<< <i>Nice coin all right, but unless you're a vampire who was "made" by Nosferatu around 1761, this coin also does not qualify. Tonedbuff was pretty concise in his qualifications for this thread, but all we're getting are people insisting their coins qualify. His point is being missed. >>
And believe me, the point is NOT to knock toned coins, nor to push any conclusions about 'buyer beware, they may all be fakes'. NT and AT are not terms to define a scientific reality... but are terms to define market acceptance. We continue to answer the question in terms of science, proof, and many methods of authentification. But, even if you go with the finest pedigreed coins in the world (look at the Siam set) these coins were toned outside due to sitting in felt (correct me if I am wrong, but the chemicals in felt, be they sulfur or others, have long been known to have toned many of the truly old sets). That is not natural, is it? But it is market acceptible. So, the reality is we can PROVE NT from AT, not by science, not by pedigree. Only in a few small instances can we see the beginnings of interesting tone (who knows what my proof jefferson will look like in 100 years (I'll be dead, so I won't be around to prove it). I agree that there are patterns of toning that may be the most prominantly market acceptible patterns. And yet, outlyiers exist (my cobalt blue buff is an example of an outlyer, it is NT, but different. So, really, rather than looking at NT versus AT coins (which are often matters of our beliefs and opinions) we likely would benefit from focussing on market acceptible toning, which can be better 'proven' by how the upper end of coin collectors have spent their money. The combined knowledge of the coin collecting community is right in front of us on many auction archives. What is market acceptible is defined mostly by how collectors have spent their money, not by our opinions. Ebay is a toss out, anything including coins painted with acrylic sell there... So, at least in theory, would it not be a reasonable assumption to start with 'we can't prove much of it anyway' and then move onto simply looking at what is deemed market acceptible? I think this thread suited one purpose: we can't prove much about these coins. We can only conjecture, and bring out solidly held (and experienced backed in many cases) OPINIONS about them.
<< <i>Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them. >>
Maybe. But what else can we go by if we don't know the entire history of the coin? Some doctored coins look nice and original, and some original blast white coins are likely to be considered "dipped."
<< <i>Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them. >>
Maybe. But what else can we go by if we don't know the entire history of the coin? Some doctored coins look nice and original, and some original blast white coins are likely to be considered "dipped." >>
Consider a coin dated 1950. If someone stored a blast white silver coin in a drawer from 1950 until 2000, and then discovered it colorfully toned, is that NT?
What if the coin were stored in a way that preserved its whiteness? If I saw that coin in 2000 and left it in a similar environment until 2050 -- with the intent of producing a toner -- would that still be NT? I left it in a similar environment for the same amount of time!
If so, what if I accelerated the process to get it toned in 10 years. Still NT or AT?
Five years? One year? A few months?
What does a coin require to be NT? A certain amount of time to tone? A lack of *intent* to tone it? Certain "approved" storage environments?
One can call "market acceptable" meaningless, but until we can agree how to *define* NT -- AND have all but foolproof ways to detect toning that doesn't meet those definitions -- "market acceptable" may be weak but it might be the best we can work with.
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
>>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it. Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies? Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART. The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board. It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least)
Even saying I know its NT leaves us with the circular problem of 'what is NT' Never been answered to everyones satisfactin. That morgan looks great, is market acceptible, and I'd buy it! (so is therefore NT?)
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
>>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it. Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies? Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART. The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board. It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least) >>
No cheap shot meant when I agreed with Dragon, Tonedbuff. There are no stupid questions, and it is only through education that will help this problem go away. Morgannut2 puts it well.
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
>>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it. Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies? Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART. The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board. It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least) >>
No cheap shot meant when I agreed with Dragon, Tonedbuff. There are no stupid questions, and it is only through education that will help this problem go away. Morgannut2 puts it well. >>
Then we are making the same point, and perhaps my point is not clear enough. I am not questioning if people can distinguish NT from AT much of the time, or if education helps increase those odds. Yes some can, and yes it does. I am just trying to move a discussion away from those terms to see if there is anything that has more 'absolutes' involved and less 'maybe's' involved. I did not open the thread with an agenda, just wanted to push a good discussion and see where it went. Over time, the thread to me seemed to indicate (which is a general sense I've been getting) that the very loose definitions of AT and NT, combined with the lack of any real records or 'proofs' double up to kill the buyers ability to simply know for sure what is AT and NT. Some do better and some do worse, no question. I am comfortable finding NT buffalo's! But I am still sure I can be tricked. Positive of it. So, the dialog then moved to the use of market acceptance and how we can track that (using actual data in the market on specific coins to determine if a coins is market acceptible). For instance, multiples paid over retail, who buys it, the venue bought and sold on, etc. I don't think there is an answer here, but just another way to talk about toned coins. I, for one, don't think that NT and AT can sensibly be discussed in terms of the value of a coin. A coin put in a bag with sulfer today is AT because we know that will tone it... but coins stored in surfure filled wood cabinets, boxes, bags, envelopes etc from 100 years ago are wonderful NT because they did not know better??? A coin stored in an envelope for 30 years that goes deep rainbow is NT, but a coin stored in an envelope that strangely turns in a half year (it happens) is AT... Where is the logic? How does the average intelligent collector draw a line and say 'this coin is NT, and I know that for sure'. My nickel is just starting to turn. But, is it NT. I say so... but I never took it out of the drawer it was in... thinking something was working... so I hoped it would keep toning and it did. So, AT because I left it somewhere with intent to tone? Market acceptible...?? Other thoughts??? Anyone. It is an interesting topic, and the only way to break out of circular references is to get people talking until someone sees the problem from a new angle!
Another point since the phrase market acceptable is being brought up quite a bit. Which depending on how and when the phrase is used, I really don't like this term. Back to my point........ just because one KNOWS a coin to be NT, by owning it, know it's toning source etc. ....... that doesn't mean it's going to be "market acceptable." So it goes both way sometimes.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>Another point since the phrase market acceptable is being brought up quite a bit. Which depending on how and when the phrase is used, I really don't like this term. Back to my point........ just because one KNOWS a coin to be NT, by owning it, know it's toning source etc. ....... that doesn't mean it's going to be "market acceptable." So it goes both way sometimes. >>
Market acceptable is a bunch of who-ha, Who first coined this term. It means nothing. Nt is NT and thats it, It is real or fake, The fakes I have seen are all pretty obviously not Nt.
I know exactly where this coin was stored and the intent of the storing party. It may be unattractive to some and unvaluable to others, but I KNOW it is NT...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Tab toning is a great example of a type of toning I have not seen copied by the doctors... (I'm sure someone else has, but it seems rare). I keep hearing that NT is NT, but I get lost there. NT from Raymond Wayte albums is NT right? Even if you put the coins there on purpose to tone, even if it happens in 4 months, right? Okay, that is from sulfur in the paper. So, putting coins in sulferous paper is okay for NT. So, tissue paper and taco bell napkins is no different, right? NT. You can argue that the WR album was MADE for coins, so is okay for NT, but that seems like splitting hairs. It is a storage method that tones, so why would any other storage method that tones not be okay? I think there is a whole category of NT everyone agrees on, but if you work backwards from that to doctoring... there is a big, huge, gray space there that I don't know how to define. We all saw Lucy's nice half's toning in a WR album fairly quickly. NT all the way. But what about putting those coins for a year in a wooden cabinet? A napkin, etc. A year is good, but is a month? Why would it not be? I'm digging for the borders of the NT versus AT case. If they can't be found, then their is NO REASONABLE basis to talk about NT and AT.
Great pics of toning types, by the way, I love the album toned coins!
I think we can all agree that mint sets or proof sets that tone in thier original containers, and end rollers, are NT, as they are in storage that was created for the coins by the mint.
Tonedbuff asks: NT from Raymond Wayte albums is NT right? Even if you put the coins there on purpose to tone, even if it happens in 4 months, right?
The original storage method of storing coins were mint bags & Mint proof & mint set packaging. The Mint didn't issue or store coins in Wyatt Raymond holders, Kraft envelopes or Whitman folders; collectors did. Tradtional collector storage methods are natural but not original if you want to be hardcore purist about it.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i>Tonedbuff asks: NT from Raymond Wayte albums is NT right? Even if you put the coins there on purpose to tone, even if it happens in 4 months, right?
The original storage method of storing coins were mint bags & Mint proof & mint set packaging. The Mint didn't issue or store coins in Wyatt Raymond holders, Kraft envelopes or Whitman folders; collectors did. Tradtional collector storage methods are natural but not original if you want to be hardcore purist about it. >>
<<< I'm digging for the borders of the NT versus AT case. If they can't be found, then their is NO REASONABLE basis to talk about NT and AT. >>>
There are no scientific formulas, no fancy catch phrases, no decoder rings, no tarot cards, no chapters in the book of necrinomicon discussing AT vs. NT, and further discussion on the topic is pointless IMO. Like many things, it's simply a matter of many years of experience and eventually knowing what you're looking at.
Why is it pointless? If a question does not have a good answer, then discussion can only help the situation. Things are learned that way. I have found the threads on toning to be uniquely useful. One and all. I do enjoy seeing what people have to say about the boundaries between NT and AT. If your not interested, no problem!
<<<Correct, not original. But, considered NT.>>> But that helps to define the "borders you were digging for." Further discussion is NOT pointless because there is no logical reason a unknowledgable collector should have to wait years & years before he knows what he is looking at.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i><<<Correct, not original. But, considered NT.>>> But that helps to define the "borders you were digging for." Further discussion is NOT pointless because there is no logical reason a unknowledgable collector should have to wait years & years before he knows what he is looking at. >>
Ah, but isn't that how initiation to the club is supposed to work. You sit around and talk over shared pains and long spent suffering in the name of knowledge acquisition?
Anyhow, yes, the term is NT for natural toning, not OT for original toning. Toning from a mint source may be the most pure, but surely not the only NT. Toning introduced by normal (gonna have to go with the standard 'what a reasonable person would define normal as' thing here) storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases, or other ways a reasonable collector may chose to display or store their coins. Toning from those sources is NT... yes, even if you live in a humid area where it goes faster, as an example. Introduction of chemicals into that storage is not acceptible, nor directly applied heat. Speed of toning is not such an issue - though it is at the far end of reasonableness. A coin can tone in months at times, but can NOT naturally tone in minutes or days. Nor would putting a coin in any of the above situation cause toning in days or minutes, so it would seem to hold. There is the entire 'oddity' space for grandmas coins that she put in grandpa's small lock box with his handgun and ammunition and they toned up from the sulfer... But, even then, if a coin is stored and it tones without the direct inclusion of any chemical on the coin or for the purpose of effecting the coin, it would seem we have to consider this NT. Right?
Instead of a neat, binary decision, "either it's NT or it's AT period"
it is useful to think of a continuum, a "spectrum" if you will
ranging from pure NT (however one defines it, most likely, though, including mint bag, endroll, mint packaging, and circulation)
through the "gray area" of storage in albums, envelopes, etc (with subcategories that explore intent, length of time, environmental conditions, appearance of results, etc)
all the way to pure no-question-about-it AT, such as application of heat, chemicals, etc, that produces a funky looking result in a few seconds or minutes.
<< <i>Instead of a neat, binary decision, "either it's NT or it's AT period"
it is useful to think of a continuum, a "spectrum" if you will
ranging from pure NT (however one defines it, most likely, though, including mint bag, endroll, mint packaging, and circulation)
through the "gray area" of storage in albums, envelopes, etc (with subcategories that explore intent, length of time, environmental conditions, appearance of results, etc)
all the way to pure no-question-about-it AT, such as application of heat, chemicals, etc, that produces a funky looking result in a few seconds or minutes. >>
For the purposes of decision making, I could not agree more with your post. For the purposes of discussion, I am pushing for clear distinctions, just to see how possible that is. A bit esoteric, I admit, but maybe useful?
Ok, since you show a willingness to learn, rather than troll & flame by initiating this thread let a grumpy ole hardcore dealer bashing weenie coin hating collector add to your comments.
<<<Anyhow, yes, the term is NT for natural toning, not OT for original toning. Toning from a mint source may be the most pure, but surely not the only NT. Toning introduced by normal (gonna have to go with the standard 'what a reasonable person would define normal as' thing here) storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases, or other ways a reasonable collector may chose to display or store their coins. Toning from those sources is NT>>>
You're getting it. Before long you'll be hanging out with stman & I. All OT is NT but not all NT is OT. If it's neither then it's AT. Once you figure out what's what, then you can easily figure out what aint. <<<storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases>> and Mint bags, holders, tubes, sets etc are natural numismatically accepted ways to store & display coins, thus collectors & grading services have no problem with calling this tone real, natural, original or whatever. <<<grandpa's small lock box with his handgun and ammunition and they toned up from the sulfer...>>> and in ziplock bags with onion slices and matchheads, or on top of your water heater, or in the stomach of a goat (ahhh...the gray area between NT & AT) are not a numismatically accepted ways to store & display coins but if they tone & the end product looks somewhat similiar to familiar & accepted original & natural tone then it is Market Acceptable and the graders slab it. If it doesn't meet the above 2 critera then it's AT. Pretty simple huh?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Clear as mud really Actually, it is clear, and yes, I am here to learn (and have fun doing it). I appreciate all thoughts on these matters. I have developed a 'feel' for toned buffalo's, but was far more interested in figuring out what 'methods' and 'indicators' others have developed. Funny, but my first desire was just to see how limited the selection of 'provable' toners would be. Then it sort of morphed into definitions... and finally we ended up determining that the goal was 3 fold: ID no brainer NT. ID no brainer AT. Create some ideas and terminology where the boundaries are with some ideas about determining which side of the fence things fall on. Knowing WHAT NT and AT are seems straight forward (even more so for me now). The market acceptibility (yeah, I know many hate that term) of the border cases seems to be where only experience can push on past the problem. And even then, perhaps even the best will be fooled every once and again. That's it. That's about as far as I can take this inquiry at this point without just being difficult and stubborn. I appreciate you guys sticking with me on this topic and keeping information flowing. What a great hobby!
Here's 1 that is "real." I actually don't know for a 100% fact that it is real because I didn't actually put it in & take it out of the album myself but the guy I got it from, rainbowmorgans, can vouch that it was rev side up in an album since the 1920's or so.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I only have one old album toned morgan - I believe this would be from an album?? and would this one (one of my few other morgans) be bag toned? and this would be 'paint by numbers toning'
I don't collect Morgans anymore..... this is in a Redfield holder and one of the more attractive ones to be found IMO. It's what some call target toning.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>I don't collect Morgans anymore..... this is in a Redfield holder and one of the more attractive ones to be found IMO. It's what some call target toning. >>
Is target toning specific to folders that the coin only touches the paper around its edges (with plastic protectors to both sides)?
By the way, I am familiar with target toning, and it is the most common form of toning I find on my buffs... but have not commonly seen it in my limited experience with morgans...
Actually target toning is kinda tough to find on Morgans. Here is something I put together a few years ago and gave to a special little girl in my life. For your viewing enjoyment. Some are scans. And yes, most were cracked out of holders as well.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Comments
<< <i>Nice coin all right, but unless you're a vampire who was "made" by Nosferatu around 1761, this coin also does not qualify. Tonedbuff was pretty concise in his qualifications for this thread, but all we're getting are people insisting their coins qualify. His point is being missed. >>
Yep.
NT and AT are not terms to define a scientific reality... but are terms to define market acceptance. We continue to answer the question in terms of science, proof, and many methods of authentification. But, even if you go with the finest pedigreed coins in the world (look at the Siam set) these coins were toned outside due to sitting in felt (correct me if I am wrong, but the chemicals in felt, be they sulfur or others, have long been known to have toned many of the truly old sets). That is not natural, is it? But it is market acceptible. So, the reality is we can PROVE NT from AT, not by science, not by pedigree. Only in a few small instances can we see the beginnings of interesting tone (who knows what my proof jefferson will look like in 100 years (I'll be dead, so I won't be around to prove it).
I agree that there are patterns of toning that may be the most prominantly market acceptible patterns. And yet, outlyiers exist (my cobalt blue buff is an example of an outlyer, it is NT, but different.
So, really, rather than looking at NT versus AT coins (which are often matters of our beliefs and opinions) we likely would benefit from focussing on market acceptible toning, which can be better 'proven' by how the upper end of coin collectors have spent their money. The combined knowledge of the coin collecting community is right in front of us on many auction archives. What is market acceptible is defined mostly by how collectors have spent their money, not by our opinions. Ebay is a toss out, anything including coins painted with acrylic sell there...
So, at least in theory, would it not be a reasonable assumption to start with 'we can't prove much of it anyway' and then move onto simply looking at what is deemed market acceptible?
I think this thread suited one purpose: we can't prove much about these coins. We can only conjecture, and bring out solidly held (and experienced backed in many cases) OPINIONS about them.
Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them.
<< <i><<< but are terms to define market acceptance >>>
Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them. >>
and NT and AT are more clear?
How?
<< <i>Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them. >>
Maybe. But what else can we go by if we don't know the entire history of the coin? Some doctored coins look nice and original, and some original blast white coins are likely to be considered "dipped."
<< <i>
<< <i>Market acceptance is a vague and pointless term that was made up by those who don't know what they're looking at but think it looks ok to them. >>
Maybe. But what else can we go by if we don't know the entire history of the coin? Some doctored coins look nice and original, and some original blast white coins are likely to be considered "dipped." >>
How? >>>
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear.
<< <i><<< and NT and AT are more clear?
How? >>>
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
Consider a coin dated 1950. If someone stored a blast white silver coin in a drawer from 1950 until 2000, and then discovered it colorfully toned, is that NT?
What if the coin were stored in a way that preserved its whiteness? If I saw that coin in 2000 and left it in a similar environment until 2050 -- with the intent of producing a toner -- would that still be NT? I left it in a similar environment for the same amount of time!
If so, what if I accelerated the process to get it toned in 10 years. Still NT or AT?
Five years? One year? A few months?
What does a coin require to be NT? A certain amount of time to tone? A lack of *intent* to tone it? Certain "approved" storage environments?
One can call "market acceptable" meaningless, but until we can agree how to *define* NT -- AND have all but foolproof ways to detect toning that doesn't meet those definitions -- "market acceptable" may be weak but it might be the best we can work with.
<< <i>
<< <i><<< and NT and AT are more clear?
How? >>>
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it.
Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies?
Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART.
The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board.
It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least)
confuses reasonable certainty verses reasonable doubt. The difference is important.
For example: I recently sold a MS63 GSA Morgan worth $700 in PCGS plastic for $2530, in GSA plastic.
The price premium was it's "market accepableness"-
That's different from my reasonable certainty the toning was totally NT---having bought it from the Government.
<< <i>
Now, I don't KNOW this is NT, but it sure looks natural to me!
-Amanda >>
I know its NT
That morgan looks great, is market acceptible, and I'd buy it! (so is therefore NT?)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><<< and NT and AT are more clear?
How? >>>
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it.
Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies?
Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART.
The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board.
It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least)
No cheap shot meant when I agreed with Dragon, Tonedbuff. There are no stupid questions, and it is only through education that will help this problem go away. Morgannut2 puts it well.
CONECA #N-3446
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><<< and NT and AT are more clear?
How? >>>
Somewhat more clear to some then others maybe, but if you have to ask, then it isn't clear. >>
I think that's an easy answer, and a cheap shot all in one. I do my homework like anyone else. I am not asking the question because I am too ignorant to buy my own coins, but to open up dialog about the issue and see if there are other ways to look at it.
Your answer would indicate that there is a level of expertise where it is all black and white. I don't buy it! Doctored coins go into major TPG holders all the time. Are they rookies?
Asking is SMART, inability to ask is NOT SMART.
The answer 'if you have to ask, then it isn't clear' sounds really arrogant. I don't know if that is what you intended, but look at the top members of this board that have been fooled by AT coins! Look at respected members that have made, and sold AT coins... to the surprise of the board.
It is not a simple question only asked by the stupid. It is a relevant question and I believe that market acceptible is the more proper way to talk about toned coins.
Have you seen some of the AT coins in holders Russ has posted? Not crummy jobs any novice would catch... quite to the contrary, they look market acceptible and fooled many people. So have many other coins, and so will many other coins.
We need a better way to talked about toned coins rather than NT and AT (or those of us in the ignorant masses do, at least)
No cheap shot meant when I agreed with Dragon, Tonedbuff. There are no stupid questions, and it is only through education that will help this problem go away. Morgannut2 puts it well. >>
Then we are making the same point, and perhaps my point is not clear enough. I am not questioning if people can distinguish NT from AT much of the time, or if education helps increase those odds.
Yes some can, and yes it does.
I am just trying to move a discussion away from those terms to see if there is anything that has more 'absolutes' involved and less 'maybe's' involved. I did not open the thread with an agenda, just wanted to push a good discussion and see where it went. Over time, the thread to me seemed to indicate (which is a general sense I've been getting) that the very loose definitions of AT and NT, combined with the lack of any real records or 'proofs' double up to kill the buyers ability to simply know for sure what is AT and NT. Some do better and some do worse, no question. I am comfortable finding NT buffalo's! But I am still sure I can be tricked. Positive of it.
So, the dialog then moved to the use of market acceptance and how we can track that (using actual data in the market on specific coins to determine if a coins is market acceptible). For instance, multiples paid over retail, who buys it, the venue bought and sold on, etc.
I don't think there is an answer here, but just another way to talk about toned coins. I, for one, don't think that NT and AT can sensibly be discussed in terms of the value of a coin. A coin put in a bag with sulfer today is AT because we know that will tone it... but coins stored in surfure filled wood cabinets, boxes, bags, envelopes etc from 100 years ago are wonderful NT because they did not know better??? A coin stored in an envelope for 30 years that goes deep rainbow is NT, but a coin stored in an envelope that strangely turns in a half year (it happens) is AT...
Where is the logic? How does the average intelligent collector draw a line and say 'this coin is NT, and I know that for sure'.
My nickel is just starting to turn. But, is it NT. I say so... but I never took it out of the drawer it was in... thinking something was working... so I hoped it would keep toning and it did. So, AT because I left it somewhere with intent to tone?
Market acceptible...??
Other thoughts???
Anyone.
It is an interesting topic, and the only way to break out of circular references is to get people talking until someone sees the problem from a new angle!
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Capital Plastic Holder with Cardboard Insert Toning
Endroll toning
<< <i>Another point since the phrase market acceptable is being brought up quite a bit. Which depending on how and when the phrase is used, I really don't like this term. Back to my point........ just because one KNOWS a coin to be NT, by owning it, know it's toning source etc. ....... that doesn't mean it's going to be "market acceptable." So it goes both way sometimes. >>
Market acceptable is a bunch of who-ha, Who first coined this term. It means nothing. Nt is NT and thats it, It is real or fake, The fakes I have seen are all pretty obviously not Nt.
I know exactly where this coin was stored and the intent of the storing party. It may be unattractive to some and unvaluable to others, but I KNOW it is NT...Mike
I keep hearing that NT is NT, but I get lost there.
NT from Raymond Wayte albums is NT right? Even if you put the coins there on purpose to tone, even if it happens in 4 months, right?
Okay, that is from sulfur in the paper. So, putting coins in sulferous paper is okay for NT. So, tissue paper and taco bell napkins is no different, right? NT.
You can argue that the WR album was MADE for coins, so is okay for NT, but that seems like splitting hairs. It is a storage method that tones, so why would any other storage method that tones not be okay? I think there is a whole category of NT everyone agrees on, but if you work backwards from that to doctoring... there is a big, huge, gray space there that I don't know how to define.
We all saw Lucy's nice half's toning in a WR album fairly quickly. NT all the way. But what about putting those coins for a year in a wooden cabinet? A napkin, etc. A year is good, but is a month? Why would it not be?
I'm digging for the borders of the NT versus AT case. If they can't be found, then their is NO REASONABLE basis to talk about NT and AT.
Great pics of toning types, by the way, I love the album toned coins!
I think we can all agree that mint sets or proof sets that tone in thier original containers, and end rollers, are NT, as they are in storage that was created for the coins by the mint.
The original storage method of storing coins were mint bags & Mint proof & mint set packaging.
The Mint didn't issue or store coins in Wyatt Raymond holders, Kraft envelopes or Whitman folders; collectors did. Tradtional collector storage methods are natural but not original if you want to be hardcore purist about it.
<< <i>Tonedbuff asks: NT from Raymond Wayte albums is NT right? Even if you put the coins there on purpose to tone, even if it happens in 4 months, right?
The original storage method of storing coins were mint bags & Mint proof & mint set packaging.
The Mint didn't issue or store coins in Wyatt Raymond holders, Kraft envelopes or Whitman folders; collectors did. Tradtional collector storage methods are natural but not original if you want to be hardcore purist about it. >>
Correct, not original. But, considered NT.
There are no scientific formulas, no fancy catch phrases, no decoder rings, no tarot cards, no chapters in the book of necrinomicon discussing AT vs. NT, and further discussion on the topic is pointless IMO. Like many things, it's simply a matter of many years of experience and eventually knowing what you're looking at.
If your not interested, no problem!
But that helps to define the "borders you were digging for."
Further discussion is NOT pointless because there is no logical reason a unknowledgable collector should have to wait years & years before he knows what he is looking at.
<< <i><<<Correct, not original. But, considered NT.>>>
But that helps to define the "borders you were digging for."
Further discussion is NOT pointless because there is no logical reason a unknowledgable collector should have to wait years & years before he knows what he is looking at. >>
Ah, but isn't that how initiation to the club is supposed to work. You sit around and talk over shared pains and long spent suffering in the name of knowledge acquisition?
Anyhow, yes, the term is NT for natural toning, not OT for original toning. Toning from a mint source may be the most pure, but surely not the only NT. Toning introduced by normal (gonna have to go with the standard 'what a reasonable person would define normal as' thing here) storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases, or other ways a reasonable collector may chose to display or store their coins. Toning from those sources is NT... yes, even if you live in a humid area where it goes faster, as an example. Introduction of chemicals into that storage is not acceptible, nor directly applied heat. Speed of toning is not such an issue - though it is at the far end of reasonableness. A coin can tone in months at times, but can NOT naturally tone in minutes or days. Nor would putting a coin in any of the above situation cause toning in days or minutes, so it would seem to hold.
There is the entire 'oddity' space for grandmas coins that she put in grandpa's small lock box with his handgun and ammunition and they toned up from the sulfer...
But, even then, if a coin is stored and it tones without the direct inclusion of any chemical on the coin or for the purpose of effecting the coin, it would seem we have to consider this NT.
Right?
it is useful to think of a continuum, a "spectrum" if you will
ranging from pure NT (however one defines it, most likely, though, including mint bag, endroll, mint packaging, and circulation)
through the "gray area" of storage in albums, envelopes, etc (with subcategories that explore intent, length of time, environmental conditions, appearance of results, etc)
all the way to pure no-question-about-it AT, such as application of heat, chemicals, etc, that produces a funky looking result in a few seconds or minutes.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Instead of a neat, binary decision, "either it's NT or it's AT period"
it is useful to think of a continuum, a "spectrum" if you will
ranging from pure NT (however one defines it, most likely, though, including mint bag, endroll, mint packaging, and circulation)
through the "gray area" of storage in albums, envelopes, etc (with subcategories that explore intent, length of time, environmental conditions, appearance of results, etc)
all the way to pure no-question-about-it AT, such as application of heat, chemicals, etc, that produces a funky looking result in a few seconds or minutes. >>
For the purposes of decision making, I could not agree more with your post.
For the purposes of discussion, I am pushing for clear distinctions, just to see how possible that is. A bit esoteric, I admit, but maybe useful?
<<<Anyhow, yes, the term is NT for natural toning, not OT for original toning. Toning from a mint source may be the most pure, but surely not the only NT. Toning introduced by normal (gonna have to go with the standard 'what a reasonable person would define normal as' thing here) storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases, or other ways a reasonable collector may chose to display or store their coins. Toning from those sources is NT>>>
You're getting it. Before long you'll be hanging out with stman & I.
All OT is NT but not all NT is OT. If it's neither then it's AT. Once you figure out what's what, then you can easily figure out what aint.
<<<storage methods, which would include coin albums and boards, storage cabinets, display cases>> and Mint bags, holders, tubes, sets etc are natural numismatically accepted ways to store & display coins, thus collectors & grading services have no problem with calling this tone real, natural, original or whatever.
<<<grandpa's small lock box with his handgun and ammunition and they toned up from the sulfer...>>>
and in ziplock bags with onion slices and matchheads, or on top of your water heater, or in the stomach of a goat (ahhh...the gray area between NT & AT) are not a numismatically accepted ways to store & display coins but if they tone & the end product looks somewhat similiar to familiar & accepted original & natural tone then it is Market Acceptable and the graders slab it.
If it doesn't meet the above 2 critera then it's AT.
Pretty simple huh?
Actually, it is clear, and yes, I am here to learn (and have fun doing it). I appreciate all thoughts on these matters. I have developed a 'feel' for toned buffalo's, but was far more interested in figuring out what 'methods' and 'indicators' others have developed.
Funny, but my first desire was just to see how limited the selection of 'provable' toners would be.
Then it sort of morphed into definitions...
and finally we ended up determining that the goal was 3 fold: ID no brainer NT. ID no brainer AT. Create some ideas and terminology where the boundaries are with some ideas about determining which side of the fence things fall on.
Knowing WHAT NT and AT are seems straight forward (even more so for me now). The market acceptibility (yeah, I know many hate that term) of the border cases seems to be where only experience can push on past the problem. And even then, perhaps even the best will be fooled every once and again.
That's it. That's about as far as I can take this inquiry at this point without just being difficult and stubborn.
I appreciate you guys sticking with me on this topic and keeping information flowing.
What a great hobby!
and would this one (one of my few other morgans) be bag toned?
and this would be 'paint by numbers toning'
Right?
<< <i>Here is one source of toning not discussed. What ya gonna call it?
dunno... but do tell!
Based on my limited experience with morgans, I'd be nervous about that one.
<< <i>I don't collect Morgans anymore..... this is in a Redfield holder and one of the more attractive ones to be found IMO. It's what some call target toning. >>
Is target toning specific to folders that the coin only touches the paper around its edges (with plastic protectors to both sides)?
For your viewing enjoyment. Some are scans. And yes, most were cracked out of holders as well.
Thanks for sharing! By the way, is the monocromatic generally caused by albums?
Edit to add, of course I can't prove any of this.