Gary, why did you wait for so long to tell the truth about the source of the football boxes (that [at least] 4, not 2, two did not come from Steve). Why wait to tell the truth about the 86 fleer box off eBay? Why lie about going on a 5 hour drive to buy the boxes? Why buy so many wrappers that match recent rip years/dates so well? Why get agitated when Steve offers to ship direct and then edit that post? Why not just tell the truth as we've repeatedly asked for here. We have no reason to trust someone who has repeatedly mislead and lied to us here. You may have some good qualities, but being straightforward and honest is definitely not one of them. Please come clean with everything and don't make us pull the truth out of you only after you are confronted with facts you can not plausibly deny.
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc). -t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier. >>
What rip were you a part of?
AJWs first baseball rip or 80Junkie's baseball rip?
If your packs were *that* bad --- why is it only coming to light now. Not saying you're wrong --- but nobody else has ever claimed this, yet Montana, Rice, Elway, Paytons etc have all been pulled.
Regards, Tom
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans. >>
Storm888 ---
Guilty for what?
Defrauding ebay buyers buy piecing together packs? "Stretching the truth" on the 86 Fleer Box to look cool?
.. b/c that's all he's been really shown to be "guilty of" ...
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
TomTim did raise some VERY good questions about orgin of a few boxes, but other than that there's really no guilt from a CU Forum / Pack Rip perspective.
NOTE: This does NOT mean I condone his ebay activity -- but that shouldn't require what you're asking for above.
-t >>
Tom
I totally respect your work here to maintain fairness.
But what kind of evidence? This is a forum - the evidence will be the printed word.
Did you miss this? Gemint posted his findings - I like and respect him - he has tremendous knowledge and trust him like a brother:
<< <i>I'll just stick to facts. I participated in last October's 80s baseball rip.
1) Several of the packs had double folds at the corners. Some had the wrapper fused to the back card. A few of the packs were about the most pathetic attempts at resealing that I've come across in my years of buying unopened material. There's no question in my mind some were tampered with. 2) Not all packs showed signs of tampering. Most of the key packs did though. 3) The best cards I got from the run were an O/C '80 Molitor and an '85 Fleer Tony Perez. It is possible to open a run of packs and get nothing but it seems a lot of people (particularly in the 80s rip) had similar results to mine. 4) I've bought a handful of vintage (1960s) wax packs from BBCE and have been happy with the quality. I've also looked at several of his packs at shows and all look clean with no signs of resealing. I have no qualms about buying more unopened material from BBCE in the future. 5) At the time of the 80s rip, I questioned if anyone had received anything good and asked if the packs looked legit. I did this privately because I did not want to make it sound like I was publicly questioning BBCE's quality (which I'm not). Now I'm wishing I had posted the concerns on the forum. 6) I have not participated in a group rip since. I didn't participate for financial gain but I do like to get clean packs. >>
He would NOT have stated this unless he was very, very certain.
It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box.
<< <i> The fact that nothing was said cries of deception to me. And if you are out-and-out trying to deceive us in other areas (such as the 86 Fleer Box) why would anyone believe what you say about resealing? Especially when there is overwhelming evidence supporting it?
Jason >>
This is EXACTLY why that 86 Fleer Box means EVERYTHING when it applies to any of these rips. It is painfully obvious that the EMPTY 86 Box he bought off e-bay is the SAME box supposedly obtained from a "nice old man" via a "old friend" and a "5 hour drive". It is CREDIBILITY and that most certainly DOES apply to his rips.
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong.
This is EXACTLY why that 86 Fleer Box means EVERYTHING when it applies to any of these rips. It is painfully obvious that the EMPTY 86 Box he bought off e-bay is the SAME box supposedly obtained from a "nice old man" via a "old friend" and a "5 hour drive". It is CREDIBILITY and that most certainly DOES apply to his rips. >>
Guys, he DID answer this. Flatly said he lied about the box. Go back a few pages in this and read it. i asked him point blank and he answered it.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong. >>
As stated both last night and tonight --- this is my belief as well.
However, Gary flatly denies this accusation when I he responded to my questions a few pages back.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
a method to provide some evidence of guilt or no guilt is to do this statistically. Basically, you've got to figure whether the distribution of cards everyone received from Gary is statistically significant from the distribution one would expect IF Gary did not tamper with packs. So, your null distribution provides the probabilities of receiving certain cards based on the original collation and distribution of the cards. You can do this for, say, all cards individually (so, you'll have a 500x500 contigency table). But, given sparse cells, you may want to clump them up into categories (say into commons, stars, semi stars and outliers (outliers being defined as short prints or double prints, etc). So, you'll end up with a 4x4 table (or, generally speaking, IxI). Each cell contains the observed counts taken from the actual rips. The expected counts will be based on the probability distribution derived from the collation procedures (someone must know prior probabilities for card collation into packs). If the observed deviates significantly from the expected, than you can reject the null and say, with 95% confidence, that the cards ripped from the packs do not follow the expected distribution. Then, you'll have some statistical evidence backing you when you make the claim that Gary resealed the packs.
Of course, this means getting everyone who participated in the rips to list all the cards they received. also, im assuming someone knows how these cards were distributed (and when i say how, i mean know the exact probabilities of pulling each card from a pack).
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc). -t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier. >>
What rip were you a part of?
AJWs first baseball rip or 80Junkie's baseball rip?
If your packs were *that* bad --- why is it only coming to light now. Not saying you're wrong --- but nobody else has ever claimed this, yet Montana, Rice, Elway, Paytons etc have all been pulled.
Regards, Tom >>
It was the second 80s rip back in October, 2006. As previously mentioned, I didn't make it public at the time because I didn't want to risk tainting BBCE's image. The $400 1960's wax I've bought from them was perfectly clean. I found it hard to believe that they would sell clean vintage wax and then sell resealed 1985 Topps packs.
I sent PMs (which I still have and they are dated early November, 2006).
<< <i>a method to provide some evidence of guilt or no guilt is to do this statistically. Basically, you've got to figure whether the distribution of cards everyone received from Gary is statistically significant from the distribution one would expect IF Gary did not tamper with packs. So, your null distribution provides the probabilities of receiving certain cards based on the original collation and distribution of the cards. You can do this for, say, all cards individually (so, you'll have a 500x500 contigency table). But, given sparse cells, you may want to clump them up into categories (say into commons, stars, semi stars and outliers (outliers being defined as short prints or double prints, etc). So, you'll end up with a 4x4 table (or, generally speaking, IxI). Each cell contains the observed counts taken from the actual rips. The expected counts will be based on the probability distribution derived from the collation procedures (someone must know prior probabilities for card collation into packs). If the observed deviates significantly from the expected, than you can reject the null and say, with 95% confidence, that the cards ripped from the packs do not follow the expected distribution. Then, you'll have some statistical evidence backing you when you make the claim that Gary resealed the packs.
Of course, this means getting everyone who participated in the rips to list all the cards they received. also, im assuming someone knows how these cards were distributed (and when i say how, i mean know the exact probabilities of pulling each card from a pack). >>
I still have all the cards grouped together from my purchase in the 2nd 80s baseball rip. So I could provide the total collation for my lot. If enough people have done the same, we could get a pretty good idea of what each box produced. My recollection is not much. Very few major cards were posted in the pack break results.
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong. >>
As stated both last night and tonight --- this is my belief as well.
However, Gary flatly denies this accusation when I he responded to my questions a few pages back.
-t >>
And I suppose this is where this thing will go no further. While he may not have personally tampered with the packs, he may have purchased them from a source that is less trustworthy than BBCEX.
If somebody can tell me how they post the messages/PMs in the body of a post, I'll post my private messages from last November. I want to post it so the date tag and user information shows.
<< <i>I still have all the cards grouped together from my purchase in the 2nd 80s baseball rip. So I could provide the total collation for my lot. If enough people have done the same, we could get a pretty good idea of what each box produced. My recollection is not much. Very few major cards were posted in the pack break results. >>
Taking away statistical tests, even just pooling information and actually looking at the distribution of what everyone got is better than recalling from memory whether someone got a top card or not. It might be the case that some members didnt post the cards they got. It might be the case that those who did post their items were only the ones who didnt get anything at all. In other words, there may be a biasing effects involve in these recollections because of memory issues and non response. Instead of trying to recall whether or not people got star cards in their packs, lets actually pool it together and see whether or not this is true.
Of course, this involves getting the 10-20 odd people who participated in these rips (and since there were 4 rips, 40-80 odd people) to go back to their cards and list them. and, im not sure if everyone involved is willing to put that much time and energy into such a venture.
I have been reading all the threads relating relating to the rips by 80s. I have pretty much stayed quiet until now and will only make this one post.
I was in the 77 - 85 baseball rip in January. I was really exciting after reading about the prior rips and the comradarie among the board members. Being a new board member, I wanted to join in the reindeer games. As mentioned, since so many long-time and respected members were jumping in the rips, why not join in. I was greatly disappointed in the cards I pulled (except the 84 Jack Fimple RC). The best card I got was a well centered 79 Johnny Bench. Any other stars were league leaders or team cards. No individual cardstar cards. I just chalked it up to my bad luck and just an unlucky draw of the packs.
It was at this time the 76 - 85 football rip was being organized. I was gonna jump in on this also, but after opening half the above baseball rip, I could not dole out $155 for commons that I have a ton of already.
My thoughts on this whole rip arranged by 80s. I cannot say for certainty that packs were altered or switched out with lesser quality packs. The only person who can answer that is Gary. My Christian faith hopes that he did not, but my mind tells me differently.
Gary, I will keep you in my prayers as you will need them either way in this ordeal. If you are innocent, that you will be vindicated and stronger for this ordeal. But if you were in anyway guilty of misleading us in the rips that you find it in your heart to make amends and seek help.
I wish the best to all effected and hope that we can put this behind us soon and be much wiser.
Alfonz24
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
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80sJunkie Date Posted: Nov/12/2006 3:34 PM Hell John I would love to participate in the article. email me a draft at fmemech@sbcglobal.net. So are you writing the article for smr?
Back to the pack subject what packs had double folds I havent opened all mine I'd like to take a close look at mine and see what i can find. Have fun on your buisness trip and hope we wil talk soon. Regads Gary
Reply Delete Top Bottom
gemint Date Posted: Nov/12/2006 9:26 AM Hi Gary,
No worries. It's all for fun. I haven't opened mid-80s Donruss or Fleer since they first came out but I do remember some years having tight seals. I guess the biggest red flag remains the unnatural fold lines. Those always should show no secondary folds around the corners.
By the way, I'm in the process of writing an article on the '75 mini wax case break. I wrote to Jordan about it and he will participate in the article. If you're interested, I'll also forward the draft to you for a few quotes about your trip there. I've been kinda busy and I'm heading to Europe later today for a week long business trip. But I hope to finish it by the end of the month. I'd like to include some of the photos of the case break in the article as well. Let me know if you'd like to add some comments to the article. Joe already responded agreeing to include the article in a future SMR.
Regards, John
Reply Delete Top Bottom
80sJunkie Date Posted: Nov/10/2006 11:23 AM Hello John I really didn't look that close. All of the boxes came from steve hart except for the 81 fleer box. People have been pulling the major stars so far so i really did not give it a second thought. As for the two bill almonds in the fleer pack i've had plenty of those from 80s fleer. do to there collation system i think it was something in there machines that kicked 2 of the same once in awhile. and donruss i havn't heard of that problem with the 83's but again that was a common donruss problem of the mid to late 80's. Open much 87? donruss that was the worst year for it alot of 87 donruss is actually yellowed on the back at first site you would assume they were resealed but they were not . Had something to do with using to much heat that the wax fused together. This is all knowledge i have learned over the years from steve mark murphy and simply buying lots of factory sealed cases. I Hope this info helps you in the future.
The info like above most people dont know. Manufacturers are not perfect and each company had there problems from time to time that one needs to know when inspecting for tampered packs. A wide spread factory problem could easily be mistaken for tampering when it was infact a factory problem. People like steve hart and mark murphy are experts on this topic. I've just learned everything i can by picking their brains when possible. So I wouldn't worry I wouldn't have put this together if i didn't trust steve hart 100%
Regards Gary
Reply Delete Top Bottom
gemint Date Posted: Nov/09/2006 11:29 PM Hi Gary,
Has anybody gotten anything good? Did all the packs come from BBCE (except the '81 Fleer)? I noticed a lot of the packs from popular issues (like the '85 Topps and mid-80s Fleer and Donruss) had unnatural looking fold lines. I usually reject those packs because it's a strong sign they've been resealed. I'm not too concerned about these packs because they were cheap and I didn't buy them with the thought of turning a profit. I was wondering though if your packs look ok. I didn't want to post it on the forum because I don't want to give a black eye to Steve Hart. I doubt he checks these packs very closely if at all since they aren't expensive.
I opened the '85s and '84s since I'll be traveling next week. I noticed most except the Topps pack didn't look right. As expected, I mostly got all commons. The exceptions were mid-level stars like Joe Morgan and Tony Perez. My '84 Fleer pack had two Bill Almonds consecutively. The '83 Donruss pack looked ok at the folds but the wrapper was fused together at the seal and the paper ripped when I opened it. Again, all commons.
Let me know how your packs look. Like I said, I'm not looking make an issue of it but just want to verify my pack authenticating skills.
John
Reply Delete Top Bottom
80sJunkie Date Posted: Sep/26/2006 5:27 PM 80's BASEBALL RIP PAYMENTS NOW BEING ACCEPTED.
Please paypal $76.50 (74 plus 2.50 paypal fees) to iplaychoochoo2@sbcglobal.net
pm me if you want to send money order for 74
VERY IMPORTANT !! Make sure you include your CU screen name and mailing address with the Paypal payment.
I will be shipping by usps priority mail
As soon as I have most of the payments I'll place the order for the boxes
I Will hopefully pick up boxes from steves wherehouse on oct 4th.
I'll update the first post in the thread with payments each night.
I think you mean screen shots?? Somewhere above your number pad there should be a key that says print screen or copy screen. Then you right click your mouse and paste it like normal. That should work.
Trying to complete: 2000 Bowman Chrome 2002 Topps Heritage NAP 2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics 2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics 2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
Wow, that is a powerful PM thread you've got there.
I stand corrected and now maintain that there was likely tampering in packs rec'd from Gary.
Whether: A. They were faulty from Steve B. Gary resealed them himself C. Gary "swapped" merch and the merch he gave us was bad with or without him knowing
.. that is the question.
Obviously, "A" has virtually no chance of being what happened.
I maintain it is likely "C" --- to what degree I am uncertain.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
he was setting up for a heist IMHO! He was buying stuff for the FUTURE and not the past IMHO!
He was going to hit the 84 football box this way
put one BAD PACK or TWO BAD PACKS PER BOX then have one GOOD OR TWO FULL BOXES FOR HIMSELF!
my opinion only!
** Working on the following sets-2013 Spectra Football Hall of Fame 50th Anniversary Autograph set, 2015 Spectra Football Illustrious Legends Autograph set, 2014-15 Hall of Fame Heroes autograph set. **
<< <i>regardless of what he has done or not done, it is in extremely poor form for anyone to post Private Messages. >>
I wouldn't have posted it if it had private information or incriminating evidence. All the messages show is that I did highlight the concern when the pack rip occurred. Nowhere in those messages did I accuse him of wrongdoing.
Also, I'm not accusing him of any wrongdoing on this public forum. All I am saying is that some of the packs were tampered with. It's probably impossible to prove who did the tampering.
"regardless of what he has done or not done, it is in extremely poor form for anyone to post Private Messages."
///////////////////////////////////////////
gemmint was being blasted for not speaking up at the time of the break. The PMs were meant to show that he had made a perfunctory effort to privately deal with the issue, early on.
The PMs were not posted to demonstrate conduct by any other party.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Now that he has admitted that the 86-87 Fleer "box" wasn't really a "box" but rather random "packs" that he put into an empty box, I can now post this:
Just a thought, confidentiality really wouldn't apply in this matter, don't enough people on this board do enough business with Mr. Hart dollar and volume wise to make a phone call and find out EXACTLY what was purchased from him for the 70/80's football rip. That would clear up instantly what boxes came from BBCE and which ones didn't. If i had a client that was using my name as a source for product and the validity of that was in question, you'd be dang sure i'd let anyone know who wanted to know what came from my business and what didn't.
As an aside, i've still got my football cards from the rip still in the pack, in the exact order i opened them in. I didn't get anything at all. It was also weird that my packs had a common theme (has to be purely coincidence, i would think?), the same group of 4-6 players in most all of the early packs, and then again in the 80's group.
<< <i>The more I read the more I think he is an evil genius. >>
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
GFB CALL HIM UP IVE SAID THIS BEFORE THE 76 79808182838586 BOXE CAME FROM STEVE WHEN I PLACED THE ORDER HE WAS OUT OF 78 AND 85S HE ONLY HAD LOOSE PACKS. WHEN HE WAS OUT OF THE OTHERS I FOUND OTHER MEANS TO SECURE THE REST OF THE BOXES FOR THE RIP.
I have no iron in this fire so I'll refrain from making any statements, but wouldn't a picture of a receipt/packing slip serve to shore this up, at least a little bit? Certainly the boxes/packs could still have been searched, switched etc but at least you'd know for sure an order was placed for said items on the given day.
i just got back from the reading show and i was talking with steve hart (bbce). he asked me to post here that for any future rips, he will be glad ship to all involved himself. so if you guys decide to do a rip in the future, that aspect is solved. regards pat
It great that everyone is outing me yet there still sending me threatning emails and now someone tried to send me an email virus. Yeah and you call me a piece of work
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
-t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier. >>
What rip were you a part of?
AJWs first baseball rip or 80Junkie's baseball rip?
If your packs were *that* bad --- why is it only coming to light now. Not saying you're wrong --- but nobody else has ever claimed this, yet Montana, Rice, Elway, Paytons etc have all been pulled.
Regards,
Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Guilty for what?
///////////////////////////////////////////////
Not my call. Gary knows the whole truth, and when/if
he is ready he will spill it, or not.
On TV-court shows, circumstantial evidence is usually
scoffed at. In real life, not so much.
The integrity of some of the breaks is suspect. Only
remedial action by the person who made it that way
can fix the damage.
<< <i>
<< <i>
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably
consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody
would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans. >>
Storm888 ---
Guilty for what?
Defrauding ebay buyers buy piecing together packs?
"Stretching the truth" on the 86 Fleer Box to look cool?
.. b/c that's all he's been really shown to be "guilty of" ...
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
TomTim did raise some VERY good questions about orgin of a few boxes, but other than that there's really no guilt from a CU Forum / Pack Rip perspective.
NOTE: This does NOT mean I condone his ebay activity -- but that shouldn't require what you're asking for above.
-t >>
Tom
I totally respect your work here to maintain fairness.
But what kind of evidence? This is a forum - the evidence will be the printed word.
Did you miss this? Gemint posted his findings - I like and respect him - he has tremendous knowledge and trust him like a brother:
<< <i>I'll just stick to facts. I participated in last October's 80s baseball rip.
1) Several of the packs had double folds at the corners. Some had the wrapper fused to the back card. A few of the packs were about the most pathetic attempts at resealing that I've come across in my years of buying unopened material. There's no question in my mind some were tampered with.
2) Not all packs showed signs of tampering. Most of the key packs did though.
3) The best cards I got from the run were an O/C '80 Molitor and an '85 Fleer Tony Perez. It is possible to open a run of packs and get nothing but it seems a lot of people (particularly in the 80s rip) had similar results to mine.
4) I've bought a handful of vintage (1960s) wax packs from BBCE and have been happy with the quality. I've also looked at several of his packs at shows and all look clean with no signs of resealing. I have no qualms about buying more unopened material from BBCE in the future.
5) At the time of the 80s rip, I questioned if anyone had received anything good and asked if the packs looked legit. I did this privately because I did not want to make it sound like I was publicly questioning BBCE's quality (which I'm not). Now I'm wishing I had posted the concerns on the forum.
6) I have not participated in a group rip since. I didn't participate for financial gain but I do like to get clean packs. >>
He would NOT have stated this unless he was very, very certain.
mike
<< <i>
The fact that nothing was said cries of deception to me. And if you are out-and-out trying to deceive us in other areas (such as the 86 Fleer Box) why would anyone believe what you say about resealing? Especially when there is overwhelming evidence supporting it?
Jason >>
This is EXACTLY why that 86 Fleer Box means EVERYTHING when it applies to any of these rips. It is painfully obvious that the EMPTY 86 Box he bought off e-bay is the SAME box supposedly obtained from a "nice old man" via a "old friend" and a "5 hour drive". It is CREDIBILITY and that most certainly DOES apply to his rips.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong.
<< <i>
This is EXACTLY why that 86 Fleer Box means EVERYTHING when it applies to any of these rips. It is painfully obvious that the EMPTY 86 Box he bought off e-bay is the SAME box supposedly obtained from a "nice old man" via a "old friend" and a "5 hour drive". It is CREDIBILITY and that most certainly DOES apply to his rips. >>
Guys, he DID answer this. Flatly said he lied about the box. Go back a few pages in this and read it. i asked him point blank and he answered it.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong. >>
As stated both last night and tonight --- this is my belief as well.
However, Gary flatly denies this accusation when I he responded to my questions a few pages back.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Of course, this means getting everyone who participated in the rips to list all the cards they received. also, im assuming someone knows how these cards were distributed (and when i say how, i mean know the exact probabilities of pulling each card from a pack).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
-t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier. >>
What rip were you a part of?
AJWs first baseball rip or 80Junkie's baseball rip?
If your packs were *that* bad --- why is it only coming to light now. Not saying you're wrong --- but nobody else has ever claimed this, yet Montana, Rice, Elway, Paytons etc have all been pulled.
Regards,
Tom >>
It was the second 80s rip back in October, 2006. As previously mentioned, I didn't make it public at the time because I didn't want to risk tainting BBCE's image. The $400 1960's wax I've bought from them was perfectly clean. I found it hard to believe that they would sell clean vintage wax and then sell resealed 1985 Topps packs.
I sent PMs (which I still have and they are dated early November, 2006).
<< <i>a method to provide some evidence of guilt or no guilt is to do this statistically. Basically, you've got to figure whether the distribution of cards everyone received from Gary is statistically significant from the distribution one would expect IF Gary did not tamper with packs. So, your null distribution provides the probabilities of receiving certain cards based on the original collation and distribution of the cards. You can do this for, say, all cards individually (so, you'll have a 500x500 contigency table). But, given sparse cells, you may want to clump them up into categories (say into commons, stars, semi stars and outliers (outliers being defined as short prints or double prints, etc). So, you'll end up with a 4x4 table (or, generally speaking, IxI). Each cell contains the observed counts taken from the actual rips. The expected counts will be based on the probability distribution derived from the collation procedures (someone must know prior probabilities for card collation into packs). If the observed deviates significantly from the expected, than you can reject the null and say, with 95% confidence, that the cards ripped from the packs do not follow the expected distribution. Then, you'll have some statistical evidence backing you when you make the claim that Gary resealed the packs.
Of course, this means getting everyone who participated in the rips to list all the cards they received. also, im assuming someone knows how these cards were distributed (and when i say how, i mean know the exact probabilities of pulling each card from a pack). >>
I still have all the cards grouped together from my purchase in the 2nd 80s baseball rip. So I could provide the total collation for my lot. If enough people have done the same, we could get a pretty good idea of what each box produced. My recollection is not much. Very few major cards were posted in the pack break results.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to be turning into a "Did you tamper with the packs" I am guessing he did not tamper with the packs. I think he totally switched them with ones from his personal collection not giving us a true unopened box. >>
My thoughts exactly. We thought we were buying them from BBCEX but in reality we were buying them from Beer Bong. >>
As stated both last night and tonight --- this is my belief as well.
However, Gary flatly denies this accusation when I he responded to my questions a few pages back.
-t >>
And I suppose this is where this thing will go no further. While he may not have personally tampered with the packs, he may have purchased them from a source that is less trustworthy than BBCEX.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I still have all the cards grouped together from my purchase in the 2nd 80s baseball rip. So I could provide the total collation for my lot. If enough people have done the same, we could get a pretty good idea of what each box produced. My recollection is not much. Very few major cards were posted in the pack break results. >>
Taking away statistical tests, even just pooling information and actually looking at the distribution of what everyone got is better than recalling from memory whether someone got a top card or not. It might be the case that some members didnt post the cards they got. It might be the case that those who did post their items were only the ones who didnt get anything at all. In other words, there may be a biasing effects involve in these recollections because of memory issues and non response. Instead of trying to recall whether or not people got star cards in their packs, lets actually pool it together and see whether or not this is true.
Of course, this involves getting the 10-20 odd people who participated in these rips (and since there were 4 rips, 40-80 odd people) to go back to their cards and list them. and, im not sure if everyone involved is willing to put that much time and energy into such a venture.
///////////////////////////
Just copy the info and paste it into the message text box.
<< <i>
Guys, he DID answer this. Flatly said he lied about the box. Go back a few pages in this and read it. i asked him point blank and he answered it.
-t >>
blind, there must have been 30 guys who have asked him point blank about that the past 24 hours. So he finally coughed up truth huh? Yipee .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>"If somebody can tell me how they post the messages/PMs in the body of a post,.."
///////////////////////////
Just copy the info and paste it into the message text box. >>
I tried that but it only carried over the text area, not the user information/icon info.
I was in the 77 - 85 baseball rip in January. I was really exciting after reading about the prior rips and the comradarie among the board members. Being a new board member, I wanted to join in the reindeer games. As mentioned, since so many long-time and respected members were jumping in the rips, why not join in. I was greatly disappointed in the cards I pulled (except the 84 Jack Fimple RC). The best card I got was a well centered 79 Johnny Bench. Any other stars were league leaders or team cards. No individual cardstar cards. I just chalked it up to my bad luck and just an unlucky draw of the packs.
It was at this time the 76 - 85 football rip was being organized. I was gonna jump in on this also, but after opening half the above baseball rip, I could not dole out $155 for commons that I have a ton of already.
My thoughts on this whole rip arranged by 80s. I cannot say for certainty that packs were altered or switched out with lesser quality packs. The only person who can answer that is Gary. My Christian faith hopes that he did not, but my mind tells me differently.
Gary, I will keep you in my prayers as you will need them either way in this ordeal. If you are innocent, that you will be vindicated and stronger for this ordeal. But if you were in anyway guilty of misleading us in the rips that you find it in your heart to make amends and seek help.
I wish the best to all effected and hope that we can put this behind us soon and be much wiser.
Alfonz24
that the past 24 hours. So he finally coughed up truth huh? Yipee ..... "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The road to redemption is long for some, shorter for others.
The journey should be encouraged.
///////////////////////////////////
Send me a test message.
I will post it, and reveal the steps.
gemint
Collector Date Posted: Friday March 02, 2007 2:52 PM
Hi,
Appreciate your help. Here's what I tried:
1) Highlighted the messages, including the user info
2) copied
3) Pasted as test in the message posting box
I previewed it and it left out the user info completely.
Thanks.
John
<< <i>test
gemint
Collector Date Posted: Friday March 02, 2007 2:52 PM
Hi,
Appreciate your help. Here's what I tried:
1) Highlighted the messages, including the user info
2) copied
3) Pasted as test in the message posting box
I previewed it and it left out the user info completely.
Thanks.
John >>
This is what happened to me. It didn't print the member info. I've seen others who were able to post with the member info included.
Right-Click and drag over the message to highlight.
Ctrl/C
Then paste into mesage text box on bb.
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[ FORUMS : DELETE ALL : HISTORY ]
80sJunkie
Date Posted: Nov/12/2006 3:34 PM
Hell John
I would love to participate in the article. email me a draft at fmemech@sbcglobal.net. So are you writing the article for smr?
Back to the pack subject what packs had double folds I havent opened all mine I'd like to take a close look at mine and see what i can find.
Have fun on your buisness trip and hope we wil talk soon.
Regads
Gary
Reply Delete Top Bottom
gemint
Date Posted: Nov/12/2006 9:26 AM
Hi Gary,
No worries. It's all for fun. I haven't opened mid-80s Donruss or Fleer since they first came out but I do remember some years having tight seals. I guess the biggest red flag remains the unnatural fold lines. Those always should show no secondary folds around the corners.
By the way, I'm in the process of writing an article on the '75 mini wax case break. I wrote to Jordan about it and he will participate in the article. If you're interested, I'll also forward the draft to you for a few quotes about your trip there. I've been kinda busy and I'm heading to Europe later today for a week long business trip. But I hope to finish it by the end of the month. I'd like to include some of the photos of the case break in the article as well. Let me know if you'd like to add some comments to the article. Joe already responded agreeing to include the article in a future SMR.
Regards,
John
Reply Delete Top Bottom
80sJunkie
Date Posted: Nov/10/2006 11:23 AM
Hello John
I really didn't look that close. All of the boxes came from steve hart except for the 81 fleer box. People have been pulling the major stars so far so i really did not give it a second thought. As for the two bill almonds in the fleer pack i've had plenty of those from 80s fleer. do to there collation system i think it was something in there machines that kicked 2 of the same once in awhile. and donruss i havn't heard of that problem with the 83's but again that was a common donruss problem of the mid to late 80's. Open much 87? donruss that was the worst year for it alot of 87 donruss is actually yellowed on the back at first site you would assume they were resealed but they were not . Had something to do with using to much heat that the wax fused together. This is all knowledge i have learned over the years from steve mark murphy and simply buying lots of factory sealed cases. I Hope this info helps you in the future.
The info like above most people dont know.
Manufacturers are not perfect and each company had there problems from time to time that one needs to know when inspecting for tampered packs. A wide spread factory problem could easily be mistaken for tampering when it was infact a factory problem. People like steve hart and mark murphy are experts on this topic. I've just learned everything i can by picking their brains when possible.
So I wouldn't worry I wouldn't have put this together if i didn't trust steve hart 100%
Regards
Gary
Reply Delete Top Bottom
gemint
Date Posted: Nov/09/2006 11:29 PM
Hi Gary,
Has anybody gotten anything good? Did all the packs come from BBCE (except the '81 Fleer)? I noticed a lot of the packs from popular issues (like the '85 Topps and mid-80s Fleer and Donruss) had unnatural looking fold lines. I usually reject those packs because it's a strong sign they've been resealed. I'm not too concerned about these packs because they were cheap and I didn't buy them with the thought of turning a profit. I was wondering though if your packs look ok. I didn't want to post it on the forum because I don't want to give a black eye to Steve Hart. I doubt he checks these packs very closely if at all since they aren't expensive.
I opened the '85s and '84s since I'll be traveling next week. I noticed most except the Topps pack didn't look right. As expected, I mostly got all commons. The exceptions were mid-level stars like Joe Morgan and Tony Perez. My '84 Fleer pack had two Bill Almonds consecutively. The '83 Donruss pack looked ok at the folds but the wrapper was fused together at the seal and the paper ripped when I opened it. Again, all commons.
Let me know how your packs look. Like I said, I'm not looking make an issue of it but just want to verify my pack authenticating skills.
John
Reply Delete Top Bottom
80sJunkie
Date Posted: Sep/26/2006 5:27 PM
80's BASEBALL RIP PAYMENTS NOW BEING ACCEPTED.
Please paypal $76.50 (74 plus 2.50 paypal fees) to iplaychoochoo2@sbcglobal.net
pm me if you want to send money order for 74
VERY IMPORTANT !! Make sure you include your CU screen name and mailing address with the Paypal payment.
I will be shipping by usps priority mail
As soon as I have most of the payments I'll place the order for the boxes
I Will hopefully pick up boxes from steves wherehouse on oct 4th.
I'll update the first post in the thread with payments each night.
Please PM me if there are any questions.
Regards Gary D.
The above is all you can get by copying.
2000 Bowman Chrome
2002 Topps Heritage NAP
2003 Topps Heritage chrome and seat relics
2006 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2007 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2008 Topps Heritage refractors and relics
2006 Topps Heritage and Topps Chrome football
that box isnt very fresh, its tattered and torn and looks like it's been sitting in someones basement
Wow, that is a powerful PM thread you've got there.
I stand corrected and now maintain that there was likely tampering in packs rec'd from Gary.
Whether:
A. They were faulty from Steve
B. Gary resealed them himself
C. Gary "swapped" merch and the merch he gave us was bad with or without him knowing
.. that is the question.
Obviously, "A" has virtually no chance of being what happened.
I maintain it is likely "C" --- to what degree I am uncertain.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Poll?????
61 Topps (100%) 7.96
62 Parkhurst (100%) 8.70
63 Topps (100%) 7.96
63 York WB's (50%) 8.52
68 Topps (39%) 8.54
69 Topps (3%) 9.00
69 OPC (83%) 8.21
71 Topps (100%) 9.21 #1 A.T.F.
72 Topps (100%) 9.39
73 Topps (13%) 9.35
74 OPC WHA (95%) 8.57
75 Topps (50%) 9.23
77 OPC WHA (86%) 8.62 #1 A.T.F.
88 Topps (5%) 10.00
He was going to hit the 84 football box this way
put one BAD PACK or TWO BAD PACKS PER BOX then have one GOOD OR TWO FULL BOXES FOR HIMSELF!
my opinion only!
let's see what the jury decides.
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS THINK IM GUILTY SO WHY EVEN HAVE A POLL. I FEEL LIKE OJ >>
Gary,
We've asked for answers. You've provided very little in the way of defense.
... and, don't forget ---- OJ IS GUILTY ... regardless of the defense trial. It's common knowledge
Where did you get the 84 Football box for the football bust?
Was it the one you bought off of ebay on Jan 30?
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS THINK IM GUILTY >>
Totally disagree.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>regardless of what he has done or not done, it is in extremely poor form for anyone to post Private Messages. >>
I wouldn't have posted it if it had private information or incriminating evidence. All the messages show is that I did highlight the concern when the pack rip occurred. Nowhere in those messages did I accuse him of wrongdoing.
poor form for anyone to post Private Messages."
///////////////////////////////////////////
gemmint was being blasted for not speaking up at the time
of the break. The PMs were meant to show that he had
made a perfunctory effort to privately deal with the issue,
early on.
The PMs were not posted to demonstrate conduct by any
other party.
I thought this purchase of a 1986 Fleer Grossville High box a bit odd, , until I remembered that 1986-87 Fleer packs had stickers AND gum in them. What better way to get authentic 21 year old Fleer Gum than by buying a junk non-sports box.
As an aside, i've still got my football cards from the rip still in the pack, in the exact order i opened them in. I didn't get anything at all. It was also weird that my packs had a common theme (has to be purely coincidence, i would think?), the same group of 4-6 players in most all of the early packs, and then again in the 80's group.
<< <i>The more I read the more I think he is an evil genius. >>
Might do some good anyway...just a thought.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
regards
pat