with a little knowledge of hairlines and luster. Dick Osburn will let you send in coins he deems problem free but he tells you that up front and requires you to inform him if this is what your doing. That's more than fair IMO.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. >>
It is more than enough time for the buyer to make a decision. It would be utter silliness to offer a return period long enough to accomodate submission of the coin to a TPG.
In my view this is a cheap lesson for a novice and everyone buys some of these when they started. Now that he understands he can evolve in collecting. This is the price of an education in collecting and always has been. Some of us still take chances on boardline coins.
<< <i>I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting very tired of these threads where somebody asks for opinions while telling only the part of the story that favors themselves.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree 100%. I try to wait for the second shoe to drop before making a decision.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. I can see that a local coin dealer could deliver an opinion, but that opinion could lack the credibility of that delivered by a paid service from NGC or PCGS. Given the realities of TPG submissions I don't think that five weeks is an excessively long period. >>
HUH?? Fer a freakin $20 coin sold on eBay you expect a 5 week return period? Most sellers will NOT go along with the condition of a TPG opinion as part of the deal. If they would that should be stated in the auction itself and not negotiated after the auction has ended. The buyer knew it was cleaned and agreed to take it on that basis. He tried to pull a fast one and slip one by a TPG, but it backfired. He spent a bunch of $$ for nothing and now he expects someone else to pay. For most folks 10 seconds is all you need to tell if its a keeper or not.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. >>
I'd disagree with this. There's always a chance a coin will get BB'ed on one submission and then holdered on a later try. How many tries should a seller be on the hook for? Unless the seller actually guarantees such, I don't think it's his responsibility to insure that the buyer's coin (he's already paid for it and received it) gets accepted by a TPG.
If a buyer wants a slabbed coin, he should either A) buy one already holdered or assume the responsibility for finding one that will meet the TPG's standards.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. I can see that a local coin dealer could deliver an opinion, but that opinion could lack the credibility of that delivered by a paid service from NGC or PCGS. Given the realities of TPG submissions I don't think that five weeks is an excessively long period. >>
HUH?? Fer a freakin $20 coin sold on eBay you expect a 5 week return period? Most sellers will NOT go along with the condition of a TPG opinion as part of the deal. If they would that should be stated in the auction itself and not negotiated after the auction has ended. The buyer knew it was cleaned and agreed to take it on that basis. He tried to pull a fast one and slip one by a TPG, but it backfired. He spent a bunch of $$ for nothing and now he expects someone else to pay. For most folks 10 seconds is all you need to tell if its a keeper or not. >>
BAJJERFAN's opinion above seems consistent with the responses to my last post. (And I do enjoy its spiritedness. ) Like I've said before, though, those post-sale TPG-grading terms should have been agreed upon before the bid was placed. The OP could have decided either way on that request, and in either case he wouldn't have had the dilemma he has now. As this situation goes, I agree that the buyer has a very weak case for demanding the refund of grading fees and that the way he has pursued it has accomplished little more than aggravating the seller.
I do see the reality that this is a $20 coin and that hammering out an agreement over grading would be unusual, wierd... or even ridiculous. I'm only trying to discuss the idea of post-sale grading (especially, TPG body-bagging) of coins in general.
MrPotatohead, I would have to say that the first result is the only one that should matter. If the buyer went ahead and submitted the coin twice more with the same result, wouldn't his pursuit of a refund of three $20 grading fees seem even more ridiculous?
As for the lack of integrity of the buyer in this thread, well, as accurate as speculation on that may be, it shouldn't have any impact in the ethical decision on whether or not to refund what. (The emotional decision, well sure.)
<< <i>MrPotatohead, I would have to say that the first result is the only one that should matter. If the buyer went ahead and submitted the coin twice more with the same result, wouldn't his pursuit of a refund of three $20 grading fees seem even more ridiculous? >>
Yes, I'd certainly agree there.
Unless it is stated explicitly that such an assurance is being provided, I still don't think it should be automatically assumed that a seller will guarantee a refund if a coin is BB'ed by a TPG, though.
Comments
<< <i>The best thing to do would be to refund the amount bid.
The coin is not a gem and obviously cleaned. Listing it as problem free and using gem in the title seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.
The seller needs some education, though the buyer needs it more. The price of tuition is a lot steeper for the buyer, between the grading fee, and all the shipping charges, the buyer probably has about $60 in this coin. For any new collectors reading along, that $60 would buy a decent certified example though not a gem MS65 one. The ideal solution would be for the seller to refund the $22.50 bid and chalk it up as inexpensive tuition. The seller is under no obligation to refund the money. However, if I were judge and jury, that is the settlement that seems most fair, and the one that will make the seller much more reluctant to buy the next cleaned junk coin and list it as a "gem, problem free" coin on Ebay. >>
Well Said Red Tiger!
It got BB'd, and when I see him again in May I'll mention it to him. It'll be interesting to see his reaction. I like the coin and want to keep it, but maybe he'll take care of me on another purchase. We'll see.
Now on the flip side, I also bought a raw '08 NM from him that he had listed as UNC for 7% over spot that got a 65 from PCGS, so there's a part of me that says it all kind of evens out.
I did NOT want to trot out all of these details.
<< <i>I'd rather not discuss the actual condition or grade of the coin, the point being that when he received the coin, he AGREED with my opinion of the coin's condition. He only wants a refund after getting bagged by TPG. >>
There was a lot more to this transaction, and a lot of communication between me and the buyer after the auction was over. One of the things the buyer and I discussed was whether the coin had been cleaned. This communication took place before the coin was shipped.
So everyone who has criticized me and (correctly, I admit to my embarassment) said I overstated the coin is indeed correct, but there were other factors that went into this transaction.
Not the least of which was a promise by me that he could return the coin for any reason -- after he had a chance to examine it in hand. He was not held to any time particular frame, just that he get a chance to examine the coin and decide if he wanted to keep it. My whole problem is that he extended his 'examination' to include certification. I think his examination should be considered complete when he left positive feedback.
Plus, the buyer is no babe in the woods. He sells 20 times more coins than I do and he thought enough of the coin (IN HAND) to send it for grading. He had plenty of time to unwind the deal without further ado and recoup every cent.
As I said about 20 posts ago, I am going to give him his refund. I am still debating the grading fees.
<< <i>I did NOT want to trot out all of these details. >>
I can appreciate that, but you have to take into consideration that the details have a lot to do with what the proper course of action ought to be.
Ain't no effin' way.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
'The proper course of action for me to take was not the topic of the thread. I already knew what I was going to do.
The topic is what would YOU do given THIS situation?
My communications with the buyer gave me a perfectly clear conscience before shipping the coin. I had an 'examination and approval agreement' with the buyer and he changed things afterward.
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse.
However, I'd offer him a refund anyways in the interest of taking the higher road. He's not happy with the coin, you can likely still sell the coin at a profit to a happy buyer, i'd just let him out of it.
I would *not* reimburse grading fees as you had no agreement regarding TPG of the coin. you have no guarantee that the coin would be TPG'd anyways.
<< <i>Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue >>
I think the opposite. The original post, has a one-sided view to make the hypothetical buyer look bad. Based on that limited information, almost every objective person would say, no to a refund. When some of the missing details such as gem in the title, no problem in the description, and the verdict changes.
I'm not sure what the deal was with the person who sold this coin to you for $9 in a holder marked MS63. If that person thought it a no-problem MS63, they would have charged triple that price. Again, I think the readers are only getting one part of the story. The alarm bells for a problem coin should have sounded for that listed grade at that price.
Based on the initial post, I was in the "no" category. However, seeing the auction and hearing about the "more communication" part, I would say that the seller is doing the right thing to give the refund, that the seller is not one I would buy from right now (overhyping a knowingly problem coin and being self-admittedly lazy with the listings) and the buyer, who is a seller of many things coin related, should have known better. I have V nickels and even I, before reading all the comments and just seeing the pics, knew it had been cleaned and was a problem coin.
Seeing the pics, and seeing the auction with "I am not a coin dealer" (said in a Richard Nixon type voice ....you know which voice I am talking about
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>The coin is obviously cleaned (its fairly easy to tell from the photos) . The buyer has little recourse and probably should have known better. But on the other hand I sure won't be buying any "gem problem free coins" from you. >>
Agree. The auction was misleading at best and the seller was being less than honest about the coin's condition. Like I've always said, if you want a slabbed coin, buy a slabbed coin. Don't waste your time and money buying raw crap from dishonest sellers on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>tell him no or that youwill charge a significant restocking fee (25% or so).
It is the buyer's fault and he assumes risks when he buys the coin >>
What risks? That the seller lied when he said "Gem" and "Problem free"? It's because of this attitude that I will never buy a raw coin on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>'The proper course of action for me to take was not the topic of the thread. I already knew what I was going to do.
The topic is what would YOU do given THIS situation?
My communications with the buyer gave me a perfectly clear conscience before shipping the coin. I had an 'examination and approval agreement' with the buyer and he changed things afterward.
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse. >>
The way the auction was written and all the information you have mentioned, I would refund the coin but not the grading fees. With that said, you mentioned that you had "discussions" with him before shipping the coin. I would have been very definitive by email in these discussions to avoid this issue. I find that some people will ask for almost anything (such as your buyer did) if parameters are left vague.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
Putting the link to the auction clouded the issue. ...and gave some folks the delicious opportunity to get on a high horse. >>
I disagree, as soon as you said "problem free" you really exposed yourself to an unfavorable situation. In your defense, speaking with the buyer and agreeing that the coin was OK after he received it helped your cause. But again I would recommend definitive parameters in writing if a similar situation arises in future transactions.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>It would help to see a link to the auction in question. It depends on if you offered a grade opinion in the auction. If I buy a coin from a dealer as a 63, and I send it to PCGS or NGC, and it BB, I would expect him to stand behind his grade and refund part or all of the purchase price.
-Paul >>
And if it came back a 64 would you call the seller and offer to split the profit? What nonsense! Some of the sharpest eyes in the business get disappointed on a continual basis by the tpgs. The crackout artists can be heard screaming in dispair when they get their coins back.
No one can predict what the tpgs will grade their coin. If I ever bought a raw coin sight unseen (which I never do) I would mostly ignore any hype from the seller,including grade, judge the coin for myself, and either keep it or send it back within the time limit.
Oh yes, and I would live with my decision without whining. Dave W
After seeing the coin I now have a problem with the "no problems" statement. However I do believe ANACS would grade this in a holder as MS 60 details cleaned. No return of grading fee should be considered as the coin was not guaranteed to grade at a tpgs.
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
Sellers like Ernie offer a 10 day return policy for a reason.. after you get the coin, you should be the one who determines if it's problem free... to submit an obviously cleaned coin to NGC seems kind of strange in my opinion and the buyer should have to deal with his loss.
The auction was misleading. 95% or more of the buyers on ebay have no real clue as to how to grade. That should be expected.
I'd certainly give the refund and would consider paying the grading fee as well....because the coin was cleaned and it was no surprise to you.
As already stated. I too don't buy raw on ebay for the above reasons.
roadrunner
<< <i>The damage from cleaning that you see in the photo is just not visible in hand or with a simple magnifying glass. (Now we discuss whether that's true or not.) >>
If most here can see from your pix that the coin was cleaned didn't you see the same thing when you looked at your listing? For most sellers describing a coin as gem or unc and then posting a pic that make the coin look otherwise should set off some sort of alarm. I guess you missed the boat there.
jim
The picture in the auction shows the coin at its worst. The hairlines are accentuated by that picture. You cannot see a single hairline with the eye -- even under single-lens magnification. (I didn't look with a loupe.) You know the coin looked good enough in-hand to fool both buyer and seller by reading the feedback he left for me.
I had multiple emails with the buyer after the auction, before shipping the coin. FULL disclosure was made at that time. I assured him that he could return examine the coin and let me know if he wanted to keep it or not. I promised him that (because his feedback is 99+) I would refund his PayPal payment instantly, before receiving the returned coin, if he so desired.
I already explained my misinterpretation of 'GEM'. Putting 'problem-free' in the description was a mistake. I had about 10 of these coins at the time and used a template for the auction. The templates have been a source of other mistakes in other auctions. (Wrong date, wrong category, wrong picture, wrong description in general.) I had already taken 'problem free' out of other auctions and templates. I left it in this auction because the coin looks so good in hand and by being a little lazy.
Any problem with any description in the auction was rendered moot by the 'examination agreement' we had.
To those who say they will 'block both buyer and seller': You will be blocking a seller with full return privileges, 100% positive feedback, speedy shipping, great communication and decent pictures in auctions. And yes, still learning every day. As a buyer, never a retracted bid, never a slow pay, never a return, have left just a single negative due to extraordinary circumstances. When you put a block on me, please let me know.
To those who say I only decided to refund after board members "told me to": I had already made that decision before posting the thread. The problem was the buyers insistance that I cough up these other charges.
The buyer wants this:
Full refund on coin
Full refund on shipping
Shipping charges to NGC
Return shipping from NGC
Grading fees paid to NGC
I'll take my chances.
"This is a VERY NICE coin! "
This appeared in your subtitle. Anyone who has collected coins for more than a month can recognize that this coin is a pig. Therefore, either you do not know what a nice coin is or you are trying to deceive me. Either way, I do not want to take the chance. Sorry.
This should be a lesson in taking extra care when composing eBay listings that will be out there for all the world to see.
<< <i>Unless there is some "rest of the story" that we don't know about, I say no refund of expenses associated with submitting the coin to a TPG. Otherwise you did the best thing. >>
This was foolish, and the buyer does not deserve to be compensated for such. Next time, the buyer will think long and hard before submitting a coin for grading.
Hype only works when you are the US MINT and a THIRD PARTY GRADING service
It works well for politicians, too.
RYK, maybe the seller used a little too much hype, but at least he's come clean. I cannot say the same for the buyer. He is a sneak, a low life, a cheat and will use any technicality he chooses to make sure he don't get screwed, but his attempt to extort grading fees out of the buyer are bordering on INSANITY, in my opinion. The buyer may be a good business man, but he is a bad numismatist. He's the one I have the issues with, not so much the OP.
It's looking like the cat is outta the bag, though.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Free Trial
On the other hand, if I EVER sell a cleaned coin to anybody, you can bet the farm Im giving a refund. I dont want to ever be known for selling problem coins, or problem free coins that have problems.
I sold a Reverse Proof PCGS Pr70 2006 Silver Eagle to a guy who sent it back saying it wasnt a 70. The slab said 70, it was a PCGS 70, it should have been a 70. But i looked at the coin and it had a ding, right next to Libertys head. I went through all my 70s and found a real 70 and sent it to him.
On a $20 cleaned coin, I would have refunded this guy in a heartbeat, probably told him to keep the coin and put it into a type set and move on.
<< <i>I recently purchased a very nice looking large cent from a seller on Ebay, In hand it looked like it may have been laquered. Ive never seen a laquered coin, but this had a certain something to it. I sent it in to PCGS just for fun and it came back as a BB, altered surface. I was disappointed, not entirely surprised, I still like the coin, I am a big boy, I stand by my actions. I will probably do an acetone wash and see what lies beneath, but I would never have asked for my money back.
On the other hand, if I EVER sell a cleaned coin to anybody, you can bet the farm Im giving a refund. I dont want to ever be known for selling problem coins, or problem free coins that have problems.
I sold a Reverse Proof PCGS Pr70 2006 Silver Eagle to a guy who sent it back saying it wasnt a 70. The slab said 70, it was a PCGS 70, it should have been a 70. But i looked at the coin and it had a ding, right next to Libertys head. I went through all my 70s and found a real 70 and sent it to him.
On a $20 cleaned coin, I would have refunded this guy in a heartbeat, probably told him to keep the coin and put it into a type set and move on. >>
This is the kind of buyer/seller with whom I would prefer to deal.
If I had bought this coin from you (10 bucks or 400), with the same criteria I would have never asked for a refund; however, I would never look at another coin of yours again.
Again no offense intended, just the thoughts of a newer collecter, but I need the expertise of a seller when I am buying a coin! The exception being if I were buying a Morgan, Peace or something else I have studied enough to have a bit of a personal comfort level reguarding that coin.
The more I read TomB's posts, the smarter I get
Analytical minds are awesome !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
As a buyer I understand when sellers say "I am not a professional coin grader.....", big red flag.
But you do mention "This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60.".
In this case the coin did have (alledged) problems, but only a TPG was able to detect it, and there was no way that could have been identified within the return time limit you provided.
Explain that you will not refund grading costs as he had the coin in hand & he decided to send it in, also proving that the coin did not look cleaned to him either.
Then decide whether to block him from future auctions or not, and just as importantly, what to do with the coin.
JMO
If the original poster had realized this before he posted this laundry, he should have realized that it did him no service.
Now the board members know he knowingly sells cleaned coins, they know he has a problem with buyers when they cant count on his descriptions. Most board members will now doubt any coin he sells. So, that didnt work to his advantage. Other board members who may not care about that may place him into a category of one who buys problem coins, so maybe they will try to put him on their favorite buyers list, also, not doing him any real favors.
Selling and buying is learning as well. And I think we all learned some very valueable information in this post.
roadrunner
Russ, NCNE
However I do agree that the buyer should have notified the seller before sale of his intentions to have it graded, and to return if it came back BB'ed.
Anyway, as I pm'd our OP, I really do think he's made an honest effort to learn something here and made himself publicly vulnerable in the process. Good for him, and I thank him for sharing his experience for board members to learn from.
TorinoCobra71
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. >>
It is more than enough time for the buyer to make a decision. It would be utter silliness to offer a return period long enough to accomodate submission of the coin to a TPG.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting very tired of these threads where somebody asks for opinions while telling only the part of the story that favors themselves.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree 100%. I try to wait for the second shoe to drop before making a decision.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. I can see that a local coin dealer could deliver an opinion, but that opinion could lack the credibility of that delivered by a paid service from NGC or PCGS. Given the realities of TPG submissions I don't think that five weeks is an excessively long period. >>
HUH?? Fer a freakin $20 coin sold on eBay you expect a 5 week return period? Most sellers will NOT go along with the condition of a TPG opinion as part of the deal. If they would that should be stated in the auction itself and not negotiated after the auction has ended. The buyer knew it was cleaned and agreed to take it on that basis. He tried to pull a fast one and slip one by a TPG, but it backfired. He spent a bunch of $$ for nothing and now he expects someone else to pay. For most folks 10 seconds is all you need to tell if its a keeper or not.
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. >>
I'd disagree with this. There's always a chance a coin will get BB'ed on one submission and then holdered on a later try. How many tries should a seller be on the hook for? Unless the seller actually guarantees such, I don't think it's his responsibility to insure that the buyer's coin (he's already paid for it and received it) gets accepted by a TPG.
If a buyer wants a slabbed coin, he should either A) buy one already holdered or
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the few points left that I think posters keep missing here is that I don't think a 7-day policy is long enough to reasonably allow for TPG BB decisions. I can see that a local coin dealer could deliver an opinion, but that opinion could lack the credibility of that delivered by a paid service from NGC or PCGS. Given the realities of TPG submissions I don't think that five weeks is an excessively long period. >>
HUH?? Fer a freakin $20 coin sold on eBay you expect a 5 week return period? Most sellers will NOT go along with the condition of a TPG opinion as part of the deal. If they would that should be stated in the auction itself and not negotiated after the auction has ended. The buyer knew it was cleaned and agreed to take it on that basis. He tried to pull a fast one and slip one by a TPG, but it backfired. He spent a bunch of $$ for nothing and now he expects someone else to pay. For most folks 10 seconds is all you need to tell if its a keeper or not. >>
BAJJERFAN's opinion above seems consistent with the responses to my last post. (And I do enjoy its spiritedness.
I do see the reality that this is a $20 coin and that hammering out an agreement over grading would be unusual, wierd... or even ridiculous. I'm only trying to discuss the idea of post-sale grading (especially, TPG body-bagging) of coins in general.
MrPotatohead, I would have to say that the first result is the only one that should matter. If the buyer went ahead and submitted the coin twice more with the same result, wouldn't his pursuit of a refund of three $20 grading fees seem even more ridiculous?
As for the lack of integrity of the buyer in this thread, well, as accurate as speculation on that may be, it shouldn't have any impact in the ethical decision on whether or not to refund what. (The emotional decision, well sure.)
<< <i>MrPotatohead, I would have to say that the first result is the only one that should matter. If the buyer went ahead and submitted the coin twice more with the same result, wouldn't his pursuit of a refund of three $20 grading fees seem even more ridiculous? >>
Yes, I'd certainly agree there.
Unless it is stated explicitly that such an assurance is being provided, I still don't think it should be automatically assumed that a seller will guarantee a refund if a coin is BB'ed by a TPG, though.