This forum needs a lesson in the Art of Negotiating!

Realone

What I have seen so far from a great many posters on this forum is that nobody thinks one should negotiate for anything especially a coin. All I hear is that you ask for a dealers "best price" if it is what you want to hear you buy it and if it isn't you pass. I suggest that you know it alls and you know who you are on this forum read the book, same title as the message title, I will look up the name of the author if I actually have a convert, which I doubt will materialize any time soon on this forum. I am already mentally prepared not to get any replies on this so called thread so suck eggs.


Edited to say artful or proper negotiating does not equal chiseling or nickel and diming. What does one have to do with the other! I am talking about win win, have you guys ever heard of that, where both sides feel they got a fair shake, not a one sided deal. I don't understand why everything seems to be twisted and or taken out of context by you guys and yopu know who you are.

what is this friends nonsense, this is a discussion on a topic i brought up, it seems if i don't agree with some of you I am not friendly, lets stay on topic if you want to continue to discuss otherwise don't discuss it. We are not discussing how to make friends, we are discussing whether you guys want someone to negotiate or as you put it chisle. No chisling doesn't get anybody anywhere. I dislike cheap people and being in real estate don't care for low ballers. I am discussing two parties ending up winning and being glad they did the deal, got it!

RegistryCoin

derryb

Merry Christmas!

pharmer

<< <i>What I have seen so far from a great many posters on this forum is that nobody thinks one should negotiate for anything especially a coin. All I hear is that you ask for a dealers "best price" if it is what you want to hear you buy it and if it isn't you pass. I suggest that you know it alls and you know who you are on this forum read the book, same title as the message title, I will look up the name of the author if I actually have a convert, which I doubt will materialize any time soon on this forum. I am already mentally prepared not to get any replies on this so called thread so suck eggs. >>



This seems contrary to the new tone around here. What makes you say this?

JoeLewis

What's wrong with you?

Bear

Realone, many of us here, made our livings negotiating.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I do

not happen to agree with it. When we go to buy a coin,

we generally have a very good idea about the value of the coin.

If you have a regular dealer and you try to nickel and dime them,

you will not get first call on the really outstanding coins that come

available. Over a period of time, you will find that being a

contunious chisler, will not save you money in the long run. A collector

expects to pay a fair price for a quality coin. If you wish to pay less then

a fair price, then you will end up with less then a quality coin.

mrearlygold

Maybe the author of the book can give it a whirl at FUN

lathmach

I am in agreement with the Bear.
I remember seeing a sign in a sporting goods store back in the 50's.
"If you want nice clean fresh oats, expect to pay a fair and reasonable price.
If you can can be satisfied with oats that have already come through the horse however, they are a little cheaper"

Ray

Bear

stman

This thread doesn't seem very positive. I'm not listening!!!

Bear

We hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil.

stman

On the flip side of this.... I've sold some coins to dealers and know the market for the coins I sold. I named a price and sent them. They paid my price without negotiating, and paid strong. Why do you think they did this? And yes, these were real "Major" dealers.

BSHINC

I believe that you should start making some friends first........

And A Merry Christmas to you.......

LucyBop

You wanna deal with me in person...?


Better have your best poker face on..... and bring a lunch, because it is going to be a very long day for you.

Frankcoins

When I call my stock broker, there is a current market price, and "negotiating" will just get you a laugh. As certified
coins are fungible and dealer margins are razor-thin compared to 25 years ago, about the same situation exists in the
current coin market. Why would a dealer sell a coin for less than firm sight unseen bids from market-makers?

53BKid

Why so defensive Realone?

Not wanting to put words in your mouth, but as I sift through your point, it seems that you're a advocate of collectors approaching transactions with the objective of striking a price that both parties can feel good about, and that doing business this way promotes more business activity. There's a difference between that appraoch and 'chiseling' no doubt.

So my real question is what key points does the book make that you think are worthwhile to consider?

53BKid

<< <i>When I call my stock broker, there is a current market price, and "negotiating" will just get you a laugh. As certified
coins are fungible and dealer margins are razor-thin compared to 25 years ago, about the same situation exists in the
current coin market. Why would a dealer sell a coin for less than firm sight unseen bids from market-makers? >>



While your right about the margins collapsing in trading stocks, if you don't particularly like the offereing or bid, you can always set a limit order and see whether or not the order is filled. You can submit it either as a day order or G-T-C, good till cancelled.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, coins don't trade as efficiently as stocks listed on the NYSE. However, both buyers and sellers can state prices at which they're willing to transact. From there either both sides accept the transaction as is or attempt to work it out. Traders in less liquid stocks listed either on NASDQ or in the pink sheets go through the same process.

If people act respectfully and don't allow their ego to get in the way, generally they do more business.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>All I hear is that you ask for a dealers "best price" if it is what you want to hear you buy it and if it isn't you pass. >>

Easy there, Hoss...

Since that's almost exactly what I wrote in another thread, I think maybe I should explain that I only suggested it because you seemed to be somewhat disillusioned with negotiations. If you *want* to negotiate, I sure wouldn't try to convince you otherwise. Personally, I prefer the pass/play method over back-and-forth negotiating as either a buyer or a seller, but everybody has to do what they think works best for themselves.

MrEureka

Negotiations certainly have their time and place. However, if one is not careful in selecting the times to negotiate, the negotiations can easily be counterproductive. And if you're not on top of the market, you will have great difficulty picking the right times.

Unknown

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MrEureka

Real One - I understand your post. Perhaps the confusion is because, for most coin buyers, the only deal point worth negotiating is price. In other words, it's a zero sum game. Not alot of room for "win-win" there.

stman

<< <i>On the flip side of this.... I've sold some coins to dealers and know the market for the coins I sold. I named a price and sent them. They paid my price without negotiating, and paid strong. Why do you think they did this? And yes, these were real "Major" dealers. >>



Realone, serious, why do you think they didn't negotiate? I have a few ideas why, but would like to hear what your thoughts are?

BlindedByEgo

The win-win in any negotiation is that the seller and buyer both feel that they got the best deal possible, in that time and place. How you get there is all about people skills and, yes, artful negotiation - even with coins. Understanding a fair price is key, as Bear so eloquently points out.

The hard part is learning to use diplomacy - knowing when a scalpel is more useful than a chain saw, or a sledge instead of a tack hammer. Even dealers have feelings, you know.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>In the book "The Art of Negotiating" the cruxt of the author's main point(s) is (are) with buyers and sellers there will always be room to negotiate in fact there should be for both sides to feel that they are both getting what they want. The goal should be the so called "win win situation". Both buyer and seller should be willing to give up something inorder for that optimum situation to occur. >>

I think it's possible to have a "win win situation" without negatiating, and sometimes, I think negotiating can be counterproductive.

I'm reminded of the time I was sitting at a dealer's table going through a bunch of double-row boxes and got to hear his interactions with other buyers as they stopped at the table. After one particular buyer left, he asked me if I knew the guy and said to me "It doesn't matter what price I quote him- he always want to buy for less." It wasn't a complaint or anything- just an offhand comment. I decided then and there that I didn't want to be that buyer. The way I see it, the "give me your best price" method isn't as hard for the seller (as a general rule) as back-and-forth negotiation. I figure if I can make myself an easier person to sell to than the next guy, there's an increased opportunity for getting the first shot at whatever new stuff the dealer has for sale. But then, that's just me.

Unknown

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Elcontador

When asked, dealers who know me will give me their best price straight out, which is typically 5-10% off 'sticker.' Others I don't know well, when told I am interested in the coin, will do likewise.

At a major show, where the bourse is busy, most dealers don't want to be monopolized negotiating with a private party over a coin, unless the profit margin is substantial (to the dealer). By doing so, they cannot interact with other potential buyers as would otherwise be the case. This can result in lost sales.

By accepting or rejecting the best price, this saves the dealer time when he / she is the most busy.

My typical interaction goes like this.

"I like the coin, what's your best price."
"I can go $X on that coin."
"Is that a cash price, or will you accept a credit card?"
The dealer gives me his / her answer.

At that point, I usually ask that the coin be set aside, and I'll get back within a certain time period. I always follow up with the dealer, whether or not I decide to buy the coin, as a matter of professional courtesy.

LincolnCentMan

As I entered my 20's, I did my best to negotiate prices as low as I could get them with some success. As I matured as a collector, I came to realize that the hassel just wasnt worth the difference in price I was getting. I changed tactics. I started asking dealers, "What's your best price?" They'ed tell me. I'd think it over and buy or pass on it. In this way, dealers liked dealing with me because they knew I dont mess with them. Also, I got better prices once dealers realized this. They realized that I was a good customer to have and that they'd only have one shot to make the sell.

I very rarely counter offer now... and I've been very satisfied with the prices I pay from dealers at shows. I guess that phylosophy has carried over to my message board dealings.

David

53BKid

In my experience, if the someone either has too much tied up in the coin, has an unrealistic sense of what the coin's worth, or feels someone else will pay more in short order, generally they won't move much if at all.

On the other hand, having some strong knowledge about the coin helps. By citing examples of coins that compare while being clear as to what your willing to pay, bids and offers made in good faith generally tend to be accpeted, or at least responded to with a reasonable counter.

WTCG

Negotiating is an art and there is a fine line between negotiating for a better deal and chiseling to a point where you may negatively affect the terms of your deal.

I typically price my coins at the lowest prices I am willing to accept. It isn't difficult to notice and single out the people who think they are clever negotiators when they are in reality acting like an annoyance who believes that it's their duty to mankind to fight over every cent that may be potentially reduced from the original asking price. We adjust our attitudes and prices accordingly when we interact with people who fit this description.

RegistryCoin

I agree with WTCG, and would like to add that each deal is but a small part of, if handled correctly, what may be a long-term relationship of parties to many future deals. If "negotiation" always assumes "resolving dispute" rather than "discussing terms", positive long-term relationships are less likely to be created.

cho10

<< <i>I have negotiated successfully (which means to me both sides are happy with the outcome) and purchased from: Anaconda, Carolina Coin, Gene L Henry, Richard Snow, Pinnacle, Wayne Herndon, Rogers Coins, Broward County Coins, Blue Moon Coins, and Northeast Numismatics and others that I can't recall at this time. Every negotiation was handled professionally ............. >>



Negotiating should not mean bartaring or badgering.
I really do think that bragging about one's successes and naming dealers that have accepted to reduce their prices (or so you claim) is NOT good business practice. I don't tell people how I buy, what price I pay for, whether I was granted terms or if I traded in some of my ducplicate coins. That is confidential information that should remain between me and the dealer.
By making such statements and naming names you are revealing (or claiming to reveal) information that is not only none of our business but, what's worse, you are potentially damaging the furture bargaining ability of those dealers when they will be dealing with anybody reading your text. As I see no educational value in boasting, if you really had to tell us how well you have done, you could have done so without dragging other people into the foray.
Just as a matter of curiosity what was your purpose in starting this thread? The Latin expression would be "Cui prodest?"

RNCHSN

If you ask for my best price, and then try to undercut it, I think negotiations are over. I just gave you my BEST price!

If you look at my retail pricing, and start negotiations with an offer, I'll usually negotiate, and perhaps we can both walk away happy.

DUIGUY

<< <i>I am in agreement with the Bear.
I remember seeing a sign in a sporting goods store back in the 50's.
"If you want nice clean fresh oats, expect to pay a fair and reasonable price.
If you can can be satisfied with oats that have already come through the horse however, they are a little cheaper"

Ray >>






I love that sign !!

itsnotjustme

Maybe people are not receptive to you and your ideas because you walk in here insulting everyone as if you know the history of all the thousands of people on the boards.

And let me suggest you quit editting each of your posts... then people can't see what and only what you originally posted. If you have more to add just reply.

DUIGUY

Some purchases I have made have bin considered pricy by some here . Some set back and say they will wait for a more "affordable "
example . Funny thing is they have yet to show me any example . I agree with bear , you get what you pay for when it comes to rarity !!

TwoSides2aCoin

Send money , then we'll talk about it

Dog97

I didn’t need no stinkin book to teach me how to negotiate, I learned in real life. What’s your problem? Being that you’re in real estate and it sucks now, you got clients trying to chisel and lowball you? Trying to broker their own property so they don’t have to pay your commission? I was in the construction biz where you negotiate everything. Dealing with rich, stingy, rude, obnoxious homeowners who didn’t get rich from SPENDING money will make one pretty sharp. “Chisling” the building supply house out of 3¢ per stud on a bundle of 2x4’s or 2½ ¢ per foot on a spool of electrical wire if I buy 50,000 feet might not seem like much at the time but every little penny adds up. If a piece of equipment rents for $75 per day I expect a better price if I need it for 2 months vs 2 days. You negotiate with the Building Inspector over the building codes when you fail inspection because he doesn’t know what the code means; he got his cushy county job cause he’s the County Commissioner’s brother in law. You negotiate safety violation fines with OSHA. You negotiate with the bank on the best rates for your money when you finally get paid. That’s real life, that’s what puts food on my table, clothes on my child, & $$ in my pocket.
I’ve negotiated many contracts that wasn’t win win nor was everybody happy. For example, on some jobs I could have made more money flipping burgers at Burger King for minimum wage but I had bills I had to pay so I couldn’t “pass.” I’ve negotiated up contracts only to have the homeowner tell me “$50k is too high, I found another guy to do the job for $40k and hired him.” 3 months later the same homeowner is calling me “Hey Bulldog, my guy won’t show up, you still want the job?” “Yeah I reckon but building materials have skyrocket since the last hurricane and I have to charge you $60k now.” Mr Homeowner says “ @%##!!, you #$%^ing #$^hole, ok, when can you start?”

Negotiating with a weasel dealer for recreation over the price of a coin for a luxury hobby is child’s play after you are used to negotiating for survival in this cold cruel real world.
“Best price” isn’t necessarily set in stone; it is a starting point.

roadrunner

It's a thin line to cross at times. Most dealers who try to chisel me for every dime they can get rarely get repeat business. Then again there are dealers like Duncan, Yutzy, Carr, Halperin, Kutcher, etc. who will either pass or play. If you mispriced a coin and they are interested they will counter occasionally. But for the most part if your price is where they can profit, they'll bite.

There have been times where I've been chiseled an extra 5% only to have that buyer do very well on the coin via an upgrade or something. You can bet that will always be in the back of my mind on future transactions. I don't mind giving away an upgrade at my stated price, that's my fault, no one else's. But it does get annoying when you get chiseled when offering a good deal. My reasoning is if you have a coin fairly priced I'm not going to counter you, and I don't expect anything different if positions are flipped. If I see a coin that's PQ+ and upgrade material I'm sure not gonna ask for an extra discount, even if the selling dealer has no clue what he has. I'll do fine just the way the coin is. Seller and buyer always appreciate the quick no nonsense transactions.

This is one Nutmegger who does not follow the Yankee Trader mentality which is so prevalent in today's world. Knowing that if you pass on a quoted price and the next knowledgeable dealer walking behind you will snap it up instantly at the quoted price, you'd better just be happy you got their first and can make money on it. That makes you the "hero." If you pass, the next guy becomes the hero and may be offered other coins like it, while you are left out permanently waiting for the next deal to counter-offer on. With many of my local dealers just having the opportunity to buy first is the key. The price is often right the first time, just do it.

roadrunner

AuldFartte

Sounds to me like your definition of "negotiation" is a thinly masked version of "cheap bass-something".

I've never asked outright for a dealer's "best price". Rather, I look the coin over thoroughly, set it back on the counter (or table), look the dealer (or seller) in they eye and say, "what can you do for me on this one?". Since I already know what price range the coin is worth to me, if his or her reply comes back within that range, I've just bought a coin. If it's a bit over my range, I may look at the coin again and decide to take it, or not.

As previously stated by other more knowledgeable members here, I don't want to make an enemy out of a good source for coins for my collections, and I think in this instance "negotiation" as you call it is rather cheesy.

66Tbird

Negotiation is a form of pressure, and my collection is a hobby for fun. I got out of the classic car BS because most buyers thrive on that pressure.

mgoodm3

The win for the collector in this negotiation isn't always the price. The first shot at future offerings is often the carrot.

mhammerman

"it's a zero sum game"

Nice observation...wise ol' bear...many good observations throughout this thread even withstanding the curious beginning.

Just to add my two cents: Certainly a collector would know a range of prices for the grade and series of the coin or should certainly be near the target area for the price. Ultimately, people are trading multiples of the coin's issue value or bullion value, so it's really the percieved value that collectors and dealers are talking about. There really isn't that much difference between dealers and collectors, we all sell/trade coins for money or other coins, most folk make enough mistakes along the way to learn better than to try and lowball or nickel and dime some guy that has a coin that you want. If you want it and it's priced appropriately for the grade, you just do it.

I had a dealer tell me the price of a coin I asked about and he finished up the statement with "if you ask the price again, the price goes up!" Heck, that makes it pretty easy to decide what to do, flip or fly (I bought the coin). I had another show dealer that was buying a few of my strays that offerd me a lower than expected price on one of the coins (the others were good), I moaned and he passed it back to me and told me to "go ahead and keep this one" (I sold the coin to him). Its easy to do business like that and everybody leaves happy. If a dealer is doing some boogiewoogie with me or if I have the perception that this situation doesn't have good vibes...poof, I would think it is similar for dealers working with the public as well. It's all based in mutual trust and perception and of course, everybody knowing what they are doing or at least close to knowing. Everyone is not going to always see everything the same way...there are differences in perception and intent and not to forget that we all commit errors from time to time. Nobody's good ALL the time, be they collector OR dealer.

Ultimately, we all have to understand what we want and how we will achieve our ambitions with coins. For collectors, it seems to evolve into a more and more complicated strategy as your goals become clearer and your taste begins to mature and your experience begins to be a factor..but doing a lot of negotiating really isn't part of the basic approach.

Coin ON!

roadrunner

Hard to believe but I was looking at a nice PCGS MS65 coin 2 weeks ago that was already priced about 25% above CDN. It was not an upgrade coin but a nice pretty solid 65. It was just too much money imo. When the dealer told me it was low pop and worth every penny I asked him for a pop report just to verify it. The pop seemed plenty high enough not to warrant me buying it. Heck, I had a different date with the same pop in the same grade that was 30% less. The dealer took the opposite approach and said he was "not aware" just HOW LOW the pop was for that series. And then right in front of me as if on a stage, he then jacked the price up to 60% above CDN. I sort of enjoyed the whole melodrama. And to think.....he didn't even give me a commish

roadrunner

mhammerman

Oops, that quote is from mreureka, just noting the wise ol' bear too. My error.

Russ

Okay, folks, here's the deal. Realone thinks he needs to know what a dealer paid for a coin. Collectors who think they need to know a dealer's cost are, of course, those who have no confidence in their own abilities and possess little knowledge of the market. He is making an ass of himself because many in his other thread expressed the opinion that what a dealer has in a coin is irrelevant. Contrary to his deluded assertion, nobody said we shouldn't negotiate.

Russ, NCNE

BigE

Realone, thanks for your brilliant dissertation on the art of negotiation. When do you use the term "suck eggs" in the process? Do you just come right out and say it or slowly build up to it, thanks--------------BigE

53BKid

<< <i>Realone, thanks for your brilliant dissertation on the art of negotiation. When do you use the term "suck eggs" in the process? Do you just come right out and say it or slowly build up to it, thanks--------------BigE >>




Big E: You consistently make me laugh.


Realone: Ah,not to be insulting by any means, if the responses to your rant in this thread are any indication, it appears as if your interpersonal skills may be influencing how people respond to you. Since you're big on reading, it may be worthwhile to read Dale Carnegie's 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. My bet is you'd find afterwards you get more negotiations consumated.

One of the key elements in negotiating effectively from my experience is to respect the person with whom your negotiating.

ricko

The book, and seminar you refer to is by A. Karass.... Nice guy and very good at his subject. However, I believe, (since I once took his seminar) if he read your posting, he would smile and walk away. Most things in life are negotiations of some sort - including forum participation. Giving input.. and RECEIVING information/commentary is a negotiation in information and professional skills enhancement. The first lesson of successful negotiation is to start with a smile - not a snarl. Cheers, RickO

LincolnCentMan

You can argue about a price. You can argue about poor quality... but you cant argue about the price of quality.

David

WinPitcher

I will look up the name of the author if I actually have a convert, which I doubt will materialize any time soon on this forum. I am already mentally prepared not to get any replies on this so called thread so suck eggs.



Nice way to start a negotiation.


Steve

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