<< <i>+1 for Jason's comment. Neither can hold a candle to Faulk....he was a deadly machine. Could do it all.
For me the HOF is about looking back and saying Damm that guy was good...he dominated a game and a major reason his team had success.
I know both Bettis and Martin will get in but I can't say that about those two. Don't get me wrong they were very good. If we start to compare them vs Payton, brown or Sayers then they really get lost in the sauce.
I would actually like to see Terrell Davis get in before those two. A carear cut short...but he was definately better than them. >>
>>
well then sterling sharpe should be in ahead of cris carter too. he along with rice were the two dominant WR's from 90-94. >>
Sterling Sharpe was an NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP? He had 2,000 yards receiving in a year?
What I miss????????????????? lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>It's too bad about Sharpe with the neck injury, I believe if he would have stayed healty he would of put up some crazy numbers. He was a gamer!
Doc >>
Definitely agree with that. He was a top notch WR. 4-5 more monster Pro Bowl type years and he could be right there with Carter.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!! Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here. Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall. Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ). I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin. To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls. After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection. I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!! Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here. Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall. Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ). I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin. To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls. After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection. I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated. Rocke >>
I, too, think the Hall has turned into the HOVG. With those parameters now in place, Bettis (and Martin) will get in since they were both 'very good'.
<< <i>+1 for Jason's comment. Neither can hold a candle to Faulk....he was a deadly machine. Could do it all.
For me the HOF is about looking back and saying Damm that guy was good...he dominated a game and a major reason his team had success.
I know both Bettis and Martin will get in but I can't say that about those two. Don't get me wrong they were very good. If we start to compare them vs Payton, brown or Sayers then they really get lost in the sauce.
I would actually like to see Terrell Davis get in before those two. A carear cut short...but he was definately better than them. >>
>>
well then sterling sharpe should be in ahead of cris carter too. he along with rice were the two dominant WR's from 90-94. >>
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Martin out rushed Bettis and has more total TD's. In four less post-season games Martin has more rushing yards, receiving yards, and only 1 less TD than Bettis.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!! Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here. Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall. Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ). I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin. To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls. After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection. I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated. Rocke >>
I, too, think the Hall has turned into the HOVG. With those parameters now in place, Bettis (and Martin) will get in since they were both 'very good'. >>
Both were great players but over shadowed at times during their careers by guys like Davis, Faulk, LT, Sanders, and Smith.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
No chance for Sharpe/50/50 for TD. If I were ranking the WR and RB modern candidates (both currently eligible and retired but not yet eligible)..Not just based on my opinion, but also the opinion of the HOF voters it would look something like this:
RB Top 10: Marshall Faulk Curtis Martin Jerome Bettis Roger Craig Terrell Davis Tiki Barber Ricky Watters Corey Dillon Brian Mitchell Warrick Dunn
Tiki Barber down has literally has no chance. Faulk is the lock this year. Bettis and Martin will get in within the next 3-4 years (my guess both in 2012 due to a weak class). Craig and TD are the bubble guys. Craig has gotten the bigger push recently and is only eliglble for 7 more years...I think he's a 50/50 shot and his best chance will be in the last couple of years of his candidacy..2016-2018...TD is eligible until 2026. Other than Tomlinson and James, there really are no other new RB candidates for quite a few years...Once the guys above him go in, and TD is the best RB of the group he will have his best shot...
WR Top 10: Andre Reed Cris Carter Marvin Harrison Tim Brown Torry Holt Isaac Bruce Jimmy Smith Rod Smith Henry Ellard Sterling Sharpe
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
No chance for Sharpe/50/50 for TD. If I were ranking the WR and RB modern candidates (both currently eligible and retired but not yet eligible)..Not just based on my opinion, but also the opinion of the HOF voters it would look something like this:
RB Top 10: Marshall Faulk Curtis Martin Jerome Bettis Roger Craig Terrell Davis Tiki Barber Ricky Watters Corey Dillon Brian Mitchell Warrick Dunn
Tiki Barber down has literally has no chance. Faulk is the lock this year. Bettis and Martin will get in within the next 3-4 years (my guess both in 2012 due to a weak class). Craig and TD are the bubble guys. Craig has gotten the bigger push recently and is only eliglble for 7 more years...I think he's a 50/50 shot and his best chance will be in the last couple of years of his candidacy..2016-2018...TD is eligible until 2026. Other than Tomlinson and James, there really are no other new RB candidates for quite a few years...Once the guys above him go in, and TD is the best RB of the group he will have his best shot...
WR Top 10: Andre Reed Cris Carter Marvin Harrison Tim Brown Torry Holt Isaac Bruce Jimmy Smith Rod Smith Henry Ellard Sterling Sharpe
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason >>
I like you last point and it perfectly describes some guys that have been and will be left out of the HOF.
When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams. >>
No chance. He was the Ricky Watters of his day...Plus, he was no friend of the media, who is doing the voting.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams. >>
Agreed. Had he been on a good team for most of his career he'd probably be a no-brainer HOF'er. The 1,600+ yards he ran for his first year in New England attest to that. For a lot of these guys it's just luck of the draw in the NFL draft.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I have a quick HOF question regarding the senior candidates. With it now down to two, Richter and Hanburger, does that mean one will automatically be inducted or can both still NOT get in? Also, who is the favorite to go in, one or both?
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason >>
I agree with many of your comments on Sharpe. However have to disagree with the point that he was possession WR. For comparasion here are Carter vs Sharpe career numbers.
Carter Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Career 234 209 1101 13899 12.6 130 80 4.7 59.4
Sharper Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Career 112 112 595 8134 13.7 65 79 5.3 72.6
Sharper caught on average one a 1/2 pass more per game that Carter but gained nearly 20 more yards per game on that 1/2 catch. If Sharpe would have played at least 3-4 more years with Favre as his QB in GB I would have to think that his career yards number would nearly equal Carters. Yet Carter played another 7 years.
In Sharpes 7 years he made the ProBowl 5 times, was a 1st team all pro 3 times and a 2nd team 2 times. Overall Carter was a 8 time probowler, 2 1st team and 2 2nd team All pro's in 14 years.
Comparing the two to Rice over the same seasons 88-94, Rice was a 7 time ProBowler, 6 1st team and 1 2nd Team all pro. During that time Carter had 2 Probowls and 1 1st team All Pro.
Considering Carter was a few years (2-3) older than Sharpe its hard to think that Sharpe's production would have gone down with another 3-4 years, when Favre was putting up 3 straight MVP seasons.
But I still agree there is no chance he sniffs the HOF. The HOF thrives on long careers as much as anything else. Cause you need a long career to get to the numbers that are needed to get the votes to be in the HOF.
Clearly, Davis has the the edge on the two with the other awards: two SB's (main reason that Elway ever won one period), SB MVP, Season MVP.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I have a quick HOF question regarding the senior candidates. With it now down to two, Richter and Hanburger, does that mean one will automatically be inducted or can both still NOT get in? Also, who is the favorite to go in, one or both?
Thanks, Doc >>
Doc, neither could get in. It is very possible that if the voters can't agree on one over the other that they will end up giving neither 80% of the vote for induction.
My FEELING is that one will go in. I know for a fact that it was a conscious decision to put up two LBs together. They wanted to cut down the backlog at LB, which is the deepest position of candidates in the Senior pool. And by doing so it increases the odds that at least one will get in..But makes it less likely that both go in...These 2 are going to be compared to each other, either consciously or subconsciously.
I have a personal favorite which is Hanburger, but I have heard more than a couple of voters championing Richter. Its really a crap shoot this year. If I were a betting man, my money would be on 1 selection and on Hanburger...But again, this would be on a roll of the dice.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with many of your comments on Sharpe. However have to disagree with the point that he was possession WR. >>
Many of his 13.7 yards per game were yards after catch. One of his best traits (as I'm sure you are aware since you watched him) was his toughness and ability to break tackles...He was NOT a speed guy. Most of his catches were short hooks and slants. He was used a lot like his brother Shannon. He just lined up outside more often.
I agree, during the years Carter and Sharpe played in the league together Sharpe was the better, more dominant player. But he wasn't spectacular. He wasn't doing it Michael Irvin style, and he didn't play long enough or have any signature moments. Had he played 5 more years I think he surely would have at LEAST been in the HOF conversation.
Let's look at the All-Pro WRs during Sharpe's career from 1988-1994:
Jerry Rice-6 Sterling Sharpe-3 Henry Ellard-1 Andre Rison-1 Michael Irvin-1 Haywood Jeffries-1 Cris Carter-1
Sharpe was a BEAST for 7 years, but injuries took him down before he could get those MVPs or Super Bowl rings he would need for someone with such a short career at WR.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have a quick HOF question regarding the senior candidates. With it now down to two, Richter and Hanburger, does that mean one will automatically be inducted or can both still NOT get in? Also, who is the favorite to go in, one or both?
Thanks, Doc >>
Hello Doc, to put it simply, could be one, could be both, could be neither. We'll find out Saturday. Who is the favorite ? VEEERRRYYY close call. Chris Hanburger : 14 years, 9 Pro Bowls, 4x 1st team All-Pro, 2x 2nd team All-Pro, 17 fumble recoveries, 19 Interceptions, 1972 NFL defensive player of the year Les Richter ..........: 9 years, 8 Pro Bowls, 2x 1st team All-Pro, 3x 2nd team All Pro, 12 fumble recoveries, 16 Interceptions. Plus his place kicking stats, but he obviously will be considered on his defensive play, not his placekicking, but, then again, I'm sure that doesn't HURT his chances. Will be interesting, I for one, will be surprised if only one gets in. If it is only one, I feel safe to say it will be Chris ( who I am openly rooting for, since I had him over to my house to see some of my collection this past October ) , but I feel that BOTH deserve it, and hope that both get elected.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
He was more dynamic then most remember him. The game winning TD in Detroit was 40+ yards with little after the catch. There were others like that but he did make a lot of yards after the catch but even more so after contact.
Agree completely. Thats why i said another 4 to 5 years with Favre in GB probably would have done it. I think they would have won a SB with Sharpe like they did without him. He would have had one ring plus the padded stats.
But if if's and buts were candy and nuts.
Jay
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
If I had a vote, I would put Sharpe in the HOF. He was truly dominant. I wouldn't want to keep him out because he suffered a career-ending injury. I wonder how many three-time first-team All Pro WRs who are already eligible are not enshrined. If there are any others, it can't be many.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i> I wonder how many three-time first-team All Pro WRs who are already eligible are not enshrined. If there are any others, it can't be many. >>
Lavvie Dilweg (6 times) Del Shofner (5 times) Ray Flaherty (4 times) Herman Moore Sterling Sharpe Drew Pearson Cliff Branch Otis Taylor Mac Speedie
Not all that rare really...
There are only 6 WR's IN the HOF with 3 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections...Actually more NOT in with 3 than are in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Otis Taylor will be the next WR to come out of the senior pool as a HOF finalist.
You heard it here first...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Chris Hanburger gets in, I will offer you a virtual high five. I brought up his name a couple of years ago and you have always been in his corner. In my (admittedly biased) opinion, the Allen-era Redskins are underrepresented. His election would be a big step in rectifying that.
<< <i> I wonder how many three-time first-team All Pro WRs who are already eligible are not enshrined. If there are any others, it can't be many. >>
Lavvie Dilweg (6 times) Del Shofner (5 times) Ray Flaherty (4 times) Herman Moore Sterling Sharpe Drew Pearson Cliff Branch Otis Taylor Mac Speedie
Not all that rare really...
There are only 6 WR's IN the HOF with 3 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections...Actually more NOT in with 3 than are in...
Jason >>
I was going to post this some time ago but I figured I would be call a homer. But 6 first team All-Pro's and you are not in? Dilweg was amazing with the little bit of video I have seen. And by little bit I am talking about two dozen plays at the Packer Hall of Fame. I am sure there is a lot more about him but I was just floored by 6 first teams and nuthin' not a sniff in the past few years. But there really is no card for him for our sets any how.
I was going to post this some time ago but I figured I would be call a homer. But 6 first team All-Pro's and you are not in? Dilweg was amazing with the little bit of video I have seen. And by little bit I am talking about two dozen plays at the Packer Hall of Fame. I am sure there is a lot more about him but I was just floored by 6 first teams and nuthin' not a sniff in the past few years. But there really is no card for him for our sets any how. >>
after watching parts of that "pro" bowl "game" i think pro-bowl awards should be reconsidered. i dont think anyone that played in this years "game" deserves as much credit to their HOF resume. at least the steelers and packers wont have to be apart of that waste of time.
jason i hope it was as bad in person as it looked on tv.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Pro Bowl never was and never will be anything more than an exhibition. Understanding that going in makes it a much easier watch. Game was fun, saw some crazy plays lots of scoring...Had great seats, 35 yard line, 10 rows up...No one is going to play all out and risk injury in what amounts to a scrimmage...lol
So if you are watching to see a typical fight to the death type game, you are watching for the wrong reasons....
I heard a great idea mentioned this past week, and that was to replace the Pro Bowl game with a rookies vs. sophomores game..Now, it would still be an exhibition..Who would be willing to risk millions of dollars for a meaningless game? But there might be a little more fire for players with something to prove...Peyton Manning and Ray Lewis were in Hawaii to have fun, not to go for the jugular. Whats funny is 12 million + watched it on TV! Highest ratings in like 10 years...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Guys, let's be honest, the Pro Bowl will never be the Super Bowl and wasn't meant to be. It's entertainment and I for one was entertained!! The players get a free trip to Hawaii with their families and the crowd get's to see a lot of scoring, what's wrong with that. Fans LOVE touchdowns. If the final score was 10-3 I doubt very much Fox would have gotten the ratings it did.
from what i remember from older probowls there seemed to have been a little more effort put in than what i saw this year. not to say that the level of effort was near even a preseason game before.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>from what i remember from older probowls there seemed to have been a little more effort put in than what i saw this year. not to say that the level of effort was near even a preseason game before. >>
I've been watching and attending Pro Bowls since 1998. So unless you are talking about BEFORE 1998, then I think you are mistaken. I mean they have RULES that prevent them from doing zone coverage or blitzes...I don't even remember ever seeing a sack in the Pro Bowl...lol It is an exhibition. I had a great time at the game, and all the festivities during the week in Hawaii are 10000 times better than when they had it in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. The players can literally walk the streets here in Hawaii without getting hounded. The block party we had here the night before the game was top notch. 20+ players were hanging out and mingling with the crowd, having a beer. It's a really relaxed atmosphere and it is reflected in the game.
The funniest thing this year was the Belichick was actually making the AFC practice...And the result was a first half blowout...lol
I worked as a volunteer for many of the events (through the military). Got to talk to and hang with a variety of the players. Here are the top 5 guys who by my account, my opinion are not only great football players, but just great guys. 1- Peyton Manning...Most popular player is also the most easy going and friendly 2- Drew Brees...Guy did more charity events here than he did football events 3- Adrian Peterson...Super nice and humble guy 4- Ray Lewis...Always smiling and laughing..VERY approachable and cordial..Yes Maam, yes sir kinda guy 5- Reggie Wayne...Laid back, very cool cat
And here are the duds...or a-holes. At least when they were here.. 1-Philip Rivers...The guy you see on Sundays being an a-- is the real deal. Its not an act. Peyton-Rivers. Night-day personality wise 2-John Abraham...coc-kiest player at the Pro Bowl..BY FAR..Doesn't like being near or around fans..He even dissed the diehard Falcons fans that flew here to see them! 3-Jamal Charles...For a first time Pro Bowler he didnt seem to appreciative of being here...Booze and chicks were all he was thinking about (can't really blame him at his age I guess..lol) 4-Julius Peppers..Mini version of Abraham personality wise 5-Michael Vick..Figured he would be on his redemption tour...Only saw him at one charity event. Never saw him interact with anyone else other than TV Cameras and other players
I didn't get to interact with everyone, but probably 75%. And really almost all of them were cool cats. I could probably add 20 more to the Good guy list with ease, can't really think of any others for the dud list. Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was only able to see 1/2 the pro bowl game. It did seem a little "light" for a game. However I take it what it is...an exhibition. Enjoyed it just the same. Hockey all star game is the same way. I do remeber seeing some pro bowls in the early 90's that were more like games. I was talking to a good friend the other day who has had a child at Bostons children's hospital many many times over the past 4 years. The staff there (2nd hand talk here) said belicheck and brady are major A-holes and couldn't say enough good things about many others. I mean very sick children ...I can't think of a better cause.
I'm just taking off from Jason's comment about good vs bad guys. I just wish these guys would just stop and think what role models we make them into and thank all of us 'little' people who support the entire league and players with our purchases of tickets, endorsed apparal, TV contracts, ect....
I would like to know whos auto Jason got and his best story from meeting the players. I would have loved to be there.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i> I would like to know whos auto Jason got and his best story from meeting the players. I would have loved to be there. >>
Got a bunch of autos on a Pro Bowl helmet, mostly the guys I mentioned as good guys, who for the most part signed everything for everyone. Brees, Peterson, Manning, Ray Lewis, Tony Gonzalez.
Best story I would say there are two.
Adrian Peterson I met at the first practice on Wednesday. He had just completed an interview on NFL network and asked what branch of military I was in and how long I had been in Hawaii. Of course, I told him I had just moved from Dallas, TX (he's from the DFW area) and we had about a 5 minute conversation about everything he's got going on during Super Bowl week. Some of the charity stuff he's doing, etc. Just a real down to earth regular guy.
The other would be meeting Jaguars Special Teams rep. Montell Owens..Funny because when I met him, he was in street clothes and I didn't have a clue who he was..lol..I was wearing a polo with Jaguars logo and he asked if I was a Jaguars staff member...When I told him no, just a fan, and that Jacksonville is my hometown he started laughing and said that he played for them..I was like "Really, when?"..He said he was representing them in the Pro Bowl..Thats when I put 2-and-2 together and realized who he was..I mean guy is like 5'9", 190. Way smaller than me...I guess the shocked look on my face said it all. I said "guess that doesn't make me much of a fan, huh?"..He just said "don;t worry about it, we all look the same with helmets on..lol".
He is actually staying in hawaii an extra week on his honeymoon, so I gave him some info on the best whale watching dinner cruise to go on. Like Peterson, just a good natured guy.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
having watched the probowl since the early 80's i seem to remember them being a little more of a game than this. but then maybe i am just getting too old. soon i might start quoting childhood prices like my dad does....you know a pack of cards use be a quarter!?!?!
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>having watched the probowl since the early 80's i seem to remember them being a little more of a game than this. but then maybe i am just getting too old. soon i might start quoting childhood prices like my dad does....you know a pack of cards use be a quarter!?!?! >>
Yeah that was probably BEFORE some player blew out their knee playing hard in a meaningless exhibition. lol...Same with pre-season games. Guys used to have to actually play in them. Nowadays, the stars usually end up with about 4 total quarters of pre-season action in 4 games. It's a rough sport, and the worst possible scenario would be a bad injury for nothing....
If anyone is watching the Pro Bowl to see the NFC and AFC battle to the death, don't even tune in...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper. >>
I remember you saying in this thread a couple years ago that Peyton Manning had no people skills. Is he a changed man now, or did you mis-speak then?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper. >>
I remember you saying in this thread a couple years ago that Peyton Manning had no people skills. Is he a changed man now, or did you mis-speak then? >>
Last time I interacted with Peyton Manning was 2000. He is definitely WAY DIFFERENT now than he was then. I'd really like to see where I said that though, cause I certainly don't remember saying that specifically. I may have called him a dufus or a bumpkin, because well he kinda still is. But I never once said he had no people skills. He's always been super nice to fans.
Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth.
Thanks, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks, Jason >>
I'm not gonna spend hours going through this thread to prove a point, but I remember you said (wrote) it. It was in response to someone writing something similar about Manning. I'm glad to hear he's a different guy now.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks, Jason >>
I'm not gonna spend hours going through this thread to prove a point, but I remember you said (wrote) it. It was in response to someone writing something similar about Manning. I'm glad to hear he's a different guy now. >>
Yeah, that's what I thought...
Sorry, but your memory must be failing. Never once did I say Manning "had no people skills". Not once, not ever.
He came off more as a bumbling idiot back then, and still does a little. Back then he was more reserved, now he's more "life of the party" kinda guy. But always been super nice to the fans..What you are assuming makes no sense. As I watched him 10 years ago stay late and sign autographs for every person who wanted one, pretty sure I would have stated that here as well if we were talking Manning personality for some reason...Now he's a 4 time MVP and Super Bowl winner and still signs everything.
I may stay up late and find this post, just to serve you some crow for coming in here out of nowhere to try and call me a liar.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Well, guess this kinda shoots your "couple of years" thing out of the water...
Tuesday December 04, 2007 11:50 AM
Josh,
I witnessed both of these guys auto habits when I worked security at the Pro Bowl a few years back when I was in Hawaii..1999 I think...
Steve Young signed occasionally. Meaning he was selective. He did sign, but not for every person.
I didn't see Emmitt sign anything. In fact he avoided the auto seekers. He was with Deion Sanders and they wouldn't even look at the autograph hounds no matter who was screaming there names (to include young kids).
Peyton manning came in 2000 and I swear he signed everything for everyone. Randy Moss was the worst. He was the only guy I saw actually being rude to people asking for his autograph.
Of course these were all a few years ago, people can change...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
T minus 2 days and counting until the new class is announced...
Here's my guess as to how it will play out:
Sanders Faulk Sabol (WAY overdue) Bettis (Only because the Steelers are in the Super Bowl - I think Martin is more deserving) Dent Hanburger Richter
If I had it my way though, this is who I'd put in:
Sanders Faulk Sabol Carter (Because he should have been first ballot) Sharpe (Ditto) Hanburger Richter
I still feel very strongly that contributors and coaches should be voted on in a separate election, a la baseball. It's not fair to anyone to weigh the worthiness of a player vs. an administrator.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
HOFers: Deion Sanders Marshall Faulk Ed Sabol Shannon Sharpe Richard Dent Chris Hanburger
Making the cut from 15 to 10: Willie Roaf Dermontti Dawson Curtis Martin Jerome Bettis Andre Reed
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Do you guys believe Hanburger is a "lock" to get in?
Doc >>
No Senior candidate will be or can ever be considered a LOCK...All have been bypassed for at least 25 years on getting in...They are always longshots.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What do you think of their chances % wise for Hanburger & Richter?
Thanks, Doc >>
Hanburger 60% Richter 40%
Its really going to be a crap shoot between the Seniors this year...There are groups of voters who favor one or the other. The comparisons are going to be made because they played the same position. If the committee is feeling really generous that day both could go in..If the moods are bad, a couple of hardcore detractors or arguements against them could knock both out...
Let's hope the weather improves before the vote..lol..Sounds petty, but there as many fickle idiots on that committee these days as there are hardcore football guys who take ithe process seriously.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>+1 for Jason's comment.
Neither can hold a candle to Faulk....he was a deadly machine. Could do it all.
For me the HOF is about looking back and saying Damm that guy was good...he dominated a game and a major reason his team had success.
I know both Bettis and Martin will get in but I can't say that about those two. Don't get me wrong they were very good. If we start to compare them vs Payton, brown or Sayers then
they really get lost in the sauce.
I would actually like to see Terrell Davis get in before those two. A carear cut short...but he was definately better than them. >>
well then sterling sharpe should be in ahead of cris carter too. he along with rice were the two dominant WR's from 90-94. >>
Sterling Sharpe was an NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP? He had 2,000 yards receiving in a year?
What I miss????????????????? lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
<< <i>It's too bad about Sharpe with the neck injury, I believe if he would have stayed healty he would of put up some crazy numbers. He was a gamer!
Doc >>
Definitely agree with that. He was a top notch WR. 4-5 more monster Pro Bowl type years and he could be right there with Carter.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!!
Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here.
Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall.
Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ).
I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin.
To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls.
After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise.
BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection.
I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated.
Rocke
<< <i>
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!!
Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here.
Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall.
Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ).
I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin.
To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls.
After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise.
BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection.
I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated.
Rocke >>
I, too, think the Hall has turned into the HOVG. With those parameters now in place, Bettis (and Martin) will get in since they were both 'very good'.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>+1 for Jason's comment.
Neither can hold a candle to Faulk....he was a deadly machine. Could do it all.
For me the HOF is about looking back and saying Damm that guy was good...he dominated a game and a major reason his team had success.
I know both Bettis and Martin will get in but I can't say that about those two. Don't get me wrong they were very good. If we start to compare them vs Payton, brown or Sayers then
they really get lost in the sauce.
I would actually like to see Terrell Davis get in before those two. A carear cut short...but he was definately better than them. >>
well then sterling sharpe should be in ahead of cris carter too. he along with rice were the two dominant WR's from 90-94. >>
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Martin out rushed Bettis and has more total TD's. In four less post-season games Martin has more rushing yards, receiving yards, and only 1 less TD than Bettis.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Everybody has made valid points on why Bettis should/shouldn't get in (except Cleveland Brown guy who is just jealous because the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown), but no one can still make a great argument on the plus side for Curtis Martin. I guess he was the Cris Carter of running backs. >>
Damn, you are TOO FUNNY !!!!
Are you smoking crack again ? Yes, others have made valid points on whether Jerome should/shouldn't be in. Granted, my point wasn't ORIGINAL, as it was written by Brad Oremland from Sports-Central, but the article he wrote, to the best of my knowledge, had NOT been presented here before, and in my opinion, Brad made MANY good and valid points as to why Jerome should NOT be elected to The Hall, and I just wanted to share that article with everyone here.
Some have made the previous statements that with the election of certain men, that it is becoming a Hall Of The Very Good ( HOTVG ) and is no longer a Hall of Fame. Believe me, living in Canton for over 50 years, I know my share ( and then some ) of VERY hard core Hall of Fame collectors that live here. I have had MANY discusions/debates as to whether this guy or that guy does/does not belong in The Hall.
Itzagoner previously posted that he thought the list of seventeen finalists made for a very weak list, and would therefore make this a very weak Hall of Fame class. I STRONGLY disagreed, and said I could make a valid arguement for almost every one of the finalists to be elected. I personally, would have a tough time making the valid arguement for Bettis. TRUST ME, I know the stats for 13,662 , 6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team All-Pro , 1x 2nd team All Pro, 91 rushing TD's. SO WHAT !!! I could give you a LOOONNNGGG list of guys that went to MORE Pro bowls, were 1st team All Pro more than twice, were 1st OR 2nd team All Pro more than 3 total times, were NFL MVP's ( which Jerome never was ) or were ALL DECADE players ( which Jerome never was ).
I would probably have the toughest time making the arguement FOR Bettis, but it would be only a LITTLE easier for me to make the arguement FOR Martin.
To say that the Browns haven't had a great back since Jim Brown is also a stretch. You have to realize first of all, that every running back, from now until the end of time, that has ANY modicum of success in Cleveland is compared to the GREATEST player in the history of the league. Those ARE some pretty big shoes to fill. But I would argue that Leroy Kelly was MORE than "pretty good" He was, after all #4 on the all-time rushing list at the time of his retirement. Earnest Byner was #16 all-time at the time of his retirement, had over 13,400 total yards, scored 72 TD's and went to 2 pro bowls. If not for the fumble in the AFC championship game, and Modell wanting to run him out of town, he would have finished his career as a Brown, instead of helping the Redskins to win a SuperBowl and becoming one of the 70 Greatest Redskins. Kevin Mack also ran for over 5,100 yards, scored 46 Td's, and also went to two Pro bowls.
After Leroy Kelly, have we had anyone as good as Bettis. A resounding NO. I know that. I would be an idiot to try to argue otherwise. Have the Browns been the Steelers whipping boy for most ( but not all ) of the last 35 years. Unfortunately, they have been. Again, I know that, and am not going to argue otherwise.
BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I look at The Browns/Steelers in a TOTALLY different light, than I look at The Hall of Fame. I collect things Hall of Fame IRREGARDLESS as to team. One of the absolute bigest PRIZES of my collection is my Walt Kiesling autograph , on Pittsburgh Steeler letterhead with the original mailing envelope from 1940. I consider it a cornerstone of my collection.
I'll tell you one thing, I REALLY wish I could be in that conference room in Dallas next Saturday, when the merits of The Bus, and the other 16 are debated.
Rocke >>
I, too, think the Hall has turned into the HOVG. With those parameters now in place, Bettis (and Martin) will get in since they were both 'very good'. >>
Both were great players but over shadowed at times during their careers by guys like Davis, Faulk, LT, Sanders, and Smith.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
No chance for Sharpe/50/50 for TD. If I were ranking the WR and RB modern candidates (both currently eligible and retired but not yet eligible)..Not just based on my opinion, but also the opinion of the HOF voters it would look something like this:
RB Top 10:
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Jerome Bettis
Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Tiki Barber
Ricky Watters
Corey Dillon
Brian Mitchell
Warrick Dunn
Tiki Barber down has literally has no chance. Faulk is the lock this year. Bettis and Martin will get in within the next 3-4 years (my guess both in 2012 due to a weak class). Craig and TD are the bubble guys. Craig has gotten the bigger push recently and is only eliglble for 7 more years...I think he's a 50/50 shot and his best chance will be in the last couple of years of his candidacy..2016-2018...TD is eligible until 2026. Other than Tomlinson and James, there really are no other new RB candidates for quite a few years...Once the guys above him go in, and TD is the best RB of the group he will have his best shot...
WR Top 10:
Andre Reed
Cris Carter
Marvin Harrison
Tim Brown
Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Jimmy Smith
Rod Smith
Henry Ellard
Sterling Sharpe
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
No chance for Sharpe/50/50 for TD. If I were ranking the WR and RB modern candidates (both currently eligible and retired but not yet eligible)..Not just based on my opinion, but also the opinion of the HOF voters it would look something like this:
RB Top 10:
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Jerome Bettis
Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Tiki Barber
Ricky Watters
Corey Dillon
Brian Mitchell
Warrick Dunn
Tiki Barber down has literally has no chance. Faulk is the lock this year. Bettis and Martin will get in within the next 3-4 years (my guess both in 2012 due to a weak class). Craig and TD are the bubble guys. Craig has gotten the bigger push recently and is only eliglble for 7 more years...I think he's a 50/50 shot and his best chance will be in the last couple of years of his candidacy..2016-2018...TD is eligible until 2026. Other than Tomlinson and James, there really are no other new RB candidates for quite a few years...Once the guys above him go in, and TD is the best RB of the group he will have his best shot...
WR Top 10:
Andre Reed
Cris Carter
Marvin Harrison
Tim Brown
Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Jimmy Smith
Rod Smith
Henry Ellard
Sterling Sharpe
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason >>
I like you last point and it perfectly describes some guys that have been and will be left out of the HOF.
When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams. >>
No chance. He was the Ricky Watters of his day...Plus, he was no friend of the media, who is doing the voting.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>When Dillon becomes eligible I hope the voters take a deeper look at his career b/c I have always felt like he did well on some terrible teams. >>
Agreed. Had he been on a good team for most of his career he'd probably be a no-brainer HOF'er. The 1,600+ yards he ran for his first year in New England attest to that. For a lot of these guys it's just luck of the draw in the NFL draft.
Thanks,
Doc
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'd would love to see Sharpe and Davis get inducted to the HOF. Both had brilliant yet short careers due to injury. >>
Here you have no locks. Reed, Carter, Harrison and Brown will all get in eventually. Holt and Bruce are 50/50 guys, and will have to wait some years but should at some point get in. Jimmy Smith and Rod Smith are a notch lower than Holt/Bruce. Both are long shots to get in, especially with active guys like TO, Moss, Hines, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald all most likely surpassing these guys on this list once they retire. Ellard and Sharpe are polar opposites, but end up in the same category. Ellard played forever, put up some great numbers for the time, was a big play guy, but was never dominant. Sharpe WAS dominant..But didnt finish with great numbers, didn't play many years, and was a possession WR...Neither of these guys have any shot.
When Reed and Carter are taking this long to get in, you can forget Sharpe, who's eligibility runs out in 2019. In fact, Sharpe will never make the top 25, and will never get serious consideration as a Senior candidate. There are just too many WR's who were just as good or batter, and who did it longer and more spectacularly in big games....Just the facts...He can be a great former player without being a HOFer...
Jason >>
I agree with many of your comments on Sharpe. However have to disagree with the point that he was possession WR. For comparasion here are Carter vs Sharpe career numbers.
Carter
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G
Career 234 209 1101 13899 12.6 130 80 4.7 59.4
Sharper
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G
Career 112 112 595 8134 13.7 65 79 5.3 72.6
Sharper caught on average one a 1/2 pass more per game that Carter but gained nearly 20 more yards per game on that 1/2 catch. If Sharpe would have played at least 3-4 more years with Favre as his QB in GB I would have to think that his career yards number would nearly equal Carters. Yet Carter played another 7 years.
In Sharpes 7 years he made the ProBowl 5 times, was a 1st team all pro 3 times and a 2nd team 2 times. Overall Carter was a 8 time probowler, 2 1st team and 2 2nd team All pro's in 14 years.
Comparing the two to Rice over the same seasons 88-94, Rice was a 7 time ProBowler, 6 1st team and 1 2nd Team all pro. During that time Carter had 2 Probowls and 1 1st team All Pro.
Considering Carter was a few years (2-3) older than Sharpe its hard to think that Sharpe's production would have gone down with another 3-4 years, when Favre was putting up 3 straight MVP seasons.
But I still agree there is no chance he sniffs the HOF. The HOF thrives on long careers as much as anything else. Cause you need a long career to get to the numbers that are needed to get the votes to be in the HOF.
Clearly, Davis has the the edge on the two with the other awards: two SB's (main reason that Elway ever won one period), SB MVP, Season MVP.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>I have a quick HOF question regarding the senior candidates. With it now down to two, Richter and Hanburger, does that mean one will automatically be inducted or can both still NOT get in? Also, who is the favorite to go in, one or both?
Thanks,
Doc >>
Doc, neither could get in. It is very possible that if the voters can't agree on one over the other that they will end up giving neither 80% of the vote for induction.
My FEELING is that one will go in. I know for a fact that it was a conscious decision to put up two LBs together. They wanted to cut down the backlog at LB, which is the deepest position of candidates in the Senior pool. And by doing so it increases the odds that at least one will get in..But makes it less likely that both go in...These 2 are going to be compared to each other, either consciously or subconsciously.
I have a personal favorite which is Hanburger, but I have heard more than a couple of voters championing Richter. Its really a crap shoot this year. If I were a betting man, my money would be on 1 selection and on Hanburger...But again, this would be on a roll of the dice.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
I agree with many of your comments on Sharpe. However have to disagree with the point that he was possession WR. >>
Many of his 13.7 yards per game were yards after catch. One of his best traits (as I'm sure you are aware since you watched him) was his toughness and ability to break tackles...He was NOT a speed guy. Most of his catches were short hooks and slants. He was used a lot like his brother Shannon. He just lined up outside more often.
I agree, during the years Carter and Sharpe played in the league together Sharpe was the better, more dominant player. But he wasn't spectacular. He wasn't doing it Michael Irvin style, and he didn't play long enough or have any signature moments. Had he played 5 more years I think he surely would have at LEAST been in the HOF conversation.
Let's look at the All-Pro WRs during Sharpe's career from 1988-1994:
Jerry Rice-6
Sterling Sharpe-3
Henry Ellard-1
Andre Rison-1
Michael Irvin-1
Haywood Jeffries-1
Cris Carter-1
Sharpe was a BEAST for 7 years, but injuries took him down before he could get those MVPs or Super Bowl rings he would need for someone with such a short career at WR.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I have a quick HOF question regarding the senior candidates. With it now down to two, Richter and Hanburger, does that mean one will automatically be inducted or can both still NOT get in? Also, who is the favorite to go in, one or both?
Thanks,
Doc >>
Hello Doc, to put it simply, could be one, could be both, could be neither. We'll find out Saturday. Who is the favorite ? VEEERRRYYY close call.
Chris Hanburger : 14 years, 9 Pro Bowls, 4x 1st team All-Pro, 2x 2nd team All-Pro, 17 fumble recoveries, 19 Interceptions, 1972 NFL defensive player of the year
Les Richter ..........: 9 years, 8 Pro Bowls, 2x 1st team All-Pro, 3x 2nd team All Pro, 12 fumble recoveries, 16 Interceptions.
Plus his place kicking stats, but he obviously will be considered on his defensive play, not his placekicking, but, then again, I'm sure that doesn't HURT his chances.
Will be interesting, I for one, will be surprised if only one gets in. If it is only one, I feel safe to say it will be Chris ( who I am openly rooting for, since I had him over to my house to see some of my collection this past October ) , but I feel that BOTH deserve it, and hope that both get elected.
He was more dynamic then most remember him. The game winning TD in Detroit was 40+ yards with little after the catch. There were others like that but he did make a lot of yards after the catch but even more so after contact.
Agree completely. Thats why i said another 4 to 5 years with Favre in GB probably would have done it. I think they would have won a SB with Sharpe like they did without him. He would have had one ring plus the padded stats.
But if if's and buts were candy and nuts.
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i> I wonder how many three-time first-team All Pro WRs who are already eligible are not enshrined. If there are any others, it can't be many. >>
Lavvie Dilweg (6 times)
Del Shofner (5 times)
Ray Flaherty (4 times)
Herman Moore
Sterling Sharpe
Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor
Mac Speedie
Not all that rare really...
There are only 6 WR's IN the HOF with 3 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections...Actually more NOT in with 3 than are in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor >>
Three guys who have very good cases, IMHO.
<< <i>
<< <i>Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor >>
Three guys who have very good cases, IMHO. >>
Otis Taylor will be the next WR to come out of the senior pool as a HOF finalist.
You heard it here first...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If Chris Hanburger gets in, I will offer you a virtual high five. I brought up his name a couple of years ago and you have always been in his corner. In my (admittedly biased) opinion, the Allen-era Redskins are underrepresented. His election would be a big step in rectifying that.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor >>
Three guys who have very good cases, IMHO. >>
Otis Taylor will be the next WR to come out of the senior pool as a HOF finalist.
You heard it here first...lol >>
It ought to be Billy Howton. He retired as the all-time leader in catches and yards. How does that never rate being a finalist?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>
<< <i> I wonder how many three-time first-team All Pro WRs who are already eligible are not enshrined. If there are any others, it can't be many. >>
Lavvie Dilweg (6 times)
Del Shofner (5 times)
Ray Flaherty (4 times)
Herman Moore
Sterling Sharpe
Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor
Mac Speedie
Not all that rare really...
There are only 6 WR's IN the HOF with 3 or more 1st Team All-Pro selections...Actually more NOT in with 3 than are in...
Jason >>
I was going to post this some time ago but I figured I would be call a homer. But 6 first team All-Pro's and you are not in? Dilweg was amazing with the little bit of video I have seen. And by little bit I am talking about two dozen plays at the Packer Hall of Fame. I am sure there is a lot more about him but I was just floored by 6 first teams and nuthin' not a sniff in the past few years. But there really is no card for him for our sets any how.
<< <i>
I was going to post this some time ago but I figured I would be call a homer. But 6 first team All-Pro's and you are not in? Dilweg was amazing with the little bit of video I have seen. And by little bit I am talking about two dozen plays at the Packer Hall of Fame. I am sure there is a lot more about him but I was just floored by 6 first teams and nuthin' not a sniff in the past few years. But there really is no card for him for our sets any how. >>
homer.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Otis Taylor >>
Three guys who have very good cases, IMHO. >>
Otis Taylor will be the next WR to come out of the senior pool as a HOF finalist.
You heard it here first...lol >>
Last Oct at the Collectors Showcase signing, Mike Garret told me Otis Taylor is in poor health
jason i hope it was as bad in person as it looked on tv.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
So if you are watching to see a typical fight to the death type game, you are watching for the wrong reasons....
I heard a great idea mentioned this past week, and that was to replace the Pro Bowl game with a rookies vs. sophomores game..Now, it would still be an exhibition..Who would be willing to risk millions of dollars for a meaningless game? But there might be a little more fire for players with something to prove...Peyton Manning and Ray Lewis were in Hawaii to have fun, not to go for the jugular. Whats funny is 12 million + watched it on TV! Highest ratings in like 10 years...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
GO PACK!
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>from what i remember from older probowls there seemed to have been a little more effort put in than what i saw this year. not to say that the level of effort was near even a preseason game before. >>
I've been watching and attending Pro Bowls since 1998. So unless you are talking about BEFORE 1998, then I think you are mistaken. I mean they have RULES that prevent them from doing zone coverage or blitzes...I don't even remember ever seeing a sack in the Pro Bowl...lol It is an exhibition. I had a great time at the game, and all the festivities during the week in Hawaii are 10000 times better than when they had it in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. The players can literally walk the streets here in Hawaii without getting hounded. The block party we had here the night before the game was top notch. 20+ players were hanging out and mingling with the crowd, having a beer. It's a really relaxed atmosphere and it is reflected in the game.
The funniest thing this year was the Belichick was actually making the AFC practice...And the result was a first half blowout...lol
I worked as a volunteer for many of the events (through the military). Got to talk to and hang with a variety of the players. Here are the top 5 guys who by my account, my opinion are not only great football players, but just great guys.
1- Peyton Manning...Most popular player is also the most easy going and friendly
2- Drew Brees...Guy did more charity events here than he did football events
3- Adrian Peterson...Super nice and humble guy
4- Ray Lewis...Always smiling and laughing..VERY approachable and cordial..Yes Maam, yes sir kinda guy
5- Reggie Wayne...Laid back, very cool cat
And here are the duds...or a-holes. At least when they were here..
1-Philip Rivers...The guy you see on Sundays being an a-- is the real deal. Its not an act. Peyton-Rivers. Night-day personality wise
2-John Abraham...coc-kiest player at the Pro Bowl..BY FAR..Doesn't like being near or around fans..He even dissed the diehard Falcons fans that flew here to see them!
3-Jamal Charles...For a first time Pro Bowler he didnt seem to appreciative of being here...Booze and chicks were all he was thinking about (can't really blame him at his age I guess..lol)
4-Julius Peppers..Mini version of Abraham personality wise
5-Michael Vick..Figured he would be on his redemption tour...Only saw him at one charity event. Never saw him interact with anyone else other than TV Cameras and other players
I didn't get to interact with everyone, but probably 75%. And really almost all of them were cool cats. I could probably add 20 more to the Good guy list with ease, can't really think of any others for the dud list. Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hockey all star game is the same way. I do remeber seeing some pro bowls in the early 90's that were more like games.
I was talking to a good friend the other day who has had a child at Bostons children's hospital many many times over the past 4 years. The staff there (2nd hand talk here) said belicheck and brady are major A-holes and couldn't say enough good things about many others. I mean very sick children ...I can't think of a better cause.
I'm just taking off from Jason's comment about good vs bad guys. I just wish these guys would just stop and think what role models we make them into and thank all of us 'little' people who support the entire league and players with our purchases of tickets, endorsed apparal, TV contracts, ect....
I would like to know whos auto Jason got and his best story from meeting the players. I would have loved to be there.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>
I would like to know whos auto Jason got and his best story from meeting the players. I would have loved to be there. >>
Got a bunch of autos on a Pro Bowl helmet, mostly the guys I mentioned as good guys, who for the most part signed everything for everyone. Brees, Peterson, Manning, Ray Lewis, Tony Gonzalez.
Best story I would say there are two.
Adrian Peterson I met at the first practice on Wednesday. He had just completed an interview on NFL network and asked what branch of military I was in and how long I had been in Hawaii. Of course, I told him I had just moved from Dallas, TX (he's from the DFW area) and we had about a 5 minute conversation about everything he's got going on during Super Bowl week. Some of the charity stuff he's doing, etc. Just a real down to earth regular guy.
The other would be meeting Jaguars Special Teams rep. Montell Owens..Funny because when I met him, he was in street clothes and I didn't have a clue who he was..lol..I was wearing a polo with Jaguars logo and he asked if I was a Jaguars staff member...When I told him no, just a fan, and that Jacksonville is my hometown he started laughing and said that he played for them..I was like "Really, when?"..He said he was representing them in the Pro Bowl..Thats when I put 2-and-2 together and realized who he was..I mean guy is like 5'9", 190. Way smaller than me...I guess the shocked look on my face said it all. I said "guess that doesn't make me much of a fan, huh?"..He just said "don;t worry about it, we all look the same with helmets on..lol".
He is actually staying in hawaii an extra week on his honeymoon, so I gave him some info on the best whale watching dinner cruise to go on. Like Peterson, just a good natured guy.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>having watched the probowl since the early 80's i seem to remember them being a little more of a game than this. but then maybe i am just getting too old. soon i might start quoting childhood prices like my dad does....you know a pack of cards use be a quarter!?!?! >>
Yeah that was probably BEFORE some player blew out their knee playing hard in a meaningless exhibition. lol...Same with pre-season games. Guys used to have to actually play in them. Nowadays, the stars usually end up with about 4 total quarters of pre-season action in 4 games. It's a rough sport, and the worst possible scenario would be a bad injury for nothing....
If anyone is watching the Pro Bowl to see the NFC and AFC battle to the death, don't even tune in...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper. >>
I remember you saying in this thread a couple years ago that Peyton Manning had no people skills. Is he a changed man now, or did you mis-speak then?
<< <i>
<< <i>Just kinda funny to me when the guy who has the most demands and has the most fans screaming for them (Peyton Manning) is more approachable and interacts more with the public than a nobody kicker or long snapper. >>
I remember you saying in this thread a couple years ago that Peyton Manning had no people skills. Is he a changed man now, or did you mis-speak then? >>
Last time I interacted with Peyton Manning was 2000. He is definitely WAY DIFFERENT now than he was then. I'd really like to see where I said that though, cause I certainly don't remember saying that specifically. I may have called him a dufus or a bumpkin, because well he kinda still is. But I never once said he had no people skills. He's always been super nice to fans.
Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth.
Thanks,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks, Jason >>
I'm not gonna spend hours going through this thread to prove a point, but I remember you said (wrote) it. It was in response to someone writing something similar about Manning. I'm glad to hear he's a different guy now.
<< <i>
<< <i>Please find and re-post rather than putting words in my mouth. Thanks, Jason >>
I'm not gonna spend hours going through this thread to prove a point, but I remember you said (wrote) it. It was in response to someone writing something similar about Manning. I'm glad to hear he's a different guy now. >>
Yeah, that's what I thought...
Sorry, but your memory must be failing. Never once did I say Manning "had no people skills". Not once, not ever.
He came off more as a bumbling idiot back then, and still does a little. Back then he was more reserved, now he's more "life of the party" kinda guy. But always been super nice to the fans..What you are assuming makes no sense. As I watched him 10 years ago stay late and sign autographs for every person who wanted one, pretty sure I would have stated that here as well if we were talking Manning personality for some reason...Now he's a 4 time MVP and Super Bowl winner and still signs everything.
I may stay up late and find this post, just to serve you some crow for coming in here out of nowhere to try and call me a liar.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Tuesday December 04, 2007 11:50 AM
Josh,
I witnessed both of these guys auto habits when I worked security at the Pro Bowl a few years back when I was in Hawaii..1999 I think...
Steve Young signed occasionally. Meaning he was selective. He did sign, but not for every person.
I didn't see Emmitt sign anything. In fact he avoided the auto seekers. He was with Deion Sanders and they wouldn't even look at the autograph hounds no matter who was screaming there names (to include young kids).
Peyton manning came in 2000 and I swear he signed everything for everyone. Randy Moss was the worst. He was the only guy I saw actually being rude to people asking for his autograph.
Of course these were all a few years ago, people can change...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here's my guess as to how it will play out:
Sanders
Faulk
Sabol (WAY overdue)
Bettis (Only because the Steelers are in the Super Bowl - I think Martin is more deserving)
Dent
Hanburger
Richter
If I had it my way though, this is who I'd put in:
Sanders
Faulk
Sabol
Carter (Because he should have been first ballot)
Sharpe (Ditto)
Hanburger
Richter
I still feel very strongly that contributors and coaches should be voted on in a separate election, a la baseball. It's not fair to anyone to weigh the worthiness of a player vs. an administrator.
HOFers:
Deion Sanders
Marshall Faulk
Ed Sabol
Shannon Sharpe
Richard Dent
Chris Hanburger
Making the cut from 15 to 10:
Willie Roaf
Dermontti Dawson
Curtis Martin
Jerome Bettis
Andre Reed
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
<< <i>Do you guys believe Hanburger is a "lock" to get in?
Doc >>
No Senior candidate will be or can ever be considered a LOCK...All have been bypassed for at least 25 years on getting in...They are always longshots.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What do you think of their chances % wise for Hanburger & Richter?
Thanks,
Doc
<< <i>Jason,
What do you think of their chances % wise for Hanburger & Richter?
Thanks,
Doc >>
Hanburger 60%
Richter 40%
Its really going to be a crap shoot between the Seniors this year...There are groups of voters who favor one or the other. The comparisons are going to be made because they played the same position. If the committee is feeling really generous that day both could go in..If the moods are bad, a couple of hardcore detractors or arguements against them could knock both out...
Let's hope the weather improves before the vote..lol..Sounds petty, but there as many fickle idiots on that committee these days as there are hardcore football guys who take ithe process seriously.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.