<< <i> hey, vote for removal is just that a vote. I will be lobbying for the removal of At-water just as I have the past couple of years. Because the evidence (7 years not in the top 25) it showing me that he is not LIKELY to ever get inducted. The set wasn't built to house maybe/possible/10% chance guys, but rather better than 50%, more like 75% type guys. If you see others who you do not think belong, by all means NOMINATE THEM. That was my purpose for posting her BEFORE we vote in a few weeks. Get all the nominations lined up for my initial post. Anyone you nominate for addition or removal I will add to my initial poll/vote post. Then we let the majority decide who to add and who to take off. We all have different opinions, so that is why letting the votes decide always works best. How can any of us complain when we go with majority opinion. You can disagree, which I have plenty of times, but you have to at least respect the process. Much like the actual HOF vote. >>
i agree with a vote is just a vote. i happen to feel that a quick removal is short sighted. if a majority at the time thought that person had a good shot giving 5-7 years in my mind isnt enough time. your own example of ricky jackson bears that out. so, if this set was started back when he was playing/retiring and we had voted him in you would have been in favor of removing after 5-7 years. then a few years later you would have wanted him added back. then maybe removed again. as a collector that has other sets that require constant additions as new cards become graded, i understand the demands that are place on the set registry crew. to have them adding/removing and potentially adding back the same cards seems like a waste of their time and puts other collectors in longer wait periods for their additions or even sets to come on line.
you seem to like more hard set guidelines. i dont and wanted to make sure others knew that these were options not set in stone things like the requirements for making the all-time WR set. some people drop into the set and these boards part way through and probably dont have the time to go back to the start and read through all the posts. this thread has thousands of posts. but when the see now that this person has 6+ probowls, missed this many cuts etc. some might feel that these are "milestones" that are set in stone like for the all time sets. of course their would have to be a vote but the pharsing at times seem to indicate that these are "cut and dry" set points.
never i have ever said that didnt like the voting process. i also respect the process which is why i abstain from voting in sets that i am not currently collecting, though i may raise my views on the boards if the topics come up for discussion for other to hear either another side or a supportive position.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I re-read what I posted, and in any way shape or form you got "cut and dry" 6 + Pro Bowls equates to being added to the set, that is 100% something you contrived within your own thoughts.
You mention deleting/adding/deleting/adding as if this is something done on a whim...
Let's take a removal for example. We voted Antonio Gates onto the set last year (2009). He's probably got another 3 years easily (2012) of active play. It would take 5 years from his retirement before he is even ELIGIBLE for the HOF (2017). Once eligible, and he is a nominee for 5 years but can not crack the top 25, the year is 2022. So I'm not sure where you are finding 5-7 years there. Its actually more like 14 years....For me, it is FIVE CONSECUTIVE YEARS not making the top 25, yes I believe the player should be removed from the set as he is no longer considered a LIKELY HOFer. You use Rickey Jackson, well Jackson WAS NOT EVER VOTED ONTO THE SET. Not even after becoming a semi-finalist and finalist. Fred Dean, was NEVER VOTED ON TO THE SET. These players get exactly 20 shots at the HOF as a modern inductee. From their 5 years after retirement to 25 years after. It is VERY VERY VERY VERY rare for a player to be selected the FIRST TIME they are a semifinalist (excluding the first ballot Jerry Rice guys of course) In fact, since the semifinal process began with the class of 2004. How rare? IT HASN'T HAPPENED!!!!!! Not once!!lolol
You should remember that MOST of the collectors of the NFL HOF RC set are VERY knowledgeable collectors. And I think it is safe to trust that the majority of these collectors who vote will vote smartly. We've never had a senseless addition. All of them ,even the ones I didnt necessarily agree with had very good arguments towards their addition.
I request the new additions and upgrading of the card weights with the PSA staff every year. I'm certain that if we remove a card every few years, they will have no issue in doing so. Especially since the request is coming from the majority of collectors out there. They've done it before with no problem. (Kurt Warner removed from all-time QB set...He has since be RE-added). Situations change, opinions change..It is moronic to think we as a collecting group can not make fair and balanced decisions and actually REMOVE a player here and there if they are deemed to no longer be worthy of the "likely" HOF designation.
See ya at the vote! If you still collect the set and are knowledgeable about the player content I would hope you will participate. Your financial situation or whatever reason you arent actively collecting doesn't delete your opinion or your say in the player content of the set. If you don't vote, don't complain if your guy gets removed!!! lol VOTE
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I re-read what I posted, and in any way shape or form you got "cut and dry" 6 + Pro Bowls equates to being added to the set, that is 100% something you contrived within your own thoughts. >>
if you re-read my statement i said that the pharsing at times could lead someone that hasnt been following the modern set debate on this board from the start to imply that there is a standard policy for people that either have so many pro-bowls should be added or failure to make the top 25 should be deleted. when anyone reads anything on message boards you almost always read something into what is being said. that is because for the most part most of us keep our posts short. however if one comes in mid conversation things in the past wont be clear. for some wild guess i dont think that all 48 collectors of this set have been reading these boards from the start.
again if you re-read my example of jackson i did mention that if this set was around way back when he was playing or retiring that we would have fell into the on-off-on situation. again its fine if you would like to add-remove-add again thats your point of view. not everyone might agree with that pov. but your example of jackson shows that you can get in without making the 25 cut quite awhile, then make it once, fail to again then all of a sudden inducted. so for me your 5 year thing is kinda short sighted. after all this is a crap shoot. and as you have stated all of us Very knowledgable collectors never even voted to put Jackson or Dean in this set. this set hasnt been around that long and there are already 2 guys that we never put on the future modern set that have been elected. now take away those lock picks and those 2 really stick out of the modern guys elected during the life time of this set.
not sure why you are turning this into a huge debate. as i have stated the vote rules. what the vote says is what happens. but i feel that i am free to make my point. i dont expect everyone to agree with it and thats fine. many times i agree with you sometimes i dont. to be thats a good thing varitey is the spice of life. if everyone always agreed with everyone else there really wouldnt be a reason for these boards or even a vote.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
I responded because you seemed upset due to LeRoy Butler being nominated for removal. You initial statements were:
maybe we should just eliminate the safety position from this set
And
just offering up my thoughts as to why i dont collect this set actively anymore.
And
we start to put players on that arent even retired, yet they could be removed from the set 10 years after they finally retire. doesnt seem to make much sense.
So forgive me if I was incorrect in my thoughts about needing to respond. I wanted to be sure you understood the process. We can certainly agree to disagree. But proposition that we just "remove a position" altogether, and then infer that you are no longer actively collecting the set because we can vote active players on as well as players who are no longer being considered as likely HOFers.....Little overboard on both wouldn't you say? It is out of whack statements such as that which created the huge debate. My posting of upcoming nominees was to give a heads up to the possibilities this year. Nothing more. I didn't lobby for anything or anyone. Just wanted collectors who care to get a jump start on any research or digging they wanted to do on these players. Since in the past, we typically get a voter or 2 who won't vote for a certain player, or won't vote at all as they don't feel they know the player or players well enough.
Not to mention give others a chance to make their own nominations and get them on the initial nominee list. We always have late nominees, and none of them ever seem to get the votes. They miss out on the early voters. Just trying to help, and didn't expect "lets delete this position" and "this is why I stopped collecting this set" complaints from it...
Happy New Year BTW! Hawaii was NUTS last night..Like Baghdad during shock and awe campaign..lol..They love their fireworks here, and starting 2011, there are much stricter fireworks laws.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>happy new year to you and yours. must be nice to be in Paradise for the new year. >>
I'm here for the WHOLE YEAR..Living in Hawaii now and for the foreseeable future. Let me know if you ever venture out this way. Goes for any of the collectors here. I can probably help you with any plans or to-do lists.
Taking Pro Bowl week off, going to get some autographs and enjoy the festivities.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Here is my current list of nominees for addition to the Modern set. Still waiting for the All-Pro announcements (first week or so of January).
6+ Pro Bowls: Jason Witten Richard Seymour Dwight Freeney Chad Johnson Julius Peppers Troy Polamalu Olin Kreutz Lance Briggs Donovan McNabb Matt Birk
Other nominees with fewer than 6 Pro Bowls: Drew Brees Hines Ward Edgerrin James Ty Law Reggie Wayne
Players who have been HOF Semifinalists (top 25) but are not included on the set: Kevin Greene-5 times Steve Tasker-4 times Joe Jacoby-2 times Donnie Shell- 1 time
Players who could get their fourth 1st team All-Pro selection (these won't be automatic nominees unless they are 1st team selections): 1-Ronde Barber 2-DeMarcus Ware 3-Jared Allen
Only Ware made the Pro Bowl, so is likely the only of the 3 with a shot. Downfall for Ware is that he's only played 6 seasons. If he blows out a knee in training camp, he won;t have enough longevity to make the HOF, so I don;t know how we can vote him in.
Guys I will be nominating for removal: Steve At-water-7 straight years has not made Top 25 semifinalist LeRoy Butler- 5 straight years has not made Top 25 semifinalist
For those who plan on voting. If you are unaware or not familiar with any of these players, take some time in the next few weeks to learn what you can so we all can make logical votes. >>
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection. >>
Correct. They should be announced sometime around the 13th-14th. I agree Ware has a shot (although some other VERY strong OLBs this year like Matthews and Wake). You can nominate him for the voting no matter if he gets it or not though. I can add him to be initial list of players to be voted on. For me, I probably won't vote for Ware this year, even if he does get the 4th All-pro. Simply because I feel like 6 years is not long enough of a career to determine a guy as a likely to lock HOFer. But that's just my opinion. Another year or two of solid healthy play, and I'd be second in line (behind the Cowboys fan of course..lol) in voting him on.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection. >>
Correct. They should be announced sometime around the 13th-14th. I agree Ware has a shot (although some other VERY strong OLBs this year like Matthews and Wake). You can nominate him for the voting no matter if he gets it or not though. I can add him to be initial list of players to be voted on. For me, I probably won't vote for Ware this year, even if he does get the 4th All-pro. Simply because I feel like 6 years is not long enough of a career to determine a guy as a likely to lock HOFer. But that's just my opinion. Another year or two of solid healthy play, and I'd be second in line (behind the Cowboys fan of course..lol) in voting him on.
Jason >>
Thanks for the information. I'm very curious to see which OLB's make first team All Pro this year b/c there are some strong candidates.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Jerome Bettis, RB (1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers) » Tim Brown, WR/KR (1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers) » Cris Carter, WR (1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins) » Dermontti Dawson, C (1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers) » Richard Dent, DE (1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles) » Chris Doleman, DE/LB (1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers) » Marshall Faulk, RB (1994-98 Indianapolis Colts, 1999-2005 St. Louis Rams) » Charles Haley, DE/LB (1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys) » Cortez Kennedy, DT (1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks) » Curtis Martin, RB (1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets) » Andre Reed, WR (1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins) » Willie Roaf, OT (1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs) » Ed Sabol, Contributor (1964-1995 NFL Films) » Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR (1989-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-99 Dallas Cowboys, 2000 Washington Redskins, 2004-05 Baltimore Ravens) » Shannon Sharpe, TE (1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens)
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Jerome Bettis, RB (1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers) Tim Brown, WR/KR (1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers) Cris Carter, WR (1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins) Dermontti Dawson, C (1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers) Richard Dent, DE (1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles) Chris Doleman, DE/LB (1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers) Marshall Faulk, RB (1994-98 Indianapolis Colts, 1999-2005 St. Louis Rams) Charles Haley, DE/LB (1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys) Cortez Kennedy, DT (1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks) Curtis Martin, RB (1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets) Andre Reed, WR (1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins) Willie Roaf, OT (1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs) Ed Sabol, Contributor (1964-1995 NFL Films) Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR (1989-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-99 Dallas Cowboys, 2000 Washington Redskins, 2004-05 Baltimore Ravens) Shannon Sharpe, TE (1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens)
Missing the cut:
Don Coryell, Coach Roger Craig, RB Terrell Davis, RB Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner Kevin Greene, LB/DE Ray Guy, P Lester Hayes, CB Art Modell, Owner Paul Tagliabue, Contributor Aeneas Williams, CB/S George Young, GM
This was the last chance for Ray Guy and Lester Hayes, they will move to the senior abyss. Ed Sabol making the top 15 all be ensures he will go into the HOF. Will leave 4 other slots, 2 of which are foregone conclusions Deion and Faulk...That will leave 2 slots that will likely come down to:
Cris Carter Richard Dent Andre Reed Willie Roaf Shannon Sharpe
Of these I like Dent and Sharpe.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'd love to see Sabol finally get in, and agree that Deion & Marshall should be no-brainers. Choosing two from the remaining pool will be very interesting, as the choices Jason noted could certainly be the selections, which would push the WR backlog back yet again for Carter, Reed, T.Brown, etc. I'm disappointed to see Craig not make the final 15 after making it last year, although it has to be expected with 3 big RB names being eligible for the first time this year. With the great class of first timers coming on board this year, we'll certainly have some deserving candidates (some combo of Bettis, Martin, Sharpe, Roaf, Carter, Reed) who won't get in this year. Somewhere, Keith Weinhold is smiling....
IMO the locks are Faulk and Sanders w/ the rest of the spots up for grabs. Maybe 1 DT/DE, 1 OL, 1 WR/TE, or Sabol.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Breaking down the finalists into likelyhood tiers. All my opinion, but opinion based on recent sentiments and previous voting history:
100% GUARANTEE Marshall Faulk Deion Sanders
75% Cris Carter Richard Dent Andre Reed Willie Roaf Ed Sabol Shannon Sharpe
49% Jerome Bettis Dermontti Dawson Cortez Kennedy Curtis Martin
25% Tim Brown Charles Haley
1% Chris Doleman
The good news ALL PLAYERS are members of our Future HOF Modern Set this year. No real wildcards like Rickey Jackson or Fred Dean.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO.
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
I know its not the Hall of Stats but his sack total is very hard to ignore. Overall his stats compare very w/ Bruce Smith'sand Reggie White's production at the DE position. IMO Doleman was an elite pass rusher for the majority of his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
Jackson was just as good or better than any body else in his era. His numbers are comparable to LT. He was much better than Andre Tippett over his career. He deserved to get in. Fred Dean is from my hometown and went to my school La Tech. so I am happy he is in, but point taken on him.
The good news for anyone who gets passed over this year is that next year is almost wide open. Will Shields is the only first-timer with a shot. It gets tougher again in 2013 when Allen, Ogden, Strahan, Sapp, Andersen and Lynch all become eligible. As for this year, it'll be interesting to see if there is a wildcard selected. It seems like more times than not there is.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>The good news for anyone who gets passed over this year is that next year is almost wide open. Will Shields is the only first-timer with a shot. It gets tougher again in 2013 when Allen, Ogden, Strahan, Sapp, Andersen and Lynch all become eligible. As for this year, it'll be interesting to see if there is a wildcard selected. It seems like more times than not there is. >>
Agreed, and highly doubt Shields is going in 1st ballot. Keep in mind Bill Parcells will be eligible next year, and very well could take a spot (if they think he is done coaching for good).
Next year will be the Bettis and Martin show for sure. Will be the last "catch up year" for a few. 2013-2015 are STACKED with first ballot guys/guys who will jump current candidates in the HOF line.
Also, Sabol IS the wildcard this year. Never even been in the top 25. But he's been getting the biggest push/amount of fan mail to the HOF and voters of anyone this year. Similar to Rickey Jackson last year --which I called BTW -- The fact that he is now in the final 15, plus ALL the votes that went to contributors over players this year (6 non-players made the top 25), I will be shocked if Sabol doesn't get in. It's well deserved, 10000%, I just wish they would take one of those Senior slots and give it to a coach/contributor every 3 years or so instead of playing them vs. players. Just impossible to compare.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
I know its not the Hall of Stats but his sack total is very hard to ignore. Overall his stats compare very w/ Bruce Smith'sand Reggie White's production at the DE position. IMO Doleman was an elite pass rusher for the majority of his career. >>
This is Doleman's first time as a Finalist.
For me, he is a borderline type candidate. Dent and Haley still the clear cream of that pass rusher crop however, with Strahan jumping in next year. Doleman has a nice sack total and was a very good player and an elite pass rusher. He should get in someday. But at this point, there are other pass rushers who are more worthy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This is simply a fair and honest question by me...not intended to criticize anyone's opinions. That being said, why is Deion Sanders universally considered by everyone to be a slam dunk 100% lock? I'm of the opinion that he was more of a showman than anything else. Does everyone feel that this is a big contributing factor as to why he will be a lock going in? I realize the hard stats won't be there because teams avoided him, but he was below poor at tackling and was pretty much a bust after '94/'95, no?
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me...
<< <i>This is simply a fair and honest question by me...not intended to criticize anyone's opinions. That being said, why is Deion Sanders universally considered by everyone to be a slam dunk 100% lock? I'm of the opinion that he was more of a showman than anything else. Does everyone feel that this is a big contributing factor as to why he will be a lock going in? I realize the hard stats won't be there because teams avoided him, but he was below poor at tackling and was pretty much a bust after '94/'95, no?
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me... >>
I think Deion, Nnamdi and Champ Bailey are all considered elite, lockdown corners in their respective eras. However, Deion was also an elite kick/punt returner who changed football games from that position and also won rings which Nnamdi and Champ are lacking. With the 49ers/Cowboys rivalry in the early-to-mid 90s, one could argue that Deion's presence on the '94 49ers and the '95 Cowboys was a major reason each of those teams hoisted the Lombardi that year, having not been on the team the year before. If you haven't watched his piece on the NFL Network's top 100, do so. Hearing Michael Irvin present Deion's case should do it for you.
Deion was the premier lockdown corner of his time and a great returner. But he was also a guy that DARED you to throw it at him. Not just with his actions, but he would say it. He was almost like a professional wrestler in self-promotion. Ochocinco and the guys are just poor imitations. But Deion could back it up. So, unlike a guy like Steve At-water that has a great resume but didn't self-promote, Deion is a well-known star. He still does television ads and you don't even have to mention his name. I saw one tonight! He has been retired for five years and is still recognized by just about every football fan even without his uniform. Combine the greatness of the player with the huge fame and you have 100% SLAM DUNK!!!
<< <i>This is simply a fair and honest question by me...not intended to criticize anyone's opinions. That being said, why is Deion Sanders universally considered by everyone to be a slam dunk 100% lock? I'm of the opinion that he was more of a showman than anything else. Does everyone feel that this is a big contributing factor as to why he will be a lock going in? I realize the hard stats won't be there because teams avoided him, but he was below poor at tackling and was pretty much a bust after '94/'95, no?
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me... >>
Deion was voted the 3rd greatest DB in the history of the NFL (Top 100 Player of All-Time) by a quite solid panel of experts. Certainly guys who 99.99999% of the world would consider more expert than any of us on this message board. Only Ronnie Lott and Night train Lane were ranked higher...
If that isn't a LOCK 1st Ballot HOFer, no one else...
Deion is the ORIGINAL shut down corner...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I upgraded my 1948 LEAF BILL DUDLEY #36 last night. If anyone wants my Dudley in a psa 5 for $40.00 shipped let me know. There is a scan in my NFL HOF RCs set. link
Also have a 1955 BOWMAN LEN FORD #14 in a psa 6 for $15.00 delivered.
With the great class of first timers coming on board this year, we'll certainly have some deserving candidates (some combo of Bettis, Martin, Sharpe, Roaf, Carter, Reed) who won't get in this year. Somewhere, Keith Weinhold is smiling....
Hi gang. FIGHT4OLDDC here. Im sorry that I didn't answer all of your inquiries. As a few alluded to on here, I'm a bit overwhelmed with some major personal issues right now.
To simplify things a bit, I have decided to use MINT STATE as my exclusive partner to break up the collection. Please feel free to contact Rick directly and as we all know - he will be responsive, ethical and easy to work with as we proceed.
I have forwarded on most of your inquiries to him - but please contact him again so as to not lose an item you are seeking.
Other notable updates: 1. You all will soon learn of a significant sale. Arguably 5 of the top cards in the hobby have been sold. These are significant. The Bronko, the Starr, the Sport King Thorpe, the Jim Brown, the Unitas have been sold in a private unsolicited sale. What this means - is MY ENTIRE COLLECTION will be sold. I will not be keeping even one card. I am doing this for personal reasons but assure you all I will be back in the hobby one day soon (likely end of next year - 2012). 2. I have some duplicates for sale in the upcoming Memory Lane Auction - I think its his BIG GAME AUCTION THAT IS ALL FOOTBALL. 3. All cards are currently being sent to PSA for relabeling and grade review - they were sent in the past few days. The relabeling will read FIGHT4OLDDC COLLECTION (if you dont like this, I believe having it relabeled classically or otherwise is an easy process). This process should take approximately three weeks from now. 4. After the regrade/relabeling - Rick and I will set prices very shortly thereafter and each card will be available on a one by one set price basis. I anticipate this to occur shortly after the Super Bowl/President's Day Weekend.
So in summary, happy/sad to share the news. I have to get out completely. All inquiries should be directed to Rick at MINT STATE. He is my exclusive dealer at this time. If someone else contacts you, they arent being truthful at this time. THE BRONKO IS SOLD and it will set a new record for the hobby and I think folks on this board will be pleased.
Kind regards to all. Happy New Year and my sincerest apologies that I havent been more responsive. Im going through a lot right now and appreciate your patience. Jon
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I LOVE reading this thread...you guys are awesome. Hey, with all the speculation of Steve Sabol getting into the Hall, my question is this. What card would you all have to get for the set?. I am not currently collecting the set, or would I be any competition for any of you in any auctions, I would just love to see the card. I wasn't even aware that he HAD an official card. -Thanks, Clint.
<< <i>Well I for one wish Jon the very best of luck and wish him all the best.
As many of us know cards are far from the most important things in life.
I have enjoyed watching him on the sidelines build the greatest set ever. He has even managed to buy a few table scraps from me over the years.
So when the smoke clears I do hope he comes back. >>
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE KIND WORDS. This hobby was fun because of people like you and Jason, Andy, Marc and countless others. It represents my youth. My love of football. My time with my sons. History of the game I love. But again, in a world where we all have lots of stress and pressure, this hobby was fun because it is full of wonderful people that all shared a similar love and passion for what these pieces of cardboard represent. Dealing with like-minded people is what made this hobby such a wonderful escape for me. Thanks to each and every one of you. By definition, I started this with nothing and many of you made assembling this set possible. For that and all the emails and conversations - Thanks so much. I will be back once things settle down - but not in the same way as before...time to let some others enjoy these cards and pass me by one day. I guarantee that will happen. Regards, Jon
1. For those of you who do not want to wait for the broader process several weeks from now, Rick will entertain pre-emptive offers on any single card that is on your must-have list. In order to preempt the broader process, you must be at the very top and in many cases, beyond the range for what one would think a card would sell for. This was how the significant sale happened last week with the Nagurski, Unitas, Thorpe, Starr and Brown.
2. As I mentioned earlier, I did consign 10 duplicates to Memory Lane's Upcoming BIG GAME AUCTION. The list is as follows.
1. 1935 National Chicle #9 Knute Rockne PSA 8 2. 1948 Leaf #28 Whitey Wistert Rookie PSA 7 3. 1948 Bowman #36 Bulldog Turner PSA 8 4. 1950 Bowman #15 Tank Youger PSA 9 5. 1952 Bowman Large #127 Ollie Matson PSA 8 6. 1955 Topps All American #84 Ace Parker PSA 8 7. 1965 Philadelphia #41 Paul Warfield PSA 9 8. 1965 Philadelphia #105 Carl Eller PSA 9 9. 1965 Philadelphia #189 Paul Krause PSA 9 10. 1965 Philadelphia #195 Charley Taylor PSA 9
Please keep an eye out for these. If you have any questions, please direct your inquiries to Rick Snyder at MINT STATE. Otherwise, I am always available as well at jondisaacson@gmail.com
Kind regards and since the Skins stink - I have to say GO RAVENS.
Jon- I wish you the best and hope to hear from you on this board from time to time. I look forward to the day you are back building your collection again.
I was curious as to why Thomas Jones was rejected for the All Time Rushers Set?
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I thought 10K was automatic as well. Not sure why they even sent out a poll.
that being said.....No way he belongs in the same category as "all time greatest rushers" IMO..
Dave >>
If Dunn, Lewis, and Barber were added after hitting the milestone I don't understand why Jones was rejected. I understand the argument against him but if 10,000 yards is the criteria for modern players then Jones should be included.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I was curious as to why Thomas Jones was rejected for the All Time Rushers Set?
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number. >>
Automatic anything stopped about a year to year and a half ago...It's all voting now..Someone can request Ty Cobb to be added to the rushers set and PSA will send out a poll...If the majority vote to add...Ty Cobb becomes an All-Time Rusher...As ridiculous as it sounds, that is PSA's version of customer service.
The Key Card sets (in general) have been ruined and are completely FUBAR IMO. We've been pretty lucky with the HOF sets so far. Most of them were created by those of us here in the thread/on the boards. If we can maintain or sanity we can keep the HOF rookie sets from being likewise destroyed.
Unfortunately all it takes is a couple of newbs with "bright ideas" though...Key Card sets went down the crapper in a matter of months...I chose to get out of them altogether so I wouldn't have to watch the fall from grace from the front row...Best of luck for those of you still fighting the good fight....
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As one of the guys fighting the good fight...Who, in your opinion, will be the next guy to be added to the rushers set? I am also curious as to who may be added to the recievers set....besides Ward (think I just got an email about adding him). Maybe I should just bite the bullet and start the HOF set since some of my cards will go in automatically.
<< <i>As one of the guys fighting the good fight...Who, in your opinion, will be the next guy to be added to the rushers set? I am also curious as to who may be added to the recievers set....besides Ward (think I just got an email about adding him). Maybe I should just bite the bullet and start the HOF set since some of my cards will go in automatically. >>
yes you should. I sent the request in on Ward. I think he belongs in the set. For the All-Time Rushers I also voted no, as I agree with Publius on that issue. It would be like adding Kerry Collins to the All-Time Passers set. For future adds I can only see someone line Peterson getting in if he continues his course without hitting a wall. I think it should be limited to those truly dominant at the position. I think all the players in the set currently belong but we should be very particular on who we add.
On a side note, say Cortez Kennedy gets in, which card should we add for the HOF set? For the 90s team of the decade the Score Update is used, for the Future HOF it is the Action Packed - I am a much bigger fan of the Score Update (and that is the recognized rookie for Emmitt who has cards in both sets). Why would we not go with that one?
IMO "dominance" is too subjective and a number limit is the best way to go w/ the All Time Rushers Set.
I don't see how Dunn gets in when Jones has had a very similar career. Also when was Hornung a dominant rusher?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
There are quite a few players in the rushers set that need to be voted out if, in fact, 10K is no longer an automatic ticket. That is the only reason a few of those guys made it.
<< <i>I was curious as to why Thomas Jones was rejected for the All Time Rushers Set?
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number. >>
Automatic anything stopped about a year to year and a half ago...It's all voting now..Someone can request Ty Cobb to be added to the rushers set and PSA will send out a poll...If the majority vote to add...Ty Cobb becomes an All-Time Rusher...As ridiculous as it sounds, that is PSA's version of customer service.
The Key Card sets (in general) have been ruined and are completely FUBAR IMO. We've been pretty lucky with the HOF sets so far. Most of them were created by those of us here in the thread/on the boards. If we can maintain or sanity we can keep the HOF rookie sets from being likewise destroyed.
Unfortunately all it takes is a couple of newbs with "bright ideas" though...Key Card sets went down the crapper in a matter of months...I chose to get out of them altogether so I wouldn't have to watch the fall from grace from the front row...Best of luck for those of you still fighting the good fight....
Jason >>
Thanks for the information, I thought the criteria for the set was the yardage mark. Just curious, why don't we have set criteria for modern players for the passing, rushing, receiving, and sack registry sets? Since these are Key Player sets rather than HOF Player sets I don't see why stats can't be used to determine the inclusion of modern players.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
If it were up to me, I would vote out Anderson, Waters, Dunn, Dillon, Barber, James, Lewis, George, and Taylor. An average back can get to 10K yards any more especially when the 18 game schedule comes along. This should be the greatest RB's in the history of the game, which does not include the ones I listed above. Just my opinion of course.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
hey, vote for removal is just that a vote. I will be lobbying for the removal of At-water just as I have the past couple of years. Because the evidence (7 years not in the top 25) it showing me that he is not LIKELY to ever get inducted. The set wasn't built to house maybe/possible/10% chance guys, but rather better than 50%, more like 75% type guys. If you see others who you do not think belong, by all means NOMINATE THEM. That was my purpose for posting her BEFORE we vote in a few weeks. Get all the nominations lined up for my initial post. Anyone you nominate for addition or removal I will add to my initial poll/vote post. Then we let the majority decide who to add and who to take off. We all have different opinions, so that is why letting the votes decide always works best. How can any of us complain when we go with majority opinion. You can disagree, which I have plenty of times, but you have to at least respect the process. Much like the actual HOF vote. >>
i agree with a vote is just a vote. i happen to feel that a quick removal is short sighted. if a majority at the time thought that person had a good shot giving 5-7 years in my mind isnt enough time. your own example of ricky jackson bears that out. so, if this set was started back when he was playing/retiring and we had voted him in you would have been in favor of removing after 5-7 years. then a few years later you would have wanted him added back. then maybe removed again. as a collector that has other sets that require constant additions as new cards become graded, i understand the demands that are place on the set registry crew. to have them adding/removing and potentially adding back the same cards seems like a waste of their time and puts other collectors in longer wait periods for their additions or even sets to come on line.
you seem to like more hard set guidelines. i dont and wanted to make sure others knew that these were options not set in stone things like the requirements for making the all-time WR set. some people drop into the set and these boards part way through and probably dont have the time to go back to the start and read through all the posts. this thread has thousands of posts. but when the see now that this person has 6+ probowls, missed this many cuts etc. some might feel that these are "milestones" that are set in stone like for the all time sets. of course their would have to be a vote but the pharsing at times seem to indicate that these are "cut and dry" set points.
never i have ever said that didnt like the voting process. i also respect the process which is why i abstain from voting in sets that i am not currently collecting, though i may raise my views on the boards if the topics come up for discussion for other to hear either another side or a supportive position.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
You mention deleting/adding/deleting/adding as if this is something done on a whim...
Let's take a removal for example. We voted Antonio Gates onto the set last year (2009). He's probably got another 3 years easily (2012) of active play. It would take 5 years from his retirement before he is even ELIGIBLE for the HOF (2017). Once eligible, and he is a nominee for 5 years but can not crack the top 25, the year is 2022. So I'm not sure where you are finding 5-7 years there. Its actually more like 14 years....For me, it is FIVE CONSECUTIVE YEARS not making the top 25, yes I believe the player should be removed from the set as he is no longer considered a LIKELY HOFer. You use Rickey Jackson, well Jackson WAS NOT EVER VOTED ONTO THE SET. Not even after becoming a semi-finalist and finalist. Fred Dean, was NEVER VOTED ON TO THE SET. These players get exactly 20 shots at the HOF as a modern inductee. From their 5 years after retirement to 25 years after. It is VERY VERY VERY VERY rare for a player to be selected the FIRST TIME they are a semifinalist (excluding the first ballot Jerry Rice guys of course) In fact, since the semifinal process began with the class of 2004. How rare? IT HASN'T HAPPENED!!!!!! Not once!!lolol
You should remember that MOST of the collectors of the NFL HOF RC set are VERY knowledgeable collectors. And I think it is safe to trust that the majority of these collectors who vote will vote smartly. We've never had a senseless addition. All of them ,even the ones I didnt necessarily agree with had very good arguments towards their addition.
I request the new additions and upgrading of the card weights with the PSA staff every year. I'm certain that if we remove a card every few years, they will have no issue in doing so. Especially since the request is coming from the majority of collectors out there. They've done it before with no problem. (Kurt Warner removed from all-time QB set...He has since be RE-added). Situations change, opinions change..It is moronic to think we as a collecting group can not make fair and balanced decisions and actually REMOVE a player here and there if they are deemed to no longer be worthy of the "likely" HOF designation.
See ya at the vote! If you still collect the set and are knowledgeable about the player content I would hope you will participate. Your financial situation or whatever reason you arent actively collecting doesn't delete your opinion or your say in the player content of the set. If you don't vote, don't complain if your guy gets removed!!! lol VOTE
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I re-read what I posted, and in any way shape or form you got "cut and dry" 6 + Pro Bowls equates to being added to the set, that is 100% something you contrived within your own thoughts. >>
if you re-read my statement i said that the pharsing at times could lead someone that hasnt been following the modern set debate on this board from the start to imply that there is a standard policy for people that either have so many pro-bowls should be added or failure to make the top 25 should be deleted. when anyone reads anything on message boards you almost always read something into what is being said. that is because for the most part most of us keep our posts short. however if one comes in mid conversation things in the past wont be clear. for some wild guess i dont think that all 48 collectors of this set have been reading these boards from the start.
again if you re-read my example of jackson i did mention that if this set was around way back when he was playing or retiring that we would have fell into the on-off-on situation. again its fine if you would like to add-remove-add again thats your point of view. not everyone might agree with that pov. but your example of jackson shows that you can get in without making the 25 cut quite awhile, then make it once, fail to again then all of a sudden inducted. so for me your 5 year thing is kinda short sighted. after all this is a crap shoot. and as you have stated all of us Very knowledgable collectors never even voted to put Jackson or Dean in this set. this set hasnt been around that long and there are already 2 guys that we never put on the future modern set that have been elected. now take away those lock picks and those 2 really stick out of the modern guys elected during the life time of this set.
not sure why you are turning this into a huge debate. as i have stated the vote rules. what the vote says is what happens. but i feel that i am free to make my point. i dont expect everyone to agree with it and thats fine. many times i agree with you sometimes i dont. to be thats a good thing varitey is the spice of life. if everyone always agreed with everyone else there really wouldnt be a reason for these boards or even a vote.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
maybe we should just eliminate the safety position from this set
And
just offering up my thoughts as to why i dont collect this set actively anymore.
And
we start to put players on that arent even retired, yet they could be removed from the set 10 years after they finally retire. doesnt seem to make much sense.
So forgive me if I was incorrect in my thoughts about needing to respond. I wanted to be sure you understood the process. We can certainly agree to disagree. But proposition that we just "remove a position" altogether, and then infer that you are no longer actively collecting the set because we can vote active players on as well as players who are no longer being considered as likely HOFers.....Little overboard on both wouldn't you say? It is out of whack statements such as that which created the huge debate. My posting of upcoming nominees was to give a heads up to the possibilities this year. Nothing more. I didn't lobby for anything or anyone. Just wanted collectors who care to get a jump start on any research or digging they wanted to do on these players. Since in the past, we typically get a voter or 2 who won't vote for a certain player, or won't vote at all as they don't feel they know the player or players well enough.
Not to mention give others a chance to make their own nominations and get them on the initial nominee list. We always have late nominees, and none of them ever seem to get the votes. They miss out on the early voters. Just trying to help, and didn't expect "lets delete this position" and "this is why I stopped collecting this set" complaints from it...
Happy New Year BTW! Hawaii was NUTS last night..Like Baghdad during shock and awe campaign..lol..They love their fireworks here, and starting 2011, there are much stricter fireworks laws.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>happy new year to you and yours. must be nice to be in Paradise for the new year. >>
I'm here for the WHOLE YEAR..Living in Hawaii now and for the foreseeable future. Let me know if you ever venture out this way. Goes for any of the collectors here. I can probably help you with any plans or to-do lists.
Taking Pro Bowl week off, going to get some autographs and enjoy the festivities.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Here is my current list of nominees for addition to the Modern set. Still waiting for the All-Pro announcements (first week or so of January).
6+ Pro Bowls:
Jason Witten
Richard Seymour
Dwight Freeney
Chad Johnson
Julius Peppers
Troy Polamalu
Olin Kreutz
Lance Briggs
Donovan McNabb
Matt Birk
Other nominees with fewer than 6 Pro Bowls:
Drew Brees
Hines Ward
Edgerrin James
Ty Law
Reggie Wayne
Players who have been HOF Semifinalists (top 25) but are not included on the set:
Kevin Greene-5 times
Steve Tasker-4 times
Joe Jacoby-2 times
Donnie Shell- 1 time
Players who could get their fourth 1st team All-Pro selection (these won't be automatic nominees unless they are 1st team selections):
1-Ronde Barber
2-DeMarcus Ware
3-Jared Allen
Only Ware made the Pro Bowl, so is likely the only of the 3 with a shot. Downfall for Ware is that he's only played 6 seasons. If he blows out a knee in training camp, he won;t have enough longevity to make the HOF, so I don;t know how we can vote him in.
Guys I will be nominating for removal:
Steve At-water-7 straight years has not made Top 25 semifinalist
LeRoy Butler- 5 straight years has not made Top 25 semifinalist
For those who plan on voting. If you are unaware or not familiar with any of these players, take some time in the next few weeks to learn what you can so we all can make logical votes. >>
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection. >>
Correct. They should be announced sometime around the 13th-14th. I agree Ware has a shot (although some other VERY strong OLBs this year like Matthews and Wake). You can nominate him for the voting no matter if he gets it or not though. I can add him to be initial list of players to be voted on. For me, I probably won't vote for Ware this year, even if he does get the 4th All-pro. Simply because I feel like 6 years is not long enough of a career to determine a guy as a likely to lock HOFer. But that's just my opinion. Another year or two of solid healthy play, and I'd be second in line (behind the Cowboys fan of course..lol) in voting him on.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Will we be waiting for the All Pro selections prior to voting for the additons? After a strong finish I believe Ware has a good shot at a 4th 1st team All Pro selection. >>
Correct. They should be announced sometime around the 13th-14th. I agree Ware has a shot (although some other VERY strong OLBs this year like Matthews and Wake). You can nominate him for the voting no matter if he gets it or not though. I can add him to be initial list of players to be voted on. For me, I probably won't vote for Ware this year, even if he does get the 4th All-pro. Simply because I feel like 6 years is not long enough of a career to determine a guy as a likely to lock HOFer. But that's just my opinion. Another year or two of solid healthy play, and I'd be second in line (behind the Cowboys fan of course..lol) in voting him on.
Jason >>
Thanks for the information. I'm very curious to see which OLB's make first team All Pro this year b/c there are some strong candidates.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Jerome Bettis, RB (1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers)
» Tim Brown, WR/KR (1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
» Cris Carter, WR (1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins)
» Dermontti Dawson, C (1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers)
» Richard Dent, DE (1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles)
» Chris Doleman, DE/LB (1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers)
» Marshall Faulk, RB (1994-98 Indianapolis Colts, 1999-2005 St. Louis Rams)
» Charles Haley, DE/LB (1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys)
» Cortez Kennedy, DT (1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks)
» Curtis Martin, RB (1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets)
» Andre Reed, WR (1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins)
» Willie Roaf, OT (1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs)
» Ed Sabol, Contributor (1964-1995 NFL Films)
» Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR (1989-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-99 Dallas Cowboys, 2000 Washington Redskins, 2004-05 Baltimore Ravens)
» Shannon Sharpe, TE (1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens)
NFL Breaking News
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Jerome Bettis, RB (1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers)
Tim Brown, WR/KR (1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
Cris Carter, WR (1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins)
Dermontti Dawson, C (1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers)
Richard Dent, DE (1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles)
Chris Doleman, DE/LB (1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers)
Marshall Faulk, RB (1994-98 Indianapolis Colts, 1999-2005 St. Louis Rams)
Charles Haley, DE/LB (1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys)
Cortez Kennedy, DT (1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks)
Curtis Martin, RB (1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets)
Andre Reed, WR (1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins)
Willie Roaf, OT (1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs)
Ed Sabol, Contributor (1964-1995 NFL Films)
Deion Sanders, CB/KR/PR (1989-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1995-99 Dallas Cowboys, 2000 Washington Redskins, 2004-05 Baltimore Ravens)
Shannon Sharpe, TE (1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens)
Missing the cut:
Don Coryell, Coach
Roger Craig, RB
Terrell Davis, RB
Edward DeBartolo, Jr., Owner
Kevin Greene, LB/DE
Ray Guy, P
Lester Hayes, CB
Art Modell, Owner
Paul Tagliabue, Contributor
Aeneas Williams, CB/S
George Young, GM
This was the last chance for Ray Guy and Lester Hayes, they will move to the senior abyss. Ed Sabol making the top 15 all be ensures he will go into the HOF. Will leave 4 other slots, 2 of which are foregone conclusions Deion and Faulk...That will leave 2 slots that will likely come down to:
Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Andre Reed
Willie Roaf
Shannon Sharpe
Of these I like Dent and Sharpe.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
100% GUARANTEE
Marshall Faulk
Deion Sanders
75%
Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Andre Reed
Willie Roaf
Ed Sabol
Shannon Sharpe
49%
Jerome Bettis
Dermontti Dawson
Cortez Kennedy
Curtis Martin
25%
Tim Brown
Charles Haley
1%
Chris Doleman
The good news ALL PLAYERS are members of our Future HOF Modern Set this year. No real wildcards like Rickey Jackson or Fred Dean.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
I know its not the Hall of Stats but his sack total is very hard to ignore. Overall his stats compare very w/ Bruce Smith'sand Reggie White's production at the DE position. IMO Doleman was an elite pass rusher for the majority of his career.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
Jackson was just as good or better than any body else in his era. His numbers are comparable to LT. He was much better than Andre Tippett over his career. He deserved to get in. Fred Dean is from my hometown and went to my school La Tech. so I am happy he is in, but point taken on him.
<< <i>The good news for anyone who gets passed over this year is that next year is almost wide open. Will Shields is the only first-timer with a shot. It gets tougher again in 2013 when Allen, Ogden, Strahan, Sapp, Andersen and Lynch all become eligible. As for this year, it'll be interesting to see if there is a wildcard selected. It seems like more times than not there is. >>
Agreed, and highly doubt Shields is going in 1st ballot. Keep in mind Bill Parcells will be eligible next year, and very well could take a spot (if they think he is done coaching for good).
Next year will be the Bettis and Martin show for sure. Will be the last "catch up year" for a few. 2013-2015 are STACKED with first ballot guys/guys who will jump current candidates in the HOF line.
Also, Sabol IS the wildcard this year. Never even been in the top 25. But he's been getting the biggest push/amount of fan mail to the HOF and voters of anyone this year. Similar to Rickey Jackson last year --which I called BTW
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Has Doleman made the finals before? He's not a HOFer to me, he'd be in the Jackson/Dean type if he does get in at some point. More like a HOVG player than HOF IMO. >>
I know its not the Hall of Stats but his sack total is very hard to ignore. Overall his stats compare very w/ Bruce Smith'sand Reggie White's production at the DE position. IMO Doleman was an elite pass rusher for the majority of his career. >>
This is Doleman's first time as a Finalist.
For me, he is a borderline type candidate. Dent and Haley still the clear cream of that pass rusher crop however, with Strahan jumping in next year. Doleman has a nice sack total and was a very good player and an elite pass rusher. He should get in someday. But at this point, there are other pass rushers who are more worthy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me...
<< <i>This is simply a fair and honest question by me...not intended to criticize anyone's opinions. That being said, why is Deion Sanders universally considered by everyone to be a slam dunk 100% lock? I'm of the opinion that he was more of a showman than anything else. Does everyone feel that this is a big contributing factor as to why he will be a lock going in? I realize the hard stats won't be there because teams avoided him, but he was below poor at tackling and was pretty much a bust after '94/'95, no?
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me... >>
I think Deion, Nnamdi and Champ Bailey are all considered elite, lockdown corners in their respective eras. However, Deion was also an elite kick/punt returner who changed football games from that position and also won rings which Nnamdi and Champ are lacking. With the 49ers/Cowboys rivalry in the early-to-mid 90s, one could argue that Deion's presence on the '94 49ers and the '95 Cowboys was a major reason each of those teams hoisted the Lombardi that year, having not been on the team the year before. If you haven't watched his piece on the NFL Network's top 100, do so. Hearing Michael Irvin present Deion's case should do it for you.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>This is simply a fair and honest question by me...not intended to criticize anyone's opinions. That being said, why is Deion Sanders universally considered by everyone to be a slam dunk 100% lock? I'm of the opinion that he was more of a showman than anything else. Does everyone feel that this is a big contributing factor as to why he will be a lock going in? I realize the hard stats won't be there because teams avoided him, but he was below poor at tackling and was pretty much a bust after '94/'95, no?
How much better of a cover guy was he than Nmandi on the Raiders...is Nmandi a lock HOF'er? Just a few thoughts by me... >>
Deion was voted the 3rd greatest DB in the history of the NFL (Top 100 Player of All-Time) by a quite solid panel of experts. Certainly guys who 99.99999% of the world would consider more expert than any of us on this message board. Only Ronnie Lott and Night train Lane were ranked higher...
If that isn't a LOCK 1st Ballot HOFer, no one else...
Deion is the ORIGINAL shut down corner...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I upgraded my 1948 LEAF BILL DUDLEY #36 last night.
If anyone wants my Dudley in a psa 5 for $40.00 shipped let me know.
There is a scan in my NFL HOF RCs set.
link
Also have a 1955 BOWMAN LEN FORD #14 in a psa 6 for $15.00 delivered.
The '48 Dudley is SOLD
The '55 Ford is SOLD
Thanks,
Tom
go to 0810 mark
go to 038 mark - one handed sack
Tom
Jasen, N-i-i-i-i-i-ce! ...and also true.
Hi gang. FIGHT4OLDDC here. Im sorry that I didn't answer all of your inquiries. As a few alluded to on here, I'm a bit overwhelmed with some major personal issues right now.
To simplify things a bit, I have decided to use MINT STATE as my exclusive partner to break up the collection. Please feel free to contact Rick directly and as we all know - he will be responsive, ethical and easy to work with as we proceed.
I have forwarded on most of your inquiries to him - but please contact him again so as to not lose an item you are seeking.
Other notable updates:
1. You all will soon learn of a significant sale. Arguably 5 of the top cards in the hobby have been sold. These are significant. The Bronko, the Starr, the Sport King Thorpe, the Jim Brown, the Unitas have been sold in a private unsolicited sale. What this means - is MY ENTIRE COLLECTION will be sold. I will not be keeping even one card. I am doing this for personal reasons but assure you all I will be back in the hobby one day soon (likely end of next year - 2012).
2. I have some duplicates for sale in the upcoming Memory Lane Auction - I think its his BIG GAME AUCTION THAT IS ALL FOOTBALL.
3. All cards are currently being sent to PSA for relabeling and grade review - they were sent in the past few days. The relabeling will read FIGHT4OLDDC COLLECTION (if you dont like this, I believe having it relabeled classically or otherwise is an easy process). This process should take approximately three weeks from now.
4. After the regrade/relabeling - Rick and I will set prices very shortly thereafter and each card will be available on a one by one set price basis. I anticipate this to occur shortly after the Super Bowl/President's Day Weekend.
So in summary, happy/sad to share the news. I have to get out completely. All inquiries should be directed to Rick at MINT STATE. He is my exclusive dealer at this time. If someone else contacts you, they arent being truthful at this time. THE BRONKO IS SOLD and it will set a new record for the hobby and I think folks on this board will be pleased.
Kind regards to all. Happy New Year and my sincerest apologies that I havent been more responsive. Im going through a lot right now and appreciate your patience. Jon
As many of us know cards are far from the most important things in life.
I have enjoyed watching him on the sidelines build the greatest set ever. He has even managed to buy a few table scraps from me over the years.
So when the smoke clears I do hope he comes back.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Name the Top 100 Rushers from 2010
<< <i>Well I for one wish Jon the very best of luck and wish him all the best.
As many of us know cards are far from the most important things in life.
I have enjoyed watching him on the sidelines build the greatest set ever. He has even managed to buy a few table scraps from me over the years.
So when the smoke clears I do hope he comes back. >>
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE KIND WORDS. This hobby was fun because of people like you and Jason, Andy, Marc and countless others. It represents my youth. My love of football. My time with my sons. History of the game I love. But again, in a world where we all have lots of stress and pressure, this hobby was fun because it is full of wonderful people that all shared a similar love and passion for what these pieces of cardboard represent. Dealing with like-minded people is what made this hobby such a wonderful escape for me. Thanks to each and every one of you. By definition, I started this with nothing and many of you made assembling this set possible. For that and all the emails and conversations - Thanks so much. I will be back once things settle down - but not in the same way as before...time to let some others enjoy these cards and pass me by one day. I guarantee that will happen. Regards, Jon
1. For those of you who do not want to wait for the broader process several weeks from now, Rick will entertain pre-emptive offers on any single card that is on your must-have list. In order to preempt the broader process, you must be at the very top and in many cases, beyond the range for what one would think a card would sell for. This was how the significant sale happened last week with the Nagurski, Unitas, Thorpe, Starr and Brown.
2. As I mentioned earlier, I did consign 10 duplicates to Memory Lane's Upcoming BIG GAME AUCTION. The list is as follows.
1. 1935 National Chicle #9 Knute Rockne PSA 8
2. 1948 Leaf #28 Whitey Wistert Rookie PSA 7
3. 1948 Bowman #36 Bulldog Turner PSA 8
4. 1950 Bowman #15 Tank Youger PSA 9
5. 1952 Bowman Large #127 Ollie Matson PSA 8
6. 1955 Topps All American #84 Ace Parker PSA 8
7. 1965 Philadelphia #41 Paul Warfield PSA 9
8. 1965 Philadelphia #105 Carl Eller PSA 9
9. 1965 Philadelphia #189 Paul Krause PSA 9
10. 1965 Philadelphia #195 Charley Taylor PSA 9
Please keep an eye out for these. If you have any questions, please direct your inquiries to Rick Snyder at MINT STATE. Otherwise, I am always available as well at jondisaacson@gmail.com
Kind regards and since the Skins stink - I have to say GO RAVENS.
Jon
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
that being said.....No way he belongs in the same category as "all time greatest rushers" IMO..
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I thought 10K was automatic as well. Not sure why they even sent out a poll.
that being said.....No way he belongs in the same category as "all time greatest rushers" IMO..
Dave >>
If Dunn, Lewis, and Barber were added after hitting the milestone I don't understand why Jones was rejected. I understand the argument against him but if 10,000 yards is the criteria for modern players then Jones should be included.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I thought 10K was automatic as well. Not sure why they even sent out a poll.
that being said.....No way he belongs in the same category as "all time greatest rushers" IMO..
Dave >>
Ditto, I voted no, I dont care how many yards he racks up he doesnt belong in the same set as Payton.
Good luck with your sales Jon, you missed a hell of a baseball game in Baltimore during the national.
<< <i>I was curious as to why Thomas Jones was rejected for the All Time Rushers Set?
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number. >>
Automatic anything stopped about a year to year and a half ago...It's all voting now..Someone can request Ty Cobb to be added to the rushers set and PSA will send out a poll...If the majority vote to add...Ty Cobb becomes an All-Time Rusher...As ridiculous as it sounds, that is PSA's version of customer service.
The Key Card sets (in general) have been ruined and are completely FUBAR IMO. We've been pretty lucky with the HOF sets so far. Most of them were created by those of us here in the thread/on the boards. If we can maintain or sanity we can keep the HOF rookie sets from being likewise destroyed.
Unfortunately all it takes is a couple of newbs with "bright ideas" though...Key Card sets went down the crapper in a matter of months...I chose to get out of them altogether so I wouldn't have to watch the fall from grace from the front row...Best of luck for those of you still fighting the good fight....
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Maybe I should just bite the bullet and start the HOF set since some of my cards will go in automatically. >>
That sounds like a great idea! THe more, the merrier...
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>As one of the guys fighting the good fight...Who, in your opinion, will be the next guy to be added to the rushers set? I am also curious as to who may be added to the recievers set....besides Ward (think I just got an email about adding him). Maybe I should just bite the bullet and start the HOF set since some of my cards will go in automatically. >>
yes you should. I sent the request in on Ward. I think he belongs in the set. For the All-Time Rushers I also voted no, as I agree with Publius on that issue. It would be like adding Kerry Collins to the All-Time Passers set. For future adds I can only see someone line Peterson getting in if he continues his course without hitting a wall. I think it should be limited to those truly dominant at the position. I think all the players in the set currently belong but we should be very particular on who we add.
On a side note, say Cortez Kennedy gets in, which card should we add for the HOF set? For the 90s team of the decade the Score Update is used, for the Future HOF it is the Action Packed - I am a much bigger fan of the Score Update (and that is the recognized rookie for Emmitt who has cards in both sets). Why would we not go with that one?
I don't see how Dunn gets in when Jones has had a very similar career. Also when was Hornung a dominant rusher?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>I was curious as to why Thomas Jones was rejected for the All Time Rushers Set?
I thought 10,000 yards was the automatic number. >>
Automatic anything stopped about a year to year and a half ago...It's all voting now..Someone can request Ty Cobb to be added to the rushers set and PSA will send out a poll...If the majority vote to add...Ty Cobb becomes an All-Time Rusher...As ridiculous as it sounds, that is PSA's version of customer service.
The Key Card sets (in general) have been ruined and are completely FUBAR IMO. We've been pretty lucky with the HOF sets so far. Most of them were created by those of us here in the thread/on the boards. If we can maintain or sanity we can keep the HOF rookie sets from being likewise destroyed.
Unfortunately all it takes is a couple of newbs with "bright ideas" though...Key Card sets went down the crapper in a matter of months...I chose to get out of them altogether so I wouldn't have to watch the fall from grace from the front row...Best of luck for those of you still fighting the good fight....
Jason >>
Thanks for the information, I thought the criteria for the set was the yardage mark. Just curious, why don't we have set criteria for modern players for the passing, rushing, receiving, and sack registry sets? Since these are Key Player sets rather than HOF Player sets I don't see why stats can't be used to determine the inclusion of modern players.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!