<< <i>someone looking in: I usually would not post in post like this because I have not ripped, but I was thinking about it to the guy who said'm sure glad I never participated. I hope the guilty party is prosecuted to the fulled extend of the law!) I dont know if gary did it or not but what happend to inncent untill proven guilty. Should it not be proven without a doubt that he is guilty before you tar and feather stick him in jail and throw away the key. Just my opinion Thanks Dave >>
If you were innocent, wouldn't you answer direct questions instead of giving the runaround and telling hunderds of people to pm you, because it would be easier.
I've been ripped publicly and privately in my life so I have some understanding on the subject. When attacked, it is natural instinct to back away into a corner. However, you have to defend yourself and provide the facts when asked for the facts, especially when doing business with others. Beating around the bush and longing for the day that the accusers get theirs is not the way to go about this. If I was being wrongfully accused I would be doing everything in my power to clear my name and not spending time deleting old posts.
<< <i>I've been ripped publicly and privately in my life so I have some understanding on the subject. When attacked, it is natural instinct to back away into a corner. However, you have to defend yourself and provide the facts when asked for the facts, especially when doing business with others. Beating around the bush and longing for the day that the accusers get theirs is not the way to go about this. If I was being wrongfully accused I would be doing everything in my power to clear my name and not spending time deleting old posts. >>
This is where we have to be careful guys....
He was NOT running around deleting old posts. To my understanding he removed the 84 football post --- nothing more.
Things don't look good for him, but us embellishing the "facts" just water everything else down.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>One does not need a good memory if one is honest. If you lie, you have to remember your lies. >>
I always say: If you tell the truth, you never have to worry about remembering what you said.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
This is like your stock broker and golf buddy giving you a hot tip on some investment property and then a book called "How to buy toxic waste dumps and resell for big profits" falls out of his golf bag. Maybe he isn't proven guilty of anything, but it sure makes you reach for your back pocket to make sure your wallet is still there.
... and, I'll need to go back and look this up, but a Ripken RC was pulled from a rip --- can't remember if it was Gary's.
I'm not saying the rips were pure gold in terms of what was pulled --- but if you look at the actual results they do appear to resemble a normal box bust --- especially given the fact that several people did not rip or post (and several made it clear they were sending into grading).
If you figure that anywhere from 50-70% of each box was ripped, I'd argue that enough decent cards came out to potentially show the box as clean.
...and, I am NOT a Gary apologist --- but I just don't see any hard evidence to convict him of resealing or tampering with anyone's packs.
He is obviously lying about the 86 Fleer box --- but I think that has more to do with him wanting to paint a picture of begin a "high roller" and "big spender." I also think he may have switched out some BBCE boxes for some from other sources (which is a chitty thing to do, no doubt) --- but I do not believe he tampered/resealed packs in our rip. The evidence just doesn't support it.
-Tom >>
I pulled a 86 Young, 81 Winslow, 89 Woodson, 89 Mandrich (oh that really doesnt count does it).
Forgot to mention a 82 Lott.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Go through the 1978 Topps thread, and notice all of the posts on it. Once Steve took over the shipping on the thread, Gary went through, removed all of his protests and replaced them with .
<< <i>I've been ripped publicly and privately in my life so I have some understanding on the subject. When attacked, it is natural instinct to back away into a corner. However, you have to defend yourself and provide the facts when asked for the facts, especially when doing business with others. Beating around the bush and longing for the day that the accusers get theirs is not the way to go about this. If I was being wrongfully accused I would be doing everything in my power to clear my name and not spending time deleting old posts. >>
This is where we have to be careful guys....
He was NOT running around deleting old posts. To my understanding he removed the 84 football post --- nothing more.
Things don't look good for him, but us embellishing the "facts" just water everything else down.
I'll just stick to facts. I participated in last October's 80s baseball rip.
1) Several of the packs had double folds at the corners. Some had the wrapper fused to the back card. A few of the packs were about the most pathetic attempts at resealing that I've come across in my years of buying unopened material. There's no question in my mind some were tampered with. 2) Not all packs showed signs of tampering. Most of the key packs did though. 3) The best cards I got from the run were an O/C '80 Molitor and an '85 Fleer Tony Perez. It is possible to open a run of packs and get nothing but it seems a lot of people (particularly in the 80s rip) had similar results to mine. 4) I've bought a handful of vintage (1960s) wax packs from BBCE and have been happy with the quality. I've also looked at several of his packs at shows and all look clean with no signs of resealing. I have no qualms about buying more unopened material from BBCE in the future. 5) At the time of the 80s rip, I questioned if anyone had received anything good and asked if the packs looked legit. I did this privately because I did not want to make it sound like I was publicly questioning BBCE's quality (which I'm not). Now I'm wishing I had posted the concerns on the forum. 6) I have not participated in a group rip since. I didn't participate for financial gain but I do like to get clean packs.
however, it'd take me a few days. There's an initial shock of getting hit by a 40-ton brick. Gary is in that phase right now I imagine. His entire "hobby world" has come unglued. There are so many attackers and witchhunters where do you even start?
He started last night with a general response. Let's see what he does over the next few days. That will show me, at least, how important his reputation is around here and if we really matter like he says we do.>>
Exactly my hobby worls has come ungled to the point i dont know if i want it to recover. Im sitting by listening and ive made post in the basketball and football thread to me those are who i need to defend my honor and integrety too not the witch hunters. Of course now everyone is trying to desperatly find something wrong with the rips which makes me sick but i understand and will stand by my stance posted at the top of this thread.
I wont name a name but i offered refunds on the basketball rip this is already sticking my neck out since i did nothing wrong. The person wants a refund before i get the cards back. I may be accused but not born yesterday why now should i trust said operson to send cards back once they get a refund. Because they are trust worthy while untill this witch hunt i was trust worthy and still am.
What i want to know is alll this witch hunting I will wait to see how many involved appologize when the truth comes out
Gary I was also considering requesting a refund on the basketball rip before sending cards back. I have not made a final decision yet. But you are more than welcome to check my ebay buying/selling habits before issuing an outright refusal. Unfortunately some of the evidence presented on these boards gives an appearance of some improper actions taken by you.
As a coach I extol my athletes to not even put themselves into that type of position. Once that trust is lost it is probably one of the most difficult things to get back.
What i want to know is alll this witch hunting I will wait to see how many involved appologize when the truth comes out >>
Gary --- I've probably "defended" you more than anyone else on this board --- or at least have maintained that you *may* be innocent.
No more diversions like above. You owe us the TRUTH. You owe us the reason you lied about the 86F bkball box. You owe us the reason why all of the wrappers/lots you were buying on ebay coincided with product we were ripping and why non of your "resealing kits" haven't ever been sold on ebay.
You owe us truth, bro.
We are willing to forgive (I am at least) --- but I need some truth. Plain. Simple. Truth.
-Tom
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
I think he has explained this reason of why buying wrappers, empty boxes and lots of NM/MT lots of similar product....this "business idea" that he says will make him money which, it itself is questionable. I dont think you are going to see any further explaination on that.
But there sure is an avoidance of the whole empty box story.
I dont think anyone here will get what they are looking for. Use all of the circumstances that have been addressed be your guide.
gary, you don't find anything suspicous in what people are trying to say?
buying old wrappers, empty boxes, puzzle pieces and near mint commons. to a lot of people that says making your own packs.
At this point only you and you alone know that you are 100% innocent or guilty. There is no gray area in this matter. If you cheated one buyer with one pack than you are guilty. If you swapped out a BBCE box for someone else's potentially inferior box you are guilty.
The longer you delay your response with an honest and believeable answer the deeper the hole you are digging.
If you are guilty is the money you made from this worth your reputation? Most card sellers on E-Bay depend on repeat business. From that standpoint you have made a bad financial decision of choosing what was easy as opposed to what is right.
This thing has probably gone as far as it's gonna go and I certainly don't want to beat a dead horse, BUT if we're talking about "the truth" I'd like to know a little more about this Cards 4 Kids charity that doesn't seem to exist.
ok blind heres the truth I did by a collection of 86 fleer packs and used the box i bought to put them in and take the picture yes i was doing alittle bragging. I like to share my finds all the wrappers I bought i have accounted for and really was planing on what i said. does putting packs and boxes and cards together say here reseal these. not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. I have an empty box collection also and try to get 36 or 24 wrappers to go with them theres a market for it and it makes money on ebay. You know I cant say anything right now with out more people jumping all over me Im not trying to play victim here as some say but I know I did not reseal anypacks and am waiting for this to calm down were cool heads can talk without all the fighting . Blind thanks for atleast sticking to innocent before provin guilty. and as far as my bar top i wanted that all in 75 topps mini wrappers to remember the 75 case break i never said all the wrappers i recently bought were for my bar top and if i did that was a err on my part.
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here.
<< <i>ok blind heres the truth I did by a collection of 86 fleer packs and used the box i bought to put them in and take the picture yes i was doing alittle bragging. I like to share my finds all the wrappers I bought i have accounted for and really was planing on what i said. does putting packs and boxes and cards together say here reseal these. not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. I have an empty box collection also and try to get 36 or 24 wrappers to go with them theres a market for it and it makes money on ebay. You know I cant say anything right now with out more people jumping all over me Im not trying to play victim here as some say but I know I did not reseal anypacks and am waiting for this to calm down were cool heads can talk without all the fighting . Blind thanks for atleast sticking to innocent before provin guilty. and as far as my bar top i wanted that all in 75 topps mini wrappers to remember the 75 case break i never said all the wrappers i recently bought were for my bar top and if i did that was a err on my part.
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here. >>
Gary,
Excellent. We're getting somewhere. Thanks.
Now:
1. Did you ever claim to send out BBCE boxes and end up switching them out for boxes from other sources?
...and, if so, why?
The screenshot below from TomTim is something I would like for you to specifically address:
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Even if what you say is true -- do you understand how it is deceptive to buyers if you buy packs and then package them up in a separate empty box to make them look good? The unopened market values provenance and respect. Finding random packs and then putting them into an empty box is a whole hell of a lot different than purchasing an unopened box. And that is outright deceptive.
Marc
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
Junkie - I think the 'to-the-point' questions by Blind and several others are very fair, and should be pretty easy to answer. Your responses to date are basically ramblings which isn't helping your cause at all.
If you want to sound convincing you need to answer these clearly and concisely..... is it that hard for you to do?
<< <i>not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. >>
Gary
Come on - saying this now...after the fact - it's kind of insulting to ones intelligence.
You know as well as any collector - that defacing a wrapper ruins it's collectibility - not even addressing the possibility of reseals. In fact, why sell a collectible that's defaced if the only thing they're gonna do with them is save/display/put them on their bar etc.?
ramblings becuase im so sick from all this i cant think staright.
<<1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?>>
1 didnt lie strched the story to look good. 2 no i never switched out any boxes from bbce 3 did i ever tamper or reseal a pack to anyparticipant. Absolutly ands 100 % no way
Note to Gary: Stretching the story to look good = Lying
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
Here's an example of what an honest person would say-
Bob: Hey Joe, where'd you get that 86 Fleer box? Joe: I bought it off ebay.
Here's Gary's answer: An old man down the street called me and had stuff to sell, so I bought it. That's why I couldn't take pictures of the boxes from the vintage football rip because I had to go down the street and buy this collection from an old man.
Let's try another-
Bob: Hey Joe, where'd you get the 84 Topps box? Joe: I got it off ebay.
Gary: Well BBCE was out of them, 80, 77, and 78 so I bought the 77 and 80 from DACardworld and the 78 I had to pay extra for somewhere. (Notice no mention of the 84 box in question).
One more for fun-
Bob: Hey Joe, what are you doing buying all those vintage wrappers, singles, and boxes? Joe: I collect them.
Gary: Well, I have a new business plan where I am buying up empty boxes and putting the 36 wrappers in them with a bunch of singles and selling them as a lot for big profits.
Honest answers shouldn't be as jumbled as Gary's. I still ahve yet to hear one logical answer to our questions other than that he intentionally lied about the 86 Fleer box, which certainly doesn't help his credibility. In fact, he repeatedly lied about it until blindflyer offered his suspicions (and unintentionally gave him an answer).
<< <i>ramblings becuase im so sick from all this i cant think staright.
<<1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?>>
1 didnt lie strched the story to look good. 2 no i never switched out any boxes from bbce 3 did i ever tamper or reseal a pack to anyparticipant. Absolutly ands 100 % no way >>
Excellent! Thank you.
Two more questions and I'll leave you alone:
1. Looking at TomTim's post (that I pasted in a few posts back), can you explain where the 84 and 78 football box came from? Why did you say they came from BBCE if they didn't?
2. Are you maintaining that all ebay purchases (wrappers of 84 football, lot of 78 topps, etc) were purchased with the intent for you to repackage with empty boxes and resell back on ebay? And, most importantly --- none of that product was given to any of the rip participants?
Thanks, Gary.
-Tom
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Well .. that's all I needed to hear. How many hobbyists want a box made from cobbled together packs -- unknown to them (but known to the seller to be "dead").
For example,
You walk into hobby shop.
You ask shop guy to open a box.
You grab a pack, or 5, and hit the money cards and stop.
Is it ok/ethical for the shop owner to open a new box, begin the process again, and once both boxes are "dead" combine the two dead boxes to have a full box to pass off to the next customer?
Hell no ... you would be pissed off if you were the customer and knew that was happening.
Explain to me how buying crap cards, empty wrappers, and emptyy boxes and selling them together is any different? This seems to be passing them off as if they all came together. Nice for a resealer I guess.
How is it any different than buying an empty box and filling it with unopened packs from anywhere other than the box they came from any different.
It's not. Still a sham meant to maximize profit at the expense of a buyer.
This is repugnant -- ALL ASIDE from any rips mentioned here.
This is all shady to me.
I apologize in advance if I'm out of line .. but I don't think I am based on previous posts in various threads. Nice business model for all buyers to avoid at all costs.
If someone would do the above .. wether or not the pack rips were above board .. the shadow can't be lifted.
You did mention that what you do here is different that what you do on eBay. Well, I couldn't take that at face value.
Back to the rafters and the clean side of the hobby for me.
Looking for a Glen Rice Inkredible and Alex Rodriguez cards
<< <i>2. Are you maintaining that all ebay purchases (wrappers of 84 football, lot of 78 topps, etc) were purchased with the intent for you to repackage with empty boxes and resell back on ebay? And, most importantly --- none of that product was given to any of the rip participants? >>
Tom
I'm speaking in general terms since it potentially leads to character...
Who would buy a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of the same yr cards?
If he defaces the wrappers so they can't be resealed - who would want the wrappers.
Even if I were to buy them to give to 36 of my bestest friends - I sure wouldn't want to give them an X'ed out wrapper. Would I?
His business model is falling apart at the seams IMO. mike
I'm speaking in general terms since it potentially leads to character...
Who would buy a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of the same yr cards?
If he defaces the wrappers so they can't be resealed - who would want the wrappers.
Even if I were to buy them to give to 36 of my bestest friends - I sure wouldn't want to give them an X'ed out wrapper. Would I?
His business model is falling apart at the seams IMO. mike >>
Mike,
Right now i'm just trying to get straight answers from him. I'm not providing my own commentary or feedback based on what he says. Simply trying to get the facts. ... but, I'm definitely not saying that I don't agree with you!
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
While there may be lingering questions and doubt, you can understand why there is a cloud hanging over your head. Just be honest and consistant, it will eventually be over.
Let's not forget to ask why the '85 Topps Football box was missing...
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
FOR ONE I WOULD NOT DEFACE THE WRAPPER A SIMPLE SHARPIE BLACK DOT ON THE INSIDE OF THE WRAPPERS IS SUFFICE THEN THE WRAPPERS CAN STILL BE DISPLAYED BUT NEVER MISUSED.
AND AS FOR THE MISSING 85 BOX WHEN I PLACED THE ORDER STEVE WAS OUT OF BOXES HE SSAID HE HAD 36 PACKS AND THATS WHAT WE GOT SINCE WE WERE SPLITTING THEM SOUNFDED GOOD DIDNT NEED THE BOX ANYWAYS. AND WHEN THE 85 PACKS WERE CRAP STEVE STOOD RIGHT UP AND OFFERED A NEW BOX SOON AS HE GOT THEM IN.
SEE THIS IS MUCH EASIER TO BE CONSISTANT AND ANSWER QUESTIONS WHEN 40 PEOPLE ARNT JUMPING YOU EVERY TIME YOU POST AT LEAST I HAVENT GOT SICK IN A FEW HOURS AND THE KNOT IN MY STOMACH IS SLOWLY UNTANGLING
A couple of months ago, on the coin forum, there was a similar "broken-trust scandal."
For the first few days, the threads were filled with denials of guilt by the subject. The excuses/explanations became more ridiculous by the hour.
Finally, the subject posted the whole truth, apologized, and promised "never to do anything like that again." Forgiving sentiments from the wronged parties were almost universal, and the subject has made strides in rematriculating into the fold.
Because a person cannot resist temptation to do evil does not automatically mean the person is evil; just that he did an evil thing for which amends can be made.
If Nixon had gone on TV and said,
"Well, you guys were right. I caused folks to do something bad and then I tried to cover it up. I cannot believe I did it, but I did. I never did anything like that before and I never will again. I am profoundly sorry for betraying your trust. I hope I can earn the right to ask you to forgive me,"
he would not have been hounded from office.
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>Because a person cannot resist temptation to do evil does not automatically mean the person is evil; just that he did an evil thing for which amends can be made. >>
Said often, but not practiced or believed often. Thank you for those words.
So your story about buying the boxes from the old man and the 5 hour drive was a lie?
<< <i>ok blind heres the truth I did by a collection of 86 fleer packs and used the box i bought to put them in and take the picture yes i was doing alittle bragging. I like to share my finds all the wrappers I bought i have accounted for and really was planing on what i said. does putting packs and boxes and cards together say here reseal these. not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. I have an empty box collection also and try to get 36 or 24 wrappers to go with them theres a market for it and it makes money on ebay. You know I cant say anything right now with out more people jumping all over me Im not trying to play victim here as some say but I know I did not reseal anypacks and am waiting for this to calm down were cool heads can talk without all the fighting . Blind thanks for atleast sticking to innocent before provin guilty. and as far as my bar top i wanted that all in 75 topps mini wrappers to remember the 75 case break i never said all the wrappers i recently bought were for my bar top and if i did that was a err on my part.
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here. >>
<< <i>FOR ONE I WOULD NOT DEFACE THE WRAPPER A SIMPLE SHARPIE BLACK DOT ON THE INSIDE OF THE WRAPPERS IS SUFFICE THEN THE WRAPPERS CAN STILL BE DISPLAYED BUT NEVER MISUSED. >>
Gary
No one is gonna buy a wrapper that has any kind of mark on it - no more than a card.
Only a scammer would still be interested - since a novice who buys from these nefarious types would more than likely miss the dot.
Selling a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of cards has got to be one of the less inspired ideas I've heard for making money on ebay.
Why weren't we made aware of the change in the football boxes? You kept us constantly updated on all other issues related to the rip, but couldnt tell us that not all the boxes were coming from where we thought they were?
The fact that nothing was said cries of deception to me. And if you are out-and-out trying to deceive us in other areas (such as the 86 Fleer Box) why would anyone believe what you say about resealing? Especially when there is overwhelming evidence supporting it?
Sorry, this is an open and shut case after hearing these explanations.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans. >>
Storm888 ---
Guilty for what?
Defrauding ebay buyers buy piecing together packs? "Stretching the truth" on the 86 Fleer Box to look cool?
.. b/c that's all he's been really shown to be "guilty of" ...
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
TomTim did raise some VERY good questions about orgin of a few boxes, but other than that there's really no guilt from a CU Forum / Pack Rip perspective.
NOTE: This does NOT mean I condone his ebay activity -- but that shouldn't require what you're asking for above.
-t
- Building these sets: ------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+ ------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc). -t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier.
Comments
<< <i>someone looking in: I usually would not post in post like this because I have not ripped, but I was thinking about it to the guy who said
If you were innocent, wouldn't you answer direct questions instead of giving the runaround and telling hunderds of people to pm you, because it would be easier.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>I've been ripped publicly and privately in my life so I have some understanding on the subject. When attacked, it is natural instinct to back away into a corner. However, you have to defend yourself and provide the facts when asked for the facts, especially when doing business with others. Beating around the bush and longing for the day that the accusers get theirs is not the way to go about this. If I was being wrongfully accused I would be doing everything in my power to clear my name and not spending time deleting old posts. >>
This is where we have to be careful guys....
He was NOT running around deleting old posts. To my understanding he removed the 84 football post --- nothing more.
Things don't look good for him, but us embellishing the "facts" just water everything else down.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>[To my understanding he removed the 84 football post --- nothing more. >>
Should've been more specific in my post. Deleting any post considering what was going on was not a good idea.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>One does not need a good memory if one is honest. If you lie, you have to remember your lies. >>
I always say: If you tell the truth, you never have to worry about remembering what you said.
<< <i>What is still getting lost here:
Good cards have been pulled from Gary's rips...
Payton RC
Elway RC
Montana RC
Eddie Murray RC
Mattingly RC
... and, I'll need to go back and look this up, but a Ripken RC was pulled from a rip --- can't remember if it was Gary's.
I'm not saying the rips were pure gold in terms of what was pulled --- but if you look at the actual results they do appear to resemble a normal box bust --- especially given the fact that several people did not rip or post (and several made it clear they were sending into grading).
If you figure that anywhere from 50-70% of each box was ripped, I'd argue that enough decent cards came out to potentially show the box as clean.
...and, I am NOT a Gary apologist --- but I just don't see any hard evidence to convict him of resealing or tampering with anyone's packs.
He is obviously lying about the 86 Fleer box --- but I think that has more to do with him wanting to paint a picture of begin a "high roller" and "big spender." I also think he may have switched out some BBCE boxes for some from other sources (which is a chitty thing to do, no doubt) --- but I do not believe he tampered/resealed packs in our rip. The evidence just doesn't support it.
-Tom >>
I pulled a 86 Young, 81 Winslow, 89 Woodson, 89 Mandrich (oh that really doesnt count does it).
Forgot to mention a 82 Lott.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Edit: Link to the edited 78 posts.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been ripped publicly and privately in my life so I have some understanding on the subject. When attacked, it is natural instinct to back away into a corner. However, you have to defend yourself and provide the facts when asked for the facts, especially when doing business with others. Beating around the bush and longing for the day that the accusers get theirs is not the way to go about this. If I was being wrongfully accused I would be doing everything in my power to clear my name and not spending time deleting old posts. >>
This is where we have to be careful guys....
He was NOT running around deleting old posts. To my understanding he removed the 84 football post --- nothing more.
Things don't look good for him, but us embellishing the "facts" just water everything else down.
-t >>
correctomundo.
1) Several of the packs had double folds at the corners. Some had the wrapper fused to the back card. A few of the packs were about the most pathetic attempts at resealing that I've come across in my years of buying unopened material. There's no question in my mind some were tampered with.
2) Not all packs showed signs of tampering. Most of the key packs did though.
3) The best cards I got from the run were an O/C '80 Molitor and an '85 Fleer Tony Perez. It is possible to open a run of packs and get nothing but it seems a lot of people (particularly in the 80s rip) had similar results to mine.
4) I've bought a handful of vintage (1960s) wax packs from BBCE and have been happy with the quality. I've also looked at several of his packs at shows and all look clean with no signs of resealing. I have no qualms about buying more unopened material from BBCE in the future.
5) At the time of the 80s rip, I questioned if anyone had received anything good and asked if the packs looked legit. I did this privately because I did not want to make it sound like I was publicly questioning BBCE's quality (which I'm not). Now I'm wishing I had posted the concerns on the forum.
6) I have not participated in a group rip since. I didn't participate for financial gain but I do like to get clean packs.
however, it'd take me a few days. There's an initial shock of getting hit by a 40-ton brick. Gary is in that phase right now I imagine. His entire "hobby world" has come unglued. There are so many attackers and witchhunters where do you even start?
He started last night with a general response. Let's see what he does over the next few days. That will show me, at least, how important his reputation is around here and if we really matter like he says we do.>>
Exactly my hobby worls has come ungled to the point i dont know if i want it to recover. Im sitting by listening and ive made post in the basketball and football thread to me those are who i need to defend my honor and integrety too not the witch hunters. Of course now everyone is trying to desperatly find something wrong with the rips which makes me sick but i understand and will stand by my stance posted at the top of this thread.
I wont name a name but i offered refunds on the basketball rip this is already sticking my neck out since i did nothing wrong. The person wants a refund before i get the cards back. I may be accused but not born yesterday why now should i trust said operson to send cards back once they get a refund. Because they are trust worthy while untill this witch hunt i was trust worthy and still am.
What i want to know is alll this witch hunting I will wait to see how many involved appologize when the truth comes out
<< <i>when the truth comes out >>
Why not flood the place with the truth now?
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
As a coach I extol my athletes to not even put themselves into that type of position. Once that trust is lost it is probably one of the most difficult things to get back.
<< <i>
What i want to know is alll this witch hunting I will wait to see how many involved appologize when the truth comes out >>
Gary --- I've probably "defended" you more than anyone else on this board --- or at least have maintained that you *may* be innocent.
No more diversions like above. You owe us the TRUTH. You owe us the reason you lied about the 86F bkball box. You owe us the reason why all of the wrappers/lots you were buying on ebay coincided with product we were ripping and why non of your "resealing kits" haven't ever been sold on ebay.
You owe us truth, bro.
We are willing to forgive (I am at least) --- but I need some truth. Plain. Simple. Truth.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
But there sure is an avoidance of the whole empty box story.
I dont think anyone here will get what they are looking for. Use all of the circumstances that have been addressed be your guide.
you don't find anything suspicous in what people are trying to say?
buying old wrappers, empty boxes, puzzle pieces and near mint commons. to a lot of people that says making your own packs.
At this point only you and you alone know that you are 100% innocent or guilty. There is no gray area in this matter. If you cheated one buyer with one pack than you are guilty. If you swapped out a BBCE box for someone else's potentially inferior box you are guilty.
The longer you delay your response with an honest and believeable answer the deeper the hole you are digging.
If you are guilty is the money you made from this worth your reputation? Most card sellers on E-Bay depend on repeat business. From that standpoint you have made a bad financial decision of choosing what was easy as opposed to what is right.
Simply:
1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?
Black. White. Truth. Plain. Simple.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here.
<< <i>ok blind heres the truth I did by a collection of 86 fleer packs and used the box i bought to put them in and take the picture yes i was doing alittle bragging. I like to share my finds all the wrappers I bought i have accounted for and really was planing on what i said. does putting packs and boxes and cards together say here reseal these. not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. I have an empty box collection also and try to get 36 or 24 wrappers to go with them theres a market for it and it makes money on ebay. You know I cant say anything right now with out more people jumping all over me Im not trying to play victim here as some say but I know I did not reseal anypacks and am waiting for this to calm down were cool heads can talk without all the fighting . Blind thanks for atleast sticking to innocent before provin guilty. and as far as my bar top i wanted that all in 75 topps mini wrappers to remember the 75 case break i never said all the wrappers i recently bought were for my bar top and if i did that was a err on my part.
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here. >>
Gary,
Excellent. We're getting somewhere. Thanks.
Now:
1. Did you ever claim to send out BBCE boxes and end up switching them out for boxes from other sources?
...and, if so, why?
The screenshot below from TomTim is something I would like for you to specifically address:
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Even if what you say is true -- do you understand how it is deceptive to buyers if you buy packs and then package them up in a separate empty box to make them look good? The unopened market values provenance and respect. Finding random packs and then putting them into an empty box is a whole hell of a lot different than purchasing an unopened box. And that is outright deceptive.
Marc
If you want to sound convincing you need to answer these clearly and concisely..... is it that hard for you to do?
<< <i>Gary,
Simply:
1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?
Black. White. Truth. Plain. Simple.
-Tom >>
UPDATE:
#1. Yes. Claims he put real packs in purchased box to brag.
#2. Waiting for answer
#3. Waiting for answer
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. >>
Gary
Come on - saying this now...after the fact - it's kind of insulting to ones intelligence.
You know as well as any collector - that defacing a wrapper ruins it's collectibility - not even addressing the possibility of reseals. In fact, why sell a collectible that's defaced if the only thing they're gonna do with them is save/display/put them on their bar etc.?
This is not flying for me.
mike
<<1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?>>
1 didnt lie strched the story to look good.
2 no i never switched out any boxes from bbce
3 did i ever tamper or reseal a pack to anyparticipant. Absolutly ands 100 % no way
Bob: Hey Joe, where'd you get that 86 Fleer box?
Joe: I bought it off ebay.
Here's Gary's answer: An old man down the street called me and had stuff to sell, so I bought it. That's why I couldn't take pictures of the boxes from the vintage football rip because I had to go down the street and buy this collection from an old man.
Let's try another-
Bob: Hey Joe, where'd you get the 84 Topps box?
Joe: I got it off ebay.
Gary: Well BBCE was out of them, 80, 77, and 78 so I bought the 77 and 80 from DACardworld and the 78 I had to pay extra for somewhere. (Notice no mention of the 84 box in question).
One more for fun-
Bob: Hey Joe, what are you doing buying all those vintage wrappers, singles, and boxes?
Joe: I collect them.
Gary: Well, I have a new business plan where I am buying up empty boxes and putting the 36 wrappers in them with a bunch of singles and selling them as a lot for big profits.
Honest answers shouldn't be as jumbled as Gary's. I still ahve yet to hear one logical answer to our questions other than that he intentionally lied about the 86 Fleer box, which certainly doesn't help his credibility. In fact, he repeatedly lied about it until blindflyer offered his suspicions (and unintentionally gave him an answer).
Lee
<< <i>ramblings becuase im so sick from all this i cant think staright.
<<1. Why did you lie about the 86 Fleer box?
2. Did you "switch out" any BBCE box for a similar box from another source?
3. Did you ever tamper/reseal with any pack before sending it to a participant?>>
1 didnt lie strched the story to look good.
2 no i never switched out any boxes from bbce
3 did i ever tamper or reseal a pack to anyparticipant. Absolutly ands 100 % no way >>
Excellent! Thank you.
Two more questions and I'll leave you alone:
1. Looking at TomTim's post (that I pasted in a few posts back), can you explain where the 84 and 78 football box came from? Why did you say they came from BBCE if they didn't?
2. Are you maintaining that all ebay purchases (wrappers of 84 football, lot of 78 topps, etc) were purchased with the intent for you to repackage with empty boxes and resell back on ebay? And, most importantly --- none of that product was given to any of the rip participants?
Thanks, Gary.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
For example,
You walk into hobby shop.
You ask shop guy to open a box.
You grab a pack, or 5, and hit the money cards and stop.
Is it ok/ethical for the shop owner to open a new box, begin the process again, and once both boxes are "dead" combine the two dead boxes to have a full box to pass off to the next customer?
Hell no ... you would be pissed off if you were the customer and knew that was happening.
Explain to me how buying crap cards, empty wrappers, and emptyy boxes and selling them together is any different? This seems to be passing them off as if they all came together. Nice for a resealer I guess.
How is it any different than buying an empty box and filling it with unopened packs from anywhere other than the box they came from any different.
It's not. Still a sham meant to maximize profit at the expense of a buyer.
This is repugnant -- ALL ASIDE from any rips mentioned here.
This is all shady to me.
I apologize in advance if I'm out of line .. but I don't think I am based on previous posts in various threads. Nice business model for all buyers to avoid at all costs.
If someone would do the above .. wether or not the pack rips were above board .. the shadow can't be lifted.
You did mention that what you do here is different that what you do on eBay. Well, I couldn't take that at face value.
Back to the rafters and the clean side of the hobby for me.
<< <i>2. Are you maintaining that all ebay purchases (wrappers of 84 football, lot of 78 topps, etc) were purchased with the intent for you to repackage with empty boxes and resell back on ebay? And, most importantly --- none of that product was given to any of the rip participants? >>
Tom
I'm speaking in general terms since it potentially leads to character...
Who would buy a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of the same yr cards?
If he defaces the wrappers so they can't be resealed - who would want the wrappers.
Even if I were to buy them to give to 36 of my bestest friends - I sure wouldn't want to give them an X'ed out wrapper. Would I?
His business model is falling apart at the seams IMO.
mike
I am not saying that he is guilty on the rip but there is no integrity and trust is absolutely shot.
Yeah, this is bad.
<< <i>1 didnt lie strched the story to look good. >>
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>Tom
I'm speaking in general terms since it potentially leads to character...
Who would buy a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of the same yr cards?
If he defaces the wrappers so they can't be resealed - who would want the wrappers.
Even if I were to buy them to give to 36 of my bestest friends - I sure wouldn't want to give them an X'ed out wrapper. Would I?
His business model is falling apart at the seams IMO.
mike >>
Mike,
Right now i'm just trying to get straight answers from him. I'm not providing my own commentary or feedback based on what he says. Simply trying to get the facts. ... but, I'm definitely not saying that I don't agree with you!
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Let's not forget to ask why the '85 Topps Football box was missing...
Lee
AND AS FOR THE MISSING 85 BOX WHEN I PLACED THE ORDER STEVE WAS OUT OF BOXES HE SSAID HE HAD 36 PACKS AND THATS WHAT WE GOT SINCE WE WERE SPLITTING THEM SOUNFDED GOOD DIDNT NEED THE BOX ANYWAYS. AND WHEN THE 85 PACKS WERE CRAP STEVE STOOD RIGHT UP AND OFFERED A NEW BOX SOON AS HE GOT THEM IN.
SEE THIS IS MUCH EASIER TO BE CONSISTANT AND ANSWER QUESTIONS WHEN 40 PEOPLE ARNT JUMPING YOU EVERY TIME YOU POST
AT LEAST I HAVENT GOT SICK IN A FEW HOURS AND THE KNOT IN MY STOMACH IS SLOWLY UNTANGLING
<< <i>I would like to ask Gary if he is alright, His grammar and typing skills have deminished dramatically. >>
He wasn't exactly a Rhodes Scholar to begin with....
84 Fleer
86 Topps
And now he's a member of "Square Trade".
was a similar "broken-trust scandal."
For the first few days, the threads were filled with denials
of guilt by the subject. The excuses/explanations became
more ridiculous by the hour.
Finally, the subject posted the whole truth, apologized,
and promised "never to do anything like that again."
Forgiving sentiments from the wronged parties were almost
universal, and the subject has made strides in rematriculating
into the fold.
Because a person cannot resist temptation to do evil does
not automatically mean the person is evil; just that he did
an evil thing for which amends can be made.
If Nixon had gone on TV and said,
"Well, you guys were right. I caused folks to do something bad and then I tried
to cover it up. I cannot believe I did it, but I did. I never did anything like that before
and I never will again. I am profoundly sorry for betraying your trust. I hope I can
earn the right to ask you to forgive me,"
he would not have been hounded from office.
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably
consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody
would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans.
<< <i>Because a person cannot resist temptation to do evil does
not automatically mean the person is evil; just that he did
an evil thing for which amends can be made. >>
Said often, but not practiced or believed often. Thank you for those words.
<< <i>ok blind heres the truth I did by a collection of 86 fleer packs and used the box i bought to put them in and take the picture yes i was doing alittle bragging. I like to share my finds all the wrappers I bought i have accounted for and really was planing on what i said. does putting packs and boxes and cards together say here reseal these. not if i mark the packs so they cant be resealed and state that in the auction. I have an empty box collection also and try to get 36 or 24 wrappers to go with them theres a market for it and it makes money on ebay. You know I cant say anything right now with out more people jumping all over me Im not trying to play victim here as some say but I know I did not reseal anypacks and am waiting for this to calm down were cool heads can talk without all the fighting . Blind thanks for atleast sticking to innocent before provin guilty. and as far as my bar top i wanted that all in 75 topps mini wrappers to remember the 75 case break i never said all the wrappers i recently bought were for my bar top and if i did that was a err on my part.
I also understand this is a community and those not involved had a right to speak
With what is being said there is nothing i can say that will make anyone agree with me. i admit it looks badbut i know what i didnt do and that is reseal anypacks. These rips were lots of fun to me the 70's rips were great simply because i never ripped 70's stuff and being the one to put it all together was a great feeling. There was never anythought of doing ill things to these packs or the guys on here. >>
<< <i>FOR ONE I WOULD NOT DEFACE THE WRAPPER A SIMPLE SHARPIE BLACK DOT ON THE INSIDE OF THE WRAPPERS IS SUFFICE THEN THE WRAPPERS CAN STILL BE DISPLAYED BUT NEVER MISUSED. >>
Gary
No one is gonna buy a wrapper that has any kind of mark on it - no more than a card.
Only a scammer would still be interested - since a novice who buys from these nefarious types would more than likely miss the dot.
Selling a box, 36 wrappers and a bulk lot of cards has got to be one of the less inspired ideas I've heard for making money on ebay.
mike
Why weren't we made aware of the change in the football boxes? You kept us constantly updated on all other issues related to the rip, but couldnt tell us that not all the boxes were coming from where we thought they were?
The fact that nothing was said cries of deception to me. And if you are out-and-out trying to deceive us in other areas (such as the 86 Fleer Box) why would anyone believe what you say about resealing? Especially when there is overwhelming evidence supporting it?
Sorry, this is an open and shut case after hearing these explanations.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
A similar action on Gary's part is an option that he should probably
consider. The results would be astounding to Gary, and everybody
would learn a valuable lesson about the nature of us humans. >>
Storm888 ---
Guilty for what?
Defrauding ebay buyers buy piecing together packs?
"Stretching the truth" on the 86 Fleer Box to look cool?
.. b/c that's all he's been really shown to be "guilty of" ...
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
TomTim did raise some VERY good questions about orgin of a few boxes, but other than that there's really no guilt from a CU Forum / Pack Rip perspective.
NOTE: This does NOT mean I condone his ebay activity -- but that shouldn't require what you're asking for above.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>This sure does look like a box sealed by Steve Hart. Interesting it was one of the ones from the first 80's baseball rip.
<< <i>BBCE shrink-wraps their older boxes like that, correct?
<< <i>This sure does look like a box sealed by Steve Hart. Interesting it was one of the ones from the first 80's baseball rip.
>>
>>
Yes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
All hard evidence points to the rips NOT being tampered with (i.e. Montana, Elway, Payton RCs, packs coming back graded as legit, etc).
-t >>
You must have missed my post. Though you don't know me or what I do or don't know about validating unopened wax, a few of my packs were so bad it would be equivalent to trying to validate whether a card with crayon scribbling on the back would get a 'MK' qualifier.