You're refunding the purchase price, even though it's outside the 7-day window, is the right thing to do because of the overselling--which I admire your humility for admitting. If you want to give your karma a boost, refund the shipping cost, too. But if I were you, I'd sooner put a gun to my head than refund the grading fee. No way you should do that. It is an outrageous request, and good luck to this buyer if he thinks that ploy is going to work very often. What if the coin had come back MS65 or MS66? Nary a word would have been said, of course. I just sold a Buffalo nickel that I stated, very clearly in the second sentence of the description, had environmental damage. The photograph I provided was very sharp and the pitting was very obvious. Moreover, I stated very clearly that, unlike the 20 other coins I had for sale, I would NOT accept returns for the item. I then reiterated the fact it was environmentally damaged. Well, after the buyer got the coin, he e-mailed me asking me if the coin had been cleaned at some point. The nerve! He was simply headhunting/cherrypicking something he hoped would not be as described--he was gambling on something better. I flatly refused to refund his money, and if it means getting my first neg in 740 transactions, so be it. I do the same thing on boxed proof sets. I refuse to accept returns, simply because some buyers will try to find a cameo Franklin and, not finding it, will try to return the set on some other pretense. I tell them to bid assuming the Franklin is NOT a cameo.
I didn't read this thread, but to answer your question, "yes", I give refunds if one of my coins does not grade and I pay for the grading fee (standard submission).
The buyer is obviously a newbie. If you don't teach him a cheap lesson, he will likely learn elsewhere at a higher cost. Do him a favor and tell him to eat the coin like a man.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60. I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself. >>
You've got to be kidding me. You give a grade, then say that you don't know how to grade, so the buyer should ignore what you just said.
<< <i>1. I had some other coins I sold and used a boiler-plate that had a lot of this verbage in it. 2. A BIG misunderstanding on my part in the definition of GEM 3. The same with 'problem-free' I just don't use that teminology any more and left it in the template for this coin out of laziness more than intending to cheat anyone. 4. Over-salesmanship >>
Refund his money, his shipping, and his grading fees. In the future, you might wish to:
1. Accurately describe each item. 2. Look up the definition of each word you use in the auction, if you don't know what they mean. 3. Stop being "lazy" and actually take five minutes to clearly describe your coins. 4. Let the coin sell itself instead of hyping it.
I simply love your excuse about "boiler-plate verbage (sic)." In other words, it's the buyer's fault that you didn't come anywhere close to accurately describing the coin?
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>The buyer is obviously a newbie. If you don't teach him a cheap lesson, he will likely learn elsewhere at a higher cost. Do him a favor and tell him to eat the coin like a man. >>
In many cases, I would agree with you. If the ebay listing just included photos and facts and no physical description or puffery, I would agree with you 100%. In this case, both parties deserved a little bit of teaching, and the buyer still learned the most. The seller is out nothing but time and inherits a bidding pool with one fewer sucker.
The problem I see with your auction is that you note that it is "Problem Free". That coin is obviously cleaned which means it's a problem coin. An average buyer may not catch that it's cleaned and feel like they were lied to in buying a "problem free" coin.
In this case, I would refund the buyer's money because you advertised a cleaned coin as a good coin and preserve your reputation. This guy may know other potantial buyers and you may lose business as a result.
The picture provide were very clean and not out of focus or dark like most auctions. I'd say our seller needs a lesson on coins unless you think he did it on purpose. Let's face it folks it takes many years to learn how to grade coins and for most even get down to the level to know what hairlines and all problem coins look like. I for one don't think he'd be here if he thought this was a cleaned coin. He had great pictures and 7 days he better feel lucky it's a $20 coin and not a Bust half or dollar coin. It's a cheap lesson that will do him good in the long run.
Reality here is there a lesson in life that will serve you well and not all of them are good at the time. He bid he was lazy, he lost his money.
No dealer should have to underwrite the opinions of a TPG - we all know that their opinions are open to reinterpretation. The seller shouldn't have called the coin problem-free, but the refund-period had long expired. No refund, no way.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>Ttown the seller already stated he knew it was cleaned when he listed it. That can be found earlier in the thread.
Steve >>
I thought it was "he wasn't surprised" which mean he's at a certain level in what he knows and far from some on this board (or most for that part). I've been collecting most of my life but very few buy tons of books to read and learn most people in this hobby love coins and learn what they can. Collector are collectors they buy what they like and use the guides to hope for the best.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Refund his money, his shipping, and his grading fees. In the future, you might wish to: >>
HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting.
It's your call on the refund . I have to say that refunding the grading fee's is absurd . Why on earth would someone think that coin is worth grading . To bad he did'nt send it to PCGS for the quarterly , they could have BB it and the fees would not be an issue.........................
Dan
Fishing is not a matter of life and death.......It's much more important than that........
What did this buyer learn from NGC, it got BB? Not much of a lesson IMO, he learn more by buying this coin and the caution that must be taken. More than likely he'll get opinions if he buys raw again like he should have. For the cost of grading they should tell you what was wrong no matter which TPG it is IMO to advance the hobby.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission. >>
That's what's strange about some people if it graded he'd have $50 in a coin that may bring just over half. I don't mind buying that way but why people grade these common date coins for an extra 5 bucks is beyond me.
<< <i>Am I surprised to learn that it was cleaned? Not surprised at all.
He said "Not surprised at all"
Steve >>
Well considering what's out there most have been cleaned in some fashion. Market acceptable is the key term, that mean it had a bath or lightly cleaned many coins in a holder should be considered cleaned if that's what you feel. The key is finding "market acceptable" coins that will holder. Many coins in the past that would not be considered cleaned would be BB today most thought they we're making them look better and perserving them.
Let's not lose the fact that if you send a coin to the experts at PCGS, NGC, or ANACS you wouldn't get the same grade and just because it got BB once doesn't mean 2 or 3 times won't do it. In my way of thinking a guy that does this for a living needs to refund some money for the BB's.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission. >>
The original poster bought the coin for $9. In my opinion, that is a fair retail price for the coin. With MS63 written on the holder, the below market price should have set off the problem coin alert. Few dealers would offer more than $7 for that coin based on the photos which show an obviously cleaned coin, more likely $5. Problem coins don't sell too well, especially a common one.
<< <i>HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting. >>
The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." The seller freely admits that the coin was cleaned and that the description of "problem free" was an accident. Since the buyer suffered loss (grading fees) due to the seller's mistaken claim of "GEM and problem free," IMO the buyer deserves to be compensated.
Think about this scenario: a seller lists an unopened box of 10 2006 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle Sets with a first-strike eligible date. The buyer sends the unopened box directly to PCGS. The receiving department at PCGS determines that the box was actually opened and then resealed, thus the coins are not eligible for the first strike label. They send them back, ungraded, at the buyer's expense. Do you really think the buyer should suffer loss (in this case, the loss of shipping to and from PCGS) because the seller lied...or "accidentally" used a template that did not accurately describe the product?
In my opinion, if you describe an item incorrectly, and a buyer purchases the item based on the incorrect description, you should be liable for any loss the buyer suffers. Do you really think the buyer would have submitted it to a TPG if the seller had accurately described the coin as cleaned?
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting. >>
The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." The seller freely admits that the coin was cleaned and that the description of "problem free" was an accident. Since the buyer suffered loss (grading fees) due to the seller's mistaken claim of "GEM and problem free," IMO the buyer deserves to be compensated.
Think about this scenario: a seller lists an unopened box of 10 2006 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle Sets with a first-strike eligible date. The buyer sends the unopened box directly to PCGS. The receiving department at PCGS determines that the box was actually opened and then resealed, thus the coins are not eligible for the first strike label. They send them back, ungraded, at the buyer's expense. Do you really think the buyer should suffer loss (in this case, the loss of shipping to and from PCGS) because the seller lied...or "accidentally" used a template that did not accurately describe the product?
In my opinion, if you describe an item incorrectly, and a buyer purchases the item based on the incorrect description, you should be liable for any loss the buyer suffers. Do you really think the buyer would have submitted it to a TPG if the seller had accurately described the coin as cleaned? >>
I agree but that's in a timely manner, who says he really sent the coin in at all? You don't get forever to return a purchase and he had a lot of time. The buyer may have found someone that told him it was cleaned and that's his story. To bad so sad that's life isn't it? You car breaks a day after warrenty and you pay, his warrenty was up about 600% so it's not even close.
I'ts not like he's saying I didn't get a full 7 days after I recieved the coin. Funny how some are so down on people that post here when considering what to do while I think 90% of this board would never have posted anyting and just deleted the message.
ddink you make a good point, however, the seller also stated that he was not a professional grader. the buyer took it upon himself to send it in for grading. We have no idea what he (the buyer) would do had the seller stated from the beginning that it was cleaned.
<< <i>We have no idea what he (the buyer) would do had the seller stated from the beginning that it was cleaned. >>
Yes we DO know what the buyer would do. Because he and I exchanged emails about this. (He didn't ask until any questions after the auction.) The upshot of those emails was, he would buy the coin and return for a full refund, including shipping, if he didn't like it. Which are the same parameters for anything I sell.
<< <i>I am getting the feeling that AB wishes he never asked this board for an opinion.
Steve >>
I would be too he's considering what should be done and some people on this board seem to act like he's a con artist, of course they would have never posted anything just delete the emal and not worry about it. I can really see both side but if I was even considering giving a refund (which I wouldn't be) I have him cough up the recipt for the NGC submission. The TPG's can't even agree on a grade or what's BB or slabbed sometimes so us mortals should be held to a higher standard. I do what I say and would go the extra mile if it'd been maybe 2 weeks but that would be it and I'd expect the same for those I buy from and no more. He was lazy, it's not when you get around to it you might look into it. He should have ask questions before the auction or at least informed him what he was doing.
<< <i>Now the board members know he knowingly sells cleaned coins >>
Which is why I'm glad I read this thread. These boards are great for learning who NOT to do business with.
<< <i>however, the seller also stated that he was not a professional grader >>
...and in the same breath, he made an assertion about the coin's grade. You can't have it both ways--what rational person says "I know nothing about houses, but this one is built solid." Either you know enough to give the coin a grade, or you don't know enough and let the pictures speak for themselves.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>Which is why I'm glad I read this thread. These boards are great for learning who NOT to do business with. >>
Are you sure that you read the WHOLE thread?
Guess you missed this.
<<"There was a lot more to this transaction, and a lot of communication between me and the buyer after the auction was over. One of the things the buyer and I discussed was whether the coin had been cleaned. This communication took place before the coin was shipped.
So everyone who has criticized me and (correctly, I admit to my embarassment) said I overstated the coin is indeed correct, but there were other factors that went into this transaction.
Not the least of which was a promise by me that he could return the coin for any reason -- after he had a chance to examine it in hand. He was not held to any time particular frame, just that he get a chance to examine the coin and decide if he wanted to keep it. My whole problem is that he extended his 'examination' to include certification. I think his examination should be considered complete when he left positive feedback.
Plus, the buyer is no babe in the woods. He sells 20 times more coins than I do and he thought enough of the coin (IN HAND) to send it for grading. He had plenty of time to unwind the deal without further ado and recoup every cent. ">>
<< <i>The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." >>
Oh really? How can you be so sure of that? He probably submitted it because as the OP said, you can't tell by looking at it in hand that it was cleaned.
Chuckle. I have learned quite a bit. I now know that GEM and UNC are 2 different animals. I think I live in a solidly built house, but am not a professional real eastate appraiser. The wheels have all their lug nuts. Can anyone tell me where to get Photoshop for a decent price? Just kidding.
I am going to change several things. First off
- Snap - Copy - Crop - Post
is changing to this:
- Snap - Copy - Crop: - Take a quick look at the photo - Post
I really screwed the pooch with that auction. I think I will cover all the buyer's charges to get that coin back -- and see it again for myself.
An opinion is an opinion, it's nothing more than a opinion whether it's raw or certified. Go read what the major auction houses say about certified coins, they won't even stand by them. They won't even stand by what they say in the descriptions they elaborate on. It's legalized deception if you'd ask me! Whether the seller said Gem and/or MS60, the buyer should have asked what it was since we are to assume this buter can read. Why anyone would expect their money back after an expired 7 day return policy and expect grading fees on top of that is off with the geese! If this buyer wanted certified, then he needs to buy certified coins. Unless they had an agreement for certification purposes which I would had never agreed to, that he would be better off buying a slabbed coin since that's what he wanted! The value of the coin........$22.50....another $25 in certification fees........I would have encouraged him to buy a slabbed coin!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
We have no idea what he (the buyer) would do had the seller stated from the beginning that it was cleaned. >>
Yes we DO know what the buyer would do. Because he and I exchanged emails about this.
then what advice did you need?
my reply that you quoted was to ddink and his assertion that the guy would not have sent it in to grading had he known it was cleaned. I simply stated that we do not know that. Or do we?
You now say that he did know it was cleaned and that he was going to send it in to NGC anyway? Is that what you are saying?
If so then I have no idea why you needed advice. You exchanged emails with him and all this was sorted out?
lol
Like Russ mentioned earlier just another thread where dribs and drabs of a situation come out and then the thread takes on 27 tangents.
So at what point did the buyer know it was cleaned?
After the auction, before it was shipped. It was a last-minute bid, probably a snipe, but that's fine.
It just dawned on me--he may have confused the respective rarities of the "with CENTS" and "No CENTS" varieties and only later realized he was dealing with the more common variety. That would explain his refusal to cancel the auction and his decision to get the coin graded.
The CENTS vs. NO CENTS mental flip would be an easy mind-slip to make. Just a thought.
Your only recourse is to refund the price of the coin plus grading fees and shipping. That is if you plan on being a serious dealer. If you call it a mint state it better well grade at least AU 55. Dont sell cleaned coins and this wont happen again.
<< <i>Your only recourse is to refund the price of the coin plus grading fees and shipping. That is if you plan on being a serious dealer. If you call it a mint state it better well grade at least AU 55. Dont sell cleaned coins and this wont happen again. >>
Yow, Go to your local coin shop and pick out a coin, most won't even take it back but if they agree to 7 days I wouldn't hold my breath getting your money back if you sent it in. Let the buyer beware, what a grade is and if it can be graded is a gray area many times.
Yow, Go to your local coin shop and pick out a coin, most won't even take it back but if they agree to 7 days I wouldn't hold my breath getting your money back if you sent it in. Let the buyer beware, what a grade is and if it can be graded is a gray area many times.
<< <i>Based on the very limited information you have provided us, there is no way I would even communicate further with this person outside of an initial email telling them that they are beyond the return period agreed to in auction and the coin cannot be returned. >>
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
you should refund the $$$, here's why, you said This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60. had you simply said it "grades unc-60" that's all & well, as i'd agree, but the coin is NOT PROBLEM FREE as you stated twice. it's plainly cleaned, even from the misleading digi-pics
yeah, the buyer is a total moron, but it's because he wants to return the coin for the wrong reason, which is that some nameless, faceless 3pg company won't grade it. that's a stupid reason the return the coin, but he should be able to return it even after 5 weeks. your auction makes false assertions.
If I see a raw coin from a dealer and I am not certain on the grade or its authenticity I will ask the dealer to send it to the TPG of my choice. I will pay all postage and grading fees. If the dealer won't do that. I walk away. This is what this customer should have done. Either pay for the grading fees and postage or walk away.
No way. Isnt that why we pay a 3rd party to grade our coins? If you dont like the grade take it up with them (the grading co.). When I sell a PCGS or NGC coin I am selling that coin as graded by PCGS or NGC, respectively. Now if I make a grade guaranty outside of what the slab says then that may be a different story.
Hi, I know I am new to these forums. I'm not new to coins though.
Here is what was said in the ad.
"This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60. "
Here's the problem as I see it. A buyer has the right to expect that a dealer is a better grader since that is the dealers business.
The coin in the picture is apparently not problem free, doesn't have great eye appeal and doesn't grade MS-60.
It is easy to see that there is no luster, and that the surface of the coin was tampered with. You can see the hairlines and rubs in the picture.
That means that the coin should not have been described as it was. It is rare to be able to get a coin to a TPG and get it back within 7 days.
The discalimer about not being a grader doesn't hold up in my opinion as you graded the coin.
The buyer absolutely deserves a refund and if he had any suspicion about the grade and I think he rightfully did, he deserves at least a part of his fee for having to have the coin looked at. It if came back AU-58 , I would say tough... but it was body bagged for what any experienced collector could see is a tampered with surface.
Noone is saying you tampered with it, but the coin should not have been represented as MS-60 .
Thanks, Bill PS: I know I'll get my head handed to me, i usually do but I feel the buyer here has a right to receive a refund Plus.
You obviously didn't read the whole thread, (not that I blame you) but you should do that before posting.
<< <i>Here's the problem as I see it. A buyer has the right to expect that a dealer is a better grader since that is the dealers business. >>
What? As it turns out, the person I sold the coin to is a POWER SELLER having many times more coin sales than I. He sells 100+ coins a month.
<< <i>The coin in the picture is apparently not problem free, doesn't have great eye appeal and doesn't grade MS-60. >>
I placed the picture in the auction, working with THUMBNAILS. It is old news at this point--the picture shows the coin worse than it looks to the eye--but I have stiputlated this mistake several times already. It was a mistake.
My communications with the buyer after the auction was over, before shipping the coin, gives me a clear conscience about the sale.
I offered to cancel the auction which had the unintended effect of making the buyer DEMAND that he get the coin. (He was well appraised of the mistakes in describing the coin.) I sent him the coin with the understanding that he would look at it in hand and then decide if he wanted to keep it. TPG was not discussed.
<< <i>The discalimer about not being a grader doesn't hold up in my opinion as you graded the coin. >>
The buyer, a power seller, far more experienced than I, had this to say about the coin after he received it: Very nice item as described+++Recommend to others!!!
I will have such a disclaimer in all of my ads. I am not a professional coin grader. The coin was sold to me by a member of this forum as MS-63. I placed the coin for sale the same day I bought it.
<< <i>Noone is saying you tampered with it, but the coin should not have been represented as MS-60 . >>
It shouldn't have been represented as MS63 either. We all make mistakes.
Not for nothing but a few have mentioned that the buyer is a power seller that sells coins etc. Did anyone bother to look at the coins he sells?
When I looked he was selling modern coins that he got from the mint. I admit i did not look beyond his current offerings, with that said lets not assume that he is a coin dealer with knowledge in classic coins.
Comments
But if I were you, I'd sooner put a gun to my head than refund the grading fee. No way you should do that. It is an outrageous request, and good luck to this buyer if he thinks that ploy is going to work very often. What if the coin had come back MS65 or MS66? Nary a word would have been said, of course.
I just sold a Buffalo nickel that I stated, very clearly in the second sentence of the description, had environmental damage. The photograph I provided was very sharp and the pitting was very obvious. Moreover, I stated very clearly that, unlike the 20 other coins I had for sale, I would NOT accept returns for the item. I then reiterated the fact it was environmentally damaged. Well, after the buyer got the coin, he e-mailed me asking me if the coin had been cleaned at some point. The nerve! He was simply headhunting/cherrypicking something he hoped would not be as described--he was gambling on something better. I flatly refused to refund his money, and if it means getting my first neg in 740 transactions, so be it.
I do the same thing on boxed proof sets. I refuse to accept returns, simply because some buyers will try to find a cameo Franklin and, not finding it, will try to return the set on some other pretense. I tell them to bid assuming the Franklin is NOT a cameo.
I didn't read this thread, but to answer your question, "yes", I give refunds if one of my coins does not grade and I pay for the grading fee (standard submission).
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60.
I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself.
>>
You've got to be kidding me. You give a grade, then say that you don't know how to grade, so the buyer should ignore what you just said.
<< <i>1. I had some other coins I sold and used a boiler-plate that had a lot of this verbage in it.
2. A BIG misunderstanding on my part in the definition of GEM
3. The same with 'problem-free' I just don't use that teminology any more and left it in the template for this coin out of laziness more than intending to cheat anyone.
4. Over-salesmanship >>
Refund his money, his shipping, and his grading fees. In the future, you might wish to:
1. Accurately describe each item.
2. Look up the definition of each word you use in the auction, if you don't know what they mean.
3. Stop being "lazy" and actually take five minutes to clearly describe your coins.
4. Let the coin sell itself instead of hyping it.
I simply love your excuse about "boiler-plate verbage (sic)." In other words, it's the buyer's fault that you didn't come anywhere close to accurately describing the coin?
<< <i>The buyer is obviously a newbie. If you don't teach him a cheap lesson, he will likely learn elsewhere at a higher cost. Do him a favor and tell him to eat the coin like a man. >>
In many cases, I would agree with you. If the ebay listing just included photos and facts and no physical description or puffery, I would agree with you 100%. In this case, both parties deserved a little bit of teaching, and the buyer still learned the most. The seller is out nothing but time and inherits a bidding pool with one fewer sucker.
In this case, I would refund the buyer's money because you advertised a cleaned coin as a good coin and preserve your reputation. This guy may know other potantial buyers and you may lose business as a result.
WheatFanatic
Reality here is there a lesson in life that will serve you well and not all of them are good at the time. He bid he was lazy, he lost his money.
Steve
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>Ttown the seller already stated he knew it was cleaned when he listed it. That can be found earlier in the thread.
Steve >>
I thought it was "he wasn't surprised" which mean he's at a certain level in what he knows and far from some on this board (or most for that part). I've been collecting most of my life but very few buy tons of books to read and learn most people in this hobby love coins and learn what they can. Collector are collectors they buy what they like and use the guides to hope for the best.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Refund his money, his shipping, and his grading fees. In the future, you might wish to: >>
HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting.
Why on earth would someone think that coin is worth grading . To bad he did'nt send it to PCGS for the quarterly , they could have BB it and the fees would not be an issue.........................
Dan
<< <i>Let's not lose sight of two things.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission. >>
That's what's strange about some people if it graded he'd have $50 in a coin that may bring just over half. I don't mind buying that way but why people grade these common date coins for an extra 5 bucks is beyond me.
He said "Not surprised at all"
Steve
<< <i>Am I surprised to learn that it was cleaned? Not surprised at all.
He said "Not surprised at all"
Steve >>
Well considering what's out there most have been cleaned in some fashion. Market acceptable is the key term, that mean it had a bath or lightly cleaned many coins in a holder should be considered cleaned if that's what you feel. The key is finding "market acceptable" coins that will holder. Many coins in the past that would not be considered cleaned would be BB today most thought they we're making them look better and perserving them.
Let's not lose the fact that if you send a coin to the experts at PCGS, NGC, or ANACS you wouldn't get the same grade and just because it got BB once doesn't mean 2 or 3 times won't do it. In my way of thinking a guy that does this for a living needs to refund some money for the BB's.
<< <i>Let's not lose sight of two things.
1. A slabworthy MS60 is worth $20 to $25. A lightly cleaned piece coin that would otherwise grade MS60 is worth $16 to $22. This is a battle over three or four bucks.
2. The coin might slab on it's next submission. >>
The original poster bought the coin for $9. In my opinion, that is a fair retail price for the coin. With MS63 written on the holder, the below market price should have set off the problem coin alert. Few dealers would offer more than $7 for that coin based on the photos which show an obviously cleaned coin, more likely $5. Problem coins don't sell too well, especially a common one.
<< <i>HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting. >>
The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." The seller freely admits that the coin was cleaned and that the description of "problem free" was an accident. Since the buyer suffered loss (grading fees) due to the seller's mistaken claim of "GEM and problem free," IMO the buyer deserves to be compensated.
Think about this scenario: a seller lists an unopened box of 10 2006 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle Sets with a first-strike eligible date. The buyer sends the unopened box directly to PCGS. The receiving department at PCGS determines that the box was actually opened and then resealed, thus the coins are not eligible for the first strike label. They send them back, ungraded, at the buyer's expense. Do you really think the buyer should suffer loss (in this case, the loss of shipping to and from PCGS) because the seller lied...or "accidentally" used a template that did not accurately describe the product?
In my opinion, if you describe an item incorrectly, and a buyer purchases the item based on the incorrect description, you should be liable for any loss the buyer suffers. Do you really think the buyer would have submitted it to a TPG if the seller had accurately described the coin as cleaned?
<< <i>
<< <i>HUH?? The fact that he the seller opined a grade of ms60 is no guarantee that any TPG will holder it. In fact, there is no guarantee that any TPG will give the same grade on two consecutive submissions. The buyer [of his own free will] chose to submit the coin to a TPG outside of any other agreement which had been made, therefore he is due NO reimbursement for his costs of submitting. >>
The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." The seller freely admits that the coin was cleaned and that the description of "problem free" was an accident. Since the buyer suffered loss (grading fees) due to the seller's mistaken claim of "GEM and problem free," IMO the buyer deserves to be compensated.
Think about this scenario: a seller lists an unopened box of 10 2006 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle Sets with a first-strike eligible date. The buyer sends the unopened box directly to PCGS. The receiving department at PCGS determines that the box was actually opened and then resealed, thus the coins are not eligible for the first strike label. They send them back, ungraded, at the buyer's expense. Do you really think the buyer should suffer loss (in this case, the loss of shipping to and from PCGS) because the seller lied...or "accidentally" used a template that did not accurately describe the product?
In my opinion, if you describe an item incorrectly, and a buyer purchases the item based on the incorrect description, you should be liable for any loss the buyer suffers. Do you really think the buyer would have submitted it to a TPG if the seller had accurately described the coin as cleaned? >>
I agree but that's in a timely manner, who says he really sent the coin in at all? You don't get forever to return a purchase and he had a lot of time. The buyer may have found someone that told him it was cleaned and that's his story. To bad so sad that's life isn't it? You car breaks a day after warrenty and you pay, his warrenty was up about 600% so it's not even close.
I'ts not like he's saying I didn't get a full 7 days after I recieved the coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Now the board members know he knowingly sells cleaned coins >>
inflamatory rubbish
Steve
Steve
<< <i>We have no idea what he (the buyer) would do had the seller stated from the beginning that it was cleaned. >>
Yes we DO know what the buyer would do. Because he and I exchanged emails about this. (He didn't ask until any questions after the auction.) The upshot of those emails was, he would buy the coin and return for a full refund, including shipping, if he didn't like it. Which are the same parameters for anything I sell.
<< <i>I am getting the feeling that AB wishes he never asked this board for an opinion. >>
He's certainly not the first in that regard.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I am getting the feeling that AB wishes he never asked this board for an opinion.
Steve >>
I would be too he's considering what should be done and some people on this board seem to act like he's a con artist, of course they would have never posted anything just delete the emal and not worry about it. I can really see both side but if I was even considering giving a refund (which I wouldn't be) I have him cough up the recipt for the NGC submission. The TPG's can't even agree on a grade or what's BB or slabbed sometimes so us mortals should be held to a higher standard. I do what I say and would go the extra mile if it'd been maybe 2 weeks but that would be it and I'd expect the same for those I buy from and no more. He was lazy, it's not when you get around to it you might look into it. He should have ask questions before the auction or at least informed him what he was doing.
<< <i>Now the board members know he knowingly sells cleaned coins >>
Which is why I'm glad I read this thread. These boards are great for learning who NOT to do business with.
<< <i>however, the seller also stated that he was not a professional grader >>
...and in the same breath, he made an assertion about the coin's grade. You can't have it both ways--what rational person says "I know nothing about houses, but this one is built solid." Either you know enough to give the coin a grade, or you don't know enough and let the pictures speak for themselves.
I'd refund the full price of the coin for another two weeks after that if the buyer wanted to return it.
Under no circumstances would I pay for anyone's grading fees, and the returned coin must be in the holder and condition sent
PS: you overdescribed the coin, and should accept the return, IMO. (He's SOL on the grading fees)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Which is why I'm glad I read this thread. These boards are great for learning who NOT to do business with. >>
Are you sure that you read the WHOLE thread?
Guess you missed this.
<<"There was a lot more to this transaction, and a lot of communication between me and the buyer after the auction was over. One of the things the buyer and I discussed was whether the coin had been cleaned. This communication took place before the coin was shipped.
So everyone who has criticized me and (correctly, I admit to my embarassment) said I overstated the coin is indeed correct, but there were other factors that went into this transaction.
Not the least of which was a promise by me that he could return the coin for any reason -- after he had a chance to examine it in hand. He was not held to any time particular frame, just that he get a chance to examine the coin and decide if he wanted to keep it. My whole problem is that he extended his 'examination' to include certification. I think his examination should be considered complete when he left positive feedback.
Plus, the buyer is no babe in the woods. He sells 20 times more coins than I do and he thought enough of the coin (IN HAND) to send it for grading. He had plenty of time to unwind the deal without further ado and recoup every cent. ">>
<< <i>The buyer submitted the coin to a TPG based on the seller's statement that the coin was "GEM" and "problem free." >>
Oh really? How can you be so sure of that? He probably submitted it because as the OP said, you can't tell by looking at it in hand that it was cleaned.
Chuckle. I have learned quite a bit. I now know that GEM and UNC are 2 different animals. I think I live in a solidly built house, but am not a professional real eastate appraiser. The wheels have all their lug nuts. Can anyone tell me where to get Photoshop for a decent price? Just kidding.
I am going to change several things. First off
- Snap
- Copy
- Crop
- Post
is changing to this:
- Snap
- Copy
- Crop:
- Take a quick look at the photo
- Post
I really screwed the pooch with that auction. I think I will cover all the buyer's charges to get that coin back -- and see it again for myself.
Unless they had an agreement for certification purposes which I would had never agreed to, that he would be better off buying a slabbed coin since that's what he wanted! The value of the coin........$22.50....another $25 in certification fees........I would have encouraged him to buy a slabbed coin!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Yes we DO know what the buyer would do. Because he and I exchanged emails about this.
then what advice did you need?
my reply that you quoted was to ddink and his assertion that the guy would not have sent it in to grading had he known it was cleaned. I simply stated that we do not know that. Or do we?
You now say that he did know it was cleaned and that he was going to send it in to NGC anyway? Is that what you are saying?
If so then I have no idea why you needed advice. You exchanged emails with him and all this was sorted out?
lol
Like Russ mentioned earlier just another thread where dribs and drabs of a situation come out and then the thread takes on 27 tangents.
So at what point did the buyer know it was cleaned?
After the auction, before it was shipped. It was a last-minute bid, probably a snipe, but that's fine.
It just dawned on me--he may have confused the respective rarities of the "with CENTS" and "No CENTS" varieties and only later realized he was dealing with the more common variety. That would explain his refusal to cancel the auction and his decision to get the coin graded.
The CENTS vs. NO CENTS mental flip would be an easy mind-slip to make. Just a thought.
Way too many tangents.
<< <i>Your only recourse is to refund the price of the coin plus grading fees and shipping. That is if you plan on being a serious dealer. If you call it a mint state it better well grade at least AU 55. Dont sell cleaned coins and this wont happen again. >>
Yow, Go to your local coin shop and pick out a coin, most won't even take it back but if they agree to 7 days I wouldn't hold my breath getting your money back if you sent it in. Let the buyer beware, what a grade is and if it can be graded is a gray area many times.
Thats why I choose my dealers carefully!
<< <i>In this case I'd refund his dough, not the dough he gave NGC nor his shipping.
I'd refund the auction total.
I'm sure you would get the same coin back. >>
<< <i>Based on the very limited information you have provided us, there is no way I would even communicate further with this person outside of an initial email telling them that they are beyond the return period agreed to in auction and the coin cannot be returned. >>
yeah, the buyer is a total moron, but it's because he wants to return the coin for the wrong reason, which is that some nameless, faceless 3pg company won't grade it. that's a stupid reason the return the coin, but he should be able to return it even after 5 weeks. your auction makes false assertions.
K S
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
I know I am new to these forums. I'm not new to coins though.
Here is what was said in the ad.
"This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60. "
Here's the problem as I see it. A buyer has the right to expect that a dealer is a better grader since that is the dealers business.
The coin in the picture is apparently not problem free, doesn't have great eye appeal and doesn't grade MS-60.
It is easy to see that there is no luster, and that the surface of the coin was tampered with. You can see the hairlines and rubs in the picture.
That means that the coin should not have been described as it was. It is rare to be able to get a coin to a TPG and get it back within 7 days.
The discalimer about not being a grader doesn't hold up in my opinion as you graded the coin.
The buyer absolutely deserves a refund and if he had any suspicion about the grade and I think he rightfully did, he deserves at least a part of his fee for having to have the coin looked at. It if came back AU-58 , I would say tough... but it was body bagged for what any experienced collector could see is a tampered with surface.
Noone is saying you tampered with it, but the coin should not have been represented as MS-60 .
Thanks,
Bill
PS: I know I'll get my head handed to me, i usually do but I feel the buyer here has a right to receive a refund Plus.
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com
<< <i>Here's the problem as I see it. A buyer has the right to expect that a dealer is a better grader since that is the dealers business. >>
What? As it turns out, the person I sold the coin to is a POWER SELLER having many times more coin sales than I. He sells 100+ coins a month.
<< <i>The coin in the picture is apparently not problem free, doesn't have great eye appeal and doesn't grade MS-60. >>
I placed the picture in the auction, working with THUMBNAILS. It is old news at this point--the picture shows the coin worse than it looks to the eye--but I have stiputlated this mistake several times already. It was a mistake.
My communications with the buyer after the auction was over, before shipping the coin, gives me a clear conscience about the sale.
I offered to cancel the auction which had the unintended effect of making the buyer DEMAND that he get the coin. (He was well appraised of the mistakes in describing the coin.) I sent him the coin with the understanding that he would look at it in hand and then decide if he wanted to keep it. TPG was not discussed.
<< <i>The discalimer about not being a grader doesn't hold up in my opinion as you graded the coin. >>
The buyer, a power seller, far more experienced than I, had this to say about the coin after he received it: Very nice item as described+++Recommend to others!!!
I will have such a disclaimer in all of my ads. I am not a professional coin grader. The coin was sold to me by a member of this forum as MS-63. I placed the coin for sale the same day I bought it.
<< <i>Noone is saying you tampered with it, but the coin should not have been represented as MS-60 . >>
It shouldn't have been represented as MS63 either. We all make mistakes.
Now, if you want this person as a customer for the next 10 or 20 years give them a refund and thank them for their time....
AL
When I looked he was selling modern coins that he got from the mint. I admit i did not look beyond his current offerings, with that said lets not assume that he is a coin dealer with knowledge in classic coins.
Steve