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the difference between PCGS and NGC values is obvious
GoldenEyeNumismatics
Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
at least for 1892 S Morgans in AU58. I was scanning through Hertiage's auction archives looking at AU58 1892 S Morgans. NGC coins never sell for more than $8000, while PCGS coins never sell for less than $13,000, with a couple over $17,000. What a difference.
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- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
It's not like NGC is chopped liver; there are thousands of pieces that absolutely would cross at PCGS. It's an opportunity to get great coins at a "discount."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Such is the power of Kool-aid.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>While prices may support this , its still best to buy the coin , not the holder .
A saying that's used often and should be done often, and
<< <i>Dealers are aware of this difference in value so they try multiple times to get the coin to cross before you ever get a chance to own the coin. >>
Yes, but if they submit the coin in the NGC holder it's less likely to cross over, I think, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. And it would take SERIOUS brass ones to crack it out for resubmission when the difference between 55 and 58 is so large for this particular coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Dealers are aware of this difference in value so they try multiple times to get the coin to cross before you ever get a chance to own the coin. >>
Yes, but if they submit the coin in the NGC holder it's less likely to cross over, I think, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. And it would take SERIOUS brass ones to crack it out for resubmission when the difference between 55 and 58 is so large for this particular coin. >>
Serious Brass.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Dealers are aware of this difference in value so they try multiple times to get the coin to cross before you ever get a chance to own the coin. >>
Yes, but if they submit the coin in the NGC holder it's less likely to cross over, I think, claims to the contrary notwithstanding. And it would take SERIOUS brass ones to crack it out for resubmission when the difference between 55 and 58 is so large for this particular coin. >>
Serious Brass. >>
Nah. I've had a $250k coin cracked and resubmitted. It's no biggie. But I doubt dealers would send a coin to NGC to be graded and then crack it out to try and cross it. They're more likely to repeat the crossover process a dozen times and then try that.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
And this little gem of absolute real-world reality is why I firmly believe that "Buy the coin, not the holder" is often a tactic sellers use on collectors with less-than-outstanding grading skills, to goad them into buying coins they don't really want to buy -- in this case, coins in holders that the dealers have for sale, not coins in the holders that many collectors would prefer to purchase.
<< <i>Personally, I think that NGC is "looser" with Southern gold than PCGS. Pass the Kool-aid.
In general, NGC is looser with gold, period. In looking for coins for my type set, NGC throws the AU-58 grade around like cheap candy for gold. PCGS (and ICG for that matter) are tighter with that grade. Having said that, I have found some very nice AU-58 gold in NGC plastic, but I have to wonder if it's a matter of time before it too is crossed over, thus making NGC look looser than they really are.
It's not so much true for non-gold, though in some cases it still is true. How much of that is because properly-graded NGC coins are crossed to PCGS for the Kool-Aid factor, I don't know -- but it does make NGC look looser than they probably are because only their "mistakes" are left in their holders. That's the dangerous aspect of Kool-Aid, IMO.
<< <i>Nah. I've had a $250k coin cracked and resubmitted. It's no biggie. >>
Let them eat cake.
<< <i>
<< <i>Such is the power of Kool-aid.
Someone has to keep the crack out artists in business. As long as the value of PCGS coins is more than anything else the crack out artists will keep playing the grade-flation game...
<< <i>at least for 1892 S Morgans in AU58. I was scanning through Hertiage's auction archives looking at AU58 1892 S Morgans. NGC coins never sell for more than $8000, while PCGS coins never sell for less than $13,000, with a couple over $17,000. What a difference. >>
It's the coin, Kool-Aid drinker, not the holder. I had an 1893-S dollar in an NGC AU-55 holder that was good as anything PCGS had holdered for the grade. At the time I got WAY OVER AU money for the coin.
Yes, on AVERAGE, PCGS coins are more conservatively graded. BUT the KEY WORD is AVERAGE. That means that you can't act like an empty headed cow and make your purchases based only on brand name loyalty. You need to know how to grade coins and how to spot the PQ pieces that bring the premium prices.
I've said it time and time again, but some of you don't get it. A monopoly in the coin certification works against the best interests of the average dealer and collector. Competition keeps companies honest in all economic endeavourers. If one firm gets out of line, the others will offer a better product are perhaps lower prices. That will force the firm that gotten off its game to fix the problem or continue to decline. It’s just simple economics.
<< <i>In general, NGC is looser with gold, period. In looking for coins for my type set, NGC throws the AU-58 grade around like cheap candy for gold. >>
You are overstating the situation. Yes PCGS AU-58 gold coins tend to be a little nicer, but making a blanket statement like that is inaccurate. Last December I filled a want list for a customer who wanted an 1834 quarter eagle. The coin I found for him was a wonderful AU-58 in an NGC holder. The coin was totally original and had not been fooled with as is often the case with too many Classic Head gold pieces. It was well struck with no distracting marks, and just as the grade implies, a hair’s breath short of Mint State.
In a similar vein, I have an 1834 half eagle in my collection that is in a PCGS MS-61 holder. I only grade it as AU-58, but I’ve seen the same date and the same type coin in PCGS MS-61, and the look was almost identical. Heck I've seen Classic Head $5 gold coins in MS-63 holders that were not strictly Unc. IMO.
Sorry to take you to the woodshed, but when you make blanket statements that NGC is “a loser” when comes to gold, it’s a misrepresentation of reality.
<< <i>at least for 1892 S Morgans in AU58. I was scanning through Hertiage's auction archives looking at AU58 1892 S Morgans. NGC coins never sell for more than $8000, while PCGS coins never sell for less than $13,000, with a couple over $17,000. What a difference. >>
Big reason for people to play "Crack'em and Cross'em".
Say the NGC AU 58 comes back as a PCGS AU 53.....did the submitter lose money?
Positive BST: WhiteThunder (x2), Ajaan, onefasttalon, mirabela, Wizard1, cucamongacoin, mccardguy1
Negative BST: NONE!
<< <i>Sorry to take you to the woodshed, but when you make blanket statements that NGC is “a loser” when comes to gold, it’s a misrepresentation of reality. >>
Saying "in general" is not a blanket statement. Saying things like "all" and "always" is a blanket statement.
Sorry to take your misinterpretation to the woodshed.
[Edit to add: By the way, it's also not a blanket statement when you add the sentence after the one you quoted: "Having said that, I have found some very nice AU-58 gold in NGC plastic..." ]
<< <i>
<< <i>at least for 1892 S Morgans in AU58. I was scanning through Hertiage's auction archives looking at AU58 1892 S Morgans. NGC coins never sell for more than $8000, while PCGS coins never sell for less than $13,000, with a couple over $17,000. What a difference. >>
It's the coin, Kool-Aid drinker, not the holder. I had an 1893-S dollar in an NGC AU-55 holder that was good as anything PCGS had holdered for the grade. At the time I got WAY OVER AU money for the coin.
Yes, on AVERAGE, PCGS coins are more conservatively graded. BUT the KEY WORD is AVERAGE. That means that you can't act like an empty headed cow and make your purchases based only on brand name loyalty. You need to know how to grade coins and how to spot the PQ pieces that bring the premium prices.
I've said it time and time again, but some of you don't get it. A monopoly in the coin certification works against the best interests of the average dealer and collector. Competition keeps companies honest in all economic endeavourers. If one firm gets out of line, the others will offer a better product are perhaps lower prices. That will force the firm that gotten off its game to fix the problem or continue to decline. It’s just simple economics. >>
In recent years it has become the holder, not the coin. In many situations a VERY PQ coin in an NGC holder will not bring nearly as much as a very lousy coin in a PCGS holder.
In the situation he mentioned, I'd take the PQ NGC coin every time & then tell the dealer that because it's in an NGC holder, it's worth less. If the dealer doesn't want to come down in price, he can try to sell it elsewhere.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I believe it's more of a case of PCGS under grading then NGC over grading. >>
Seriously?
<< <i>Dealers are aware of this difference in value so they try multiple times to get the coin to cross before you ever get a chance to own the coin. The result is a large disparity in quality at the same grade. >>
This statement is correct and explains the difference in prices.
or God forbid.....raw....
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
them baked, broiled, or boiled by a coin doctor.
Camelot
I happen to think a number of coins I've submitted to PCGS are undergraded, though I am uncomfortable playing 'crackout'.
But I've gotten to the point where the only NGCs I purchase are those I either attempt to crossover or break out of their holders and keep raw.