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Do you give refunds when a coin doesn't grade?
ABSilvercoins
Posts: 309
What would YOU do under these circumstances?
I had a buyer who wants a refund 5 weeks after auction closed. He sent the coin I sold him to a TPG and it came back in a body bag. He wants a refund on the coin and me to pay for the grading fees.
<< <i>It was returned in a body bag since its condition was artificially compromised. I will assume you will understand since I paid an additonal $20.00 in fees to NGC only to find this is not a GEM coin in reality not fit for grading, you will do the right thing and refund the costs. As you know when we sell coins on e-Bay there is a check list concerning the item integrity. I am sure this was an error on your part. >>
and he finishes with
<< <i>Please respond by noon PDT 4.2.07 so this may be resolved amicably. Thank you. >>
My auction had a 7-day return policy and a disclamer:
<< <i> I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself. >>
His feedback left for me was:
<< <i>Very nice item as described+++Recommend to others!!! >>
I'd rather not discuss the actual condition or grade of the coin, the point being that when he received the coin, he AGREED with my opinion of the coin's condition. He only wants a refund after getting bagged by TPG.
//ab
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
-Paul
<< <i>If I buy a coin from a dealer as a 63, and I send it to PCGS or NGC, and it BB, I would expect him to stand behind his grade and refund part or all of the purchase price. >>
You're kidding, right?
Russ, NCNE
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>I'm thinking of one word that has two letters, starts with an n and ends with an o.
Russ, NCNE >>
''
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It depends on if you offered a grade opinion in the auction. If I buy a coin from a dealer as a 63, and I send it to PCGS or NGC, and it BB, I would expect him to stand behind his grade and refund part or all of the purchase price. >>
I don't know... it's pretty much common knowledge that the TPGs will certify on subsequent submissions the same coin they previously BB'ed, so I think it's kind of unfair to insist that a seller be obligated to refund in that case.
<< <i><< I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself. >> >>
But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Select that night!!!
<< <i>
<< <i><< I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself. >> >>
But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Select that night!!! >>
Here is a great question, too.
My question would be , did you knowingly sell a coin that would body bag?
by Djord
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It would help to see a link to the auction in question. >>
Auction in question
This coin is problem-free, has excellent eye appeal and grades UNC-60.
I am not a professional coin grader, so please view the photos and judge the coin's condition for yourself.
I suppose you covered yourself there and the guy is probably out of luck. My 14 year old was looking at the pics over my shoulder and said Dad - don't buy it, it's cleaned (Thinking I was looking to bid). I think both parties should have realized this, but I don't think the buyer has much recourse here.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>It would help to see a link to the auction in question >>
I am not wanting to limit the information as much as keep the thread on topic of "what would YOU do?" Not argue about whether the coin has been cleaned. (NGC says it has been cleaned. I will accept that assessment.)
<< <i>My question would be , did you knowingly sell a coin that would body bag? >>
No. I sold the coin (in MY mind) as a coin not worth grading at all. I paid $9.00 for the coin and it sold for $22.50. I'm surprised anyone would spend the money to have it graded.
Am I surprised to learn that it was cleaned? Not surprised at all.
I may list a coin at a particular grade but I always will say that "it is MY opinion"...and when I list a TPG coin, I always say that the grade is "The TPG's opinion".
<< <i>I'm thinking of one word that has two letters, starts with an n and ends with an o.
Russ, NCNE >>
What do you mean by, "on?"
-Cherwood
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>... only to find this is not a GEM coin in reality ... >>
Where'd the buyer get this idea ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Trying to buy a coin for raw money and demanding that it slab puts all the risk on the seller.
[Edit to add: In a scenario like this, the only thing I guarantee is authenticity after a reasonable return period has passed. If it's fake I take it back, otherwise pound sand.]
[Edited again to add: Wow. This coin obviously looks cleaned to me. Did you really sell it as "problem-free?" I still think the buyer's SOL here but arguably they have a good case based on misrepresentation.]
<< <i>
<< <i>... only to find this is not a GEM coin in reality ... >>
Where'd the buyer get this idea ? >>
From the auction title.....
cleaned coins have a problem.
Steve
In this case I'd refund his dough, not the dough he gave NGC nor his shipping.
I'd refund the auction total.
I'm sure you would get the same coin back.
<< <i>Where'd the buyer get this idea ? >>
Who knows where people get their ideas? I have a link in my auctions to a page with grading definitions indicating "BU=MS60, Ch BU=MS63, Gem BU=MS65", and a buyer of a coin described as "BU" complained because he didn't think it was MS64+.
Well, neither did I.
edited to add... I see the listing title did say "GEM", so I guess it is possible to come away with that idea, as long as one doesn't read the description indicating UNC-60...
<< <i>
<< <i>Where'd the buyer get this idea ? >>
Who knows where people get their ideas? I have a link in my auctions to a page with grading definitions indicating "BU=MS60, Ch BU=MS63, Gem BU=MS65", and a buyer of a coin described as "BU" complained because he didn't think it was MS64+.
Well, neither did I. >>
EXCELLENT post ! Thank you for that, too. I still have to side a little bit with the buyer after Becky made this point about the "cleaning". Also, if a buyer is ignorant, a seller is really not responsible to educate the buyer... but...
A true numismatist is fair, honest and subject to a higher standard.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If I were the buyer, I would be unhappy about the BB, and would ask for a refund. But... you certainly didn't promise to pay for grading fees, so the buyer is way out of line there.
Plus, the buyer had a chance to check the coin for problems before submitting. If they couldn't tell it was cleaned, and had to pay NGC to tell them, then they should be out that $.
As the seller, I would offer the refund, but not the grading fees. I do think the buyer is trouble though, no matter what, and would block him. Actually, I just did!
I honestly don't know, but I would refund the twenty-two fifty and shipping. C'mon, you represented the coin as "problem free" and NGC body bagged it.
Granted, this sounds like an unsophisticated buyer, and he should have cleared this grading arrangement with you before buying. As I recall from reading ANA guidelines, suggested return policies are spelled out for members, and buyers are expected to inform dealers of their intent to have purchased coins graded at sale.
However, this isn't a matter of a 63 coin coming back as a 62. It's a cleaned coin -- in the opinion of NGC, anyway -- being misrepresented as "problem free," and I see the counterargument points to technicalities like the 7-day return policy and positive feedback to explain why an internet buyer should "pound sand." Please. You're compromising your integrity over thirty bucks.
<< <i>What would YOU do under these circumstances?
>>
Okay- to answer the original question... if I honestly thought the coin was truly GEM, I'd tell the buyer he could return the coin at his expense for a refund of the final bid total (shipping not included). If not, I'd take the coin back for a full refund (final bid + shipping) and refund his return shipping expenses.
This would be dependent on his acting like a rational human being. As soon as the psycho emails begin, the deal is done.
<< <i>A true numismatist is fair, honest and subject to a higher standard. >>
I put the coin up for auction the same day I bought it. I bought it from a true numismatist who has been selling coins 30 years. It had MS63 on the 2x2.
I will give the buyer his money back -- but I hate the fact that he LOVED the coin until it was bagged.
The coin is not a gem and obviously cleaned. Listing it as problem free and using gem in the title seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.
The seller needs some education, though the buyer needs it more. The price of tuition is a lot steeper for the buyer, between the grading fee, and all the shipping charges, the buyer probably has about $60 in this coin. For any new collectors reading along, that $60 would buy a decent certified example though not a gem MS65 one. The ideal solution would be for the seller to refund the $22.50 bid and chalk it up as inexpensive tuition. The seller is under no obligation to refund the money. However, if I were judge and jury, that is the settlement that seems most fair, and the one that will make the seller much more reluctant to buy the next cleaned junk coin and list it as a "gem, problem free" coin on Ebay.
<< <i>If I were the buyer, I would be unhappy about the BB, and would ask for a refund. >>
If the buyer needs a TPG to tell him when a coin is cleaned then he should not be buying raw coins. He's SOL on a refund.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>This would be dependent on his acting like a rational human being. As soon as the psycho emails begin, the deal is done. >>
Someone want to invite him to the party? He may be a member anyhow, he's a Powerseller with 80-some auctions at the moment. Interesting he has $1100 coins for sale, but couldn't see those hairlines? Winner's Auctions
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>A true numismatist is fair, honest and subject to a higher standard. >>
I put the coin up for auction the same day I bought it. I bought it from a true numismatist who has been selling coins 30 years. It had MS63 on the 2x2.
I will give the buyer his money back -- but I hate the fact that he LOVED the coin until it was bagged. >>
I had a similar experience as an, ahem, unsophisticated buyer after buying a 1916-S dime that I was really proud of. I discovered it was cleaned months later, when photographing it. Did that coin-show dealer not have any business cards for a reason?
Probably not. Honest mistakes happen. Good for you for refunding. (And to be clear, I would probably draw the line at refunding the grading fees myself.)
<< <i>Someone want to invite him to the party? >>
Just to be clear, the "psycho" comment was regarding a generic, non-specific buyer- I wasn't commenting regarding any particular person.
Is that sufficient as a disclaimer, or do I need to grovel some more?
<< <i>Plus, the buyer had a chance to check the coin for problems before submitting. If they couldn't tell it was cleaned, and had to pay NGC to tell them, then they should be out that $. >>
The damage from cleaning that you see in the photo is just not visible in hand or with a simple magnifying glass. (Now we discuss whether that's true or not.)
<< <i>
<< <i>A true numismatist is fair, honest and subject to a higher standard. >>
I put the coin up for auction the same day I bought it. I bought it from a true numismatist who has been selling coins 30 years. It had MS63 on the 2x2.
I will give the buyer his money back -- but I hate the fact that he LOVED the coin until it was bagged. >>
You are a man of integrity and I will gladly help you foot this bill !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Overall, I stand by what I wrote previously in that a refusal to offer a refund is fine, in my opinion, but I think your auction contained substantially more hype and possible dishonesty than should be acceptable.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>What was the purpose for writing GEM in the title? >>
4 reasons
1. I had some other coins I sold and used a boiler-plate that had a lot of this verbage in it.
2. A BIG misunderstanding on my part in the definition of GEM
3. The same with 'problem-free' I just don't use that teminology any more and left it in the template for this coin out of laziness more than intending to cheat anyone.
4. Over-salesmanship
People are complaining about your description, check out his, he says a minimum grade of 63 for this POS MS63 Merc
New Rule never sell to or refund a power seller.
UNC-60, GEM and problem free means to me that it will grade and you being the seller
are stating that in fact it will. The seller has the coin in hand and if it's a cleaned coin
it needs to be stated such.
Sell it as a cleaned GEM next time.
bob
To address your original question, there is an Ebay seller who uses the TPG's to his advantage, and guarantees the coins he sells will holder at the grade he states in the auction. To collect the refund (which is limited to the price of the coin, no submission fees or postage), you must return the coin in the TPG holder. The seller gets the coin back in a NGC/PCGS holder, and refunds only the sale price. The buyer loses only the grading fees and postage. I think that's pretty smart.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
It is the buyer's fault and he assumes risks when he buys the coin
the above is an excellent e-bay business plan.
re: your issue,
1) your ad was slightly deceptive
2) the guy sounds like a complete douchebag.
it may be easier if you just refund the sale price, block him, and get on with your life. he sounds like one of those people with just enough time on their hands to find methods of giving you grief.