"I don't tell people how I buy, what price I pay for, whether I was granted terms or if I traded in some of my ducplicate coins. That is confidential information that should remain between me and the dealer."
Yet another reason (and part of the root problem) why the coin market is NOT transparent and never will be as long as idiots think these (at least the price history) are secrets worth keeping.
> "...my main idea for writing is to have serious discussion " ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...and serious discussion is exactly what's been going on here in two threads that were about the same thing.
The first thread has 33 replies, so far, and this one has 54. I would say that there has been some serious discussion going on.
If you go away, you go away. Nobody is going to submit to your ideas just to humor you. You do have to have some pretty thick skin to operate in a forum such as this. Some people just aren't cut out for it.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<<<I know some of you guys think this a friendship gaining contest, who can make the most friends on this board,... and not trying to gain popularity/or have a popularity contest/or score points. >>>
You mean the guys that suck up to the toned coin dealers? For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I'm at a loss as to why a poster would stick around for 3 months and quit in a snit over nothing. I'm glad that I didn't come here with the hopes of being liked or my words fawned over.
To me this is a forum with great collective knowledge on the overall hobby of coin collecting. I learn something, read a few divergent opinions, laugh at smoe attitudes, and enjoy whatever time I spend here.
From the big time dealers through to the rankest wannabees, from master collectors to the newest of the newbies, I get smoething. The point is, although I get smoething from everyone, I don't value it all the same.
Thank God for the members who do stick around and participate - even if they take a few flaming arrows, they suck it up and carry on.
Very interesting subject...maybe someone could shed some light on the following scenario:
Let's say you are looking at a coin on a reputable national dealers website with whom you never previously conducted business. You like the coin and the price listed is $1,000. Are you to assume that this is the dealer's best price and either take it or leave it? What if you like said coin but to you it is only worth $900? You shouldn't ask because doing so would be rude, impolite or considered chiseling?
I'd really like to get some opinions on the exact scenario outlined above. I'm really not sure how to approach the situation, although I do have an idea.
I always thought that the sticker price wasn't the real price, if you get my drift. Sort of like when you go to the dealership to buy a car, the sticker price is only the starting point to get to the "deal" or agreed upon price.
Help educate a newbe!
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage. ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
Don't worry, Dog. No one here likes you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Let's say you are looking at a coin on a reputable national dealers website with whom you never previously conducted business. You like the coin and the price listed is $1,000. Are you to assume that this is the dealer's best price and either take it or leave it?
No. Contact the dealer, tell him you have an interest, tell him how and when you would pay, and tell him if you will need a return privilege. Then, ask if you can have a discount. Without being clear about the terms, don't be surprised if the answer is that the price is firm.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
I hear ya Dog!! Heh heh is that sarcastic? OK "Heh Heh" how bout that? Who cares? I agree.
Thanks again Dog.>>>
No, that wasn't being sarcastic. Uhmmm...If I remember correctly, you were very difficult to negotiate with over that Binion Black Beauty you posted a few posts up. I have NEVER had anybody haggle me over the price of a free Morgan with free shipping. If I wasn't such a grumpy a$$hole I would have gave in & let you pay me for it.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Hey Dog, I guess you won the negotiation as I tried to pay ya for it (you declined and said it was my Karma or whatever that was about). So this was a "win win" situation. And thanks for not sealing the safety mailer so much that I couldn't use it again. Matter fact, I have used it already. Heh heh
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i> I have negotiated successfully (which means to me both sides are happy with the outcome) and purchased from: Anaconda, Carolina Coin, Gene L Henry, Richard Snow, Pinnacle, Wayne Herndon, Rogers Coins, Broward County Coins, Blue Moon Coins, and Northeast Numismatics and others that I can't recall at this time. >>
This is a LOT of coins to be buying for a relatively new collector. I hope you haven't been buying raw stuff. If you go hogwild and buy a lot of coins starting out, you're going to get stiffed some of the time. I say this from experience.
I have negotiated successfully (which means to me both sides are happy with the outcome) and purchased from: Anaconda, Carolina Coin, Gene L Henry, Richard Snow, Pinnacle, Wayne Herndon, Rogers Coins, Broward County Coins, Blue Moon Coins, and Northeast Numismatics and others that I can't recall at this time.
Realone, I'm mostly in agreement with your point(s) but you manage to say it in a way that pisses people off. --Jerry
Edited after reading a little more to say "mostly". What the dealer/seller paid is irrelevant. So you buy a $300 coin for $50. What a rip, you suck, etc. Then are you limited to a 15% profit. The next 6 guys would get a rip under those rules....what if the dealer figures out he paid to much and is trying to unload at cost. Are you bound by "rules" to give him a profit?
I agree with Russ, probably not for the same reasons. I think Realone, you have interesting views on negotiation and I understand them and in some cases agree with them. As some others have pointed out, usually a dealer has a "best price" on a coin, and will offer that price to known good customers. These customers generally know they have been quoted the best price and will "play or pass" as they say. For an unknown customer, a dealer might not quote the best price, figuring to leave room for a counteroffer. As an example of how this logic works is: I quote a price of $550 on a coin. The collector counters with $500. I might say I have $500 in it which is why I'm quoting $550. Or I might take the $500 if I bought it for $400. Or, regardless of what I paid, I might say that other dealers have it for sale for $600 which is why I'm staying at the $550 number.
Hope this helps, and Realone, stay on the Forums, "What, me worry"
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Very interesting subject...maybe someone could shed some light on the following scenario:
Let's say you are looking at a coin on a reputable national dealers website with whom you never previously conducted business. You like the coin and the price listed is $1,000. Are you to assume that this is the dealer's best price and either take it or leave it? What if you like said coin but to you it is only worth $900? You shouldn't ask because doing so would be rude, impolite or considered chiseling?
I'd really like to get some opinions on the exact scenario outlined above. I'm really not sure how to approach the situation, although I do have an idea.
I always thought that the sticker price wasn't the real price, if you get my drift. Sort of like when you go to the dealership to buy a car, the sticker price is only the starting point to get to the "deal" or agreed upon price.
Help educate a newbe!
>>
Sticker price CAN be a real price. Especially for new material that is 'hot'.
For the scenario you list.....my method has been:
* See price online with dealer I haven't worked with. * Contact dealer and mention interest and if that is their "best price" * If it is, and I like the coin, I get it. * If I don't like the coin at that price and they don't come back lesser, I pass (I never downplay the coin to them as that, to me, would be rude) * If I like the lesser price they come back with, I buy. If not, I pass (see above)
If the coin is "cheap" anyway, like $50 or under, I don't bother unless I am getting a bunch of coins and ask if there is any "bulk discount"....and, I ask tongue-in-cheek.
If the dealer treats me well (even if no discount but I am treated well), they have a future cstomer. If they are rude or ignore me....well, I don't need them anyway
I recently contacted a dealer (forum member who will likely read this) about a coin I'm interested in but thought the price was too high. They responded that grey sheet pricing is often wrong for high demand coins like this (an early half) and their belief that their price is fair and appropriate. I also found another similar coin at another dealer with a similar asked price. I am now thinking about it and will probalby send back a note with my best offer. I will make my offer first to the dealer whose coin I found first, partly because I like their coin and their reputation better and partly because that seems fair. I'm sure they won't be offended and will be glad to either accept or decline. There is no problem in my mind to have honorable discourse concerning price in an attempt to make a deal.
As an ebay seller I am always eager to get offers and never offended by low offers.
<< <i>What I have seen so far from a great many posters on this forum is that nobody thinks one should negotiate for anything especially a coin. >>
Are you kidding? Not only do I haggle every single coin I buy outside of auction, I haggle for EVERYTHING else I can. I've even haggled at Walmart and Target and WON!
<<<Don't worry, Dog. No one here likes you.>>> You guys even bum off people you don't like. Imagine that.
<<<And thanks for not sealing the safety mailer so much that I couldn't use it again. Matter fact, I have used it already>>> If staples weren’t so expensive I wooda put 32 staples in it. It was used when I got it anyway.
<<<Hey Dog 'ole buddy, can I borrow a 10 spot, I'll pay ya back on Friday.>>> Same deal I make my men at work. $10 for $20.
<<<Hey dog....!!...Can I ride your bike...>>> Sure, but only the chopped 46 knuck with the SUICIDE setup.
All of the above are NOT negotiable.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i>...This will be my final post on this forum, i want to thank the forum for the freedom to express my opinions, and those of you who have been generous to me thank you they know who they are and for those who have been arses you also know who you are and I can live without you. >>
Somebody sent me a PM asking what "Cui prodest?" means. I had used that term in a differnt part of this thread. It is Latin and it means "Who will gain from this?" or in modern terms "Who will stand to gain [from this]?" That is the exact point I think you have made indirectly. Posting one's ideas in a Forum or a Blog or in a Communal Chat Area can be idle gossip, bragging, a search for people with whom you can compare views and improve both your knowledge and your ability to understand others. I really cannot see any of this in your posts for this thread. You have told us that you have achieved great results applying the bargaining techniques you have used in the real estate field. My profession has nothing to do with the Stock Market, Real Estate or, for that matter, collectibles. But I do respect the professionals I meet in different professions. I don't agree with Laura Sperber's (Legend) all encompassing blanket statements about what she calls "Wannabes" because she goes too far. Of course there will be some crooks, some fools, some barely competent dealers. And there will be more of the same among collectors. Does that mean that everybody must be classified using a negative? I don't think so. Just as happens in every other field there will be great people, so-so people and some people to whom I would not give the time of day. Realone, you did not start your thread basing yourself on the assumption that all men are not equal. They may be "created equal" but life, circumstances and experience will them form and forge them. In practice you brushed a lot of people the wrong way. You don't need to apply contrition to remedy. Just state your views in a civilized manner and give people the chance to counter what you are saying. That's called "dialogue" which is much more productive that your initial stance which I think can be safely called "monologue". Merry Christmas and/or Seasons Greetings to you and to all (just to make sure I have not left anybody out).
cho10
Collecting since the 1980's Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes - Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set - Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set Morgan Dollars Proof - Basic Set - Varieties Peace Circ.
Comments
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Yet another reason (and part of the root problem) why the coin market is NOT transparent and never will be as long as idiots think these (at least the price history) are secrets worth keeping.
> "...my main idea for writing is to have serious discussion "
------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and serious discussion is exactly what's been going
on here in two threads that were about the same thing.
The first thread has 33 replies, so far, and this one has 54.
I would say that there has been some serious discussion
going on.
If you go away, you go away. Nobody is going to submit
to your ideas just to humor you. You do have to have
some pretty thick skin to operate in a forum such as this.
Some people just aren't cut out for it.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Steve
You mean the guys that suck up to the toned coin dealers?
For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something.
<< <i>This will be my final post on this forum >>
Please don't leave. We need you here.
Russ, NCNE
Formatting: D
Content: B
Attitude: F+
I'm at a loss as to why a poster would stick around for 3 months and quit in a snit over nothing. I'm glad that I didn't come here with the hopes of being liked or my words fawned over.
To me this is a forum with great collective knowledge on the overall hobby of coin collecting. I learn something, read a few divergent opinions, laugh at smoe attitudes, and enjoy whatever time I spend here.
From the big time dealers through to the rankest wannabees, from master collectors to the newest of the newbies, I get smoething. The point is, although I get smoething from everyone, I don't value it all the same.
Thank God for the members who do stick around and participate - even if they take a few flaming arrows, they suck it up and carry on.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
a lot nicer. We just bite we don't irritate people.
Camelot
I completely agree!
<< <i>For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
I hear ya Dog!! Heh heh is that sarcastic? OK "Heh Heh" how bout that? Who cares? I agree.
<< <i>You can argue about a price. You can argue about poor quality... but you cant argue about the price of quality.
David >>
Heh--that's a good one.
Kinda reminds of the one....
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose---But you can't pick your friends nose
Let's say you are looking at a coin on a reputable national dealers website with whom you never previously conducted business. You like the coin and the price listed is $1,000. Are you to assume that this is the dealer's best price and either take it or leave it? What if you like said coin but to you it is only worth $900? You shouldn't ask because doing so would be rude, impolite or considered chiseling?
I'd really like to get some opinions on the exact scenario outlined above. I'm really not sure how to approach the situation, although I do have an idea.
I always thought that the sticker price wasn't the real price, if you get my drift. Sort of like when you go to the dealership to buy a car, the sticker price is only the starting point to get to the "deal" or agreed upon price.
Help educate a newbe!
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
<< <i>For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
Don't worry, Dog. No one here likes you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No. Contact the dealer, tell him you have an interest, tell him how and when you would pay, and tell him if you will need a return privilege. Then, ask if you can have a discount. Without being clear about the terms, don't be surprised if the answer is that the price is firm.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hey Dog 'ole buddy, can I borrow a 10 spot, I'll pay ya back on Friday.
Russ, NCNE
By the way, bears don't have friends,
we have snacks.
Camelot
<< <i>I see Realone is logged in.
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>I would be more interested in the dealers buy back rather than his cost. >>
Ah yes,..... the dealer buyback...now that is what should be discussed and negotiated before the purchase.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>You can argue about a price. You can argue about poor quality... but you cant argue about the price of quality.
David >>
Heh--that's a good one.
Kinda reminds of the one....
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose---But you can't pick your friends nose
Or how about this one " Price is an issue only in the absence of value".
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i><<
For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
Hey dog....!!...Can I ride your bike...
<<<Dog quote....
<< For the record I don't want anybody to like me cause friends are always wanting something. >>
I hear ya Dog!! Heh heh is that sarcastic? OK "Heh Heh" how bout that? Who cares? I agree.
Thanks again Dog.>>>
No, that wasn't being sarcastic.
Uhmmm...If I remember correctly, you were very difficult to negotiate with over that Binion Black Beauty you posted a few posts up. I have NEVER had anybody haggle me over the price of a free Morgan with free shipping. If I wasn't such a grumpy a$$hole I would have gave in & let you pay me for it.
<< <i> I have negotiated successfully (which means to me both sides are happy with the outcome) and purchased from: Anaconda, Carolina Coin, Gene L Henry, Richard Snow, Pinnacle, Wayne Herndon, Rogers Coins, Broward County Coins, Blue Moon Coins, and Northeast Numismatics and others that I can't recall at this time. >>
This is a LOT of coins to be buying for a relatively new collector. I hope you haven't been buying raw stuff. If you go hogwild and buy a lot of coins starting out, you're going to get stiffed some of the time. I say this from experience.
Anaconda...Pinnacle...Wayne Herndon....Blue Moon Coins!
I'm mostly in agreement with your point(s) but you manage to say it in a way that pisses people off. --Jerry
Edited after reading a little more to say "mostly". What the dealer/seller paid is irrelevant. So you buy a $300 coin for $50. What a rip, you suck, etc. Then are you limited to a 15% profit. The next 6 guys would get a rip under those rules....what if the dealer figures out he paid to much and is trying to unload at cost. Are you bound by "rules" to give him a profit?
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>This will be my final post on this forum >>
Please don't leave. We need you here.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree with Russ, probably not for the same reasons. I think Realone, you have interesting views on negotiation and I understand them and in some cases agree with them. As some others have pointed out, usually a dealer has a "best price" on a coin, and will offer that price to known good customers. These customers generally know they have been quoted the best price and will "play or pass" as they say. For an unknown customer, a dealer might not quote the best price, figuring to leave room for a counteroffer. As an example of how this logic works is: I quote a price of $550 on a coin. The collector counters with $500. I might say I have $500 in it which is why I'm quoting $550. Or I might take the $500 if I bought it for $400. Or, regardless of what I paid, I might say that other dealers have it for sale for $600 which is why I'm staying at the $550 number.
Hope this helps, and Realone, stay on the Forums, "What, me worry"
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Very interesting subject...maybe someone could shed some light on the following scenario:
Let's say you are looking at a coin on a reputable national dealers website with whom you never previously conducted business. You like the coin and the price listed is $1,000. Are you to assume that this is the dealer's best price and either take it or leave it? What if you like said coin but to you it is only worth $900? You shouldn't ask because doing so would be rude, impolite or considered chiseling?
I'd really like to get some opinions on the exact scenario outlined above. I'm really not sure how to approach the situation, although I do have an idea.
I always thought that the sticker price wasn't the real price, if you get my drift. Sort of like when you go to the dealership to buy a car, the sticker price is only the starting point to get to the "deal" or agreed upon price.
Help educate a newbe!
Sticker price CAN be a real price. Especially for new material that is 'hot'.
For the scenario you list.....my method has been:
* See price online with dealer I haven't worked with.
* Contact dealer and mention interest and if that is their "best price"
* If it is, and I like the coin, I get it.
* If I don't like the coin at that price and they don't come back lesser, I pass (I never downplay the coin to them as that, to me, would be rude)
* If I like the lesser price they come back with, I buy. If not, I pass (see above)
If the coin is "cheap" anyway, like $50 or under, I don't bother unless I am getting a bunch of coins and ask if there is any "bulk discount"....and, I ask tongue-in-cheek.
If the dealer treats me well (even if no discount but I am treated well), they have a future cstomer.
If they are rude or ignore me....well, I don't need them anyway
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I recently contacted a dealer (forum member who will likely read this) about a coin I'm interested in but thought the price was too high. They responded that grey sheet pricing is often wrong for high demand coins like this (an early half) and their belief that their price is fair and appropriate. I also found another similar coin at another dealer with a similar asked price. I am now thinking about it and will probalby send back a note with my best offer. I will make my offer first to the dealer whose coin I found first, partly because I like their coin and their reputation better and partly because that seems fair. I'm sure they won't be offended and will be glad to either accept or decline. There is no problem in my mind to have honorable discourse concerning price in an attempt to make a deal.
As an ebay seller I am always eager to get offers and never offended by low offers.
--Jerry
No money in my pay pal account either ?
This sucks ! What did you guys do to him ?
I was all ready to negotiate
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>What I have seen so far from a great many posters on this forum is that nobody thinks one should negotiate for anything especially a coin. >>
Are you kidding? Not only do I haggle every single coin I buy outside of auction, I haggle for EVERYTHING else I can. I've even haggled at Walmart and Target and WON!
You guys even bum off people you don't like. Imagine that.
<<<And thanks for not sealing the safety mailer so much that I couldn't use it again. Matter fact, I have used it already>>>
If staples weren’t so expensive I wooda put 32 staples in it. It was used when I got it anyway.
<<<Hey Dog 'ole buddy, can I borrow a 10 spot, I'll pay ya back on Friday.>>>
Same deal I make my men at work. $10 for $20.
<<<Hey dog....!!...Can I ride your bike...>>>
Sure, but only the chopped 46 knuck with the SUICIDE setup.
All of the above are NOT negotiable.
<< <i>...This will be my final post on this forum, i want to thank the forum for the freedom to express my opinions, and those of you who have been generous to me thank you they know who they are and for those who have been arses you also know who you are and I can live without you. >>
Somebody sent me a PM asking what "Cui prodest?" means. I had used that term in a differnt part of this thread.
It is Latin and it means "Who will gain from this?" or in modern terms "Who will stand to gain [from this]?"
That is the exact point I think you have made indirectly. Posting one's ideas in a Forum or a Blog or in a Communal Chat Area can be idle gossip, bragging, a search for people with whom you can compare views and improve both your knowledge and your ability to understand others.
I really cannot see any of this in your posts for this thread. You have told us that you have achieved great results applying the bargaining techniques you have used in the real estate field. My profession has nothing to do with the Stock Market, Real Estate or, for that matter, collectibles. But I do respect the professionals I meet in different professions. I don't agree with Laura Sperber's (Legend) all encompassing blanket statements about what she calls "Wannabes" because she goes too far. Of course there will be some crooks, some fools, some barely competent dealers. And there will be more of the same among collectors. Does that mean that everybody must be classified using a negative? I don't think so. Just as happens in every other field there will be great people, so-so people and some people to whom I would not give the time of day.
Realone, you did not start your thread basing yourself on the assumption that all men are not equal. They may be "created equal" but life, circumstances and experience will them form and forge them.
In practice you brushed a lot of people the wrong way. You don't need to apply contrition to remedy. Just state your views in a civilized manner and give people the chance to counter what you are saying. That's called "dialogue" which is much more productive that your initial stance which I think can be safely called "monologue".
Merry Christmas and/or Seasons Greetings to you and to all (just to make sure I have not left anybody out).
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.